PDA

View Full Version : FFL question / looking for an FFL


CaliforniaHunter
10-22-2009, 1:21 AM
I have an FFL question which puzzles me. I am planning on buying a gun from someone out of state. I have asked a couple of gunshops about being an FFL for me.

as standard they mentioned their fee, in addition however, 1 gunshop said a sales tax had to paid for the price of the gun, which is collected and I guess sent to the state. However, another gunshop said no additional fee or sales tax is collected.

Can anyone shed some light on this or possibly explain?

Can someone recommend an FFL in my area? I am in LA, near LAX, South Bay area. (El Segundo)

Thanks for the info. Feel free to PM me.

ZirconJohn
10-22-2009, 2:22 AM
You can find this on The State Of CA BOE...
However, much easier if you just hit the following link; Go Here-->--> http://www.net-ffl.com/salestax.pdf

Read; 495-0843... and 495-0848 Sales and Use TAX Annotations

Now, I cannot speak for other FFL's... but I'd rather play with a liquored-up rattle snake than mesk with the CA BOE. The BOE is notorious reputation for a REASON!

tenpercentfirearms
10-22-2009, 6:56 AM
You can find this on The State Of CA BOE...
However, much easier if you just hit the following link; Go Here-->--> http://www.net-ffl.com/salestax.pdf

Read; 495-0843... and 495-0848 Sales and Use TAX Annotations

Now, I cannot speak for other FFL's... but I'd rather play with a liquored-up rattle snake than mesk with the CA BOE. The BOE is notorious reputation for a REASON!

The one thing that has changed about that PDF is that the DROS fee is not taxable.

kemasa
10-22-2009, 9:08 AM
It is mentioned at the bottom of the section that the DROS fee is not taxable since 01-Jan-1999. You need to read the whole section.

If you are buying from a private party and the person is willing to write a letter stating that it is a private sale, an occasional sale and that they don't have a business, then sales tax does not have to be collected. If it is from a business, then sales tax has to be collected on the firearm, on any "profit" from shipping (hard to know that one unless you know what the shipper actually paid vs. what they charged) and the FFL fee. The shipping should be broken out from the total since there is no sales tax on the actual shipping.

ZirconJohn
10-22-2009, 9:27 AM
The one thing that has changed about that PDF is that the DROS fee is not taxable.

Page 3 of that PDF, 2'nd paragraph;
(Note: On and after January 1, 1999, the Department of Justice fee is not includible in the measure of tax, but all other charges remain subject to tax.)

That last line was overlooked by me all the while, until I posted that .pdf last night.

I do not add tax on the DROS (never have). I always line item that fee separate so I don't have to add tax. These details were discussed with BOE a couple years ago when I went a few rounds with them on the CA USE TAX deal. I took a lot of punches, and I fought back... more like a swing and a miss!!!

Sure... there are CA dealers out there that do not add CA Use Tax. I cannot speak for them.

I add use tax to out of State client purchases. I don't like it; you don't like it, TPF doesn't like it, but then... who likes the CA BOE...!?!:cuss:

halifax
10-22-2009, 4:04 PM
It is mentioned at the bottom of the section that the DROS fee is not taxable since 01-Jan-1999. You need to read the whole section.

If you are buying from a private party and the person is willing to write a letter stating that it is a private sale, an occasional sale and that they don't have a business, then sales tax does not have to be collected. If it is from a business, then sales tax has to be collected on the firearm, on any "profit" from shipping (hard to know that one unless you know what the shipper actually paid vs. what they charged) and the FFL fee. The shipping should be broken out from the total since there is no sales tax on the actual shipping.

I'm assuming that is your personal policy.

kemasa
10-23-2009, 8:17 AM
No, that is not my personal policy. That is what I was told from the BOE to document that the firearm is not coming from a business. Otherwise, you can end up in a battle with the BOE if you don't collect the sales tax.

CaliforniaHunter
10-25-2009, 9:14 PM
Well,

I am a little confused stil.

Why do some FFL agents say the sales tax has to be collected and others do not?

Call 1 gunshop they say one thing, call another they say different.

I am just confused by it.

halifax
10-26-2009, 5:32 AM
Well,

I am a little confused stil.

Why do some FFL agents say the sales tax has to be collected and others do not?

Call 1 gunshop they say one thing, call another they say different.

I am just confused by it.

I would guess laziness, ignorance of the law, or CYA mentality. Some shops go way overboard on confusing laws. For example, the lock requirements. Some shops force you to buy a lock from them so they have a receipt showing a CA lock was purchased. They do this even when the firearm comes with a CA lock in the box. :confused:

In the case of sales tax, they apply the "sales tax must be collected" to everything when, in fact, the BOE says "except when the purchase is between private individuals (occasional sales)". Occasional sales can be in-state or out-of-state. Some dealers may not know this part, may not care, or just default to CYA..

kemasa
10-26-2009, 9:38 AM
It is quite confusing and I think that the reason that you get the different answers is because they just don't know and have not taken the time to figure it all out. Another reason is that it is hard to get an answer and really know in all cases.

Some FFLs don't collect sales tax on a firearm when it comes from out of state from a business. I don't see why they would do that unless they had not read the info from the BOE. The FFL fee is taxable in this case as well, but only when the firearm is taxable and that can get strange.

Another example is PPT. While most would think that sales tax would never be collected on a PPT, that is not the case. If the FFL gets involved with the price and/or with finding a buyer, then sales tax is due.

halifax
10-26-2009, 10:15 AM
It is quite confusing and I think that the reason that you get the different answers is because they just don't know and have not taken the time to figure it all out. Another reason is that it is hard to get an answer and really know in all cases.

Some FFLs don't collect sales tax on a firearm when it comes from out of state from a business. I don't see why they would do that unless they had not read the info from the BOE. The FFL fee is taxable in this case as well, but only when the firearm is taxable and that can get strange.

Another example is PPT. While most would think that sales tax would never be collected on a PPT, that is not the case. If the FFL gets involved with the price and/or with finding a buyer, then sales tax is due.

Now that presents a real conundrum. The DOJ says PPT cannot cost any more than $35.00.

kemasa
10-26-2009, 10:31 AM
Yes, but in the case of a FFL charging sales tax, that is not really the FFL charging more. Consignments are often done as a PPT when the firearm is not on the certified list. In that case there is more than $35 charged, plus there is sales tax.

I don't think that the wording is "cost", but "charge" and that has to do with fees, etc.

12082 ...
The purchaser or
transferee or person being loaned the firearm may be required by the
dealer to pay a fee not to exceed ten dollars ($10) per firearm, and
no other fee may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or
transfer of a firearm conducted pursuant to this section, except for
the applicable fees that may be charged pursuant to Sections 12076,
12076.5, and 12088.9 and forwarded to the Department of Justice, and
the fees set forth in Section 12805. Nothing in these provisions
shall prevent a dealer from charging a smaller fee. The dealer may
not charge any additional fees.


I don't think that sales tax would be considered a fee.

halifax
10-26-2009, 11:02 AM
Yes, but in the case of a FFL charging sales tax, that is not really the FFL charging more. Consignments are often done as a PPT when the firearm is not on the certified list. In that case there is more than $35 charged, plus there is sales tax.

I don't think that the wording is "cost", but "charge" and that has to do with fees, etc.



I don't think that sales tax would be considered a fee.

Only to the guy paying it :D

kemasa
10-26-2009, 2:00 PM
Yeah, but the only one who counts in terms of objecting is the CA DOJ. If they view it as a violation, then you have a serious problem since you can't make both the DOJ and the BOE happy.