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ren
10-15-2009, 6:29 PM
so the previous day i had attempted to get the rear take down spring into its location but the spring would not budge at all. i could not wait and wanted finish assembling the lower so i tried that detent mod by tapping a hole.. all went well until the bit snapped.. :mad:

what options am i left with?

technique
10-15-2009, 6:34 PM
This has happened before...See if you can find the original thread with the mod, it might be discussed in there...not sure.


My $0.02, the mods isn't worth doing....

Vinz
10-15-2009, 6:35 PM
holy crud.....try to hook up with an experienced Calgunner to lend a hand...removing broken taps are a beotch.

good luck.


vinz

Francis Marion
10-15-2009, 6:35 PM
A drill bit snapped? How about a photo, I'm not sure what you're referring to.
Blind hole or through hole?

missiontrails
10-15-2009, 6:39 PM
Bit snapped, so what... Just use KNS push button take-down pin for now on. Just clean-up anything hanging out of the hole and put your stock back on.

missiontrails
10-15-2009, 6:51 PM
Why risk more damage to the lower by trying to remove it? Just use a KNS. If a little is hanging out NOT FLUSH with the hole, carefully Dremel it until flush. Touch-up with flat black Birchwood Casey pen, even though you won't see anything with the endplate on there.

technique
10-15-2009, 6:56 PM
Is it sticking through the take down pin hole too?

ren
10-15-2009, 7:01 PM
no, i was tapping it then was reversing out and the bit snapped. its almost flush with the stock. wish i could have had the spring in a bit might have been solid.

missiontrails: i will look for that kns take down pin. does it still need the spring or no?

sevensix2x51
10-15-2009, 7:04 PM
if you can get a drill bit to cut that tap steel, why not drill the whole bugger out and tap it one size bigger?

missiontrails
10-15-2009, 7:50 PM
no, i was tapping it then was reversing out and the bit snapped. its almost flush with the stock. wish i could have had the spring in a bit might have been solid.

missiontrails: i will look for that kns take down pin. does it still need the spring or no?

NO. For takedown, it has it's own built in retractible detent balls. Just push the button and push it out. They are about $10.

ren
10-15-2009, 7:52 PM
looks like ordering the pin was the way to go. thanks again calgunners!

looks like i have to wait a few days longer to finish the build..:(

SoCalRandy
10-15-2009, 7:59 PM
looks like ordering the pin was the way to go. thanks again calgunners!

looks like i have to wait a few days longer to finish the build..:(

Where did you end up finding the KNS takedown pin?

akjunkie
10-15-2009, 8:01 PM
so the previous day i had attempted to get the rear take down spring into its location but the spring would not budge at all. i could not wait and wanted finish assembling the lower so i tried that detent mod by tapping a hole.. all went well until the bit snapped.. :mad:

what options am i left with?

Why wouldnt the spring go in in the hole???

And what brand/mfg Tap were you using? Good qualitySteel or some made in Chna/Swapmeeet special?

missiontrails
10-15-2009, 8:06 PM
Where did you end up finding the KNS takedown pin?

Rainier Arms, has the set for $17.95, or buy each individually. I bought the set, but I don't use the front pivot pin, I went with a Armalite National Match +.001 oversize pivot pin for that, it tightened up the upper and lower fit.

sv_1
10-15-2009, 8:19 PM
Was this with a tap handle or a power tool?

Fot
10-15-2009, 8:24 PM
http://www.mcmaster.com/#tap-extractors/=42u85i


These work pretty good for removing broken taps.

missiontrails
10-15-2009, 8:48 PM
Guys, turning his lower into a science project to remove the tap is just going to risk more damage... No point.

Rukus
10-15-2009, 9:29 PM
Don't feel bad, I did the same thing with my first build. KNS works perfect, dont stress anymore about it.

sspen003
10-15-2009, 9:32 PM
God be with you... Removing taps is the worst and usually ends with me chucking it against a wall.

redcliff
10-15-2009, 10:11 PM
http://www.mcmaster.com/#tap-extractors/=42u85i


These work pretty good for removing broken taps.

+1 for the proper tool for the job. Of course, drilling the proper size hole before using a tap and using the correct lubrication and technique will usually prevent it from happening in the first place, especially in aluminum.

While the KNS pin may be an acceptable work-around in this case, it wouldn't fly on one of my firearms (or race engines).

joelukehart
10-16-2009, 12:22 AM
Sounds like you got burned by cutting corners. Take it to a shop that does EDM. I took one of my ak's with a broken tap to a shop in Santa Ana and they fixed it in about an hour.

ren
10-16-2009, 2:41 PM
well I used a drill and had the lower on a vice block, drill was put on the lowest torque setting so it wouldn't snap when I started. I went to a machine shop told them what I was doing and they recommended a Irwin tap. getting in wasn't the problem it was getting out. I ordered the kns, should hve ordereded through rainier to get that deal on both pivot and rear.

redcliff
10-16-2009, 4:03 PM
When tapping an unthreaded hole, be sure to start with a taperred tap, and "worry" it in and out to prevent the chip formed from the cutting "crowding" the tap and causing it to break. Also be sure to use the proper cutting fluid; I use Alumicut on aluminum projects.

Bummer you had a problem and I hope the KNS pin works out.

sevensix2x51
10-16-2009, 4:06 PM
When tapping an unthreaded hole, be sure to start with a taperred tap, and "worry" it in and out to prevent the chip formed from the cutting "crowding" the tap and causing it to break. Also be sure to use the proper cutting fluid; I use Alumicut on aluminum projects.

+1, except ive never tried 'alumicut'. 'tapfree' works awesome on everything ive done, however...

SIGscout
10-16-2009, 4:38 PM
When tapping an unthreaded hole, be sure to start with a taperred tap, and "worry" it in and out to prevent the chip formed from the cutting "crowding" the tap and causing it to break. Also be sure to use the proper cutting fluid; I use Alumicut on aluminum projects.

Bummer you had a problem and I hope the KNS pin works out.

This works, I do alot of metal work as a building engineer and have had a few run-ins with things getting broken off in something or just stuck.
Some great info offered so far, especially: if you have any second thaughts, take it to somebody who's done this kind of work before.

Not only could you put a "beauty scar" on your gun but you could, dumb as it sounds, get hurt.

Through training and work I've seen enough guys get broken pieces of metal in there eye(s) even though they might have had eye protection.

The easy way, if you could go with a bigger hole, drill the bugger out and use 'penitration oil'. Then GENTLY tap the hole, making small progress and pulling back, then forward a tiny bit. over and over.

Patience is big on taping. Ive been in some tricky places on hot days and getting mad just makes it worse.;)

ren
10-16-2009, 6:07 PM
The easy way, if you could go with a bigger hole, drill the bugger out and use 'penitration oil'. Then GENTLY tap the hole, making small progress and pulling back, then forward a tiny bit. over and over.

Patience is big on taping. Ive been in some tricky places on hot days and getting mad just makes it worse.;)

we're still talking about ar15s right? but yea its a lesson learned, out of panic i contacted stag and they mentioned a few customers complaining about a tight fit so ill see what they say. the second time around ill just go with kns pins to skip these spring and pins as these were the most difficult for me.

sevensix2x51
10-16-2009, 6:11 PM
we're still talking about ar15s right? but yea its a lesson learned, out of panic i contacted stag and they mentioned a few customers complaining about a tight fit so ill see what they say. the second time around ill just go with kns pins to skip these spring and pins as these were the most difficult for me.

yeah, still talking about ar-15s. but if there isnt a 'kit' for when you break a tap off in your lower, youre stuck with critical thinking skills. those seem to be in short supply. thats why theres gunsmiths.

CHS
10-16-2009, 6:27 PM
Let this be a lesson to you.

This mod is one of the stupidest ideas ever to hit the AR industry.

technique
10-16-2009, 6:46 PM
Let this be a lesson to you.

This mod is one of the stupidest ideas ever to hit the AR industry.

Thank you!:)

technique
10-16-2009, 6:48 PM
In addition,

No offense meant to the OP at all...
Guys, the dude just messed up tapping his lower. Logically, why would we be recommending he go near it with a drill? Or any other tool?

KNS pin and be done.

sevensix2x51
10-16-2009, 6:51 PM
In addition,

No offense meant to the OP at all...
Guys, the dude just messed up tapping his lower. Logically, why would we be recommending he go near it with a drill? Or any other tool?

KNS pin and be done.

or a tap, for that matter? ;)

SoCalRandy
10-16-2009, 7:20 PM
So, if you were to add the KNS pivot and takedown pins to a stripped OLL would that eliminate the need for the springs and detents that come with the LPK?

technique
10-16-2009, 7:22 PM
So, if you were to add the KNS pivot and takedown pins to a stripped OLL would that eliminate the need for the springs and detents that come with the LPK?

correct..

CHS
10-16-2009, 7:22 PM
So, if you were to add the KNS pivot and takedown pins to a stripped OLL would that eliminate the need for the springs and detents that come with the LPK?

Another expensive fix for a non-existent problem.

akjunkie
10-16-2009, 7:42 PM
well I used a drill and had the lower on a vice block, drill was put on the lowest torque setting so it wouldn't snap when I started. I went to a machine shop told them what I was doing and they recommended a Irwin tap. getting in wasn't the problem it was getting out. I ordered the kns, should hve ordereded through rainier to get that deal on both pivot and rear.


So let me get this straight? instead of using a Tap Wrench, U had your Tap installed in a Cordless Power Drill??? to Tap the hole on your receiver?

I just did this Mod today on 5 of my Receivers using Irwin brand Tap & Wrench.

Did it by hand, used a drop of gunoil for each Receiver. Turned 90degrees then backed off and repeated the process til i got the Tap deep enuff.
They all came out fine.

sevensix2x51
10-16-2009, 7:58 PM
So let me get this straight? instead of using a Tap Wrench, U had your Tap installed in a Cordless Power Drill??? to Tap the hole on your receiver?

I just did this Mod today on 5 of my Receivers using Irwin brand Tap & Wrench.

Did it by hand, used a drop of gunoil for each Receiver. Turned 90degrees then backed off and repeated the process til i got the Tap deep enuff.
They all came out fine.

i generally tap with an 18v dewalt, in the 8/10-32 range. but ive tapped 10k+ holes in that size... not on ar15 lowers, but in copper, steel, and ali. just like a gun, it's all in the trigger control. even with a power drill, i turn ~1rev per second, and back out about every 1-2 revolutions... for those of us that dont use taps daily, definitely leave the power drill in the box, and tap it by hand.

missiontrails
10-16-2009, 8:52 PM
Overall, it seems like the OP went hunting for mice with an elephant gun, by using a drill on an aluminum lower hole, instead of the cheapie wood handled tap. He is lucky, he could have actually damaged something that matters...

sv_1
10-16-2009, 10:17 PM
In addition,

No offense meant to the OP at all...
Guys, the dude just messed up tapping his lower. Logically, why would we be recommending he go near it with a drill? Or any other tool?

KNS pin and be done.


Ooouch.:43: I guess some like to learn the hard way.

Not like it's never been done before. But seriously, NO POWER TOOLS when putting it together next time:) Good luck and have fun!

hlcarbine
10-17-2009, 12:00 AM
i have seen tap removers for use when a tap breaks off. taps have groves in them so if you can get 2 picks in between them and a good grip you can turn them out. but i have only experienced this with engine blocks and metal parts. Lowers are aluminum and this may cause the hole to become wider so take your time with this. Dont try to drill it out you will only make the problem worse.
But again a tap extractor is your best bet or take it to an expert cause the extractors are expensive.

ren
10-17-2009, 8:17 AM
yea I tried for a good 2 days to get that spring in and it wouldn't budge so I tried a mod what people said work. of course with modifying anything there's a risk of it breaking. I know this from working on cars, CCTV systems, computers. etc. I remembered seeing those kns pins but couldn't remember the company.