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Toolbox X
10-15-2009, 2:06 PM
How does AB962 affect .22LR ammo? Is .22LR rifle or pistol ammo?

ke6guj
10-15-2009, 2:12 PM
nobody knows yet.

CADOJ'll probably have to write up supporting regulations to clarify exactly what is considered handgun ammo. At that point, there probably will be a comment period regarding the proposed regulations.

MasterYong
10-15-2009, 2:20 PM
.22 LONG RIFLE

While it would seem obvious to anyone with more than 10 brain cells that it's rifle ammo, I'm sure our glorious dictators will deem it to be evil, nasty, dirty handgun ammo and thus capable of killing every baby in the state using it's heat-seeking infant-murder technology.

Don't worry- you'll still be able to buy it on the street corner from your favorite neighborhood drug/ammo dealer.

ETA: Sorry, I'm really bitter about this.

Turo
10-15-2009, 2:25 PM
.22 LONG RIFLE

While it would seem obvious to anyone with more than 10 brain cells that it's rifle ammo, I'm sure our glorious dictators will deem it to be evil, nasty, dirty handgun ammo...

Unfortunately, this is probably the case. Even walmart says you must be 21 to buy .22lr. Probably due to the amount of .22lr pistols on the market.

ke6guj
10-15-2009, 2:31 PM
Unfortunately, this is probably the case. Even walmart says you must be 21 to buy .22lr. Probably due to the amount of .22lr pistols on the market.

do they? Or do they ask you "is this for rifle or pistol?". Then, the cashier enters the answer into the cash register, and the register tells the cashier that they must be 18 for rifle, and 21 for pistol.

jeffb502
10-15-2009, 2:34 PM
Unfortunately, this is probably the case. Even walmart says you must be 21 to buy .22lr. Probably due to the amount of .22lr pistols on the market. Did this change recently? When I was 18-20 they would just ask me for ID, then ask if it was for a rifle or pistol. If I said rifle they sold it to me. The only time Wal-Mart refused to sell me ammo when I was 18-20 was the day I was picking up my new marlin .22 shortly after my 18th birthday. They did sell it to my friend that came with me that day though...

Turo
10-15-2009, 2:37 PM
do they? Or do they ask you "is this for rifle or pistol?". Then, the cashier enters the answer into the cash register, and the register tells the cashier that they must be 18 for rifle, and 21 for pistol.

nope. I've always hoped they would ask, but every time I go in (in different walmarts as well) and ask for .22lr they tell me I have to be 21. I've even shared the law with them, but they just give me this: :confused: and ask me if I'm 21. :mad:

The sad thing is, I have a .22lr rifle and I would like to buy value packs of ammo for it, but I can't.

CalNRA
10-15-2009, 2:44 PM
this might be a good time to evaluate how 2nd friendly Brown really is, if DOJ is drafting up the language on how the law will be enforced.

calixt0
10-15-2009, 2:56 PM
We will have to wait and see but saw at one point the bill said something like pistol ammunition = ammunition principally designed for pistol use. I only read that once and that was before it went to the floor and before all the modifications. Now if this is the case rounds like 9mm 10mm 45acp 38 special 357 sig 357 magnum 45 colt etc. (round designed to be used in a pistol) will be out. Now just because you have a rifle that will shoot a handgun cartridge wont exempt you because the cartridge was designed for a pistol. As I understand it 22lr while there are plenty of pistols that use it, it was designed for as a rifle cartridge.

Now that being said that is logical and we all know that the laws and those who interpret them are far from logical.

Our right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed... Shall not be infringed means it shall not be touched, minimized, trivialized, or limited in any way. But then again that's my logic working not our law makers.

CalNRA
10-15-2009, 3:17 PM
yeah, it might be hard to argue against 45ACP being impacted, considering its name....

woodsman
10-15-2009, 3:17 PM
do they? Or do they ask you "is this for rifle or pistol?". Then, the cashier enters the answer into the cash register, and the register tells the cashier that they must be 18 for rifle, and 21 for pistol.

FWIW..

A few months back I bought .223 Hornady ammo from Cabelas in Reno. The policy was that handgun ammunition purchases were limit to 4 boxes of each caliber.

Even after getting the manager, they insisted that it was under the "handgun ammunition purchase limit" because there are handguns that shoot that caliber. Nevermind you could purchase bulk Russian .223.

I know, I know, it's a rifle caliber; and this was Reno.

Now that these folks in California have the nose of the camel in the tent, they will push even harder.

As they fear incorporation, they will be scurrying around trying to figure out a variety of ways to circumvent the RKBA.

It has been said that the key words in the second ammendment are "shall not be infringed". It will be interesting to see the battle lines form on this.

I can see the argument now- "The RKBA has to do with firearms. There is nothing in the Constitution that prohibits the access of ammunition".

I'm amazed of the number of people I see at the matches that have no idea about AB962 or its history.

Keep informing others of what is going on.

calixt0
10-15-2009, 3:29 PM
looked it up. according to the bill this is the definition of "pistol ammunition"
(a) 'Handgun ammunition' means ammunition principally for use in pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 12001, notwithstanding that the ammunition may also be used in some rifles.

ZRX61
10-15-2009, 3:44 PM
do they? Or do they ask you "is this for rifle or pistol?". Then, the cashier enters the answer into the cash register, and the register tells the cashier that they must be 18 for rifle, and 21 for pistol.


I've been asked a couple of times, but they told me it was because they don't sell handgun ammo after a certain time of day. I just pointed at my (then) 11yo daughter & said "Ask her, it's her gun" (22LR Savage bolt action). :)

Flopper
10-15-2009, 4:00 PM
they don't sell handgun ammo after a certain time of day

LOL, that's rich! Because everyone knows that the decision to commit gun crime is made only in the afternoon or later!

Mitch
10-15-2009, 4:05 PM
looked it up. according to the bill this is the definition of "pistol ammunition"
(a) 'Handgun ammunition' means ammunition principally for use in pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 12001, notwithstanding that the ammunition may also be used in some rifles.

.22 can easily fall under that, depending on what is meant by "principally."

I know most of the .22 I consume is fired through handguns, even though I spend most of my range time with rifles.

socalgunrunner
10-15-2009, 4:08 PM
looked it up. according to the bill this is the definition of "pistol ammunition"
(a) 'Handgun ammunition' means ammunition principally for use in pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 12001, notwithstanding that the ammunition may also be used in some rifles.

It's interesting to note that they didn't include the term "centerfire" when describing handgun ammunition.

donstarr
10-15-2009, 4:18 PM
I would not be at all surprised if the definition of "handgun ammunition" was somehow twisted to mean "any ammunition that can be used in any of the firearms on the California 'Roster'".

ZRX61
10-15-2009, 4:21 PM
LOL, that's rich! Because everyone knows that the decision to commit gun crime is made only in the afternoon or later!

I'm not 100% sure, but I think they stop selling between 10pm & 6 or 7am.

BroncoBob
10-15-2009, 4:52 PM
Our luck they'll consider everything except 12 guage as handgun ammo.

Turo
10-15-2009, 4:56 PM
Our luck they'll consider everything except 12 guage as handgun ammo.

Pistol-gripped 12-ga anyone?

BroncoBob
10-15-2009, 5:12 PM
Pistol-gripped 12-ga anyone?

Crap, forgot about that! I stand corrected, uh OK 600 Nitro?

Please don't tell me some fool made a handgun that shoots 600 Nitro.

Esquire
10-15-2009, 5:55 PM
Last time I was at BassPro, they had limit on handgun ammo purchase, and when I asked what 22LR was, they replied it was handgun ammo for the purposes of buy limit. And at Walmart, they keep 22LR in that glass counter, and they don't sell anything in that counter after 10 pm.

So, my guess is that 22 LR will be treated (by stores themselves, to error on side of caution) as handgun ammo unless CA DOJ explicitly exempts 22 LR from handgun ammo definition.

Somehow, I don't get the feeling that CA DOJ will be so nice as to do that.

ke6guj
10-15-2009, 5:56 PM
Crap, forgot about that! I stand corrected, uh OK 600 Nitro?

Please don't tell me some fool made a handgun that shoots 600 Nitro.
yup:eek:
-8fSIbA9SOM

Sabot
10-15-2009, 6:00 PM
They will just change the name of the round from .22 Long Rifle to .22 Long Pistol.

MustangGreg66
10-19-2009, 5:49 PM
yup:eek:
-8fSIbA9SOM

Wow, yea I was just going to say you could probably get someone to chamber or make a TC Encore pistol barrel chambered in just about any caliber, however impractical it may be... I guess that 600 Nitro pistol was a one shot wonder, I cringe as it bounces off that guy's head inevitably onto the pavement 10 feet behind him out of camera view, lol

bigcalidave
10-19-2009, 6:42 PM
I'm not 100% sure, but I think they stop selling between 10pm & 6 or 7am.

Nah, I ONLY buy handgun ammo at wallyworld at midnight-3am... Since that's when they stock the shelves. :P

CalNRA
10-19-2009, 8:12 PM
Somehow, I don't get the feeling that CA DOJ will be so nice as to do that.

I guess we have to see how JB acts.

BRANCHER
10-19-2009, 9:30 PM
looked it up. according to the bill this is the definition of "pistol ammunition"
(a) 'Handgun ammunition' means ammunition principally for use in pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 12001, notwithstanding that the ammunition may also be used in some rifles.

I have cleaned up the final SIGNED BILL and I cannot this is not in it.

There is this section
"(a) of Section 12323. Where ammunition or reloaded ammunition may be used in both a rifle and a handgun, it may be sold to a person who is at least 18 years of age, but less than 21 years of age, if the vendor reasonably believes that the ammunition is being acquired for use in a rifle and not a handgun."

This gives me hope that we can tell internet orders that it is for a Rifle and get it shipped.
Or local stores, “Sorry bud” this is for a rifle and no info or fingerprint for you!

I get Eley black for my Annies and would not waste it in any 22LR pistol I have. PERIOD. Thus I should be able to order online (and like any store has it on their shelves).

Or Better Yet. I have a 357 Lever action Rifle but no 357 or 38 handgun (at this time). Thus I should be able to tell this to the vendor and have 357 or 38 shipped here. Let the DOJ sit on that one.

Also on shipping pistol, rifle, and shotgun are all marked as ammunition. How does UPS know what is what. So I am de-facto banned from ordering my shot shells? Because CA DOJ says no home deliveries of ammo? A lot of wiggle room here. 9MM AR Upper and a 45ACP Rifle looking a lot better in my collection.

Then again this all be moot come early next year well before this becomes law.

AB962 bites!

CaliforniaCarry
10-19-2009, 10:08 PM
All I know is this:

My Wal-Mart has already taken handgun ammo off the shelves, including the 22 LR. Yep, the law doesn't take effect until 2/1/2010. Yep, I talked to the manager. Yep, they don't care.

ke6guj
10-19-2009, 10:10 PM
All I know is this:

My Wal-Mart has already taken handgun ammo off the shelves, including the 22 LR. Yep, the law doesn't take effect until 2/1/2010. Yep, I talked to the manager. Yep, they don't care.

That would be 2/1/2011, not 2010, so its even worse. They are complying with a law that does not even go into effect for almost a year and a half.

CaliforniaCarry
10-19-2009, 11:06 PM
That would be 2/1/2011, not 2010, so its even worse. They are complying with a law that does not even go into effect for almost a year and a half.

I apologize for the incorrect date.

Yeah, exactly. Maybe it's just me, but AB962 seems to be having some immediate effects.

pingpong
10-19-2009, 11:47 PM
All I know is this:

My Wal-Mart has already taken handgun ammo off the shelves, including the 22 LR. Yep, the law doesn't take effect until 2/1/2010. Yep, I talked to the manager. Yep, they don't care.

Which walmart is this? I haven't noticed anything like that around here. Then again, I doubt there'd be anything to notice since there's almost never any ammo on the shelves to begin with...

CaliforniaCarry
10-20-2009, 3:08 AM
Which walmart is this? I haven't noticed anything like that around here. Then again, I doubt there'd be anything to notice since there's almost never any ammo on the shelves to begin with...

Stevenson Ranch. There are two other Wal-Mart stores in the immediate area (Yes, we have three friggin' Wal-Marts), but I haven't checked them yet.

Esquire
11-20-2009, 12:07 PM
Found this thread from Oct. when AB962 topics were hot and heavy.

Let's discuss it more. My conjecture is that 22lr will NOT be regulated as handgun ammo under AB962. I feel like that law is targeting the more traditional handgun ammo like 9mm, .38, .44. 45, etc....

Somehow, I envision that these were the cartridges whose discarded casing littered on the streets of KDL's district so upset him that he was moved to enact AB962.

I know 22lr pistols are plenty lethal, but wonder if they are often used by gangs and criminals in the course of their misdeeds? That kind of info is what CA DOJ is likely to rely on when deciding whether 22lr is principally handgun ammo or not for purposes of AB962 enforcement.

MasterYong
11-20-2009, 12:33 PM
Found this thread from Oct. when AB962 topics were hot and heavy.

Let's discuss it more. My conjecture is that 22lr will NOT be regulated as handgun ammo under AB962. I feel like that law is targeting the more traditional handgun ammo like 9mm, .38, .44. 45, etc....

Somehow, I envision that these were the cartridges whose discarded casing littered on the streets of KDL's district so upset him that he was moved to enact AB962.

I know 22lr pistols are plenty lethal, but wonder if they are often used by gangs and criminals in the course of their misdeeds? That kind of info is what CA DOJ is likely to rely on when deciding whether 22lr is principally handgun ammo or not for purposes of AB962 enforcement.

I recall reading elsewhere that .22LR is one of the most common calibers used by gang members in crimes due to the price point. Could be wrong.