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View Full Version : AR 15 converted to lr still considered center fire?


Northern Lights
10-17-2009, 1:08 PM
I have a 5.56 CMMG AR and I just bought the .22lr conversion bolt. When the .22lr bolt is the gun is the AR still considered center fire, or is it now rim fire? Also when the .22lr bolt is installed can I use a mag that holds more that 10 rounds, since it would no longer be considered center fire (hopefully).

BTW: can rim fire .22 guns have mags with a 10+ capacity?

Thanks guys!

sspen003
10-17-2009, 1:10 PM
Not considered a centerfire rifle, so no bullet button needed while the 22 bolt is in the rifle.

10 rounds max no matter what

technique
10-17-2009, 1:14 PM
Not considered a centerfire rifle, so no bullet button needed while the 22 bolt is in the rifle.

10 rounds max no matter what

Not entirely true...

If you owned say, a Navy conversion kit that came with 15 rnd mags (prior to the ban), you can use those in your .22 AR....remember its only a no-no to use standard~caps in a centerfire BB type build.

sspen003
10-17-2009, 1:16 PM
Not entirely true...

If you owned say, a Navy conversion kit that came with 15 rnd mags (prior to the ban), you can use those in your .22 AR....remember its only a no-no to use standard~caps in a centerfire BB type build.

Oh yeah. Sorry forgot to include pre-bans

Northern Lights
10-17-2009, 1:19 PM
Technique: so if the build is a .22lr rim fire (with the conversion kit) can I use a standard mag (30rds of .22lr)?
Is it 10rds max for BOTH center fire and rim fire guns?

technique
10-17-2009, 1:24 PM
Don't use it...they shouldn't have included it, you don't want that hassle. Like I said in my earlier post...If they are legal previously owned .22 mags (30rnds) you can use them.

You can use pre-ban mags in featureless type centerfire guns...NOT ones with BBs.

sspen003
10-17-2009, 1:40 PM
Don't use it...they shouldn't have included it, you don't want that hassle. Like I said in my earlier post...If they are legal previously owned .22 mags (30rnds) you can use them.

You can use pre-ban mags in featureless type centerfire guns...NOT ones with BBs.

You cant use preban mags with a bulletbutton?

technique
10-17-2009, 1:43 PM
You cant use preban mags with a bulletbutton?

Un-less they are 10rnd prebans.
Any magazine over 10rnds in a BB build is a felony.

You need to build a featureless for using those.

lorax3
10-17-2009, 1:50 PM
If we just look at 12276.1 then the limitation for ten rounds on a fixed magazine build only applies to semiautomatic centerfire rifles and semi-auto pistols.

So you can use 10+ round magazines in a rimfire AR rifle with or without a bullet button as it would not be an AW.

Since I am so used to the bullet button and do not want to invite more trouble I would keep a bullet button in place if it was just a drop in conversion kit.

I would feel much safer with a dedicated .22 upper and detachable mags as there would be no question if it was 'centerfire'.

That is only 12276.1. All 12020 large-capacity mag rules still apply.

rugit
10-17-2009, 1:53 PM
what about this situation? say i order a .22lr conversion kit that is suppose to come with a low cap 10 rounder but instead i open it up to find a std. cap 30 rounder. it isn't illegal to possess the magazine and since it wasn't my fault that the mag showed up at my door, is it still illegal??

technique
10-17-2009, 2:01 PM
what about this situation? say i order a .22lr conversion kit that is suppose to come with a low cap 10 rounder but instead i open it up to find a std. cap 30 rounder. it isn't illegal to possess the magazine and since it wasn't my fault that the mag showed up at my door, is it still illegal??

possession is never illegal. Unless you admit to committing a crime involving importing, mfging, borrowing, buying, lending, selling...etc

sspen003
10-17-2009, 2:15 PM
possession is never illegal. Unless you admit to committing a crime involving importing, mfging, borrowing, buying, lending, selling...etc

Thanks for all the info. Didnt know about the BB thing and prebans

Northern Lights
10-17-2009, 3:22 PM
Still a little unclear.. If you have a .22 rifle can you use 10rd+ mags (that are not pre-ban). I guess my question is: does the 10rd limit apply to just center fire guns, or does it apply to rim fire guns as well?

technique
10-17-2009, 3:27 PM
Still a little unclear.. If you have a .22 rifle can you use 10rd+ mags (that are not pre-ban). I guess my question is: does the 10rd limit apply to just center fire guns, or does it apply to rim fire guns as well?


Yes you can...in a rimfire.

So buying, selling, manufacturing, lending...etc high cap mags after 2000 is against the law...just so you are clear on this.

Northern Lights
10-17-2009, 3:38 PM
Thanks for the help.

So (hypothetically speaking) if one day a 30rd .22lr AR mag just happened to show up at my front door I could technically use it (b/c i didn't buy or borrow it ect., I just found it and picked it up) with an AR that has a .22lr conversion bolt in it. Is this correct?

Even if this is correct I realize that it is considerably "gray" and probably isn't a good idea to mess around with... might be hard to explain all the details to a non-informed officer....:rolleyes:

CHS
10-17-2009, 3:49 PM
Still a little unclear.. If you have a .22 rifle can you use 10rd+ mags (that are not pre-ban). I guess my question is: does the 10rd limit apply to just center fire guns, or does it apply to rim fire guns as well?

The 10rd limit applies to MAGAZINES. Not guns. With the exception of a fixed magazine rifle or handgun.

You can use magazines greater than 10rd's in ANY firearm in which it's legal to use them. Like a featureless centerfire, registered AW's, rimfire, normal handguns, etc.

I run my 25rd BDM's in my dedicated AR-22 all the time.

Northern Lights
10-17-2009, 4:06 PM
So.... I'm not allowed to buy or transfer a .22lr hi cap mag. However if I happened to find one (left at the range for instance) can I use it?

Sorry for all the questions, but I just don't fully understand the letter of the law

CHS
10-17-2009, 4:37 PM
So.... I'm not allowed to buy or transfer a .22lr hi cap mag. However if I happened to find one (left at the range for instance) can I use it?

You can't buy, import, sell, or transfer a hi-cap mag.

But if you acquire one without breaking the law, then you may lawfully use it in your AR-22 or AR with .22 conversion kit.

Vinz
10-17-2009, 6:09 PM
So.... I'm not allowed to buy or transfer a .22lr hi cap mag. However if I happened to find one (left at the range for instance) can I use it?

Sorry for all the questions, but I just don't fully understand the letter of the lawI'd call that a form or transfer as it was left there and you took possesion...if did not get there from scratch. IE grown on tree then fell to your lap. LOL

You can say it was left to you by the gun gods as I don't believe religious beliefs would be questioned.
vinz

CHS
10-17-2009, 7:26 PM
I'd call that a form or transfer as it was left there and you took possesion...if did not get there from scratch. IE grown on tree then fell to your lap. LOL


"Finding" a mag is in absolutely no way shape or form a "transfer". It's a lawful acquisition of a hi-cap mag.

Hell, hit up the LEO ranges at Burron Canyon during the week and you'll find all kinds of hi-cap mags they leave behind or even throw away. It's not illegal to take them home.

nrakid88
10-17-2009, 9:48 PM
Hell, hit up the LEO ranges at Burron Canyon during the week and you'll find all kinds of hi-cap mags they leave behind or even throw away. It's not illegal to take them home.

Wow, i never thought in my whole life I woould ever go dumpster diving... now I know I will and where it will happen

leelaw
10-17-2009, 11:26 PM
"Finding" a mag is in absolutely no way shape or form a "transfer". It's a lawful acquisition of a hi-cap mag.

Hell, hit up the LEO ranges at Burron Canyon during the week and you'll find all kinds of hi-cap mags they leave behind or even throw away. It's not illegal to take them home.

Civil code, misappropriation of found property. Needs to be turned into LEA.

kAnJii
10-17-2009, 11:56 PM
Tech, I have a real grey question, hopefully you can explain this. If it says "caliber .22lr" on a listed AW lower, is this lower legal to use?

technique
10-18-2009, 12:04 AM
Is this a Registered AW or are you asking about importing a listed lower?

leelaw
10-18-2009, 12:18 AM
Tech, I have a real grey question, hopefully you can explain this. If it says "caliber .22lr" on a listed AW lower, is this lower legal to use?

It depends on what the rest of the lower says.

If it says "Colt AR-15" then no, it's not.

Additionally, the markings on the lower receiver do not denote what caliber the rifle is. A .22lr lower can accept a centerfire upper, so it does not prevent a rifle assembled as such from being a centerfire rifle.

Likewise, a lower marked with a centerfire caliber is not automatically a centerfire rifle until it is fully assembled with a centerfire upper attached. Were a rimfire upper to become attached to that particular lower, it would be a rimfire rifle.

kAnJii
10-18-2009, 12:43 AM
So for instance, if it was a Colt AR which its model is on the AW list, but was sold with a rimfire upper and mags and says caliber .22lr on the lower. Is it a legal rimfire?

leelaw
10-18-2009, 1:22 AM
It's a rimfire rifle, but banned by name (Colt AR-15 (all)) under legislation, and thus still banned. The banned-by-name portion of AW law disregards centerfire vs rimfire.

kAnJii
10-18-2009, 2:20 AM
So its banned period. Get rid of the lower and use an OLL.

NeoWeird
10-18-2009, 2:29 AM
Just be sure it is in fact a banned lower. As far as I know, Colt doesn't make a banned lower that is marked as a .22 on the lower. They make their 22 AR style rifle, which is legal in all forms, and there is a good chance if your gun says "Colt" and "22 LR" on the lower, it is one of those. And a little FYI, you can't change the uppers/lowers on those as they don't swap with other uppers.

Hayashi Killian
10-18-2009, 4:47 AM
NeoWeird: Read what leelaw said. The banned AW list makes no distinction between centrefire and rimfire, it is simply a banned rifle list. So if it's a Colt AR-15, regardless of whether or not it's capable of firing 5.56mm or .22LR, it's still a named assault weapon and therefore illegal unless registered. The list bans receivers by name, so if you had a Colt AR-15, you could strip out the lower but leave the upper, parts kit and the rest and turn over the lower.

NeoWeird
10-18-2009, 5:31 AM
NeoWeird: Read what leelaw said. The banned AW list makes no distinction between centrefire and rimfire, it is simply a banned rifle list. So if it's a Colt AR-15, regardless of whether or not it's capable of firing 5.56mm or .22LR, it's still a named assault weapon and therefore illegal unless registered. The list bans receivers by name, so if you had a Colt AR-15, you could strip out the lower but leave the upper, parts kit and the rest and turn over the lower.

Yes, that is true, but go back a couple posts and look at what the poster asking the question says about the markings on his lower.

Tech, I have a real grey question, hopefully you can explain this. If it says "caliber .22lr" on a listed AW lower, is this lower legal to use?

I am unaware of ANY Colt AR-15 lowers (he later mentions it's a Colt) that have the words "caliber .22lr" on them. As far as I know, Colt only marked .223 and 9mm. In fact, I don't think there are ANY listed lowers that are marked "caliber .22lr" as there weren't any factory only .22 rifles at the time. There was the Ciener kit, the Colt kit, and a couple military units but that was it. The Olympic Arms Plinkster or whatever it was called MAY have had .22 listed on it with other calibers, but I highly doubt there are ANY listed receivers that are marked "caliber .22lr"

There is the chance however that the poster is confussing his "Colt M4" in .22LR made by Umarex for a real AR-15 receiver/rifle. The Umarex "Colt M4" is legal in all regards and is NOT a listed AW. It is also NOT an AR-15 and doesn't use AR-15 parts which is why I mentioned not being able to swap uppers or lowers if the poster thought it was a listed gun.

That's why I told him to make sure it's actually a listed receiver, and not the Umarex. I mentioned this because the Umarex LOOKS like an AR-15, is marked "Colt M4" and if you see "Colt (all)" on the list you might THINK it's a listed gun, and it is marked "caliber .22lr". I am betting my money on the fact that the poster bought a Umarex, found out about OLLs after the fact, and is now panicing that they have an illegeal weapon when in fact they have something 100% legal.

That's why I said to make sure it is in fact a listed receiver and not the Umarex.

Hayashi Killian
10-18-2009, 6:12 AM
The problem you're making is that you're getting hung up over markings.

Markings for caliber have absolutely ZERO, ZIP, NADA, ZILCH, CERO meaning as far as the law is concerned. I can mark a receiver as being capable of firing .50BMG but unless it's actually chambered for .50BMG, it has absolutely ZERO weight.

CHS
10-18-2009, 8:18 AM
Markings for caliber have absolutely ZERO, ZIP, NADA, ZILCH, CERO meaning as far as the law is concerned. I can mark a receiver as being capable of firing .50BMG but unless it's actually chambered for .50BMG, it has absolutely ZERO weight.

Just to further reinforce this, an LMT M203 grenade launcher RECEIVER, without the barrel, is a Title 1 firearm that you and I may legally purchase and own.

However, the receiver is also marked "LMT M203 40mm Grenade Launcher".

Receiver markings don't matter.

paratroop
10-18-2009, 10:37 AM
i think neo is just pointing out the fact that because it does say "caliber 22lr" he should double check to see if it is in fact on the ban list. because it might not be what that fella thinks it is. the markings were just a clue, not a justification.

Vinz
10-18-2009, 10:43 AM
i think neo is just pointing out the fact that because it does say "caliber 22lr" he should double check to see if it is in fact on the ban list. because it might not be what that fella thinks it is. the markings were just a clue, not a justification.

It is listed as Colt M4 and is a dedicated .22 rimfire so that would keep it off the list. Interesting question though.....


vinz

NeoWeird
10-18-2009, 1:58 PM
I'm glad someone is finally seeing the point I'm making.

Let's step out of OLLs and give an example. If someone came on here saying "I just bought an M16 at Toys-R-Us before I knew they were illegal. Am I going to jail?!" the average person would be all but certain that the person purchased a toy/capgun/airsoft/etc and that the gun wasn't illegal. The person may THINK they have an M16, but what they really have is a toy.

Now back to this topic. Poster comes in saying "I just bought a Colt AR-15 marked as "caliber .22lr" at X gun shop. Am I going to jail?!" You guys are jumping the gun and saying it's illegal. What I'm trying to convey is that there are NO Colt listed/banned lowers marked "caliber .22lr". Period. So either (1) the poster doesn't have what they think they have or (2) they have a Colt that is not banned. Either way they need to check and determine EXACTLY what they have. The poster may THINK they have an AR-15, but what they actually have is the Umarex "Colt M4".

If you ask me, it sounds like that's whats happening here. The Umarex "Colt M4" is neither an AR-15 or AR-15 series receiver nor is capable of being an assault weapon by configuration (it's also NOT a Colt for that matter). Or it might be a possible outcome that the person does in fact have some obscure/new Colt lower that is marked "caliber .22lr" and is not listed and then with it configured as a rimfire it wouldn't be an assault by configuration.

The only way I can see it being illegal, logically, is that either the person has a receiver that someone, for who knows what reason, had it remarked to say "caliber .22lr" or it's some new offering, which I highly doubt since Colt has the licensing agreement with Umarex for their rimfire gun. It's FAR more likely that the person is confused as to what they actually have.

kAnJii
10-18-2009, 3:38 PM
This lower which is hypothetical, has caliber .22 lr markings. If the AW list marks this name and model for example, Colt AR-15 (all models or all rifles), is this lower technically legal because it is a rimfire or is it illegal because the AW list marks it as (all models or all rifles). Hope this clears it up a bit. Thus is an example.... I guess I could have said acme mfg model tweety bird.

leelaw
10-18-2009, 3:51 PM
This lower which is hypothetical, has caliber .22 lr markings. If the AW list marks this name and model for example, Colt AR-15 (all models or all rifles), is this lower technically legal because it is a rimfire or is it illegal because the AW list marks it as (all models or all rifles). Hope this clears it up a bit. Thus is an example.... I guess I could have said acme mfg model tweety bird.

Illegal - banned by name.

Rimfire vs centerfire doesn't enter into the equation of "is this rifle banned by name, or not?"

Rimfire vs centerfire is for evaluating if the firearm is a category three (banned-by-feature) assault weapon.

leelaw
10-18-2009, 3:53 PM
Now back to this topic. Poster comes in saying "I just bought a Colt AR-15 marked as "caliber .22lr" at X gun shop. Am I going to jail?!" You guys are jumping the gun and saying it's illegal. What I'm trying to convey is that there are NO Colt listed/banned lowers marked "caliber .22lr". Period. So either (1) the poster doesn't have what they think they have or (2) they have a Colt that is not banned. Either way they need to check and determine EXACTLY what they have. The poster may THINK they have an AR-15, but what they actually have is the Umarex "Colt M4".


It's been pretty clear that this talk of a Colt AR15 .22lr has been about a hypothetical firearm since the beginning about halfway throught he thread, and not the Umarex/Colt .22lr AR look-alikes, which are not banned AWs, and are also not AR-15 or AR-15 "series" rifles due to significant design differences.

If it says "caliber .22lr" on a listed AW lower, is this lower legal to use?

In response to this question I brought up the example of a Colt lower labeled "COLT AR-15" and further marked .22lr, since it is clear that the Colt AR-15 is banned by name, and to show that the type of ammo which is fires is not considered in if it is a banned AW (cat 1,2 vs cat 3 AWs)