PDA

View Full Version : AR15 Legallity


TonyMang_89
10-13-2009, 4:23 PM
the way i understand it i can not purchase a stripped lower being that I am only 19.

but can i purchase a complete lower half? and then a complete upper put a bullet button on it and 10 round mag and be fully legal?

zach
10-13-2009, 4:25 PM
I was 18 and bought a complete lower and upper

ke6guj
10-13-2009, 4:26 PM
IIRC, tenpercentarms was told by his ATF inspector recently that if it isn't complete with barrel assy, it isn't considered a rifle, even if the lower has a shoulder stock. So, no complete lowers (without uppers) to 18-20 year olds.

TonyMang_89
10-13-2009, 4:40 PM
ok. so i have to buy a complete ca legal rifle at this age
i cant build one myself

Eckolaker
10-13-2009, 4:45 PM
ok. so i have to buy a complete ca legal rifle at this age
i cant build one myself

You could have a friend over 21 purchase the parts for you and build it. Then you just need to PPT the fully assembled CA legal rifle to you.

dieselpower
10-13-2009, 4:59 PM
You could have a friend over 21 purchase the parts for you and build it. Then you just need to PPT the fully assembled CA legal rifle to you.

You need to re-think that whole statement.....

sevensix2x51
10-13-2009, 5:01 PM
You need to re-think that whole statement.....

+1. there are plenty of complete rifles on ca store shelves. you are going to have to pay the under 21 tax buying a complete rifle, but hey, do you want one or not?

Josh3239
10-13-2009, 5:06 PM
You need to re-think that whole statement.....

He isn't suggesting a straw purchase. There is nothing illegal about buying a lower, building it, and PPTing it to a friend. Intent doesn't have anything to do with a straw purchase.

Unit74
10-13-2009, 5:07 PM
Why are the OLL's regulated like a pistol? Seems that he should be able to buy a rifle lower and build it up.

SoCalRandy
10-13-2009, 5:09 PM
ok. so i have to buy a complete ca legal rifle at this age
i cant build one myself

Where are you located? I'm sure if you posted your location people can recommend some good gun shops in your area.

Josh3239
10-13-2009, 5:10 PM
Why are the OLL's regulated like a pistol? Seems that he should be able to buy a rifle lower and build it up.

They aren't. One can, but like many things in this world there are age restrictions.

Vinz
10-13-2009, 5:12 PM
ok. so i have to buy a complete ca legal rifle at this age
i cant build one myself

yes you can. If my buddies wife can put one together on the kitchen island, anyone can.

edit: copy that....carry on.
vinz

ke6guj
10-13-2009, 5:22 PM
yes you can. If my buddies wife can put one together on the kitchen island, anyone can.


vinzHis question was not related to his ability to put one together, but the legality of him putting one together. Since he can't purchase a stripped receiver or complete lower until he turns 21, he can't "put together" a complete rifle, but must purchase one already assembled.

TonyMang_89
10-13-2009, 5:32 PM
i am in so cal. near san bernardino.
cold war shooters is the closest place that knows anything about ar15's

Darklyte27
10-13-2009, 5:54 PM
off topic, but can you believe kids now in high school never were alive in the 80s? they look at the 80s like I looked at the 70s, i only heard of and seen things on tv of the 70s..

sevensix2x51
10-13-2009, 5:59 PM
off topic, but can you believe kids now in high school never were alive in the 80s? they look at the 80s like I looked at the 70s, i only heard of and seen things on tv of the 70s..

lmfao +1

jamesob
10-13-2009, 6:17 PM
You need to re-think that whole statement.....hmmm. why should he re-think that statement? nothing wrong with doing it that way, just cost 35.00 more.

Afterburnt
10-13-2009, 6:23 PM
off topic, but can you believe kids now in high school never were alive in the 80s? they look at the 80s like I looked at the 70s, i only heard of and seen things on tv of the 70s..

I cant believe people here weren't alive in the 70's...

CSACANNONEER
10-13-2009, 6:26 PM
I cant believe people here weren't alive in the 70's...

I can't believe anyone can remember the 70's.

I2y4n
10-13-2009, 6:30 PM
i was just at a gun store and they said i can't get a striped if your under 21, because it can be made into a pistol, but if it has a a2 style stock its a "rifle" and then its ok to be sold to someone at age 18

This is just what a store told me i dont know if its legit

lorax3
10-13-2009, 6:35 PM
If you are looking to build custom AR try finding an FFL 07 (Like JD Machine Tech in SD who makes lower recievers) they will probably build you a rifle with their lower if you bring them all the other parts.

If not you can buy basic Stag rifles for decent prices online and add custom parts as you see fit.

Perhaps if you see a OLL for sale you can sell the person your AR parts and they can build for you and PPT to you as a rifle.

Also, an immediate family member could buy a lower for you as a gift.

ke6guj
10-13-2009, 7:09 PM
i was just at a gun store and they said i can't get a striped if your under 21, because it can be made into a pistol, it's not that it could be made into a pistol, but that it doesn't meet the defintion of a rifle or shotgun. The regulations state that an FFL cannot transfer ANY firearm to a person under the age of 21. They then have an exemption that allows 18-20 year-olds to transfer rifles or shotguns. Since a stripped receiver is not a rifle or shotgun, it doesn't qualify for the rifle exemption to the 21-year old requirement.

but if it has a a2 style stock its a "rifle" and then its ok to be sold to someone at age 18

This is just what a store told me i dont know if its legitdepends on the shop, and what their ATF inspector tells them. IIRC, Wes at 10% was originally told by ATF that they could transfer shoulder-stocked lowers to 18-20 year-olds. But then, at a later time, he was told that it needed to be a complete rifle to qualify for the rifle exemption.

TonyMang_89
10-13-2009, 7:13 PM
i'll just buy a complete rifle. and add what i want in time

thanks alot though guys, trying to stay out of trouble but still exercise my rights

five.five-six
10-13-2009, 7:14 PM
You could have a friend over 21 purchase the parts for you and build it. Then you just need to PPT the fully assembled CA legal rifle to you.

http://www.jbpawn.com/images/albums/NewAlbum_6cf3a/tn_don_t_lie.jpg

BrowningTBolt
10-13-2009, 7:32 PM
http://www.jbpawn.com/images/albums/NewAlbum_6cf3a/tn_don_t_lie.jpg

It isn't a straw purchase. It is being bought legally AND THEN SOLD TO SOMEONE LEGALLY VIA PPT. It is legit.

rabagley
10-13-2009, 10:01 PM
it's not that it could be made into a pistol, but that it doesn't meet the defintion of a rifle or shotgun. The regulations state that an FFL cannot transfer ANY firearm to a person under the age of 21. They then have an exemption that allows 18-20 year-olds to transfer rifles or shotguns. Since a stripped receiver is not a rifle or shotgun, it doesn't qualify for the rifle exemption to the 21-year old requirement.

I think when Wes came back with that, he was saying that his store, and as far as he knew, his store only, could no longer DROS a receiver with a stock and call it a "long gun" on the DROS form.

This does not mean that a different store that has not been so informed by the CA DOJ cannot continue to do so until they are informed of the same information. There has been no publication by the CA DOJ that other store owners could use to confirm this policy one way or the other.

rabagley
10-13-2009, 10:02 PM
http://www.jbpawn.com/images/albums/NewAlbum_6cf3a/tn_don_t_lie.jpg

Intent to legally transfer is different from buying on behalf of.

CSACANNONEER
10-13-2009, 10:04 PM
I think when Wes came back with that, he was saying that his store, and as far as he knew, his store only, could no longer DROS a receiver with a stock and call it a "rifle" (or "long gun" whichever it is) on the DROS form.

This does not mean that a different store that has not been so informed by the CA DOJ cannot continue to do so until they are informed of the same information. There has been no publication by the CA DOJ that other store owners could use to confirm this policy one way or the other.

I don't think it was CA DOJ that had the problem with it. I think it was ATF&E.

rabagley
10-13-2009, 10:22 PM
I don't think it was CA DOJ that had the problem with it. I think it was ATF&E.

Ah. Didn't catch that. Okay, so it's an interaction between federal and state classification of the firearm. A BATFE auditor tells Wes that anything other than a shootable firearm is not a rifle (which means it runs afoul of California law when being purchased by an under 21). In either case, it's always written down as "long gun" on the CA DROS.

Here's the thing. Wes was not penalized for any of the receiver+stock combinations he sold as rifles, nor was he required to retrieve any of the receivers he sold as rifles. He was simply informed that he shouldn't do that any more. Other stores have not been so notified and until they are so notified, I suspect will continue to make their own good faith interpretations of the sometimes vague phrasings surrounding definitions and will not be penalized for their "honest mistake". When the BATFE auditor informs them, well then they'll have to toe that line just like Wes.

My point being that other stores don't have to follow any statement that has not been officially published or otherwise conveyed to them by an official of the BATFE. Further, they're extremely unlikely to be in any legal jeopardy if they sell this legal adult a receiver w/ attached stock and mark down "rifle" on the Form 4478.

That's all.

CSACANNONEER
10-13-2009, 10:26 PM
Ah. Didn't catch that. Okay, so it's an interaction between federal and state classification of the firearm. A BATFE auditor tells Wes that anything other than a shootable firearm is not a rifle (which means it runs afoul of California law when being purchased by an under 21). In either case, it's always written down as "long gun" on the CA DROS.

Here's the thing. Wes was not penalized for any of the receiver+stock combinations he sold as rifles, nor was he required to retrieve any of the receivers he sold as rifles. He was simply informed that he shouldn't do that any more. Other stores have not been so notified and until they are so notified, I suspect will continue to make their own good faith interpretations of the sometimes vague phrasings surrounding definitions and will not be penalized for their "honest mistake". When the BATFE auditor informs them, well then they'll have to toe that line just like Wes.

My point being that other stores don't have to follow any statement that has not been officially published or otherwise conveyed to them by an official of the BATFE. Further, they're extremely unlikely to be in any legal jeopardy if they sell this legal adult a receiver w/ attached stock and mark down "rifle" on the Form 4478.

That's all.

Again, I said "I think" for a reason. I did not go back and research it. Instead I went off memory and, I've remembered wrong before.

rabagley
10-13-2009, 10:29 PM
Again, I said "I think" for a reason. I did not go back and research it. Instead I went off memory and, I've remembered wrong before.

You're probably right, I also made my statement from memory. The part I most specifically remembered from Wes's post was his speculation that this just meant the end of his store selling that particular configuration to 18-20 year old's and probably didn't mean that other dealers had to immediately stop.

reidnez
10-13-2009, 11:26 PM
Intent to legally transfer is different from buying on behalf of.

:iagree:

OP is not prohibited from buying a rifle, or possessing a lower (it isn't a handgun). He just can't buy the lower on its own, because of an oddity in the law. It is going to be PPT'd once assembled. Not a straw purchase.

Fot
10-13-2009, 11:36 PM
off topic, but can you believe kids now in high school never were alive in the 80s? they look at the 80s like I looked at the 70s, i only heard of and seen things on tv of the 70s..

LMAO My boys call the 90's "olden times"

CSACANNONEER
10-14-2009, 8:45 AM
LMAO My boys call the 90's "olden times"

Hell, the 1890's aren't even "the olden times". We had cartridge guns 4 decades before that.

Variable2147
10-14-2009, 2:43 PM
off topic, but can you believe kids now in high school never were alive in the 80s? they look at the 80s like I looked at the 70s, i only heard of and seen things on tv of the 70s..
Just like reagan predicted, we look back at the 70s and say "that's when men were free"