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Werewolf1021
10-13-2009, 10:13 PM
Alright, I am really annoyed. I got into a debate with one of my roommates about handguns and other firearms. I was getting in some good points like criminals are only affected by gun control laws, self defense is a natural right, etc etc. Then he said that "firearms are only designed to kill". I responded that my guns have never killed anyone, other than paper. Did not seem to take though..

What should i say in the future?

RP1911
10-13-2009, 10:17 PM
airplanes are designed to kill

hoffmang
10-13-2009, 10:17 PM
I love this one.

When someone tells you that guns are only designed to kill people you say:

"That's why we issue them to cops. To kill people. I mean a cop's only job is to kill people."

Then you shut up and stare at them until the become uncomfortable.

-Gene

CSACANNONEER
10-13-2009, 10:18 PM
There are many firearms designed for sporting purposes. These guns are designed to win competitions period. Think of all the different Olympic shooting events.

BTW, what do you mean by "handguns and other rifles"? Did "other" just slip in there? Or, am I missing something?

Werewolf1021
10-13-2009, 10:19 PM
There are many firearms designed for sporting purposes. These guns are designed to win competitions period. Think of all the different Olympic shooting events.

BTW, what do you mean by "handguns and other rifles"? Did "other" just slip in there? Or, am I missing something?

Meant other firearms.:o

Werewolf1021
10-13-2009, 10:19 PM
I love this one.

When someone tells you that guns are only designed to kill people you say:

"That's why we issue them to cops. To kill people. I mean a cop's only job is to kill people."

Then you shut up and stare at them until the become uncomfortable.

-Gene

AWESOME! Never thought about that one.

deldgeetar
10-13-2009, 10:33 PM
Pull out your pistol, tell him to hit the deck, demand his wallet. Once he complies, hand it back to him and say, "see, I didn't shoot you.":D

No seriously, just show him the armed citizen articles.

CSACANNONEER
10-13-2009, 10:34 PM
Pull out your pistol, tell him to hit the deck, demand his wallet. Once he complies, hand it back to him and say, "see, I didn't shoot you.":D

Better yet, shoot him in the leg and, then say, "see, it did not KILL you."

CHS
10-13-2009, 10:43 PM
Here's the thing. Don't deny it.

Firearms ARE designed to kill.

So what? Killing is a great deterrent to things like rape and murder.

If you back away and go on and on about how firearms ARENT designed to kill, then they win the argument. They just sit there and reiterate it over and over. So agree with them. Say "Yes, they are designed to kill. Sometimes to defend a life, you must take another."

wildhawker
10-13-2009, 10:44 PM
:rofl2:

I love this one.

When someone tells you that guns are only designed to kill people you say:

"That's why we issue them to cops. To kill people. I mean a cop's only job is to kill people."

Then you shut up and stare at them until the become uncomfortable.

-Gene

nicki
10-14-2009, 4:22 AM
Guns are weapons, of course they can kill, and what they do depends on who is behind the trigger.

Criminals don't obey disarmament controls, only law abiding citizens do and the become disarmed victims who are then are supposed to be dependent on the police for their personal safety.

Personal safety is a right, certainly there needs to be a balance between individual right of self defense and public safety.

Disarming potential victims only ensures the safety of potential attackers.

If banning guns would reduce access of guns to criminals then why do we still have a drug problem after close to 100 years of drug laws?

Ask your room mate the following. If he was on the street at night and approached by 3 thugs who wanted to beat the crap out of him with baseball bats, he had no escape, which would he rather have.

A cell phone which would get the police to arrive guaranteed in 5 minutes or a 9mm handgun which he could defend himself instantly?

Don't sweat it if you can't reach him, some are forever lost.

Nicki

Window_Seat
10-14-2009, 6:07 AM
In my situation, my friend says that "cops are specially and highly trained, and they have the authorization to kill when necessary".

In most cases, the anti's are going to be anti's for life, and they won't change until they are ready to change on their own terms.:(

The best way to handle this situation (as I did with my Brother, who I love dearly) is to state that "we live in a Second Amendment Nation, and the Second Amendment applies to individuals, not just in the home, but outside of the home, end of discussion". He kicks & screams about ARs. I don't argue because he knows I'm pro, and he's not.

I no longer "start" the discussion, I allow them to start the discussion, and if they want to hear my opinion, I tell them in that similar, yet limited language. It's up to them to decide if they want to listen outside the MS puppet pad.

Erik.

Mitch
10-14-2009, 6:50 AM
I have over 100 firearms. I shoot many of them regularly. I have never managed to kill anyone or anything living thing with any of them.

Am I doing it wrong? Do I need to re-read the instructions?

Mitch
10-14-2009, 6:51 AM
In most cases, the anti's are going to be anti's for life, and they won't change until they are ready to change on their own terms.

Actually, in most cases, they don't have strong opinions on the subject and can be easily turned after polite discussion and a trip to the range.

In most cases.

KylaGWolf
10-14-2009, 6:57 AM
I love this one.

When someone tells you that guns are only designed to kill people you say:

"That's why we issue them to cops. To kill people. I mean a cop's only job is to kill people."

Then you shut up and stare at them until the become uncomfortable.

-Gene

That one is a good one I have used I love watching the expression on their face as they think that one through. Then if they still try to debate them I ask how a gun kills they say people use it to kill. So I go so its not the gun itself that kill but the person using it. So should we outlaw human life. They usually go silent and walk away after that. :D

Mulay El Raisuli
10-14-2009, 7:05 AM
Alright, I am really annoyed. I got into a debate with one of my roommates about handguns and other firearms. I was getting in some good points like criminals are only affected by gun control laws, self defense is a natural right, etc etc. Then he said that "firearms are only designed to kill". I responded that my guns have never killed anyone, other than paper. Did not seem to take though..

What should i say in the future?


You could ask him "what's your point?" Is he trying to make a claim that because they're designed to kill, that's all they can do?

You could point out that he's factually incorrect. Guns are designed to expel a lead (or lead/copper) bullet down the barrel via the expansion of gases produced from the burning of certain chemicals. SOME guns are designed to do such with killing people in mind (.38, .45ACP, etc). But some are designed to do so with hunting in mind (.500S&W, .44Magnum, etc). Yes, that's still killing, but unless your buddy is a vegan, then the issue of hypocrisy comes up. And some are designed to do so to put little holes in paper targets (in Olympic competition, for instance).

You could tell him what Gene said.

Or you could quote from the first book of Dirty Happy, chapter three, verse 12: "Nothing wrong with shooting so long as the right people get shot."

The Raisuli

Bugei
10-14-2009, 7:20 AM
Forget him. He's an FDPA (Future Dead Person of America). He's selected extinction for himself (just make sure he doesn't do the same for you).

Really, his opinion isn't relevant. You're going to do what you know is right and you'll be ready when the Bad Days come. He'll do the same and he'll end up on a truck heading for the labor camps.

Just say "Uh-huh" and let the stupid b*stard die.

DukeofSD
10-14-2009, 9:55 AM
Then you shut up and stare at them until the become uncomfortable.

-Gene

NICE! I need to remember the "shut up and stare" part. :D

bomb_on_bus
10-14-2009, 11:28 AM
You could hit him with this,

If guns kill people then pencils make spelling errors, if pencils make spelling errors then Mcdonalds makes me fat.

Or heres a real mind scrambler! <========= Cheezy Wierd Science quote BTW. you could tell him that knives, ropes, ice, water, sand, heights, cold, heat, chemicals, radiation, poisons, animals, heavy objects, extreme pressures, outer space, or the worst one yet PEOPLE actually kill people!

Man I am still having trouble wrapping my head around that last concept!

bomb_on_bus
10-14-2009, 11:37 AM
Or you could ask him has he seen a gun kill a person without being operated by a human of some sort?

I havent personally seen a gun walk up to a box of ammo, open up the box, load the magazine with ammo, feed the magazine into the receiver, chamber the round into battery, switch from safe to fire, then aim itself and pull the trigger.

I mean it could happen, right?

gewgaw
10-14-2009, 11:51 AM
The "designed to kill" argument is based on a logical fallacy. The argument relies on the faulty syllogism:

1) Killing is immoral.
2) Firearms are designed to kill.
3) Therefore, firearms are immoral.

The presumption, of course, is that morality should be enforced by law. And that all killing is immoral.

First of all, many things in the world are "designed" for killing -- the human trait of aggression, for example, has been developed by evolution to enforce one's will over others at the pain of injury and sometimes death. Predators are "designed" to kill -- that's how they eat. Toxic plants are "designed" to kill whatever eats them, in order for them to avoid being eaten.

If the only basis for the elimination of something from our world was the fact that it was "designed to kill", many objects, animals and plants would have to be banned.

Secondly, you acknowledge that firearms are designed to kill -- then you ask them, so does it make sense that you would only give ONLY bad guys who disobey the law access to these instruments of death? If they say no, only cops/soldiers should have firearms, then ask, what makes a person who joins the police or the military any different from you or me? They'll probably answer training, then you ask them if you got the training, could you own a firearm? It will eventually get down to an answer from them like, "only people who like killing want firearms", which basically then leads right into you saying something like, "so it's PEOPLE who kill, not firearms."

mmartin
10-14-2009, 12:12 PM
I have over 100 firearms. I shoot many of them regularly. I have never managed to kill anyone or anything living thing with any of them.

Am I doing it wrong? Do I need to re-read the instructions?

the bumper sticker version:
"If guns kill people, mine must be defective."
megan

mmartin
10-14-2009, 12:13 PM
Actually, in most cases, they don't have strong opinions on the subject and can be easily turned after polite discussion and a trip to the range.
^^this.
fear breeds righteous justification of wrong-headed ideas.
reduce the fear, and you open their minds.
even if they don't know the fear is the problem.
megan

mmartin
10-14-2009, 12:15 PM
Just say "Uh-huh" and let the stupid b*stard die.
the problem is that in the mean time, the stupid b*stards vote.
megan

gewgaw
10-14-2009, 12:20 PM
^^this.
fear breeds righteous justification of wrong-headed ideas.
reduce the fear, and you open their minds.
even if they don't know the fear is the problem.
megan

+1. In my own experience, I have taken an anti-gun person to the range and had them actually experience it themselves. They find out that they are not anti-gun because of any deeply reasoned moral stance, but simply because it was a defaut viewpoint.

They always say, after a day at the range, "wow, that was fun! When can we go again?"

blerg
10-14-2009, 12:24 PM
Really, his opinion isn't relevant.

It is. He can vote. For or against gun control.

PEBKAC
10-14-2009, 12:46 PM
You could try this...

Inform him that you cannot accept the assertion that guns are designed to kill, however would he accept the assertion that guns are designed to destroy to be adequate. Anyone in their right mind should.

Then, simply point out that all tools fundamentally destroy as part of use.

Example: shovel, blows holes in the ground, displacing dirt mud etc. Fundamentally destroys the previous state of matter (no hole in the ground) and thus brings about a new state (ie, the state of there being a hole in the ground and there being a pile of dirt next to it).

Example: drill + bit. Destroys the current state of the wood by grinding a hole through it.

Firearms are no different, they simply destroy the previous state of matter with a bullet, whatever that matter may be.

:D

Mute
10-14-2009, 12:55 PM
He's wrong. Period. Some are designed to kill animals. Some to devastate paper targets. Some to annihilate clay pigeons. And some just to look good in a display case. Don't bother wasting your breath on people who are only looking for an argument instead of a reasonable debate.

mmartin
10-14-2009, 1:03 PM
He's wrong. Period. Some are designed to kill animals. Some to devastate paper targets. Some to annihilate clay pigeons. And some just to look good in a display case. Don't bother wasting your breath on people who are only looking for an argument instead of a reasonable debate.

many times what they are looking for isn't an argument, but a way to reduce their fear. the idea of preventing civilians from having guns quiets their fear. when you're addressing fear, starting with reasonable debate doesn't get it done, they can't hear you. if you can address the fear first, reasonable debate has a fighting chance.

... did you ever notice that if the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail? and once you also have a screwdriver, now you can see the difference between nails and screws?

pick the right tool for the job. reasonable debate is only one method and not the best method for addressing fear-based justifications.

megan

ZRX61
10-14-2009, 1:50 PM
"If I was to ask you if you'd like to come to the range & shoot the hell out of a bunch of defenceless paper & rocks etc, would your answer to that question be the same as you answer to this one?"

;)

Can also be used on women at the bar by changing:

"come to the range & shoot the hell out of a bunch of defenceless paper & rocks etc"

To:
"come outside & fool around in my truck for an hour"

dantodd
10-14-2009, 1:58 PM
"If I was to ask you if you'd like to come to the range & shoot the hell out of a bunch of defenceless paper & rocks etc,

Rocks aren't defenseless. Those bastards can bite back when being shot.

Flopper
10-14-2009, 2:02 PM
you could tell him that knives, ropes, ice, water, sand, heights, cold, heat, chemicals, radiation, poisons, animals, heavy objects, extreme pressures, outer space, or the worst one yet PEOPLE actually kill people!


Outer space doesn't kill people.

Lack of oxygen and exposure kills people.

:D

M. Sage
10-14-2009, 7:42 PM
I love this one.

When someone tells you that guns are only designed to kill people you say:

"That's why we issue them to cops. To kill people. I mean a cop's only job is to kill people."

Then you shut up and stare at them until the become uncomfortable.

-Gene

ROFL!! Exactly.

HondaMasterTech
10-14-2009, 8:47 PM
Guns were designed to propel an object at great speed. What you do with one is up to you.

CHS
10-14-2009, 9:09 PM
Guns were designed to propel an object at great speed. What you do with one is up to you.

The original intent and design of firearms, from the earliest versions, was as a weapon of war. To kill.

Don't deny that. Just accept it.

Some SPECIFIC firearms are designed for target shooting, or competition, or whatever. But firearms as a whole are absolutely designed for killing.

But there's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing inherently wrong with killing. It all lies behind the intent. If you intend to hurt someone, then killing is wrong. If you intend to defend someone, then killing is sometimes right.