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cal3gunner
10-15-2009, 6:31 PM
...

ke6guj
10-15-2009, 6:34 PM
you can do that if you home state allows for it. But guess what, CA doesn't, so we can't buy long guns out of state. There is an exemption for some C&R rifles, but for the most part, can't be done legally.

deebix
10-15-2009, 6:40 PM
If I am a california resident and I go over to nevada and buy a rifle, but leave it there, am I good to go? Can I do such a thing in the first place?

bwiese
10-15-2009, 6:46 PM
If I am a california resident and I go over to nevada and buy a rifle, but leave it there, am I good to go? Can I do such a thing in the first place?

Nope.

quick draw mcgraw
10-15-2009, 6:58 PM
I spoke to California DOJ/ATF about this a year or so ago. I was told that it is not illegal for a California resident to own a listed AW so long as it is not "possessed" in California. However, I tried several times in vain to get them to put that in writing. I also spoke to a number of out of state dealers and manufacturers (Bushmaster, Wilson Combat, DPMS, and Impact Guns) and while they all agreed that it was not illegal and were sympathetic, none would sell me a firearm even with a signed disclaimer that the firearm would NOT be possessed in California, but rather would be legally stored and used in Nevada. All were worried that it would cause them problems with DOJ and/or ATF. Maybe you can find an out of state friend or family member who is willing to buy it and store it so you can "borrow" it when you visit.

bwiese
10-15-2009, 7:21 PM
I spoke to California DOJ/ATF about this a year or so ago. I was told that it is not illegal for a California resident to own a listed AW so long as it is not "possessed" in California.

You don't need a DOJ letter. Some of this is inferrable from the old DOJ AW "reg-a-gun" FAQ.

CA AW law only regulates possession & acquisition of an AW (named or by feature) in CA and not your possession of it outside CA.

Yes, if you had an AW before 2000 and didn't register it and moved it outside CA (say, Reno), fine.

If you moved to CA after 2000 and thus couldn't legally bring your AW into CA you could also leave the AW safely stored in NV. [If it was an unlisted AW, you could also modify the features to render it an non-AW and then bring it into CA.]

The problem is, you as a Californian cannot acquire a gun outside CA and can't acquire a listed AW inside CA, so you're screwed - unless you have true dual-state residency.

However, I tried several times in vain to get them to put that in writing.You don't need it in writing. And the person you're talking to there is not a lawyer, is essentially a glorified file clerk, and has far less knowledge of AW laws than many Calgunners.

I also spoke to a number of out of state dealers and manufacturers (Bushmaster, Wilson Combat, DPMS, and Impact Guns) and while they all agreed that it was not illegal and were sympathetic, none would sell me a firearm even with a signed disclaimer that the firearm would NOT be possessed in California, but rather would be legally stored and used in Nevada.


Again, irrelevant. Unless you have legit dual-residency, you can't acquire a gun outside CA -- and inside CA, you can't acquire a banned gun.

cbn620
10-15-2009, 7:37 PM
Nope.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. I see no reason why he couldn't just buy it there and leave it there. If it never comes into California, what would the harm be? Maybe he has property or family out there?

Also, why couldn't a person buy a long gun out of state in person, and then merely have it shipped and DROS'd through a CA FFL?

I'm only asking because I don't know. Would love to hear a clarification.

ke6guj
10-15-2009, 7:44 PM
I'm not sure I understand what you mean. I see no reason why he couldn't just buy it there and leave it there. If it never comes into California, what would the harm be? Maybe he has property or family out there?
because federal law does not allow the Nevada FFL to sell to a CA resident.

And federal law does not allow a Nevada non-licensee to sell to a resident of a different state either.

(B1) To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA? [Back]


A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]



(B2) From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA? [Back]

A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]



(B3) May an unlicensed person obtain a firearm from an out-of-State source if the person arranges to obtain the firearm through a licensed dealer in the purchaser’s own State? [Back]


A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-State source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's State of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and 922(b)(3)]

Also, why couldn't a person buy a long gun out of state in person, and then merely have it shipped and DROS'd through a CA FFL?
That is what many people do, and is legal to do so. YOu could go to a FFL in NV and pay for a CA-legal firearm and have the NV FFL ship it to your CA FFL to DROS it to you. You could also mail-order it and do the same thing.

advocatusdiaboli
10-15-2009, 7:46 PM
see no reason why he couldn't just buy it there and leave it there. If it never comes into California, what would the harm be?

Because he is a California state resident and subject, therefore, to the laws of California.And law specifically states that it is an illegal act for a Californian to do that from what I have been told here in this forum. The same reason, extreme case I'll grant you but it is for illustrative purposes, a US citizen cannot go join the Taliban and think they are immune to our laws if they stay over there--there is a not-so-bright kid who paid a big price for that failure to understand a while back if you recall. Same principle and, if some anti-gunners had there way, same severity of consequences ;-)

jaq
10-15-2009, 7:51 PM
...
The problem is, you as a Californian cannot acquire a gun outside CA and can't acquire a listed AW inside CA, so you're screwed - unless you have true dual-state residency.

... Unless you have legit dual-residency, you can't acquire a gun outside CA -- and inside CA, you can't acquire a banned gun.

Please kindly expand on this "legit dual-residency" status you referred to. I did not believe it was possible.

ke6guj
10-15-2009, 7:53 PM
Please kindly expand on this "legit dual-residency" status you referred to. I did not believe it was possible.

From ATF again,

(B12) May a person (who is not an alien) who resides in one State and owns property in another State purchase a handgun in either State? [Back]

If a person maintains a home in 2 States and resides in both States for certain periods of the year, he or she may, during the period of time the person actually resides in a particular State, purchase a handgun in that State. However, simply owning property in another State does not qualify the person to purchase a handgun in that State.

[27 CFR 478.11]

thats the short answer. Long answer involves income taxes due in multiple states, DL in one state, ID in another state, etc. Dual-residency can be legally done, but it isn't just renting a hotel room for a week and thinking your a dual-resident.

cbn620
10-15-2009, 7:55 PM
I thank you guys for the info. This is honestly the first I've heard of it, believe it or not. I don't go out of state often so I have no personal experience with it, and yet I have heard all kinds of guys on these boards talking about having guns back in a free state.

ke6guj
10-15-2009, 8:02 PM
many of those you read about are CA residents who did not want to register their rifles as AW when they were banned. So, they took them out of state and stored them at a relatives house. Ownership never changed, so they still belong to the CA resident.

Or, it was a new resident who have firearms that weren't CA-legal, so they did the same thing, left them with a relative or friend. legal to do so since they still belong to the original person, the other person is just storing it for them.

That is not the same thing as a CA-resident going out of state to buy firearms and keep them stored there.

Quser.619
12-01-2009, 1:50 PM
Glad I saw this, I thought I could legally buy a hunting rifle - or other allowable non-AW long gun in CA - in another state & bring it back in since long guns didn't need to be registered here. Kind of shows the power of the roster lists & like.

Technical Ted
12-01-2009, 1:58 PM
The ATF's FFL Newsletter addressed this is December of 2002 and August of 2004.

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/ne...newsletter.pdf

“CONTIGUOUS STATE”

The phrase “contiguous state” no longer has
meaning under the Gun Control Act of 1968
(GCA), as amended. Nevertheless, it continues to
confuse many long-time firearms dealers,
especially when residents of other States visit
their gun shops. For those who may not be
familiar with this phrase, it appeared in the GCA
prior to 1986. The “contiguous state” exception
allowed FFLs to sell long guns to residents of
contiguous states if the purchaser’s State of
residence permitted such sale by law and the sale
complied with the legal conditions of sale in both
States. A State was “contiguous” to another State
if it was adjacent to (bordering) that State. For
example, Georgia and Alabama are in fact both
contiguous to Florida, and the GCA formally
recognized this and similar relationships.

In 1986, certain amendments to the GCA rendered
the phrase “contiguous state” obsolete and
without meaning for firearms dealers. Since
1986, licensed firearms dealers have been allowed
to sell a long gun over-the-counter to an
unlicensed resident of any State, provided (1) the
purchaser is not otherwise prohibited from
receiving or possessing a firearm under the GCA,
and (2) the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply
with the legal conditions of sale in the buyer’s
and seller’s States. http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/ne...sltr_aug04.pdf
CONTIGUOUS STATE – PART 2

In an article that appeared in the December 2002
edition of the FFL Newsletter, we advised FFLs
that the “contiguous state” provisions of the Gun
Control Act were amended in 1986, and that the
GCA allows dealers to sell or dispose of a long
gun to a resident of another state provided, (1) the
purchaser was not otherwise prohibited from
receiving or possessing a firearm under the GCA,
and ( 2) the sale, delivery and receipt fully comply
with the legal conditions of sale in the buyer’s and
seller’s States.

The condition of sale relating to compliance with
the applicable laws of both States cited above
continues to cause confusion among dealers,
particularly among those dealers who conduct
business in a State whose laws presently contain
language that allows “contiguous state” sales.

Historically, prior to the 1986 amendments to the
GCA, many States enacted provisions in their laws
that allowed their residents to acquire a long gun in
a contiguous State. For the most part, these State
law provisions were modeled after the contiguous
state provisions of the GCA. However, even
though the GCA was amended in 1986 to allow
the sale of long guns to residents of any State
pursuant to the conditions cited above, many States
have not yet amended their laws to reflect similar
language. ATF takes the position that if the laws
of a given State allow its residents to acquire a long
gun in a contiguous State, those laws also allow its
residents to acquire a long gun in any other State
where the laws of that State permit such
transactions, unless the language contained in that
State’s law expressly prohibits it residents from
acquiring a firearm outside that State. Questions
regarding particular State law provisions should be
referred to your local ATF office.

OHOD
12-01-2009, 2:11 PM
I was in Reno about a year ago and I saw a great 10/22 at the right price. I asked the guy if I could buy it. The first words out of his mouth were "What is your state of residence?" and I said "California" and he said "No" and walked away.

Sgt5811
12-01-2009, 2:49 PM
Well, I guess you could always go to AZ and buy FTF with only a bill of sale. You know, those silly little "straw purchase" loopholes. At least that one works. I don't know about Nevada though. Just make sure it's legal to own in CA.

Rooftop Voter
12-01-2009, 3:30 PM
good way to meet the ATF! Dont think people in Arizona dont think we'd try this - many ads I have seen online for FTF deals the seller wants to see an AZ DL!!! AZ gunshows have a warning about this right at the entrance...
Well, I guess you could always go to AZ and buy FTF with only a bill of sale. You know, those silly little "straw purchase" loopholes. At least that one works. I don't know about Nevada though. Just make sure it's legal to own in CA.

ke6guj
12-01-2009, 3:54 PM
Well, I guess you could always go to AZ and buy FTF with only a bill of sale. You know, those silly little "straw purchase" loopholes. At least that one works. I don't know about Nevada though. Just make sure it's legal to own in CA.

There would be at least one federal felony in that transaction.