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vinniesguns
10-14-2009, 3:27 PM
Had my DOJ inspection today, she told me they (DOJ) accept the safe aaft. but that BATF no longer does. Meaninf of course that a receipt of a CA. approved safety lock or the approved safety lock that comes with a new gun, with the recorded number, are required to be in compliance, with both the State and Feds. Anyone had a Fed. inspection that can confirm this?

PolishMike
10-14-2009, 3:33 PM
That has been the case with handguns, are you saying this now applies to long guns as well?

bohoki
10-14-2009, 3:34 PM
the atf has never accepted the safe affidavit on pistols

aft requirement that each pistol sold has a lock with it
but they have no requirement about a receipt within the last 30 days

so safe for california and childsafe lock for the feds

PonchoTA
10-14-2009, 5:13 PM
It's all BS anyway. I don't even HAVE kids in my home, yet I still have to buy a lock or prove I have a safe, to keep these non-existent chiiiiiillllllldddrrrrruunnnnn safe. :rolleyes:

BS. BS. BS.

.

halifax
10-14-2009, 5:32 PM
Until the Youth Handgun Safety Act passed the feds didn't require safes or locks on any gun. Now it's just hand guns and they don't recognize the CA Safe Affidavit as satisfying that requirement. So the CA Safe Affidavit was never accepted by the feds.

freakshow10mm
10-14-2009, 5:48 PM
Just had the compliance interview when I got my 07 last summer. ATF said federal law is every handgun must have a lock, state law is every firearm. Stupid state form I have to have them/me sign and keep on file for every gun sold (4473 customers).

I just went down to the police station and told the I got my FFL. They gave me a 50lb box of gun locks from the Project Childsafe thingie. "here, let us know if you need more". OK.

I let my customers know I have them and offer them one, they take it and give it back to me. I done my part. Still have the 50lb box of locks. I think I had 2-3 people keep it. The rest give it back.

kemasa
10-15-2009, 9:26 AM
The rules for the BATF for gun locks has not been published yet, as required, so there is some question as to whether it can really be enforced. The law, as written, states that the FFL has to provide the lock or a safe, not the buyer. The BATF attorney said that it does not matter if the buyer has a safe, that it only counts if the FFL provides it at the time of delivery. An agent said that they are not enforcing it unless they personally see it.

halifax
10-16-2009, 4:16 AM
Official response from ATF when I asked them about the CA Safe Affidavit:

U.S. Department of Justice
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
Firearms and Explosives
Washington, DC 20226
DEC 8, 2008
903010:LHB
5300

Dear Mr. xxxxxxx:

This is in response to your letter to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). In your letter, you asked if the California State Form, Affidavit Stating Ownership of an Acceptable Gun Safe or Lock Box. is an acceptable form for customers in lieu of purchasing an 800+-pound full safe.

As you may know, a major mission of ATF is enforcement of the provisions of the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), its subsequent amendments, and other Federal firearms laws. A significant part of the GCA concerns the requirements pertaining to the manufacture, importation, distribution, possession, and sale of firearms.

Section 921 (a)(34)(C) of Title 18 of the United States Code (U.S.C.) defines a secure gun storage or safety device as a safe, gun safe, gun case, lock box, or other device that is designed to be or can be used to store a firearm, and that designed to be unlocked only by means of a key, combination, or other similar means. 18 U.S.C. 922(z), regarding secure gun storage or safety device, states in part that it shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer to sell, deliver, or transfer any handgun to any person other than any person licensed, unless the transferee is provided with a secure gun storage or safety device for that handgun at the time of the firearm sales transaction.

The form used by the State of California Department of Justice with the standards set forth by section 977.50 of the California Code of Regulations may comply with California laws but does not comply with the laws and regulations set forth by ATF. This form is not an ATF form and is not an acceptable form in lieu of presenting a secure gun storage or safety device at the time of each firearm sales transaction.

We regret that our response was not more positive. If you should have any further questions, we invite you to review our Web site at www.atf.gov. You may also contact our office at (202) 648-7090.

Sincerely yours,


Raymond G. Rowley
Chief, Firearms Programs Division

So, although the ATF recognizes that the CA Safe Affidavit is a legal document, they won't accept it because it is not one of "their" legal documents. If you don't want another lock to add to your collection just bring in your safe and you are good to go. ;)

kemasa
10-16-2009, 9:06 AM
Ask them if they have published the rules, as required.

There is no federal form or requirement for documenting how you follow this law.

If you bring in the safe, you still will not be following the law. "unless the transferee is provided" is the problem. According to the BATF attorney, the law is that the FFL has to "provide" the lock or safe and if the buyer brings it in, the FFL is not providing it. No kidding, that is what I was told.

halifax
10-16-2009, 9:12 AM
Ask them if they have published the rules, as required.

There is no federal form or requirement for documenting how you follow this law.

If you bring in the safe, you still will not be following the law. "unless the transferee is provided" is the problem. According to the BATF attorney, the law is that the FFL has to "provide" the lock or safe and if the buyer brings it in, the FFL is not providing it. No kidding, that is what I was told.


If the customer sells it to me for a penny and I give the safe back to him, I would be the one providing the locking device.

kemasa
10-16-2009, 9:17 AM
Yep, but then again, there is currently no publication, as required, stating how you are supposed to document the transaction. The letter the BATF sent out stated that it would be published, but it was never done.

How do you document that the item was transferred to you and then you provided it to the buyer? :-)

halifax
10-16-2009, 12:43 PM
Yep, but then again, there is currently no publication, as required, stating how you are supposed to document the transaction. The letter the BATF sent out stated that it would be published, but it was never done.

How do you document that the item was transferred to you and then you provided it to the buyer? :-)

I just don't see it as that complicated. I'd just note it on the 4473 30c. I don't think I would be breaking any laws if my customer left with a safe.

kemasa
10-16-2009, 12:48 PM
Nope, not laws would be broken if everyone left with a safe, but there is also no requirements that you even document it.

I suspect that the requirement publication has not been done since it is not workable. Clearly, the intent was that if the person had a safe, then it was acceptable. The problem is that in one sentence it says that the FFL has to provide safe storage and later on it only mentions about it being provided, so the attorney claims that means that ONLY the FFL can be the one to provide it.

ontargetrange
10-18-2009, 6:40 PM
Having gone through two ATF and two DOJ audits now I can say what the current OC agents are saying --

Forget the safe affidavit UNLESS the safe was purchased within the last 30 days
A receipt for a firearm lock (CA approved as well) original copy of it, be attached to the DROS paperwork or 4473

That is what the agents are looking for -- you ALSO need to write out the lock model on the front of the DROS near the bottom in the comment line to further "prove" you did see or sell a lock at the time of delivery

This is a crock, but one we are stuck with going forward --

I also called the regional rep for ATF and asked when I was going to see the letter from them about this -- to set the record straight -- unknown to them

nickvig
10-18-2009, 6:57 PM
Why does the original lock provided with a firearm not meet this requirement? Has anyone asked the DOJ and/or BATF this? If the gun was supplied with a factory lock (even for a PPT) why does the purchaser have buy another lock? Especially since this is not the case with the purchase of new firearms directly from a dealer.

jmlivingston
10-18-2009, 7:21 PM
A lot of the factory locks don't meet the CA DoJ requrements.The DoJ of course, has a roster (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/fsdcertlist.php) of "Approved Firearms Safety Devices" and has certified laboratories for testing and approving such to be added to the roster. :rolleyes:

So here in CA you basically have to meet btoh the DoJ and the ATF requirements. I don't know if any dealers do this or not, but theoretically you should be able to use a safe affidavit to meet the DoJ requirement and take a non-rostered lock to meet the ATF requirement. They non-rostered lock may not be sold to you however, that is against CA law.

12088.15. (a) No person shall keep for commercial sale, offer, or expose for commercial sale, or commercially sell any firearms safety device that is not listed on the roster maintained pursuant to subdivision (d) of Section 12088, or that does not comply with the standards for firearms safety devices adopted pursuant to Section 12088.2.

nickvig
10-18-2009, 8:50 PM
A lot of the factory locks don't meet the CA DoJ requrements.The DoJ of course, has a roster (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/fsdcertlist.php) of "Approved Firearms Safety Devices" and has certified laboratories for testing and approving such to be added to the roster. :rolleyes:

So here in CA you basically have to meet btoh the DoJ and the ATF requirements. I don't know if any dealers do this or not, but theoretically you should be able to use a safe affidavit to meet the DoJ requirement and take a non-rostered lock to meet the ATF requirement. They non-rostered lock may not be sold to you however, that is against CA law.

In my most recent transactions, both handguns came with locks that have a piece of paper that says, "Meets CA DOJ requirements for firearms safety devices." So the question is, should I have had to purchase a lock during these FTF PPT's when the gun came with a lock that met the requirement?

halifax
10-18-2009, 8:55 PM
In my most recent transactions, both handguns came with locks that have a piece of paper that says, "Meets CA DOJ requirements for firearms safety devices." So the question is, should I have had to purchase a lock during these FTF PPT's when the gun came with a lock that met the requirement?

No, you shouldn't have to but some dealers either can't read or believe the law requires that they sell you one.

badhabit90
10-19-2009, 5:37 PM
J
I just went down to the police station ....... They gave me a 50lb box of gun locks from the Project Childsafe thingie. "here, let us know if you need more". OK.



the whole lock thing is a confusing issue. i STILL have two boxes of locks from Project Childsafe when i worked at a local gun shop. anyone need a lock???:D free...i dont see why, under the current confusion, you couldnt bring in one of these locks in the package, open it, secure the pistol, and your good to go???

SDProtection
11-10-2009, 9:03 AM
Ok guys. I guess I still fit the newb profile so I am going to ask the stupid question: If a new pistol is sold with a lock (assume is says CA approved) and I write down the make, model, etc of the lock. Do I STILL need to have the client sign the safe affidavit stating they have a safe or lockbox for either CA or ATF?

kemasa
11-10-2009, 9:10 AM
The safe affidavit is instead of a lock and it does not meet the claimed requirements of the Feds. So, if you have a lock which is CA certified, then that is all you need. It is best to document what it is.

CSACANNONEER
11-10-2009, 9:10 AM
To the OP,

BATF&E has NEVER accepted or required a safe affidavet. So, your DOJ agent obviously doesn't know squat about Federal laws which pertain to firearms.

Ok guys. I guess I still fit the newb profile so I am going to ask the stupid question: If a new pistol is sold with a lock (assume is says CA approved) and I write down the make, model, etc of the lock. Do I STILL need to have the client sign the safe affidavit stating they have a safe or lockbox for either CA or ATF?

Ca law clearly states that the buyer must sign a safe affidavet or buy a lock within 30 days before taking possession of a firearm. So, if it's your contention that the lock is part of the sale, you should be good to go. I would put the lock on the receipt just to cover all asses concerned though.

SDProtection
11-10-2009, 9:27 AM
The safe affidavit is instead of a lock and it does not meet the claimed requirements of the Feds. So, if you have a lock which is CA certified, then that is all you need. It is best to document what it is.

Thanks, that was/is how i have been doing business. I was starting to think that I had really confused myself and getting very nervous!

You gotta love Kalifornia!

tenpercentfirearms
11-10-2009, 5:07 PM
I keep my entire customer records 4473, receipt, DROS and all together. So the ATF can look at the DROS form to see which lock was included with the purchase.

Go to your local PD and see if they have any Project Childsafe locks left. I got like 800 of them from Taft PD. I haven't sold a lock in two years.

When I am done with those, I will start a trade in program. A customer cannot bring in a lock and use it for their transaction unless they have a receipt within the last 30 days. No problem. They will bring me in a Project Childsafe GL710 NSSF and simply give it to me. Hey thanks! I will be sure they have a DAC CL551 to go along with their purchase. Probably the next time they come in, they will give me a DAC CL551. I will give them a Project Childsafe GL710 to go along with their purchase.

Nothing prohibits customers from simply giving me locks as long as it is not related to their current transaction.