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View Full Version : FL03 & WWI and WWII 1911's


Slim
10-15-2009, 10:25 AM
Can you deal 1911's with a FL03?

froman118
10-15-2009, 10:31 AM
As far as I know a FFL03 is only good for long guns in California. All handgun transfers (besides intrafamilial) still have to go through a FFL01 regardless of C&R status.

EOD Guy
10-15-2009, 10:36 AM
You can't deal any firearms with a type 03 FFL. It's only for collecting.

M. D. Van Norman
10-15-2009, 10:38 AM
An FFL-03 actually does next to nothing in California, but it allows you to participate in the interstate commerce in eligible firearms. You may legally acquire C&R m1911-series pistols outside California. :D

Slim
10-15-2009, 11:24 AM
Can I bring them into Ca and sell them through a FL01?

Thanks for the help.

ke6guj
10-15-2009, 11:34 AM
you can't deal with an 03FFL, so if you are planning on going out-of-state, picking up C&R firearms, and bringing them back to CA with the intent to sell them, you would be improperly using your 03.

Slim
10-15-2009, 4:15 PM
Thanks for all of the information. Very helpful. So I guess I'm looking for M1 Carbines...

5hundo
10-15-2009, 4:39 PM
Thanks for all of the information. Very helpful. So I guess I'm looking for M1 Carbines...

I think what everyone is telling you is that it's a "grey area". Yes, you can buy C&R handguns with an 03 if you're in another state....

Bringing them back into CA is another story...

Once they're here, you cannot sell them face to face, to another person. However, if you fell on hard times and "had" to sell it, then you could transfer a 1911 through a 01 FFL.

The moral of the story is be very careful with that. I certainly wouldn't make a habit of it, or attempt to supplement your income by it...

TRICKSTER
10-15-2009, 5:40 PM
There is no "grey area" here. The OP appears to be asking about purchasing guns for resale using a 03 FFL. This is illegal and the kind of 03 abuse that will result in ATF and DOJ cracking down on 03 holders. You want to deal in guns, get a 01 FFL. Don't screw it up for the rest of us.

jmlivingston
10-15-2009, 6:01 PM
Note that CA does have a limit on the number of sale transactions an individual can have in a year. I believe it's 5/yr, not sure if it applies to both longarms and handguns.

John

5hundo
10-15-2009, 6:34 PM
There is no "grey area" here. The OP appears to be asking about purchasing guns for resale using a 03 FFL. This is illegal and the kind of 03 abuse that will result in ATF and DOJ cracking down on 03 holders. You want to deal in guns, get a 01 FFL. Don't screw it up for the rest of us.

OP...

...are you starting to see the problem? ;)

M. D. Van Norman
10-15-2009, 6:55 PM
[Sigh.] A licensed collector may buy and sell eligible firearms to enhance his collection. He may not engage in the business of dealing in firearms.

Dr. Peter Venkman
10-16-2009, 3:34 AM
[Sigh.] A licensed collector may buy and sell eligible firearms to enhance his collection. He may not engage in the business of dealing in firearms.

Which is what the OP is trying to do.

M. D. Van Norman
10-17-2009, 3:11 PM
I think you’re right, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s perfectly legal for an FFL-03 to purchase an eligible firearm with the intent to resell it later.

TRICKSTER
10-18-2009, 9:20 AM
And when they start passing laws in CA cracking down on 03 FFL's, we will all know why. There is a difference between selling to enhance your collection and selling to finance your collection. If you are purchasing firearms with the intent to sell and not collect, you are violating the terms or your 03.

M. D. Van Norman
10-19-2009, 1:39 PM
Well, financing one’s collection is still not being in the business of dealing firearms. I understand that plenty of collectors buy several examples of a rifle for volume discount, keep the one in best condition, and resell the rest.

In our case, California law adds another layer of restriction. Yes, the state could ban private sales altogether. The prohibitionists are already trying, and they’re not going to cut us any breaks for holding ourselves to higher standards than the law requires.

SVT-40
10-19-2009, 8:47 PM
The correct terminology 03 FFL collectors should us is "acquire", "hold" in your collection, and "dispose". Not, buy and sell.

Mssr. Eleganté
10-19-2009, 9:55 PM
The correct terminology 03 FFL collectors should us is "acquire", "hold" in your collection, and "dispose". Not, buy and sell.

There you go again. You keep saying we need to use "acquire" instead of "buy" and "dispose" instead of "sell", but when it comes to "hold" you still think it's fine to use other terms in its place. Why is that? If you are afraid of getting in trouble for using the word "buy" instead of "acquire", then how come you're not afraid of getting in trouble for using words like "shoot" and "clean" instead of "hold". :rofl:

The Gun Control Act makes no mention of Collectors having to avoid the words "buy" and "sell." In fact, the Gun Control Act makes several reference to Collectors purchasing and selling firearms. The laws are complicated enough. You don't need to start making up other silly rules in order to complicate things further. And we certainly don't need the word to start seeping out along the firearms community grape vine that "C&R FFL's can't buy and sell guns at all." That would be a disaster.

M. D. Van Norman
10-20-2009, 9:07 AM
I have seen overly strict interpretations of the law advanced here again and again. Carried to their logical conclusions, they would imply that any licensed collector who purchases a C&R firearm from an outfit like AIM or Century is a criminal. Of course, these interpretations completely ignore the fact that it is not illegal to buy firearms in California.

rogdigity
10-20-2009, 9:54 AM
I think what everyone is telling you is that it's a "grey area". Yes, you can buy C&R handguns with an 03 if you're in another state....

Bringing them back into CA is another story...

Once they're here, you cannot sell them face to face, to another person. However, if you fell on hard times and "had" to sell it, then you could transfer a 1911 through a 01 FFL.

The moral of the story is be very careful with that. I certainly wouldn't make a habit of it, or attempt to supplement your income by it...

There is no "grey area" here. The OP appears to be asking about purchasing guns for resale using a 03 FFL. This is illegal and the kind of 03 abuse that will result in ATF and DOJ cracking down on 03 holders. You want to deal in guns, get a 01 FFL. Don't screw it up for the rest of us.


+1 for these. if you buy more then 1 handgun at a time i believe the FFL is required to report that to the ATF in some way/shape/form. at this point the ATF WILL come to do an inspection on your inventory (look in your log/transaction book and check you inventory), and probably do it with a very fine toothed comb. the BATFE is not something to f*ck around with. if you do decide to try something like this and they see that you have bought pistols and sold them to someone, just to go back and buy more of the same, you are toast. youll be in the pokie so fast. i bought 2 CZ-52 pistols from SOG one time (2nd for ¼ price sale) and sure enough the ATF came calling. when i was trading 2 2 of my CZ-52s for a k31 swiss i was sure to call them and ask if i was crossing any lines. it seems that trading c&r firearms for c&r firearms is expected and not something they fret as much, but i wouldnt just start selling my firearms unless i absolutely needed to and/or had a damn good reason to. and even if i did i would not start buying them again right away either. that could easily be construed as abuse, and abuse is bad:(



Note that CA does have a limit on the number of sale transactions an individual can have in a year. I believe it's 5/yr, not sure if it applies to both longarms and handguns.

John

as for 5/year, i have bought more then 5 firearms (non c&r) from dealers in a year and did not get in trouble. i think this is a myth. just like the maximum number allowed to own myth


There you go again. You keep saying we need to use "acquire" instead of "buy" and "dispose" instead of "sell", but when it comes to "hold" you still think it's fine to use other terms in its place. Why is that? If you are afraid of getting in trouble for using the word "buy" instead of "acquire", then how come you're not afraid of getting in trouble for using words like "shoot" and "clean" instead of "hold". :rofl:

The Gun Control Act makes no mention of Collectors having to avoid the words "buy" and "sell." In fact, the Gun Control Act makes several reference to Collectors purchasing and selling firearms. The laws are complicated enough. You don't need to start making up other silly rules in order to complicate things further. And we certainly don't need the word to start seeping out along the firearms community grape vine that "C&R FFL's can't buy and sell guns at all." That would be a disaster.

thank you for this. i notice so many people walk on egg shells with terminology but its not that important. the important part is that if/when someone comes and knocks on your door to see your inventory that you have your books in order and your firearms accounted for and in order

M. D. Van Norman
10-20-2009, 10:15 AM
The five-per-year limit applies to handguns, and that’s five transactions, not five handguns. Rifle sales must merely be infrequent.

ke6guj
10-20-2009, 2:04 PM
+1 for these. if you buy more then 1 handgun at a time i believe the FFL is required to report that to the ATF in some way/shape/form. at this point the ATF WILL come to do an inspection on your inventory (look in your log/transaction book and check you inventory), and probably do it with a very fine toothed comb. the BATFE is not something to f*ck around with. if you do decide to try something like this and they see that you have bought pistols and sold them to someone, just to go back and buy more of the same, you are toast. youll be in the pokie so fast. i bought 2 CZ-52 pistols from SOG one time (2nd for ¼ price sale) and sure enough the ATF came calling. as mentioned before, SOG should not have filed the 3310.4 on you since you were a licensee for that transaction and the multiple handgun report form is for recipients who are non-licensees. And even at that point, it is not a guarantee that ATF WILL inspect you.





as for 5/year, i have bought more then 5 firearms (non c&r) from dealers in a year and did not get in trouble. i think this is a myth. just like the maximum number allowed to own myth
Its not a myth, but you are mistaken in the law. It is not a purchase limitation, it is a selling limitation.


12070. (a) No person shall sell, lease, or transfer firearms unless he or she has been issued a license pursuant to Section 12071. Any person violating this section is guilty of a misdemeanor.

(b) Subdivision (a) does not include any of the following:
(4) The infrequent sale, lease, or transfer of firearms.

(c)(1) As used in this section, "infrequent" means:
(A) For pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, less than six transactions per calendar year. For this purpose, "transaction" means a single sale, lease, or transfer of any number of pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person.
(B) For firearms other than pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, occasional and without regularity.