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eltee
10-17-2009, 8:19 AM
If a private party sends an FFL a gun for inspection or repair, can the FFL send it directly back to the same person or must it be to an FFL?

If it has to be to an FFL only and its going to California, then I presume that CFLC must be implemented, the original gun owner will have to wait 10 days for his own gun back and will have to pay DROS fees and FFL service fees? :confused:

freakshow10mm
10-17-2009, 8:23 AM
Yes, direct. It's a repair, not a transfer.

tenpercentfirearms
10-17-2009, 8:36 AM
You ask a clear question and then you ask a confusing question.

People can send guns to an FFL or gunsmith all they want and the FFL or gunsmith can send them right back to the same address.

A personal can bring a gun to an FFL or a gunsmith for repair and the FFL can hand it right back.

The only time a CFLC is required is when an FFL receives a gun from another 01 or 07 FFL whether in or out of state. An FFL sending a gun back to Stag for repair requires a CFLC on the return, but if a private party sends it to Stag, no FFL or CFLC is required for return unless the firearm is replaced with a new one.

kemasa
10-17-2009, 9:51 AM
Are you talking about sending it to a FFL or a gunsmith?

You can send a firearm directly to a gunsmith and the gunsmith can ship it directly back. You can also bring it to a FFL and the FFL can ship it to the gunsmith and then deliver it back without a waiting period and DROS.

If you are shipping it to a FFL, not a gunsmith, then it could be an issue.

freakshow10mm
10-17-2009, 10:07 AM
A gunsmith is an FFL.

kemasa
10-17-2009, 11:02 AM
But a FFL is not always a gunsmith.

freakshow10mm
10-17-2009, 11:10 AM
The law deals with FFLs. The fact whether the FFL is a gunsmith or does gunsmithing is meaningless.

kemasa
10-17-2009, 11:17 AM
Search for the word "gunsmith" in the Penal Code. There is a difference and in fact, the law does actually deal with specifically gunsmiths. It does NOT say to a FFL or firearms dealer.

freakshow10mm
10-17-2009, 11:27 AM
In order to be a gunsmith, one must obtain an FFL, no?

kemasa
10-17-2009, 12:15 PM
You could be a gunsmith without being a FFL, but then you would be quite limited in what you could do.

In order to be a police officer, you must obtain a drivers license.

freakshow10mm
10-17-2009, 12:16 PM
If you think that, the ATF would like a word with you.

kemasa
10-17-2009, 12:30 PM
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/gunsmith

A gunsmith is a person who repairs firearms (does not have to make firearms). There are legal definitions as well. I know of a gunsmith who does not have all the licenses, but they can still repair firearms and I would consider them to be a gunsmith. What such a person can not do is to have the firearm without the owner present and there is also issues with regards to charging money.

Do you consider an auto mechanic to only be someone who has all the licenses, permits, etc. and who charges money for their services?

ke6guj
10-17-2009, 12:44 PM
Ken,

CA defines gunsmith as the following.

12001(r)As used in this title, "gunsmith" means any person who is licensed as a dealer pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto, who is engaged primarily in the business of repairing firearms, or making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms, or the agent or employee of that person.

So, are you trying to say that an FFL isn't a gunsmith if his "primary business" isn't repairing firearms? That we can't ship to a FFL who does some gunsmithing/repair as a sideline to his main sales business?

kemasa
10-17-2009, 12:50 PM
"As used in this title", but that does not mean that it is the end all definition. Check out the definition of antique/C&R firearms, it changes from section to section.

As far as the Penal Code goes, that is what they mean and the general definition does not apply to what you can do with respect to the law. So just because you are a FFL, it does not mean that you are a gunsmith.

ke6guj
10-17-2009, 12:55 PM
"As used in this title", but that does not mean that it is the end all definition. Check out the definition of antique/C&R firearms, it changes from section to section..in this case, it would be the "end all" title-wide definition, since they don't further definite it in a "this section" basis.

kemasa
10-17-2009, 1:01 PM
Yes, but only with respect to the laws and how it is mentioned.

You can still be a gunsmith and not be licensed, which means that there are limits as to what you can do (the laws which allow gunsmiths to do things do not apply).

The point is that a FFL is not always a gunsmith, which is what this discussion started with.

freakshow10mm
10-17-2009, 1:30 PM
If you are a gunsmith and are not licensed you are violating federal law. That is my point. Every gunsmith must be licensed as an FFL. Period.

CFR 478.11:

Dealer. Any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail; any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms; or any person who is a pawnbroker. The term shall include any person who engages in such business or occupation on a part-time basis.

kemasa
10-18-2009, 9:30 AM
And if you are not in the "business"?

There is the legal definition and the common term.

Back to the original question. A FFL is not automatically a gunsmith, therefore the laws regarding returning firearms are different as you can include the sections which say what a gunsmith can do.

freakshow10mm
10-18-2009, 9:45 AM
If you are compensated for your work, the ATF says that's a business.

halifax
10-18-2009, 10:41 AM
And if you are not in the "business"?

There is the legal definition and the common term.

Back to the original question. A FFL is not automatically a gunsmith, therefore the laws regarding returning firearms are different as you can include the sections which say what a gunsmith can do.

If you are a gunsmith and are not licensed you are violating federal law. That is my point. Every gunsmith must be licensed as an FFL. Period.

CFR 478.11:

Dealer. Any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail; any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms; or any person who is a pawnbroker. The term shall include any person who engages in such business or occupation on a part-time basis.

Now you guys have me confused: Let's say a customer brings in a rifle and a scope late in the day . He wants me to mount it and zero it by test firing. That means I will be keeping it overnight which is OK because I have a 01FFL. I don't work on any part of the ignition systems of firearms because I don't have the insurance coverage for that. I charge my customer for the time and materials.

Since I'm not meeting the implied definitions of a gunsmith under CFR 478.11, I'm not meeting the definition of what a gunsmith is and I can't return the rifle to the owner without a DROS. :confused:

I think I'd prefer to go with freakshow's take on this and just return the rifle:

If you are compensated for your work, the ATF says that's a business.

freakshow10mm
10-18-2009, 10:49 AM
Now you guys have me confused: Let's say a customer brings in a rifle and a scope late in the day . He wants me to mount it and zero it by test firing. That means I will be keeping it overnight which is OK because I have a 01FFL. I don't work on any part of the ignition systems of firearms because I don't have the insurance coverage for that. I charge my customer for the time and materials.

Since I'm not meeting the implied definitions of a gunsmith under CFR 478.11, I'm not meeting the definition of what a gunsmith is and I can't return the rifle to the owner without a DROS. :confused:

If you mount a scope on a customer's gun that is gunsmithing. Whether you represent yourself as a gunsmith or not is not the issue. Mounting a scope on a firearm is an act of gunsmithing, you are compensated in some way, that's a business activity, you must have an FFL.

DROS I cannot speak to. Federally there is no transfer taking place so no 4473 is required if given to the owner. Whether it needs to be DROSd again as a transfer is your expertise. Tenpercent seems to imply that DROS is not required in this instance of gunsmithing.

kemasa
10-18-2009, 11:00 AM
I think there is a section regarding a customer giving a firearm to a FFL for purposes of repair, although typically it involves shipping it to a gunsmith or manufacturer.

In other aspects, if a gunsmith retires and closes the business and is no longer considered a gunsmith under the law, but continues to do firearm repairs for people at no charge and only has the firearm when the owner is around, that person is not considered a gunsmith under the common definition of what a gunsmith is and is violating the law?

While the person is not legally considered a gunsmith business, I would still consider the person a gunsmith.

freakshow10mm
10-18-2009, 11:07 AM
He's not a gunsmith, he just a guy that works on guns.

kemasa
10-18-2009, 11:12 AM
Well, that is your view, but I would still consider him a gunsmith, but not a gunsmith business.

The definition of gunsmith goes back much further than the CA Penal Code and back further than the founding of this country. In the dictionary, there is no requirement that the person gets pay for it or has a business.

See also:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/gunsmith

gun⋅smith
  /ˈgʌnˌsmɪθ/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [guhn-smith] Show IPA

–noun
a person who makes or repairs firearms.