PDA

View Full Version : How will AB962 specifically effect handgun ammo sales between private parties?


ENTHUSIAST
10-14-2009, 1:50 PM
50 round limit is gone right?

Will Calgunner A still be able to buy a case of ammo from Calgunner B cash, handshake and carry like the good old days?

freakshow10mm
10-14-2009, 1:51 PM
Yes and yes.

rklute
10-14-2009, 3:27 PM
Yes and sort of.

According to Section 12318 any "delivery or transfer of handgun ammunition must occur in a face-to-face transaction with the deliverer or transferor being provided bona fide evidence of identity from the purchaser or other transferee."

And

According to Section 12317. "(a) Any person, corporation, or firm who supplies, delivers, sells, or gives possession or control of, any ammunition to any person who he or she knows or using reasonable care should know is prohibited from owning, possessing, or having under his or her custody or control, any ammunition or reloaded ammunition pursuant to paragraph (1) or (4) of subdivision (b) of Section 12316, is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, or a fine not exceeding one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment."


So, as long as you are shown proper ID and reasonably believe 'your good buddy' is legit, you can.

skerzz
10-14-2009, 3:53 PM
So would an ammo dealer located in Arizona leally be able to take "ammo orders" (with a deposit) online and then drive into California and deliver to/meet a California resident face-to-face to complete the transaction (delivery driver brings a credit card machine for payment and checks Identification)?

Or does the act of delivering the orders into California establish you as an "ammo vendor" in Ca and thus you would be subject to the Ca rules/regulations?

freakshow10mm
10-14-2009, 4:59 PM
I think the second question is a yes. They are an ammunition vendor if they are doing it for a business. If it's a private party selling extra ammo, it's not a vendor.

rklute
10-14-2009, 5:06 PM
As I read it, any one engaged in the retail sale of handgun ammuntion or promoting themselves to be doing such is a 'handgun ammunition vendor" and is subject to the section dealing with that whether they are in California or not.

Interstate commerce restrictions may come into play here limiting what restrictions California can impose on out-of-state vendors. So, I see 2 possible scenarios.

If California can impose Section 12061(a) on out-of-state sellers, then who ever completes delivery to the purchaser must get the information listed in that section, including right thumb print, and return it to the vendor for 5 years storage on premises.

If California can not impose Section 12061(a) then, I believe only Sections 12317(a) and 12318(a) comes into play, requiring who ever delivers the ammunition to verify the Bona Fide ID and exercise reasonable care in knowing the purchaser can accept delivery. This would only require purchaser showing a current Drivers License and, say, a current Handgun Safety Certificate.

California vendors must always follow Section 12061(a). They must get all the information and save it. The wiggle room is the fact that in some places the legislation refers to 'sale or transfer' and in other places ' transfer or delivery'.

The more I read the bill, the more I think there is wiggle room on the face-to-face provision. It should just be a variation on 'adult signature required'.

megavolt121
10-14-2009, 5:28 PM
If California can not impose Section 12061(a) then, I believe only Sections 12317(a) and 12318(a) comes into play, requiring who ever delivers the ammunition to verify the Bona Fide ID and exercise reasonable care in knowing the purchaser can accept delivery. This would only require purchaser showing a current Drivers License and, say, a current Handgun Safety Certificate.



This brings up 2 questions:

1) Can a prohibited person get a HSC? Its been years since I took the test so I don't remember.

2) Does burden of proof that the party delivering checked ID fall on the State, or will a party delivering need to take photocopies?

bigcalidave
10-14-2009, 5:32 PM
HSC is just a card, no check involved at all.

ke6guj
10-14-2009, 5:37 PM
This brings up 2 questions:

1) Can a prohibited person get a HSC? Its been years since I took the test so I don't remember.
I don't see where the PC says a prohibited person can't get an HSC, http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12800.php

ENTHUSIAST
10-14-2009, 6:11 PM
WTF??? So let me get this straight if I do an ammo deal with another calgunner after Feb. 2011 I must check his California Drivers License or California ID AND ask him to present me with his HSC card is this accurate?

Gene, Bill, Oak HELP!!!

Do I just look at them or do we have to go to Kinkos and make copies?!?

What would be the purpose of me taking information from a person if I do not have to submit to him any of my personal info??? Really :confused:

ENTHUSIAST
10-14-2009, 9:14 PM
bump for more info ^^^^

glockwise2000
10-14-2009, 9:21 PM
HSC is just a card, no check involved at all.


I know HSC doesn't require a check, however, having a COE does? Can this be used? If you can, let us flood the agency with application for COE. Correct me if I am wrong.

freakshow10mm
10-14-2009, 9:24 PM
I think the exemption is a C&R w/ COE. The HSC isn't mentioned in the bill.

bsim
10-14-2009, 9:46 PM
(he deliverer can't sell to a 'known' prohibited person or one he 'reasonably believes' to be a prohibited person.

If he doesn't know, he doesn't know. There's no way he can look that info up.

rklute
10-15-2009, 7:48 AM
The photo ID is necessary. The HSC was just my dumb idea of how to establish 'reasonable' satisfaction that the buyer can legally take possession.

GrizzlyGuy
10-15-2009, 9:24 AM
WTF??? So let me get this straight if I do an ammo deal with another calgunner after Feb. 2011 I must check his California Drivers License or California ID AND ask him to present me with his HSC card is this accurate?

See this from AB962:

"12318. (a) Commencing February 1, 2011, the delivery or transfer
of ownership of handgun ammunition may only occur in a face-to-face
transaction with the deliverer or transferor being provided bona fide
evidence of identity from the purchaser or other transferee. A
violation of this section is a misdemeanor."

If you personally deliver the ammo to another calgunner, then you would have to check their ID. You are both the transferor and the deliverer in that case.

If you shipped the ammo to the calgunner via UPS or other means, the deliverer (e.g., UPS driver) would have to check their ID. The misdemeanor is on their head (not yours) if this doesn't happen.

If the other calgunner is a Handgun Ammunition Vendor, or fits one of the other exceptions listed in 12318(c), then none of this would not apply.

Here is the final version of AB962:

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/09-10/bill/asm/ab_0951-1000/ab_962_bill_20090921_enrolled.html

freakshow10mm
10-15-2009, 9:31 AM
Applies to handgun ammunition vendors.

FABIO GETS GOOSED!!!
10-15-2009, 9:48 AM
Section 12318's "face-to-face transaction" and "bona fide evidence of identity" requirements apply to transfers of ownership (e.g., sales) as well as deliveries of handgun ammunition.

If you're selling handgun ammo to another Calgunner, you need to do it face to face and the purchaser must provide bona fide evidence of identity.

If you're delivering handgun ammo to another Calgunner, you need to do it face to face and the purchaser must provide bona fide evidence of identity.

If you're the seller, you can't avoid 12318(a) by having someone else deliver and check id at delivery. You still need to do a face-to-face sale with id check.

Violation of 12318(a) is a two-way deal. If you're the purchaser and your purchase of handgun ammo is not face-to-face, or your purchase of handgun ammo is face to face but you fail to provide bona fide evidence of identity, or if you take delivery of handgun ammo without providing bona fide evidence of identity, you have violated section 12318(a).

Section 12318(a) does not apply to sales of handgun ammo to, or delivery of handgun ammo to, "handgun ammuntion venders."