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tunder
10-22-2009, 1:23 AM
From this and other articles is sounds like both open and concealed carry will be legal.

http://www.jhnewsandguide.com/article.php?art_id=5202

Officials say a law signed by President Obama in May will allow gun owners to openly carry firearms in Grand Teton and the Wyoming portions of Yellowstone when the law goes into effect in February.

Several National Park Service employees and legal experts who interpreted the legislation say it extends to all, not just those with concealed weapons permits. When U.S. Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla., attached a rider to a credit card reform bill earlier this year, almost all reports indicated it applied to concealed weapons only.

While federal officials are trying to figure out the nuances of the law to develop guidance for park rangers, one said there appears to be little question that toting firearms openly will be allowed, depending on the law of the state in which the park is located.

Can you say unintended consequences.
_________________

Gray Peterson
10-22-2009, 4:18 AM
Brady Campaign really pulled a stupid with their suit against DoI. If they had left well enough alone they would have just had concealed only with a permit and would not have seen any guns in public parks.

But, they couldn't have that, now, could they?

I'm planning a hike either up Mt. Rainier or Olympic National Park next year because of this. Thanks, Brady Campaign. Now FYAD!

joelberg
10-22-2009, 4:46 AM
Sounds awesome. I am so going to Yellowstone as I've always wanted to, now it's just a celebration of gun rights liberty.

nhanson
10-22-2009, 8:24 AM
Sounds awesome. I am so going to Yellowstone as I've always wanted to, now it's just a celebration of gun rights liberty.

Here Here! I have my camping reservations for next July!

MudCamper
10-22-2009, 8:28 AM
National Parks will be just like National Forests, in that firearms laws of the state the Park is in will apply. In CA this means CCW with permit, and loaded open carry or unloaded open carry depending on where you are. Like I've stated in Firearms in Forests and Parks (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=186457), the Park Service has the authority per 36 CFR 261.58 to ban shooting anywhere they like in the Parks, so theoretically they can/will ban shooting entirely, which leaves us with UOC (or CCW loaded if you have a permit).

Mitch
10-22-2009, 8:47 AM
National Parks will be just like National Forests, in that firearms laws of the state the Park is in will apply.

It's really as simple as this. I am mystified by all the, um, mystery surrounding this new legislation.

MudCamper
10-22-2009, 8:58 AM
It's really as simple as this. I am mystified by all the, um, mystery surrounding this new legislation.

I think the confusion comes from the fact that there was the Bush order first, that only allowed licensed CCW. That was blocked by an anti judge, so the legislature added the new provision to the credit card bill, and it is even better for us than the order.

M1A Rifleman
10-22-2009, 9:36 AM
I think the confusion comes from the fact that there was the Bush order first, that only allowed licensed CCW. That was blocked by an anti judge, so the legislature added the new provision to the credit card bill, and it is even better for us than the order.

Help me out on this Mud Camper. I don't it is that simple for CA. UOC maybe be easy, LOC seems more difficult and would seem could get folks in trouble. For instance, I don't think walking around the the park entry and information center that is full of people would be a go since it would be defined as a public place - just like the NF. It seems to me the only place to LOC would be off on some trail far far awy from the public - which is really when you would need a weapon anyway.

MudCamper
10-22-2009, 9:47 AM
Help me out on this Mud Camper. I don't it is that simple for CA. UOC maybe be easy, LOC seems more difficult and would seem could get folks in trouble. For instance, I don't think walking around the the park entry and information center that is full of people would be a go since it would be defined as a public place - just like the NF. It seems to me the only place to LOC would be off on some trail far far awy from the public - which is really when you would need a weapon anyway.

Yes, LOC only in areas where shooting is not prohibited, which yes, generally means out in the woods. UOC otherwise (with ammo at hand). But there is no "public place" restriction. The NF has this restriction, per 36 CFR 261.10 (d), and I believe it will apply to NPs also:

The following are prohibited:

(d) Discharging a firearm or any other implement capable of taking human life, causing injury, or damaging property as follows:

(1) In or within 150 yards of a residence, building, campsite, developed recreation site or occupied area, or
(2) Across or on a National Forest System road or a body of water adjacent thereto, or in any manner or place whereby any person or property is exposed to injury or damage as a result in such discharge.
(3) Into or within any cave.

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the NPs ban shooting anywhere in the Parks. (I'll be surprised if they don't.) But all this is still WAY better than what we have now, which is a ban on possession of operable/unlocked firearms. We will at least be able to UOC, and have loaded firearms in our campsites.

demnogis
10-22-2009, 9:49 AM
National Parks are in large part within National Forests. If someone could post the wording of the bill so we're not just making presumptions...

As it stands currently you can LOC in most National Forests. If you visit a park and their rules do not have a discharge prohibition you could LOC in the National Park. Although in CA, most all have "No explosives, fireworks, campfires (outside of fire pits) and no firearms" rules.

This leaves with UOC in National Parks and LOC in National Forests. The law doesn't take effect until 2011, correct?

MudCamper
10-22-2009, 9:54 AM
The law doesn't take effect until 2011, correct?

February 22, 2010. That's two thousand ten.

M1A Rifleman
10-22-2009, 9:54 AM
Yes, LOC only in areas where shooting is not prohibited, which yes, generally means out in the woods. UOC otherwise (with ammo at hand). But there is no "public place" restriction. The NF has this restriction, per 36 CFR 261.10 (d), and I believe it will apply to NPs also:



All this is still WAY better than what we have now, which is a ban on possession of operable/unlocked firearms.

Thanks, this confirms my understanding. Here's the problem, like the posted article stated, shooting (meaning target practice) within the NP system will be prohibited. For CA, I think this means no LOC, even in areas out out in the woods.

I predict there will be many in CA that will get themselves in hot water trying to carry within a park - unless they CCW.

ETD1010
10-22-2009, 9:57 AM
wait. What does a discharge policy have to do with LOC? I wasn't aware that if a place prohibited shooting, it prohibited LOC.

MudCamper
10-22-2009, 10:02 AM
wait. What does a discharge policy have to do with LOC? I wasn't aware that if a place prohibited shooting, it prohibited LOC.

PC 12031 prohibits loading anywhere shooting is prohibited.

M1A Rifleman
10-22-2009, 10:09 AM
PC 12031 prohibits loading anywhere shooting is prohibited.

Yes, so would this not prohibit LOC within a CA National Park - assuming they will have such a policy??

MudCamper
10-22-2009, 10:19 AM
Yes, so would this not prohibit LOC within a CA National Park - assuming they will have such a policy??

Like I've said, yes, if they ban shooting, it would ban loading. But that would not stop UOC. And it would not prevent keeping loaded firearms in one's campsite, as 12031 exempts this.

Perhaps some background reading would be helpful:

What is Loaded in California (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=103660)
Open Carry in California (http://www.californiaopencarry.org/)
Firearms in Forests and Parks (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=186457)

Vtec44
10-22-2009, 10:24 AM
So is Yosemite Valley in an unincorporated part of CA? :D

MudCamper
10-22-2009, 10:28 AM
So is Yosemite Valley in an unincorporated part of CA? :D

Yes, but read the 36 CFR 261.10 (d) citation posted above. And like I've said a hundred times now, if they ban shooting, which they likely will everywhere in the parks, that bans loading in CA (except in your campsite, or if you have a CCW permit).

Vtec44
10-22-2009, 10:32 AM
Yes, but read the 36 CFR 261.10 (d) citation posted above. And like I've said a hundred times now, if they ban shooting, which they likely will everywhere in the parks, that bans loading in CA (except in your campsite, or if you have a CCW permit).

That's applicable to LOC, but not UOC right?

MudCamper
10-22-2009, 10:34 AM
That's applicable to LOC, but not UOC right?

I feel like a parrot. Yes, like I've also stated in this very thread, repeatedly, UOC will be legal in the National Parks.

Vtec44
10-22-2009, 10:39 AM
I feel like a parrot. Yes, like I've also stated in this very thread, repeatedly, UOC will be legal in the National Parks.

Just so for the purpose of clarity, 36 CFR 261.10 (d) doesn't apply if you're planning to do UOC in NP once the law goes into effect. :D

Southwest Chuck
10-22-2009, 10:40 AM
I feel like a parrot. Yes, like I've also stated in this very thread, repeatedly, UOC will be legal in the National Parks.

You have more patience than I would have Mudcamper ! :D

M1A Rifleman
10-22-2009, 10:41 AM
Like I've said, yes, if they ban shooting, it would ban loading. But that would not stop UOC. And it would not prevent keeping loaded firearms in one's campsite, as 12031 exempts this.


Thanks, that is my understanding.

You can bank there will be no shooting allowed with CA NP's like Yosemite, so LOC will be a No GO - except a campsite.

MP301
10-22-2009, 1:32 PM
Thanks, that is my understanding.

You can bank there will be no shooting allowed with CA NP's like Yosemite, so LOC will be a No GO - except a campsite.

But the loaded part wont apply to CCW holders, correct?

Polly want a cracker? :p

MudCamper
10-22-2009, 1:48 PM
But the loaded part wont apply to CCW holders, correct?

Correct. With a CCW permit you are exempted from 12031 and can carry loaded and concealed.

Decoligny
10-22-2009, 2:02 PM
Help me out on this Mud Camper. I don't it is that simple for CA. UOC maybe be easy, LOC seems more difficult and would seem could get folks in trouble. For instance, I don't think walking around the the park entry and information center that is full of people would be a go since it would be defined as a public place - just like the NF. It seems to me the only place to LOC would be off on some trail far far awy from the public - which is really when you would need a weapon anyway.

What does "a public place" have to do with it?

12031. (a) (1) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when
he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in a
vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an
incorporated city or in any public place or on any public street[B] in a
prohibited area of unincorporated territory.[B/]

It only come into place if you are in an incorporated city, or a prohibited area of unincorporated territory.

So, unless they actually prohibit discharge of firearms in that particular public place, you can carry LOC.

I carry LOC into my local Pizza Parlor. It gets pretty crazy in there when you get the entire Rosamond Youth Soccer League in the place after a game. Very crowded. However, it is perfectly legal for me to LOC in this crowded "public place".

M1A Rifleman
10-22-2009, 2:08 PM
What does "a public place" have to do with it?

12031. (a) (1) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when
he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in a
vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an
incorporated city or in any public place or on any public street[B] in a
prohibited area of unincorporated territory.[B/]

It only come into place if you are in an incorporated city, or a prohibited area of unincorporated territory.

So, unless they actually prohibit discharge of firearms in that particular public place, you can carry LOC.

I carry LOC into my local Pizza Parlor. It gets pretty crazy in there when you get the entire Rosamond Youth Soccer League in the place after a game. Very crowded. However, it is perfectly legal for me to LOC in this crowded "public place".

National Parks will prohibit shooting = NO LOC.

MudCamper
10-22-2009, 2:14 PM
National Parks will prohibit shooting = NO LOC.

Careful. We do not know this. It is a reasonable assumption that they will. But they have not yet.

M1A Rifleman
10-22-2009, 2:20 PM
Careful. We do not know this. It is a reasonable assumption that they will. But they have not yet.

You are correct, I could be jumping the gun on their policy, however:

From the OP's article reharding Yellowstone NP:
“They cannot use it or display it in a threatening manner, and they cannot discharge it unless their personal safety is in question,” she said."

I'd say it will be the same for California and any other NP as they will want as much of a uniform policy as possible.

MudCamper
10-22-2009, 2:22 PM
From the OP's article reharding Yellowstone NP:
“They cannot use it or display it in a threatening manner, and they cannot discharge it unless their personal safety is in question,” she said."

Ah, I missed that. Interesting. I wonder if they've developed a nation-wide policy yet. Will have to do some googling...

Decoligny
10-22-2009, 2:36 PM
Ah, I missed that. Interesting. I wonder if they've developed a nation-wide policy yet. Will have to do some googling...

If the exact wording of their "discharge prohibition" is can't discharge a firearm unless their safety is in question, then it will not technically be a prohibition, it will be a discharge limitation.

MudCamper
10-22-2009, 2:57 PM
If the exact wording of their "discharge prohibition" is can't discharge a firearm unless their safety is in question, then it will not technically be a prohibition, it will be a discharge limitation.

True. That would be nice if this how it plays out.

Can't find anything on a national level except this old statement:

http://www.nps.gov/hocu/parknews/upload/DOI%20Firearms%2005222009.pdf