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View Full Version : Illegal to store rounds in MIAD grip -- FUD or not?


winwithagrin
10-16-2009, 11:22 PM
I own an OLL rifle with a MIAD grip. For those of you who have never seen one, it looks like this:

http://www.magpul.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=78_103&products_id=213

One of the nifty features is that you can keep various items stored in the grip. The grip comes standard from the factory with the "three-round storage container," but there is one for an extra bolt, one for extra batteries, etc.

Anyhow, I was told at a gun store recently that it would actually be illegal to keep any rounds in the three-round storage container since that would constitute a "tool" for my BB and it was illegal for the BB "tool" (of any kind) to be attached to the rifle in any way.

Is this true?

luckystrike
10-16-2009, 11:25 PM
well i know transporting would be a no-no. but its just 3 rounds i wouldnt test it.

dantodd
10-16-2009, 11:29 PM
deleted. Gene posted the accurate information down in post 14.


My information was not completely accurate so I am deleting it to prevent anyone from accidentally following wrong advice.

AndrewMendez
10-16-2009, 11:31 PM
Where are you referring to? The range? At home?

ImpliedConsent
10-16-2009, 11:32 PM
well i know transporting would be a no-no. but its just 3 rounds i wouldnt test it.

For transport, I was under the impression that it doesn't matter if any ammunition is attached to an unloaded long arm - so long as it isn't in a position from which it can be fired (in the chamber; in a mag in the magwell; etc).

If I'm wrong, please clear me up, as I have a cartridge holder on my rifle's stock which I expect to keep full during transport, though the rifle itself will be unloaded.

To the specific complications of having the BB tool attached to the gun, I think it'd be tough to prosecute (if the gun is loaded, it has the same tool "attached", for instance).

dantodd
10-16-2009, 11:33 PM
well i know transporting would be a no-no. but its just 3 rounds i wouldnt test it.

Why would transporting be a no-no? A bullet must be "in a position to be fired" to be considered loaded. As long as it's isn't a magazine inserted into the mag well you should be fine. The case law was very similar to this, it was a shotgun with a filled, stock mounted shell holder which was ruled to not be loaded. However, as I said it is probably not worth the drama.

Dr. Peter Venkman
10-16-2009, 11:38 PM
Why would transporting be a no-no? A bullet must be "in a position to be fired" to be considered loaded. As long as it's isn't a magazine inserted into the mag well you should be fine. The case law was very similar to this, it was a shotgun with a filled, stock mounted shell holder which was ruled to not be loaded. However, as I said it is probably not worth the drama.

People v. Clark

luckystrike
10-16-2009, 11:46 PM
Why would transporting be a no-no? A bullet must be "in a position to be fired" to be considered loaded. As long as it's isn't a magazine inserted into the mag well you should be fine. The case law was very similar to this, it was a shotgun with a filled, stock mounted shell holder which was ruled to not be loaded. However, as I said it is probably not worth the drama.

just because your suposed to transport firearms and ammuniton in seperate compartments (guns in the trunk & ammo in the front) thats how I do it anyway, just to avoid getting further inconvienced, harassed.
I like to keep my wasted time to a low.

:D

ke6guj
10-17-2009, 12:13 AM
just because your suposed to transport firearms and ammuniton in seperate compartments (guns in the trunk & ammo in the front) thats how I do it anyway, just to avoid getting further inconvienced, harassed.
I like to keep my wasted time to a low.

:DIf you want to do that in an attempt to minimize incovenience, go ahead. But there is no legal requirement to do so.

dantodd
10-17-2009, 1:01 AM
just because your suposed to transport firearms and ammuniton in seperate compartments (guns in the trunk & ammo in the front) thats how I do it anyway, just to avoid getting further inconvienced, harassed.
I like to keep my wasted time to a low.


There is no problem with doing it that way but there is no "supposed" to about it. The law is quite clear that you can zip up your gun rug with a couple filled magazines inside with your pistol. In fact, it may be considered more of a "gray area" to have your filled magazines in the unlocked outside pockets of the rug.

dantodd
10-17-2009, 1:02 AM
People v. Clark

For the life of me I couldn't remember Clark's name. It's late. Must be time for bed.

dieselpower
10-17-2009, 1:06 AM
To the OP...FUD. There is no requirement in the law stating the tool can not be: attached, chained, stored, or dangling from the weapon. It just has to be a tool separate from the mechanism that releases the magazine from the firearm.

hence detachable via tool only.

store the tool anywhere you want, as long as it is not stored by attaching it to the BB...lol

gun toting monkeyboy
10-17-2009, 8:29 AM
You can have your long gun in the front seat with you, with spare ammo rolling around in the foot well, and triple bandoleers strewn over you like a Pancho Villa style Christmas tree, and not be breaing the law. As long as none are in a position to be fired, and you aren't brandishing it, or in a school zone, it is perfectly legal. It may not be wise, but it is legal. Back in college, I had a Firebird, with no trunk. We used to pile the back full of rifles and ammo, and head to the range. All in plain view. We never had any problems at all. And curiously few tailgaters for some reason...

-Mb

hoffmang
10-17-2009, 9:18 AM
It's FUD.

The two issues brought up in this thread are "is it loaded" and "can I attach the tool for my bullet button to my rifle."

Live rounds in the grip are almost exactly like the shotgun shells in the stock of the shotgun in People v. Clark (http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/People-v-Clark-(1996).pdf). The wiki has a full detail on "loaded in California (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Defining_loaded_in_California)."

As to attaching the tool for a bullet button to the rifle, the rule of thumb here is pretty easy. There is no restriction to having the tool attached to the rifle as long as the tool can't cause a magazine to detach without being removed from the rifle. Rounds in the grip would be ok. A dummy round on a long string tied to the stock would be bad as you would not have to remove the tool from the rifle to actuate the bullet button.

-Gene

dfletcher
10-17-2009, 9:32 AM
It's FUD.

As to attaching the tool for a bullet button to the rifle, the rule of thumb here is pretty easy. There is no restriction to having the tool attached to the rifle as long as the tool can't cause a magazine to detach without being removed from the rifle. Rounds in the grip would be ok. A dummy round on a long string tied to the stock would be bad as you would not have to remove the tool from the rifle to actuate the bullet button.

-Gene

In addition to ammo, I presume there are other things that can be stored in a grip that could serve to depress the BB. I carry an extra trigger and hammer pin and safety lever among other items, each of which could be used to depress the BB mag release. Hadn't really considered them as anything other than spare parts, glad to know they are.

Amacias805
10-17-2009, 1:26 PM
It's FUD.

The two issues brought up in this thread are "is it loaded" and "can I attach the tool for my bullet button to my rifle."

As to attaching the tool for a bullet button to the rifle, the rule of thumb here is pretty easy. There is no restriction to having the tool attached to the rifle as long as the tool can't cause a magazine to detach without being removed from the rifle. Rounds in the grip would be ok. A dummy round on a long string tied to the stock would be bad as you would not have to remove the tool from the rifle to actuate the bullet button.

-Gene

while i wouldn't leave my tool attached to the firearm. one dealer that that goes to most gun shows is known for keeping there Ak radlock tools attached to the trigger guard so people can see how the lock works...

they apparently haven't had any problems

hoffmang
10-17-2009, 2:40 PM
while i wouldn't leave my tool attached to the firearm. one dealer that that goes to most gun shows is known for keeping there Ak radlock tools attached to the trigger guard so people can see how the lock works...

they apparently haven't had any problems

Those that would mess with that dealer know he's well represented. I suggest others not follow his lead off his display table into the field.

The LEOs on the job at shows are a bit more savvy than your average city cop and many of the 58 DA's.

-Gene

Amacias805
10-17-2009, 8:00 PM
Those that would mess with that dealer know he's well represented. I suggest others not follow his lead off his display table into the field.

The LEOs on the job at shows are a bit more savvy than your average city cop and many of the 58 DA's.

-Gene

so it should be perfectly legal, but due to the average firearm knowledge of most city cops, and the incompetent DOJ that has lets the 58 DA's come up with there own interpretations, it would be stupid to do so without lots of lawyer money?

hoffmang
10-17-2009, 8:53 PM
so it should be perfectly legal, but due to the average firearm knowledge of most city cops, and the incompetent DOJ that has lets the 58 DA's come up with there own interpretations, it would be stupid to do so without lots of lawyer money?

It's a grey area. I personally would not want to defend a rifle that has a tool attached to a rifle in such a way that the tool does not have to be removed from the rifle so as to actuate the bullet button. That rifle may have the capacity to accept any ammunition feeding device that can removed from the rifle without the use of a tool.

That the dealer in question gets away with it does not mean you should do it at yourself.

-Gene

Amacias805
10-18-2009, 1:29 AM
That the dealer in question gets away with it does not mean you should do it at yourself.

-Gene

I realize that. I Said in my first post that i would never do that, but was still curious about whether the dealer has ever had any problems with it

cbn620
10-18-2009, 3:59 AM
That's some good FUD... It's the kind that catches you off guard and you go, "Woah! I never thought of that, it must be true!"

Like all FUD though it doesn't hold much water. Correct me if I'm wrong by all means, but if this were true then simply having ammo in the magazine would be illegal! That's a "tool" being "attached" to the rifle, right?

blackberg
10-18-2009, 7:55 AM
I realize that. I Said in my first post that i would never do that, but was still curious about whether the dealer has ever had any problems with it

well if it was a featureless rifle, then he can have
a maglock with the tool in it and it would be a non issue, correct?
-bb

CSACANNONEER
10-18-2009, 8:03 AM
well if it was a featureless rifle, then he can have
a maglock with the tool in it and it would be a non issue, correct?
-bb

Yes, it would be great for display. The one problem which could occure though is that someone might think it's OK to introduce a +10 round mag to it because, it's featureless. Well, we all know that doing so would be creating a featureless AW.

tombinghamthegreat
10-18-2009, 11:10 AM
well if it was a featureless rifle, then he can have
a maglock with the tool in it and it would be a non issue, correct?
-bb

why? if it is featureless why not just have the rifle have a detachable mag and just avoid the bb?

blackberg
10-18-2009, 1:00 PM
why? if it is featureless why not just have the rifle have a detachable mag and just avoid the bb?

someone mentioned a dealer at a gunshow displaying an AK BB, and having the tool inserted to show potential customers how it works,and the gray area about it, there is no gray area if AK is featureless, and you are using the BB for display purposes.

-bb

dwtt
10-18-2009, 4:21 PM
Anyhow, I was told at a gun store recently that it would actually be illegal to keep any rounds in the three-round storage container since that would constitute a "tool" for my BB and it was illegal for the BB "tool" (of any kind) to be attached to the rifle in any way.
Which gun store is this?

goober
10-18-2009, 4:31 PM
That's some good FUD... It's the kind that catches you off guard and you go, "Woah! I never thought of that, it must be true!"

Like all FUD though it doesn't hold much water. Correct me if I'm wrong by all means, but if this were true then simply having ammo in the magazine would be illegal! That's a "tool" being "attached" to the rifle, right?

my thoughts exactly. by that logic even having a single round in the chamber and an empty mag would constitute a tool attached to the rifle by which the (empty) mag could be removed. :rolleyes:

JeepsRcool
10-18-2009, 4:31 PM
If one had a BB tool for an AR and it was magnetic and would stay in place, would you say this is a no go?

hoffmang
10-18-2009, 4:54 PM
If one had a BB tool for an AR and it was magnetic and would stay in place, would you say this is a no go?

Inside California, absolutely if it stayed in place on the magazine release. If it just otherwise attaches to the rifle it's ok because you'd have to remove it from the rifle to use it to operate the BB.

-Gene

M1A Rifleman
10-19-2009, 9:59 AM
just because your suposed to transport firearms and ammuniton in seperate compartments (guns in the trunk & ammo in the front) :D

This is NOT a requirement under the law. It may be your preference, but there is no requirement that ammo and firearms be transported separately in a vehicle.

winwithagrin
10-19-2009, 10:08 AM
Which gun store is this?

Irvington Arms in Fremont. Despite this (supposedly) faulty legal advice, I've always been very satisfied with their service.