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BigBamBoo
10-22-2009, 4:38 PM
.............

Theseus
10-22-2009, 4:56 PM
I don't see this as anything to be concerned with directly. It doesn't seem to do anything but give the governments power to help prevent spread of disease.

As long as the scope stays as stated and isn't used to prevent the spread of common and mundane colds or something. . .

SickofSoCal
10-22-2009, 4:58 PM
Big Phama using the force of "Law" to make billions......

GrizzlyGuy
10-22-2009, 4:58 PM
I'm not aware of any CA laws like those, but here is Arnold's related proclamation (like an executive order):

http://gov.ca.gov/proclamation/12148/

Kid Stanislaus
10-22-2009, 5:13 PM
I don't see this as anything to be concerned with directly. It doesn't seem to do anything but give the governments power to help prevent spread of disease.

Broad, sweeping provisions are BOUND to be misused by government.

dustoff31
10-22-2009, 5:28 PM
I would be surprised is CA did NOT have something like this on the books.

They do. All states have laws for the protection of public health and checking the spread of contagious disease.

Here are some of CA's laws on the subject:

CA HEALTH AND SAFETY CODE

101029. The sheriff of each county, or city and county, may enforce within the county, or the city and county, all orders of the local health officer issued for the purpose of preventing the spread of any contagious, infectious, or communicable disease. Every peace officer of every political subdivision of the county, or city and county, may enforce within the area subject to his or her jurisdiction all orders of the local health officer issued for the purpose of preventing the spread of any contagious, infectious, or communicable disease. This section is not a limitation on the authority of peace officers or public officers to enforce orders of the local health officer. When deciding whether to request this assistance in enforcement of its orders, the local health officer may consider whether it would be necessary to advise the enforcement agency of any measures that should be taken to prevent infection of the enforcement officers.

101030. The county health officer shall enforce and observe in the unincorporated territory of the county, all of the following:
(a) Orders and ordinances of the board of supervisors, pertaining to the public health and sanitary matters.
(b) Orders, including quarantine and other regulations, prescribed by the department.
(c) Statutes relating to public health.

120176. During an outbreak of communicable disease, or upon the imminent and proximate threat of communicable disease outbreak or epidemic that threatens the public's health, all health care providers, clinics, health care service plans, pharmacies, their suppliers, distributors, and other for-profit and nonprofit entities shall, upon request of the local health officer, disclose to the local health officer inventories of, critical medical supplies, equipment, pharmaceuticals, vaccines, or other products that may be used for the prevention of, or may be implicated in the transmission of communicable disease. The local health officer shall keep this proprietary information confidential.

120195. Each health officer shall enforce all orders, rules, and regulations concerning quarantine or isolation prescribed or directed by the department.

120200. Each health officer, whenever required by the department, shall establish and maintain places of quarantine or isolation that shall be subject to the special directions of the department.

120210. Whenever in the judgment of the department it is necessary for the protection or preservation of the public health, each health officer shall, when directed by the department, do the following:
(a) Quarantine or isolate and disinfect persons, animals, houses or rooms, in accordance with general and specific instructions of the department.
(b) Destroy bedding, carpets, household goods, furnishings, materials, clothing, or animals, when ordinary means of disinfection are considered unsafe, and when the property is, in the judgment of the department, an imminent menace to the public health. When the property is destroyed pursuant to this section, the governing body of the locality where the destruction occurs may make adequate provision for compensation in proper cases for those injured thereby.

120215. Upon receiving information of the existence of contagious, infectious, or communicable disease for which the department may from time to time declare the need for strict isolation or quarantine,
each health officer shall:
(a) Ensure the adequate isolation of each case, and appropriate quarantine of the contacts and premises.
(b) Follow local rules and regulations, and all general and special rules, regulations, and orders of the department, in carrying out the quarantine or isolation.

120220. When quarantine or isolation, either strict or modified, is established by a health officer, all persons shall obey his or her rules, orders, and regulations.

120225. A person subject to quarantine or strict isolation, residing or in a quarantined building, house, structure, or other shelter, shall not go beyond the lot where the building, house, structure, or other shelter is situated, nor put himself or herself in immediate communication with any person not subject to quarantine, other than the physician, the health officer or persons authorized by the health officer.

JDoe
10-22-2009, 6:00 PM
What is the problem? How are peoples rights fading? :confused:

cackinthebox
10-22-2009, 6:10 PM
:TFH:

BigBamBoo
10-22-2009, 6:28 PM
...............

GuyW
10-22-2009, 6:30 PM
H1N1 virus scare is bogus anyway. The gov should not be allowed to get away with this...
.

pullnshoot25
10-22-2009, 6:51 PM
My friend and I talked about H1N1 the other night. He has a background in epidemiology and is of the opinion that the virus is man made.

Evidence to support this hypothesis...

1) It is 4 viruses in 1. That is statistically impossible to accomplish.
2) It does not spiral outwards. It is only little patches here and there around the globe, never following the tell-tale spiral. That is NOT an epidemic.

His theory (and no, my friend is not a tinfoil hat kind of guy) is that the gov't is getting some people sick to scare/force others to take the vaccine, which will make people even more sick and/or dead. This theory isn't improbable considering air trails, etc.

I still have more research to do (right after my physiology midterm!()

JDoe
10-22-2009, 6:52 PM
Well I guess I found it a little disturbing that a "health inspector" type person can basically quarantine a person,house,or city just because you refuse to get a shot. And that LEO under that Bill can force you to submit to "treatment",etc., and can enter your house with no search warrant or probable cause.

So I guess if your good with it no problem....but then I guess you should just go along with gun control if they deem that in the best interest of public health and safety, yes?

Take care,Stan

Stan. Thank you for the explanation. What would you do if you could control public health policy?

Telperion
10-22-2009, 6:56 PM
Well I guess I found it a little disturbing that a "health inspector" type person can basically quarantine a person,house,or city just because you refuse to get a shot. And that LEO under that Bill can force you to submit to "treatment",etc., and can enter your house with no search warrant or probable cause.

So I guess if your good with it no problem....but then I guess you should just go along with gun control if they deem that in the best interest of public health and safety, yes?

Take care,Stan
The notion of involuntary quarantine is like, centuries old. People can usually be isolated on the judgment of health officer (see the California code above), so the language in the Mass bill about people who refuse vaccinations looks superfluous.

BigBamBoo
10-22-2009, 7:09 PM
............

Theseus
10-22-2009, 10:15 PM
We aren't really talking about a common cold situation. I am sure that many here would agree that if your neighbor had only a flu and they were hauled off and quarantined we would say something.

I don't believe that if there is a highly contagious viral outbreak with a 50% mortality rate we would be willing to take the chances with our families to trust the general public to help keep our family safe.

I mean. . . how many of you go to work when you are sick knowing that you are likely to get someone else sick as well?

Hi Jdoe.
Well thankfully I do not have that responsibility...cause to be really honest....I have no idea.

That being said...I find it very amusing that most people will pick and choose what personal rights they will "allow" or aqueous to be violated. Most folks here are the "only if you pry it from my cold dead hand" when it comes to their gun rights.

But if they think their neighbor has the flu....then haul the whole family off....and they are cool with that. It's like anything else....and I am not excluding myself from this....if it does not directly effect you...then who cares? Right?

I am very anti organized health care...or pretty much any kind of organized anything....that wants to tell me how I have to live my life. I took my daughter out of public schools at the age of 11 because I refused to have her vaccinated and the school told me if she did not get the shots they would not allow he in school. She is now 21...and guess what? She has maybe had a cold 2-3 times in the last 10 years.
Same for my son. I have had him in charter school for the same reason.

Again....I am not bashing anyone who likes and believes in the "miracles" of modern medicine. I just find it scary when the gov. can just force things on you for "your own good" or enter your house, tell you how to raise your kids,etc. I am all for less gov.

Take care,Stan

elSquid
10-23-2009, 1:07 AM
My friend and I talked about H1N1 the other night. He has a background in epidemiology and is of the opinion that the virus is man made.

Evidence to support this hypothesis...

1) It is 4 viruses in 1. That is statistically impossible to accomplish.
2) It does not spiral outwards. It is only little patches here and there around the globe, never following the tell-tale spiral. That is NOT an epidemic.


Wasn't the 1918 Spanish flu due to H1N1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1918_flu_pandemic)?

-- Michael

Dirk Tungsten
10-23-2009, 8:09 AM
His theory (and no, my friend is not a tinfoil hat kind of guy) is that the gov't is getting some people sick to scare/force others to take the vaccine, which will make people even more sick and/or dead. This theory isn't improbable considering air trails, etc.




Seriously? What evidence does your friend have to support this? Are you referring to chem trails when you say "air trails" ? :rolleyes:

There's a whole lot of reactionary BS in this thread that needs to be substantiated. MY RIGHTS. Yeah, we know about your rights, buddy, but you know what? None of you have the right to be a vector for contagious disease. The idea that you can is wholly irresponsible and juvenile.

Also, you anti-vax people are idiots, period. There is no REAL science showing vaccines cause autism, AIDS, sids or anything else.

GuyW
10-23-2009, 9:57 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1z7KSEnyxw

.

BigBamBoo
10-23-2009, 10:22 AM
..............

dantodd
10-23-2009, 10:28 AM
Also, you anti-vax people are idiots, period. There is no REAL science showing vaccines cause autism, AIDS, sids or anything else.

Well your welcome to your opinion...and my opinion is that people who run to the doctor to get a pill or a shot every time they sneeze are idiots.

What do you know, you're both right.

I don't believe that if there is a highly contagious viral outbreak with a 50% mortality rate we would be willing to take the chances with our families to trust the general public to help keep our family safe.

Do you have ANY evidence to support this mortality rate claim?

Theseus
10-23-2009, 11:18 AM
Just because there isn't science that shows vaccines cause autism it could be argued that there is no REAL science that says it doesn't or can't.

Just because you might be comfortable with putting your full faith in the science, others may not be, and that does not make them idiots. Raise a disabled child and witness the strains it puts on families emotionally and financially.

They are rational people looking at the information they have and making a rational decision, even if you don't agree with it.

Seriously? What evidence does your friend have to support this? Are you referring to chem trails when you say "air trails" ? :rolleyes:

There's a whole lot of reactionary BS in this thread that needs to be substantiated. MY RIGHTS. Yeah, we know about your rights, buddy, but you know what? None of you have the right to be a vector for contagious disease. The idea that you can is wholly irresponsible and juvenile.

Also, you anti-vax people are idiots, period. There is no REAL science showing vaccines cause autism, AIDS, sids or anything else.

dantodd
10-23-2009, 11:34 AM
Just because there isn't science that shows vaccines cause autism it could be argued that there is no REAL science that says it doesn't or can't.

You would be right if there were simply no studies done to look into the issue. The problem is that there have been studies and they show no correlation. There are some questions with certain mercury containing vaccines but the issues that may be correlated are not autism.


Just because you might be comfortable with putting your full faith in the science, others may not be, and that does not make them idiots. Raise a disabled child and witness the strains it puts on families emotionally and financially.

They are rational people looking at the information they have and making a rational decision, even if you don't agree with it.

Actually, it is usually someone looking for anything to blame for their misfortune other than random chance. Often people are unable to cope with raising a disabled child and it also engenders a lot of self-blame. To alleviate these feelings people look for any possible cause, even irrational ones such a vaccines or "chem trails."

There may be other reasons to not want your kids vaccinated and some may be completely rational, even if against the good of public health. But the fear of autism is irrational.

Dirk Tungsten
10-23-2009, 12:43 PM
Just because there isn't science that shows vaccines cause autism it could be argued that there is no REAL science that says it doesn't or can't.


Nah, science is starting to show that it' genetically linked (PDF Warning):

http://www.autismresearchcentre.com/docs/papers/2009_Chakrabarti_etal_AutismRes_GenesRelated.pdf

jdberger
10-23-2009, 12:58 PM
Also, you anti-vax people are idiots, period. There is no REAL science showing vaccines cause autism, AIDS, sids or anything else.

Not only that, but anti-vax folks contribute to the resurgence of diseases previously thought eradicated.

Measles and polio for example.

Neither of these diseases are a joke. I've seen the effects on family members.

Rights to privacy don't equate to the rights to endanger your communities. Refusal to vaccinate is essentially saying that you have a right to take a dump in a river that people downstream uses for drinking water.

Further, vaccination requirements don't correlate to "gun control" at all. Refusal to vaccinate is

Theseus
10-23-2009, 1:53 PM
I don't know this specific issue so much and don't feel one way or the other, but I don't consider it irrational.

There is a concern that one thing might be an associated cause, and the only argument I have heard from the other side is merely there is no evidence to support the theory and that the vaccines help more than they hurt.

This still doesn't strike me as irrational. Now, not wanting to take vaccines because you think God will heal you, to me is irrational.

You would be right if there were simply no studies done to look into the issue. The problem is that there have been studies and they show no correlation. There are some questions with certain mercury containing vaccines but the issues that may be correlated are not autism.




Actually, it is usually someone looking for anything to blame for their misfortune other than random chance. Often people are unable to cope with raising a disabled child and it also engenders a lot of self-blame. To alleviate these feelings people look for any possible cause, even irrational ones such a vaccines or "chem trails."

There may be other reasons to not want your kids vaccinated and some may be completely rational, even if against the good of public health. But the fear of autism is irrational.

Alan Block
10-23-2009, 4:54 PM
We screen immigrants for it and quarentine those with TB symptoms until treatment. The resurgence in TB has forced health officials to quarentine families and do extensive testing in schools where it is found. There were all kinds of nasty viral diseases brought into the tenements and slums of this country 100 years ago. Polio, TB, Typhus, Pertusis, Cholera. Vaccines erradicated most of these diseases.

a1c
10-23-2009, 5:21 PM
Nah, science is starting to show that it' genetically linked (PDF Warning):

http://www.autismresearchcentre.com/docs/papers/2009_Chakrabarti_etal_AutismRes_GenesRelated.pdf

There is nothing in that paper showing any link to vaccines.

BTW, the Autism Research Center however features another piece by autism expert Simon Baron-Cohen that in fact goes against your beliefs. Here is a quote:

I work in one of those sensitive areas of research, autism, in which the facts are liable to be misreported or – sometimes worse – misinterpreted. Our problems go back to 1998 with a report in The Lancet by Andrew Wakefield and his colleagues of what appeared to them to be a link between autism and the MMR vaccine. Subsequent research failed to support this association, so given the huge potential risk to public health in raising parents’ anxieties about the safety of the MMR vaccine – plus the fact that with hindsight most people thought the media had got it very wrong – I had expected responsible journalists would be reluctant to give the MMR/autism story much further coverage. I was wrong. The media kept the story alive, despite the fact that evidence supporting it was tenuous at best, or even downright contradictory.

The link with vaccines was a hypothesis that turned out to be a dead end. By the time however it was brought up, it was too late, and the mainstream media ate that story up. Parents with feelings of guilt - which are all too often associated with autistic children - were quick to adopt that theory, which allowed them to blame someone else - even though they had nothing to feel guilty about in the first place. Since then it's grown into a grassroots movement that is not supported by any scientific evidence.

bodger
10-23-2009, 5:29 PM
We screen immigrants for it and quarentine those with TB symptoms until treatment. The resurgence in TB has forced health officials to quarentine families and do extensive testing in schools where it is found. There were all kinds of nasty viral diseases brought into the tenements and slums of this country 100 years ago. Polio, TB, Typhus, Pertusis, Cholera. Vaccines erradicated most of these diseases.


Another reason to lock the border up good and tight. Those illegals coming in aren't being screened for a damn thing.

GuyW
10-23-2009, 6:46 PM
Parents with feelings of guilt - which are all too often associated with autistic children

What garbage. Mercury has been known to be an extremely toxic material for a hundred years. However, parents of autistic kids are "recovering" them from heavy metals poisoning and autism (from all causes).

Here's one mother's story. I don't read any "guilt" there.

"I can't remember exactly, since at the time the idea of autism, vaccines, etc. were not on my mind. But, if my memory serves me correct, Billy got 4 vaccines at once, and shortly after he had a fever of 103.7 with diarrhea, and was not even acting sick. He was running around happy with that fever. Shortly after all that, he started stuttering. The stuttering kept getting worse over a 6-month time period, and then he could no longer pronounce any words, just sounds. He had perfect speech at age 3.5 years, and at age 4 years, he could not pronounce one word correctly. He had this lost look in his eyes, like he was losing his ability to concentrate. He also developed OCD, and would fit forever about things that were not significant. It was like he got into a fit, and he just could not get out of it. At this moment in time, I was at the beginning of learning about recovery for my other son who was 10 years older."

LAK Supply
10-23-2009, 6:51 PM
Broad, sweeping provisions are BOUND to be misused by government.

ALL provisions are bound to be misused by the gov't.... they can't be trusted with ANYTHING.

GuyW
10-23-2009, 7:49 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOEXldRNxcA&feature=related

Nick the Sniper
12-08-2009, 4:52 PM
This always bothers me when people say rights "fade" or can be "taken." If you recognized them being taken then guess what? They're gone.

510dat
12-08-2009, 5:54 PM
Article I, Section 8:
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States;

Quarantining people to prevent the spread of contagious disease is well within the power of government, like it or not.

There is several hundred years of history of people being quarantined in their homes due to illness, before and after the American Revolution.

Keep in mind, quarantines in epidemic situation would almost certainly be home quarantines, and not the "I was dragged from my home and put in a hospital" kind. There just isn't the space in hospitals to keep that many people, and they're more likely to get better at home anyway.

My dad was quarantined to his home in the 50's when his sister got the measles, and at the time it wasn't a big deal.

Shotgun Man
12-08-2009, 6:08 PM
You should at least refer to H1N1 in your thread title. Your title, if not misleading, is uninformative.