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Johnny?
10-17-2009, 4:13 PM
I am currently helping my Auntie sell some of My uncle guns. He just passed away a couple of weeks.

What are the prcoess of doing a PPT with handgun ??

We did a couple of long gun and there was no problem since long gun don't require much work.

halifax
10-17-2009, 4:46 PM
Your Aunt is the legal owner now if they weren't willed to anyone else. Do the PPTs the same as you did the long guns. (You did do PPTs, didn't you.) The buyer will need an HSC or exemption and proof of redidency. Your aunt only needs CA DL or ID.

Johnny?
10-17-2009, 5:39 PM
I did the long gun at big 5 and they didnt ask much.

When i wented to to Tuner and asked about the process they asked if my Aunt have a well in writing for them to see. She only got a death certificate. He didn't wrote anything down but told her she can have it.

Ducman
10-17-2009, 5:49 PM
I don't think he has/had to do it in writing as this falls under "Communal Property" ?? as stated above unless it was "Willed" to someone else then she's not the rightful owner.

halifax
10-17-2009, 7:02 PM
I did the long gun at big 5 and they didnt ask much.

When i wented to to Tuner and asked about the process they asked if my Aunt have a well in writing for them to see. She only got a death certificate. He didn't wrote anything down but told her she can have it.

That's BS. Just go somewhere else and walk in like she owns the gun (which she does). Damn, some gun stores give us all a bad name. :mad:

Edit: It is not up to the dealer to determine ownership, only the seller's identity, race, place of birth, and citizenship. If the handgun has been reported stolen, the DOJ will initiate an investigation.

Capt. Speirs
10-17-2009, 8:54 PM
Love it when gun store personnel think they are attorneys.

Rob454
10-17-2009, 10:43 PM
yeah like I woudl let some gun store jockey read my will. I made it clear to my wife what to do with my guns if I die

tenpercentfirearms
10-18-2009, 7:10 AM
Legalities aside, the DOJ really doesn't care who claims they had the gun before as long as they know who has the gun now. You could even PPT it.

There should be no problem with the aunt doing a PPT. Just don't volunteer any info and have her pretend it is in her name.

kemasa
10-18-2009, 8:42 AM
If the firearms are more recent and were actually "registered" in his name, then there is a CA DOJ form which can be filled out to transfer the firearms into her name, no FFL required. This can be done even if the firearms are older and not in the system. It costs $19/firearm.

This is the correct way to do it, but as others have said, most likely it will not be questioned at all.

The problem comes in when you give some information. Either do it right and have all the information and paperwork or say as little as possible. If the FFL is not sure of who the actual owner is, then they do need to question it.

halifax
10-18-2009, 9:00 AM
If the firearms are more recent and were actually "registered" in his name, then there is a CA DOJ form which can be filled out to transfer the firearms into her name, no FFL required. This can be done even if the firearms are older and not in the system. It costs $19/firearm.

This is the correct way to do it, but as others have said, most likely it will not be questioned at all.

The problem comes in when you give some information. Either do it right and have all the information and paperwork or say as little as possible. If the FFL is not sure of who the actual owner is, then they do need to question it.

Why?

kemasa
10-18-2009, 9:12 AM
Because a FFL should not want to get involved in any questionable or illegal actitvity and to ensure that the transfer is legal and proper.

If a person in a different area gives a firearm to a friend and that friend takes it to a different area and does a PPT with a third party and the FFL knows that this is the case, then they are violating the law. Look at the bottom of the DROS form, near where the signatures are. If the FFL knows that the seller is not really the owner, then the information is not true and correct. If the FFL does not know and has no reason to suspect that the seller is not the actual owner, then only the fake seller would be violating the law.

If the FFL transfers the firearm into their bound book and does not do the transfer as a PPT, then they can mark who they received it from, but there is still the issue of knowing that it was illegally transferred to the person that they received it from. If the FFL knows that, then they could be considered part of that illegal activity.

The bottom line is that the FFL is not getting paid enough to take any chances.

halifax
10-18-2009, 10:18 AM
Because a FFL should not want to get involved in any questionable or illegal actitvity and to ensure that the transfer is legal and proper.

If a person in a different area gives a firearm to a friend and that friend takes it to a different area and does a PPT with a third party and the FFL knows that this is the case, then they are violating the law. Look at the bottom of the DROS form, near where the signatures are. If the FFL knows that the seller is not really the owner, then the information is not true and correct. If the FFL does not know and has no reason to suspect that the seller is not the actual owner, then only the fake seller would be violating the law.

If the FFL transfers the firearm into their bound book and does not do the transfer as a PPT, then they can mark who they received it from, but there is still the issue of knowing that it was illegally transferred to the person that they received it from. If the FFL knows that, then they could be considered part of that illegal activity.

The bottom line is that the FFL is not getting paid enough to take any chances.

My DROS forms say "SELLER" not legal owner.

kemasa
10-18-2009, 10:24 AM
Ok, so it is not illegal for me to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge?

Non-owners can sell items, but they have to have a legal right to be able to do that. If a firearm is stolen, it is not legal to sell it. If it is illegally transferred, then the person in possession of it does not have the ability to legally sell it.

Bottom line, it would be an illegal transfer and I doubt that most FFLs would want to be involved with that, at least I hope so.

halifax
10-18-2009, 10:54 AM
Ok, so it is not illegal for me to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge?

Non-owners can sell items, but they have to have a legal right to be able to do that. If a firearm is stolen, it is not legal to sell it. If it is illegally transferred, then the person in possession of it does not have the ability to legally sell it.

Bottom line, it would be an illegal transfer and I doubt that most FFLs would want to be involved with that, at least I hope so.

Do you also visit a buyer's residence to verify the POR or do you just assume they aren't trying to get you to do something illegal? After all, you are signing the DROS :)

I wouldn't have any reason to assume the seller didn't have a legal standing to sell it unless they told me they just stole it. I don't ask my customers if they have legal standing to sell it.

kemasa
10-18-2009, 11:35 AM
You can assume that everything is legit until you hear otherwise.

If a person comes in to do a PPT and says that they were selling it for a friend, what would you do? You are now on notice that there could be a issue.

If a person comes in and says that they stole it, are you going to proceed with the transfer?

Sometimes things seem strange and you might need to ask questions. If two people come in and one is looking at the firearms and other is just standing around waiting, then the first person pulls out the money and hands it to the second person, who then says that they want to buy the firearm the first person selected. Are you just going to do the sale or are you going to start asking some questions? It could be a sting operation and you could be on TV.

You sign the documents to the best of your knowledge. You should not ignore warning signs though.

halifax
10-18-2009, 12:37 PM
You can assume that everything is legit until you hear otherwise.

If a person comes in to do a PPT and says that they were selling it for a friend, what would you do? You are now on notice that there could be a issue.

I don't see the issue. Again, the DROS says seller not legal owner.

If a person comes in and says that they stole it, are you going to proceed with the transfer?

I answered that in my last post.

Sometimes things seem strange and you might need to ask questions. If two people come in and one is looking at the firearms and other is just standing around waiting, then the first person pulls out the money and hands it to the second person, who then says that they want to buy the firearm the first person selected. Are you just going to do the sale or are you going to start asking some questions? It could be a sting operation and you could be on TV.

That might be a straw purchase and has nothing to do with receiving a firearm from a seller.

kemasa
10-18-2009, 1:15 PM
The person, who is claiming to be the seller, is not the legal owner. As such, they do not have legal possession of the firearm. If you know this and do the transfer, then you are part it the illegal transfer.

The last paragraph in in regards to the fact that you sometimes have to question people and refuse to do a transfer.