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7x57
10-19-2009, 4:46 PM
I was hunting the last two weekends, and once again I am struck by two observations:

1. If the hunters I meet are any indication, contrary to a popular belief the gun rights community has no better contact with most hunters than we do with other shooters and possibly less. :(

2. Gun ban or not, an amazing number of Mexicans like to hunt, :thumbsup: and I rather suspect that isn't something they suddenly started liking here. (Yet another gun-control law that appears to be disregarded.) And our market penetration there is even worse. :( (Yes, I realize that there are some reasons for that--I am simply stating the end result.)

No point, no call to action--just annoyance. Though at one point I was telling myself I should have business cards printed up with contact info for CalNRA, CRPA, Calguns, and perhaps COHA to hand out. I doubt I'd have any trouble getting rid of a dozen or more each season. It's sort of like scattering seed hoping one will grow, but I don't see that it could possibly be less effective than we are now.

OK, done grumbling now.

7x57

elenius
10-19-2009, 5:28 PM
Yeah, or how about the fact thay only like 1 in 30 calguns members had signed the AB373 petition (last time I checked) :(

bigcalidave
10-19-2009, 5:38 PM
Isn't EVERY nra member in CA getting the NRAILA alerts? With NRA reps here, could we maybe get some coverage in the magazines? Speaking of ways to get more members and get the hunters involved. These guys have NRA stickers on every piece of glass they own. They should be here.
I said that in another recent thread. I'm worried as hell that the hunters are NOT caring, or even worried.

7x57
10-19-2009, 5:46 PM
I said that in another recent thread. I'm worried as hell that the hunters are NOT caring, or even worried.

Actually, we may be seeing the consequences of GoC raising money by claiming that "the NRA has given up on California." Perhaps they repeated it often enough that it was widely believed, but for every person that sent money to GoC instead ten simply dropped out.

And for that matter, a hundred probably simply believed the media that the NRA was "too extreme." That was always the purpose of the rhetoric--to divide us for conquest, and it's been quite effective.

However, I think the single biggest reason is that I'm meeting people who were never involved in the first place. (Last year, one hunter told me he had never voted in his life, though his wife does.)

7x57

nicki
10-19-2009, 5:54 PM
Our market penatration needs more than Brandon running the gun shows.

In fact, it will require outreach beyond thing like gun shows, but for many, the gun shows represent a safe haven. Gun owners in this state have been running to the closet.

Now, for what it is worth, the Calguns foundation and calguns.net recieved an award at the SAF GRPC for being the most effective grass roots gun organization in the country.

Once my friend Dina has finished editing and downloading all the speakers, I will call SAF to let them know. They have a vested interest since it will expose their conference to those who did not attend.

The Sykes case will probably be one of the most significant cases not only in California, but the country.

I predict the "Sykes case" will get balanced press coverage, perhaps even favorable and this will happen because Gene is a tactical genius.

Once this happens, gun owners will suddenly realize that they can win in California and when that happens, they will step up.

Other freedom based groups are growing in the state and it is only a matter of time before we start making alliances that will cause growth for our cause.

We don't have to re invent wheels, we can copy models from what others are doing.

Nicki

woodsman
10-19-2009, 6:13 PM
Isn't EVERY nra member in CA getting the NRAILA alerts? With NRA reps here, could we maybe get some coverage in the magazines? Speaking of ways to get more members and get the hunters involved. These guys have NRA stickers on every piece of glass they own. They should be here.
I said that in another recent thread. I'm worried as hell that the hunters are NOT caring, or even worried.

When new members join CalGuns is it possible to have them automatically signed up for alerts at that time?

thegratenate
10-19-2009, 6:20 PM
How about flowcharts?

There has got to be a way to get the word out, however long it takes to spread the seeds.

The way that I see it we have multiple problems that affects our marked penetration. One of them is that "gun people" tend to be loners, some even hermit like, another problem is that we are so far in the hole as far as rights go that many people seem to have totally given up on new acquisitions and simply hold on to what they bought "back in the day" or what they acquire via inheritance. Right now the climate for guns folks is very bad, and a lot of people have taken to hiding under a rock or found some other way to make themselves scarce. Without mainstream media coverage that is favorable or at least informative we have very little hope of making big changes in market penetration.

It would be interesting to see how a billboard could help us. The youtube channel is way past due, if I had any way to help with that I would, the best I can come up with is that I have a couple of female cousins that are attractive enough to read copy to a camera and keep people interested. They would be game for a pro 2A message

woodsman
10-19-2009, 6:30 PM
I believe United Sportsman Inc. ( shooting range http://www.unitedsportsmen.com/home.htm ) in Concord is renting space on the chain link fence for advertising banners.

wildhawker
10-19-2009, 6:44 PM
Nicki, I'll be posting more soon, but do note that Ivanimal is now heading up the gun show booths in conjunction with bplvr and dragonfly. I'm very excited to see the successes that will come to fruition through that experienced team of dedicated Calgunners.

That said, another handful of Calgunners are working quietly (but very diligently) behind the scenes in building the infrastructure for an amazingly robust, capable and expansive outreach and information/education campaign. Some pretty extraordinary things are coming both to Calguns and the outreach program; gun shows were only the beginning. Many opportunities have been identified and are in various stages of programming/planning right now.

7x57, the hunting/slow-bolt and non-english speaking gunnies are absolutely on the radar. I would be surprised if we don't have Spanish outreach content in print by Christmas.

Our market penatration needs more than Brandon running the gun shows.

In fact, it will require outreach beyond thing like gun shows, but for many, the gun shows represent a safe haven. Gun owners in this state have been running to the closet.

Now, for what it is worth, the Calguns foundation and calguns.net recieved an award at the SAF GRPC for being the most effective grass roots gun organization in the country.

Once my friend Dina has finished editing and downloading all the speakers, I will call SAF to let them know. They have a vested interest since it will expose their conference to those who did not attend.

The Sykes case will probably be one of the most significant cases not only in California, but the country.

I predict the "Sykes case" will get balanced press coverage, perhaps even favorable and this will happen because Gene is a tactical genius.

Once this happens, gun owners will suddenly realize that they can win in California and when that happens, they will step up.

Other freedom based groups are growing in the state and it is only a matter of time before we start making alliances that will cause growth for our cause.

We don't have to re invent wheels, we can copy models from what others are doing.

Nicki

wildhawker
10-19-2009, 6:48 PM
Billboards are costly, but are not off the table for specific issues in targeted markets.

Youtube needs to be approached methodically and professionally; we can't take a poor presentation back. I see this as 3-6 months out.

Hmm, attractive enough for a calendar? They'd need to be CGN members to fit the "Women of Calguns" theme.

It would be interesting to see how a billboard could help us. The youtube channel is way past due, if I had any way to help with that I would, the best I can come up with is that I have a couple of female cousins that are attractive enough to read copy to a camera and keep people interested. They would be game for a pro 2A message

trashman
10-19-2009, 6:53 PM
Great post, 7x57 - and great to hear from Brandon that CGF has great plans in the works as usual :)

I will only add to 7x57's point that we get 'traditional' hunters under the tent; H Paul Payne pointed out at an NRA meeting in San Jose a couple years ago that some avid hunter-folks from the Central Valley kinda got "in his face" many years ago and demanded "IF YOU'D JUST GIVE 'EM THE DAMN BLACK RIFLES THEY'D LEAVE US ALONE".

We need to get these folks on our boat / in our tent / aligned with our cause, and that right soon...

--Neill

7x57
10-19-2009, 6:53 PM
7x57, the hunting/slow-bolt and non-english speaking gunnies are absolutely on the radar. I would be surprised if we don't have Spanish outreach content in print by Christmas.

My guess is that there are a huge number you literally cannot reach except by meeting them in the woods. Too far beneath the radar. Thus my annoyance--I don't think there is a magic bullet--and my grumbling that I should just have business cards that I can actually hand out while stopped to ask the guys getting back in their jeep what they saw and where this unmarked logging road goes.

7x57

7x57
10-19-2009, 7:12 PM
"IF YOU'D JUST GIVE 'EM THE DAMN BLACK RIFLES THEY'D LEAVE US ALONE".

We need to get these folks on our boat / in our tent / aligned with our cause, and that right soon...


Oh, I really like it when they say that to me, because it tells me what I need to say to that person. It's the ten that are thinking it but won't say it that worry me, because I don't know where they live yet.

Once they tell me that black-rifle phobia is their issue I can answer quite persuasively (judging by results). It's based on such a misconception of reality that it is easily countered. Some things that seem to make the most impact is (1) the way sporting arms went away right after the "scarier" stuff in other countries ("I didn't care about that other stuff, but they lied and came for my pump shotgun too"), and (2) how the anti-gunner's rhetoric is aimed at precisely the same trajectory in this country. I like to tell the story of Ted Kennedy making a speech about "armor piercing cop-killer" ammo, and I keep the punch line for the end: that it was the lowly .30-30 he was complaining about. At that point, I hardly need to complete the lesson, which is that *every* useful big-game cartridge is an "armor piercing cop killer." Other excellent examples of how the rhetoric progresses are that sooner or later *every* bolt-action rifle is a "sniper rifle," and *every* repeating shotgun is an "assault weapon" or "trench gun." That covers nearly every hunter in the country, of course (and those that care about nothing but their London Best double-gun are probably too busy sipping sherry to help us anyway).

At that point, I remind them that hunters are in a minority, and are in the sights of the animal-rights crowd as well. But the black-rifle and the handgun people take the anti-gun heat off of them--so long as they're still there.

There is a pro-NRA angle I use if they have been listening to too much of the GoA or news media, along the lines of the NRA uses their money to defend the BR guys when BRs are under attack so they can turn around and use the BR guys' money when hunting is under attack. These days I can also discuss the NRA's efforts w.r.t. the lead ban, and so on.

By and large, I have been quite happy with that general line of argument, though of course it comes out different every time I say it. It's always a gift if I find I can use it.

7x57

yellowfin
10-19-2009, 7:14 PM
I guarantee you if you put up billboards with "Discretionary Issue is the New Separate But Equal" you'd have all the attention you could possibly ever want for a very long time, and you could actually control the conversation that way.

mmartin
10-19-2009, 7:14 PM
Isn't EVERY nra member in CA getting the NRAILA alerts? .
actually, I think they are separate, getting NRA doesn't mean you get ILA, or the reverse.
I only get the ILA ones.
Megan

thegratenate
10-19-2009, 7:18 PM
I wonder if anyone has any roof space where a billboard could be placed? A billboard would be a lot cheaper if a calgunner donated the space. It would still be a lot of money, but at least less.

I'm not sure about a calender, it's very possible.

The problem with the Hispanic market is that they completely disappear when hunting season is over. Many probably even vote for antis when they vote, just because the antis are the ones pandering to the general Hispanic market.

A few well placed spanish language adds would probably go a long ways if we could craft the perfect message.

trashman
10-19-2009, 7:18 PM
Once they tell me that black-rifle phobia is their issue I can answer quite persuasively (judging by results). It's based on such a misconception of reality that it is easily countered.

Yep - very well put as usual.

Once gunnies of all stripes realize the 'divide-n-conquer' strategy of the opposition (limited in breadth though it really is) it tends to relax the inter-nicene warfare amongst our own folks.

Every once in a while a friend (who doesn't like guns, or the politics of guns) will forward me something about Jim Zumbo -- "see how crazy you guys are!" ...

...and it's just a slow ball across the plate. Only folks whose minds have hardened against guns are immune to the logic as you describe it.

And they truly are the extremists.

--Neill

nicki
10-19-2009, 7:18 PM
Like it or not, the gun dealers in this state have records on who is a gun owner because they have customer records.

They have the real big list of who really is a gun owner in this state. If we had access to those customer bases, we could potentially reach at many of the gun owners in this state who for whatever reason don't know about us.

The easiest customer to sell to is one who has already done business with you, from a marketing standpoint, gun shops should be nuturing relationships with their customers anyway because all other businesses I have dealt with do.

Sending a letter to their customers infoming them of sales, special items, services and that Cal guns does exist seems to me to be a no brainer.

I know that there are issues with this, but to me resolving those issues will get us the outreach to what I call mid hanging fruit.

We have many talented people on this board. Some examples of how we could help each other.

We could help gunshops with their advertising campaigns while getting exposure to their customer base.

We could have coordinated scheduled shoots where we have shoots and the shops invite their customers and potential customers for a day of shooting.

If you were considering buying a gun, wouldn't it be nice to actually shoot a few rounds through it as well as to be able to talk to the owner of the gun as to what they like and don't like?

If we do the following I believe we won't have a market penetration problem.

Nicki

wildhawker
10-19-2009, 7:26 PM
Again, much of what is being discussed is coming soon; we've already (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=220295) had a few events (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=220139) of this nature and more are coming.

Working with vendors is a substantial component of the C3 outreach program; some have already heard the shpeel or seen the bullet points, but I can guarantee that creatively and proactively working to build our relationships with the vendors will be key.

We might not reach hispanic hunters year-round, but we can be what they see when they go buy the 2 or 3 boxes of ammo every fall; hopefully we'll have enough buy-in with the store clerks that they hand them a spanish-language flyer and ask that they donate the change for their sale to CGF by use of the CGF donation box we'll be placing on the counter.

anthonyca
10-19-2009, 7:39 PM
Great post. I went to a cowpalace gun show with some hunter friends and they do not like many of the things we do not like, waiting periods the carry laws ect.

When walking by Cold War Shooters one exclaimed " no wonder they want to ban these shows". We had a short conversation about why I believe in the our rights and how it is not only limited to "sporting guns". Many of my hunting friends seem like they are on the other side sometimes.

Calguns hunters, do you run into this?

Niki had a good post in the past about getting non traditional gun rights activists on our side. Along with many mexicans that like to hunt I also see many Filipinos that are into guns. I have a good friend who's parents came from vietnam and his dad is a gun nut like us. The problem is he is not a calgunner. The calguns members are diverse and we have done a good job of welcoming all kind of gunies from what I have seen but the "traditional hunters" outreach, to quote the OP, "sucks".

1859sharps
10-19-2009, 7:43 PM
At that point, I remind them that hunters are in a minority, and are in the sights of the animal-rights crowd as well. But the black-rifle and the handgun people take the anti-gun heat off of them--so long as they're still there.



kind of the point I was originally going to post. As long as they are going after my "assault rifle" or handgun, they aren't looking at your sniper rifle...err hunting rifle

Can'thavenuthingood
10-19-2009, 7:59 PM
I agree it would be nice to have some business cards to hand out.

The Calguns logo and address and with my username on them as an intro or invite to be used by the guy I give to.

When they post the first timer something like:

"Hi guys, new guy here. I ran into a Calgunner named Can'thavenuthingood and he told me about this place and I ought to check it out. So here I am, I like thundersticks and venison"

Something simple enough in a central repository online, a Calguns library in PDF or whatever file I can access and make my own cards.
Same with the nifty name tags I seen on the guys at the Panoche cleanup this last weekend. They could be located in a library we can access and print ourselves.

Since I'm on a roll here, it would be good place to put the flyers like AB962 and we as individual Calgunners could download and print them ourselves and pass out locally. Save's shipping by CGF and makes it more efficient and less cumbersome.

I'm going to the TEA Party boot camp in Fresno (http://www.centralvalleyteaparty.com/index.php?id=201) this Saturday then to the Rock N Rod Revival in Fresno (http://kmjnow.com/pages/rocknrod_main) afterwards. Wife and I and a few others will be wearing Calguns gear, it's great advertising as well as comfortable.

Having some of the literature given out at the booths posted online in PDF or whatever format ready for print would make it real handy to take some with to hand out.

Think about it, we could grab the file(s) and stop at somewhere along the way or the day before and have a few dozen printed up and we're on the way. I pay for it out of my pocket, not CGF's.

Same with the vendor's and FFL's spread out around the state. When they need or want something to restock the counter space or toss in the customer's shopping bag, he or she just prints them out if they have access to the files without PM'ing, emailing or calling and making arrangements to collect the literature.

A central library accessible by all to get the files needed.

Control of content could still be by whoever needs control now.

Vick

NovaTodd
10-19-2009, 8:13 PM
Let me know what I can do. My free time is pretty limited, but I'll gladly give some of it to help.

7x57
10-19-2009, 8:15 PM
Along with many mexicans that like to hunt I also see many Filipinos that are into guns.

A Filipino told me once that *every* Filipino has a 1911, whether he'll admit it or not. :)

I guess I should point out the elephant in the room--enough have questionable or worse immigration status that they don't want to call attention to themselves, and so won't be political about anything. And the attitude can extend to those whose status is clean. But I would like to think that those who become naturalized citizens and are no longer slaves of INS are reachable.

ETA: also, anyone who comes from a disarmed society is going to already be programmed to be very, very quiet about their guns, and the news media can play them like a fish as far as guns go. Any Mexican who hunted in Mexico was either rich or had illegal guns (or so a Mexican told me), and why change a successful strategy of silence? That's one reason why I suspect some can *only* be reached while hunting--we know who they are, and there is probably some trust between hunters (who are all in the same boat anyway). Many hunt in groups--maybe only one in the group actually went into a gun shop anyway?

Anyway, rational or not, my purely subjective feeling is that hunting is when we can reach them.

7x57

wildhawker
10-19-2009, 9:01 PM
Anyway, rational or not, my purely subjective feeling is that hunting is when we can reach them.

7x57

Which is exactly why we need to have appropriate content in the hands of our hunter members and allies ready to hand out when an opportunity presents itself.

trashman
10-19-2009, 9:11 PM
Anyway, rational or not, my purely subjective feeling is that hunting is when we can reach them.


To misquote a local vendor, "There is an app Wildhawker for that". :43:

--Neill

wildhawker
10-19-2009, 9:28 PM
Vick,

Business cards are in process. For obvious reasons we'll likely be keeping them 2-sided with a rundown of hook features and how to get started. Rather than place any sort of title or username in print we'll probably have a "Referred By" area on the card for members to write in their username for referrals and contact info (especially useful when incentives for referrals are available). Use of the logo should be limited to Calguns, Inc.-created material or those projects the Board grants express written consent.

It's cheaper and more consistent to create the products in large quantities and simply manage fulfillment; we fully intend to leverage volume at every opportunity. For example, the AB962/SB585 flyers would have cost 10-20x (or) more had we not pursued the production/distribution system we ended up using. The shipping was surprisingly minimal considering the volume of what was sent out. More advanced distribution infrastructure is coming through the Calguns store and Calguns outreach - stay tuned.

As to the central repository, it'll be an integral feature of the outreach infrastructure currently in the works. It won't be tomorrow but I can guarantee that a good number of folks are committing substantial manhours to the project.

Keep in mind that, while a small local batch print might save the direct costs of those units produced, it's actually a net loss in a number of respects: 1) reduced overall volume/reduced forecasting accuracy impacts cost savings by volume (the cost delta from 1k to 5k units may be surprisingly small) 2) increased local costs at member-level reduces global opportunity and community assets (if someone spends $20 doing what we can for $5, it's a $15 loss to the cause; it would be more valuable to simply reimburse our $5 and either keep or donate the $15 to CGF or CGN). The occasional local printoff for exceedingly small venues (a friend, for a local club or what have you) is why we'll post the resources. However, keeping a physical presence at the FFL/vendor is critical to maintaining the relationship and concreting our place in the mind of the owners and clerks (not to mention make sure the donation boxes are being emptied and sent to CGF regularly, and gently reminding the counter folks to ask the customers to drop their change in the box after every purchase).


I agree it would be nice to have some business cards to hand out.

The Calguns logo and address and with my username on them as an intro or invite to be used by the guy I give to.

When they post the first timer something like:

"Hi guys, new guy here. I ran into a Calgunner named Can'thavenuthingood and he told me about this place and I ought to check it out. So here I am, I like thundersticks and venison"

Something simple enough in a central repository online, a Calguns library in PDF or whatever file I can access and make my own cards.
Same with the nifty name tags I seen on the guys at the Panoche cleanup this last weekend. They could be located in a library we can access and print ourselves.

Since I'm on a roll here, it would be good place to put the flyers like AB962 and we as individual Calgunners could download and print them ourselves and pass out locally. Save's shipping by CGF and makes it more efficient and less cumbersome.

I'm going to the TEA Party boot camp in Fresno this Saturday then to the Rock N Rod Revival in Fresno afterwards. Wife and I and a few others will be wearing Calguns gear, it's great advertising as well as comfortable.

Having some of the literature given out at the booths posted online in PDF or whatever format ready for print would make it real handy to take some with to hand out.

Think about it, we could grab the file(s) and stop at somewhere along the way or the day before and have a few dozen printed up and we're on the way. I pay for it out of my pocket, not CGF's.

Same with the vendor's and FFL's spread out around the state. When they need or want something to restock the counter space or toss in the customer's shopping bag, he or she just prints them out if they have access to the files without PM'ing, emailing or calling and making arrangements to collect the literature.

A central library accessible by all to get the files needed.

Control of content could still be by whoever needs control now.

Vick

7x57
10-19-2009, 9:37 PM
Which is exactly why we need to have appropriate content in the hands of our hunter members and allies ready to hand out when an opportunity presents itself.

Indeed. Have you considered targeted marketing and perhaps strategic alliances? For example, when talking to hunters COHA appears to be their best advocate for non-gun issues. A business card aimed at hunters perhaps could have the costs split with COHA and list contact info for both. Other groups would require different alliances.

7x57

wildhawker
10-19-2009, 9:50 PM
Strategic alliances yes, although we're probably a bit young in the process to start knocking on those doors. Having the building blocks in place and our value/capacity clearly established with a more global audience will go a long way for our credibility and their cause to enter into those discussions. However, we can start working with the hunting forums right now (www.jesseshunting.com comes to mind) starting with members cross-posting info and building bridges/networks there.

7x57
10-19-2009, 10:10 PM
However, we can start working with the hunting forums right now (www.jesseshunting.com comes to mind) starting with members cross-posting info and building bridges/networks there.

Yeah, Jesse's came to mind. I'm a member there but only have a few posts. However, Jesse's doesn't lobby Sacramento, so it's harder to explain the value to non-web addicts. And the guys who offered tortilla-wrapped hot dogs to a starving hunter walking out at night (i.e. me) did not appear to be web addicts.

Fun bunch of guys though. Some does came right through camp about the time I got there (in fact we started talking because I turned back to tell them I'd spooked a deer about 30 yd from their tents), and one guy appeared to be serious about trying to rope one and rigged his rope like he knew how to use it. :eek:

If you hear a report of a doe accusing some guy drawing a 1911 on her just to get *one* deer in his sights, I categorically deny it was me and promise not to do it ever again. I certainly did not draw down on that deer...that cocksure, taunting deer...staring, daring someone to do something...um, what was the question?

Said Mexican hunters certainly encouraged said unknown individual to shoot, however--at a doe, in the dark, in an inhabited camp.... :chris:

7x57

wildhawker
10-19-2009, 10:26 PM
Sounds like a few good hunting stories for the next Nordyke event. :chris:

dantodd
10-19-2009, 11:30 PM
Said Mexican hunters certainly encouraged said unknown individual to shoot, however--at a doe, in the dark, in an inebriated camp.... :chris:

7x57

FYP

Sunwolf
10-20-2009, 7:17 AM
Having some of those CG. business cards printed up in spanish might be useful as well as the retailer placards for the collection box.

gd-bh
10-20-2009, 9:25 PM
In the arena of "strategic alliances", perhaps you might consider some non-traditional groups. I suspect most have other interests that the freedom haters are also trying to restrict/eliminate. The "anti's" hate off roaders, motorcyclists, hot rodders, and any number of activities that encourage individualism and free thinking. They use the same tactics, and have the same goal: control over the peons.

It wouldn't always be a perfect fit, but to forge a coalition of freedom oriented interests that could be mobilized to fight for each others interests would greatly increase the numbers, which is what the politicians listen to (in most cases..Benidict Ahnold excluded) when it really comes down to it.

Biggest problem with that is the time it would take for the various interests to understand the issues of the others. But a comprehensive and unified attack on the "anti's" from all angles just might be the answer to break their choke hold on the various segments of those of us who crave and value freedom and individualism.

mmartin
10-20-2009, 11:06 PM
I see this:

Billboards are costly
and this:
Hmm, attractive enough for a calendar? They'd need to be CGN members to fit the "Women of Calguns" theme.

in the same post and it makes me think... we've still got time to get one out by christmas...

got a team on it yet?
megan

mmartin
10-20-2009, 11:08 PM
Oh, I really like it when they say that to me, because it tells me what I need to say to that person. It's the ten that are thinking it but won't say it that worry me, because I don't know where they live yet.

Once they tell me that black-rifle phobia is their issue I can answer quite persuasively (judging by results). It's based on such a misconception of reality that it is easily countered. Some things that seem to make the most impact is (1) the way sporting arms went away right after the "scarier" stuff in other countries ("I didn't care about that other stuff, but they lied and came for my pump shotgun too"), and (2) how the anti-gunner's rhetoric is aimed at precisely the same trajectory in this country. I like to tell the story of Ted Kennedy making a speech about "armor piercing cop-killer" ammo, and I keep the punch line for the end: that it was the lowly .30-30 he was complaining about. At that point, I hardly need to complete the lesson, which is that *every* useful big-game cartridge is an "armor piercing cop killer." Other excellent examples of how the rhetoric progresses are that sooner or later *every* bolt-action rifle is a "sniper rifle," and *every* repeating shotgun is an "assault weapon" or "trench gun." That covers nearly every hunter in the country, of course (and those that care about nothing but their London Best double-gun are probably too busy sipping sherry to help us anyway).

At that point, I remind them that hunters are in a minority, and are in the sights of the animal-rights crowd as well. But the black-rifle and the handgun people take the anti-gun heat off of them--so long as they're still there.

There is a pro-NRA angle I use if they have been listening to too much of the GoA or news media, along the lines of the NRA uses their money to defend the BR guys when BRs are under attack so they can turn around and use the BR guys' money when hunting is under attack. These days I can also discuss the NRA's efforts w.r.t. the lead ban, and so on.

By and large, I have been quite happy with that general line of argument, though of course it comes out different every time I say it. It's always a gift if I find I can use it.

7x57

can we put this on a laminated 3x5 sheet and hand them out? this is the sort of cheat sheet folks could use in addressing those who need a bit more information to revise their opinions...
megan

minuteman
10-20-2009, 11:11 PM
I would like to see posters and info at gun stores and ranges, two places whose livelihood go hand in hand with our rights.

The last mayoral election in Los Angeles is was really difficult to find information on what the candidates stood for nevermind what their position on gun rights. I think the establishment of a political tracker could be helpful, something people who are active can easily reference when its election time since I doubt anyone will remember who voted which way on AB962 especially when the bureaucrats play magical chairs during the next election. If people don't vote, there isn't much you can do but if they do, they do vote, calguns can be useful in making informed decisions.

nat
10-21-2009, 8:02 AM
Market penetration.........there are a lot of liberal leaning folks that enjoy guns and gun rights. I think there are many that get turned off by the site because of all the, "democrat=communist=socialist= I hate you POS" stuff that gets tossed around here a lot.

I have a lot of liberal friends, that absolutely love firearms, but they don't want to be constantly insulted because they voted for Obama, or whatever.

I wish we could, in a non-biased manner, get information to liberal leaning folks so they could make actual informed decisions on candidates. If we could do that, perhaps we could start voting in decent folks, getting more outrage over laws, etc.

My $.02 for what it is worth.

a1c
10-21-2009, 8:03 AM
Some of the hunters are turned off by the politics associated with the pro-NRA or, worse, GOA rhetoric. There are plenty of Democrat-voting hunters, suburban liberals or Mendocino-type farmers or hippies who own guns, but they don't recognize themselves in the heavily politically-charged discourse that's often heard here.

Pandering to the tea baggers is a given. But gun rights activists will only be able to attract a wider support if they stop systematically mixing their positions regarding gun rights with politics. Just the sigs (by that I mean signatures, and not certain Swiss/German firearms) of many Calguns.net members is enough to turn off many liberal gun owners. I've met a couple of very serious gun-loving people who said they gave up on Calguns because of the perceived harassment they felt whenever they would discuss some political issues, because they for instance had a more moderate view of requirements for gun ownership.

From what I see, the Calguns community is a great resource of people and knowledge for gun owners. The CGF does great work. It should definitely be more prominent and although I've been mostly lurking in here, I always try to turn people onto Calguns.net when they have a gun question or issue.

We're not going to see restrictions lifted on so-called black rifles, hi-cap mags, certain calibers or CCW licenses unless the discourse of gun rights activists moves away from the left-right dichotomy and stops painting liberals or Dems or Obama voters as mindless stereotypes who systematically want to ban guns and enslave all of us. I know many gun-totting liberals or gun owners who voted for Obama and still support him, and some of them even conceal-carry. They're not going to come in here, especially after what happened over the past year or so, when they saw the price of ammo shoot up and still have a hard time finding 9mm or .223 at decent prices, because some paranoid types stockpiled and fed rumors about Dems and Obama being out to confiscate guns or restrict gun ownership.

The gun rights community in California needs to understand that there are TONS of gun owners who do not necessarily identify as conservatives, Republicans or Libertarians, especially in rural and suburban areas, and that those people won't join groups where Obama-bashing is a sport. Instead it needs to focus on the actual issues at hand, like the current bills restricting access to ammo, and educate in a non-political way about gun ownership and gun rights.

wildhawker
10-21-2009, 8:05 AM
Good points; the posters/banners are totally do-able right now. Maybe we could have one of the creative geniuses out there work on a design?

Vote tracker/scorecard is an interesting thought as well.

I would like to see posters and info at gun stores and ranges, two places whose livelihood go hand in hand with our rights.

The last mayoral election in Los Angeles is was really difficult to find information on what the candidates stood for nevermind what their position on gun rights. I think the establishment of a political tracker could be helpful, something people who are active can easily reference when its election time since I doubt anyone will remember who voted which way on AB962 especially when the bureaucrats play magical chairs during the next election. If people don't vote, there isn't much you can do but if they do, they do vote, calguns can be useful in making informed decisions.

7x57
10-21-2009, 8:16 AM
Pandering to the tea baggers is a given.

In other words, you want somewhere where you can use the bigoted term "tea baggers" without being called out on your bigotry.

Sorry, not interested.

7x57

Hunt
10-21-2009, 8:30 AM
Yeah, or how about the fact thay only like 1 in 30 calguns members had signed the AB373 petition (last time I checked) :(

the sleeping giant will keep sleeping until the jackboots are busting the door down and taking their guns.

wildhawker
10-21-2009, 2:33 PM
Some of the hunters are turned off by the politics associated with the pro-NRA or, worse, GOA rhetoric. There are plenty of Democrat-voting hunters, suburban liberals or Mendocino-type farmers or hippies who own guns, but they don't recognize themselves in the heavily politically-charged discourse that's often heard here.

That can also be viewed as their lack of interest/investment in maintaining their position. While I understand how swimming upstream can be emotionally draining, I'm not sympathetic to those who refuse to jump in the river.

Pandering to the tea baggers is a given.

I'm sorry, were you trying to make a point here or were you simply taking the cheap shot?

But gun rights activists will only be able to attract a wider support if they stop systematically mixing their positions regarding gun rights with politics.

I totally get it! So comments like Pandering to the tea baggers is a given aren't helpful? Note to self...

Just the sigs (by that I mean signatures, and not certain Swiss/German firearms) of many Calguns.net members is enough to turn off many liberal gun owners. I've met a couple of very serious gun-loving people who said they gave up on Calguns because of the perceived harassment they felt whenever they would discuss some political issues, because they for instance had a more moderate view of requirements for gun ownership.

My personal feeling is that, within the realm of reason and civility, and in conformance with the site rules, general political debate should be allowed in Off Topic or some potential non-2A-Politics forum; however, post at your own risk and be prepared to support your arguments.

The issue of ownership requirements is a hot-button issue, especially in the context of a discussion forum with thousands of frustrated and liberty-minded gunnies. Spirited debate should be expected.

From what I see, the Calguns community is a great resource of people and knowledge for gun owners. The CGF does great work. It should definitely be more prominent and although I've been mostly lurking in here, I always try to turn people onto Calguns.net when they have a gun question or issue.

That is great to hear, and I hope you feel that we're continuing to improve. Much is in store for this community and I'm pleased you'll be a part in it.

We're not going to see restrictions lifted on so-called black rifles, hi-cap mags, certain calibers or CCW licenses unless the discourse of gun rights activists moves away from the left-right dichotomy and stops painting liberals or Dems or Obama voters as mindless stereotypes who systematically want to ban guns and enslave all of us. I know many gun-totting liberals or gun owners who voted for Obama and still support him, and some of them even conceal-carry. They're not going to come in here, especially after what happened over the past year or so, when they saw the price of ammo shoot up and still have a hard time finding 9mm or .223 at decent prices, because some paranoid types stockpiled and fed rumors about Dems and Obama being out to confiscate guns or restrict gun ownership.

I'll have to disagree with you here. The laws are going to change with or without the support of Rs, Ds, Is or Ls. The real question is: what is the sociopolitical, cultural and gun ownership dymanic going to look like post-McDonald/Nordyke/Palmer/Sykes/Peņa/etc?

In the above, you argue that people will not join CGN because "...the price of ammo [shot] up and still have a hard time finding 9mm or .223 at decent prices, because some paranoid types stockpiled and fed rumors about Dems and Obama...". While the panic buying may in some part have been an irrational overreaction, some call it being proactive. Time will tell if what you posit is accurate, but those who refuse to join because ammo is hard to find and have decided to project their frustrations onto those who have contrary views and elected to utilize their purchasing power (in accordance with free-market principles) in response to said views should read the beginning and end of your post. Ultimately, nothing prohibited them from showing up to Wal-Mart early to beat the next guy to the ammo counter.

The gun rights community in California needs to understand that there are TONS of gun owners who do not necessarily identify as conservatives, Republicans or Libertarians, especially in rural and suburban areas, and that those people won't join groups where Obama-bashing is a sport. Instead it needs to focus on the actual issues at hand, like the current bills restricting access to ammo, and educate in a non-political way about gun ownership and gun rights.

We're mainly in agreement on this; however, complete avoidance of politics is unrealistic inasmuch that politics largely drives the issue. Calling out an anti/pro politician for a statement, position or action is entirely reasonable.

KylaGWolf
10-21-2009, 8:25 PM
Hmm, attractive enough for a calendar? They'd need to be CGN members to fit the "Women of Calguns" theme.

That would leave me out then :).

wildhawker
10-21-2009, 8:58 PM
That would leave me out then :).

Quit it. June is UOC month. :p

dantodd
10-21-2009, 9:02 PM
Quit it. June is UOC month. :p

umm... this a PG rated calendar. Shouldn't those be carried concealed? (partially concealed anyway)

dantodd
10-21-2009, 9:02 PM
And no free (e) checks either.

a1c
10-21-2009, 9:07 PM
In other words, you want somewhere where you can use the bigoted term "tea baggers" without being called out on your bigotry.

Sorry, not interested.

7x57

I'm afraid you just made my point there.

"Bigotry" is actually a pretty accurate word to describe the discourse I've heard and seen at a couple of "tea parties" I witnessed. I suppose one man's bigotry is another one's opinion.

7x57
10-21-2009, 9:15 PM
I'm afraid you just made my point there.


You used a bigoted term, and I called you the bigot you are. Were you trying to make the point that you are a bigot? :confused:

7x57

a1c
10-21-2009, 9:21 PM
In the above, you argue that people will not join CGN because "...the price of ammo [shot] up and still have a hard time finding 9mm or .223 at decent prices, because some paranoid types stockpiled and fed rumors about Dems and Obama...". While the panic buying may in some part have been an irrational overreaction, some call it being proactive. Time will tell if what you posit is accurate, but those who refuse to join because ammo is hard to find and have decided to project their frustrations onto those who have contrary views and elected to utilize their purchasing power (in accordance with free-market principles) in response to said views should read the beginning and end of your post. Ultimately, nothing prohibited them from showing up to Wal-Mart early to beat the next guy to the ammo counter.

No, I didn't mean to say it was the only or even the main reason why those gun owners are not interested in joining Calguns.net or the CGF. The main reason is the politically charged and too often heavily polarized discourse that too many gun rights activists associate with the defense of the 2A.

You could see it as a chicken-and-egg problem.

But it's a pity that there are so many gun owners out there who get turned off by the systematic Dem-bashing (especially in those states where there are many gun-friendly Democrats) or the alignment with some dubious political movements that are too often associated with hardcore gun rights activists. I have several friends who are gun enthusiasts but who don't frequent certain ranges simply because they are tired of being approached by other shooters who are trying to recruit them for tea parties, or sign petitions about Obama's birth certificate. Fortunately not all gun rights supporters are like that, but it's a stereotype that's strongly anchored and needs to go away.

a1c
10-21-2009, 9:23 PM
You used a bigoted term, and I called you the bigot you are. Were you trying to make the point that you are a bigot? :confused:

7x57

As I said, you made my point when you said you weren't interested in being around people who use the word "tea baggers" (which I would personally call "derogatory" rather than "bigoted", but hey, it's your perception, so I'm not going to get all semantic here).

And my point was that there are many, many gun owners who don't side at all with tea parties activists (and often call them that way), and who get turned off by that kind of discourse, which is way too often associated with the discourse of too many 2A activists lately.

If you want to expand the gun rights movement, lose the political angle. That doesn't mean not exposing the positions of politicians, regardless of affiliation. That means staying away from propaganda which is not directly related with gun rights: accusations of socialism, the birther movement, the truthers, and so on. To you and to many in here, those movements might be closely related to the 2A right. But to many gun owners, they are absolutely not. As long as those associations are made, the gun rights movement will actually shrink, and not expand, because it will turn off more people than it will gain.

7x57
10-21-2009, 9:38 PM
As I said, you made my point when you said you weren't interested in being around people who use the word "tea baggers"


No, you're simply confused, or incapable of reading. I said nothing about politics. You chose to use a personal insult to a great many people I happen to like, and I have no intention of treating that as anything else.

I suggest you make a point of referring to everyone who voted for Obama by some crude sexual slur and see what sort of reaction you get. A clue for you: it probably won't have much to do with politics either.

7x57