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mikehaas
10-13-2009, 9:22 AM
NRA Members' Councils of California
http://calnra.com/skin/mclogoclr2.gif (http://calnra.com)
CALNRA: NRA Plans Repeal of AB 962
10/13/2009 9:00 AM - PLEASE DISTRIBUTE WIDELY

Earlier this year, Assemblyman Curt Hagman (http://www.calnra.com/cgi-bin/pass.cgi?url=http://arc.asm.ca.gov/member/60/default.aspx) introduced Assembly Bill 373 related to the sales of handguns. AB373 was sponsored by the National Rifle Association in order to streamline the ability for law-abiding Californians to purchase handguns.

Now that Governor Schwarzenegger has signed AB962 (http://www.calnra.com/calerts/calert101209.shtml) into law, people are already becoming aware of the damage that it will do to California and it's citizens. Therefore, the NRA and Assemblyman Hagman have agreed to amend AB373 into legislation that would repeal AB962. The newly amended AB373 will be heard in the State Legislature in January of 2010 so we must be ready for these hearings.

For the rest of the story, please visit TODAY'S CAL-ERT (http://www.calnra.com/calerts/calert101309.shtml)! (We ask that you always click-through to CalNRA.com to aquire the latest information possible.)

curtisfong
10-13-2009, 9:26 AM
Is there text of AB373 available?

5hundo
10-13-2009, 9:28 AM
I wish them luck and I hope it works but I'm not holding my breath...

H Paul Payne
10-13-2009, 9:28 AM
Is there text of AB373 available?

Soon.

The amendments are being made as you read this.

Paul

vrand
10-13-2009, 9:33 AM
Soon.

The amendments are being made as you read this.

Paul

:cheers2:

curtisfong
10-13-2009, 9:35 AM
Sweet, this is exactly what we need. Fight on both legislative and judicial fronts.

Very exciting news!

precisionshooter308
10-13-2009, 9:36 AM
I called and voted at least 20 times against 962. It does no good. Arnie should resign with prejudice NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

soundwave
10-13-2009, 9:37 AM
Note: To send Assemblyman Hagman an e-mail through the form on his .gov page, you must enter an address in his district. Otherwise you get an error message.

Looking forward to reading the bill :)

soundwave
10-13-2009, 9:40 AM
I called and voted at least 20 times against 962. It does no good. Arnie should resign with prejudice NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good luck with that. Why not focus on realistic next steps like supporting Assemblyman Hagman in his efforts to repeal the AB962?

While our calls, emails, and faxes to the Governor may have been less effective than we hoped, what truly does no good is whining about it.

Stay in the fight and double your efforts.

bwiese
10-13-2009, 10:06 AM
Good luck with that. Why not focus on realistic next steps like supporting Assemblyman Hagman in his efforts to repeal the AB962?

While our calls, emails, and faxes to the Governor may have been less effective than we hoped, what truly does no good is whining about it.

Stay in the fight and double your efforts.

Bingo. 373 may get dressed up with a variety of bells & whistles that makes it passable. Or allow a governor to vote again on the contents of 962 and say, "um, well, now that we've looked at it further..."

That, combined with a legal attack on 962 before it becomes active, offers good prospects for us.

bwiese
10-13-2009, 10:06 AM
Curt Hagman: a Republican who's *not* sitting on his arse on the gunrights front.

wildhawker
10-13-2009, 10:13 AM
Each and every Calgunner should call or write to express their thanks to Assemblyman Hagman.

H Paul Payne
10-13-2009, 10:14 AM
I wish them luck and I hope it works but I'm not holding my breath...

Please don't hold your breath. I doubt you look good in blue. :D

"THEM" who is "THEM"?? Don't you mean "US"??? ;)

sergeantrex
10-13-2009, 10:16 AM
Do you really think AB373 is the answer? I predict it will go down in flames. But good luck though.

H Paul Payne
10-13-2009, 10:17 AM
Note: To send Assemblyman Hagman an e-mail through the form on his .gov page, you must enter an address in his district. Otherwise you get an error message.

Looking forward to reading the bill :)

Try Assemblymember.Hagman@assembly.ca.gov

H Paul Payne
10-13-2009, 10:18 AM
Do you really think AB373 is the answer? I predict it will go down in flames. But good luck though.

Thanks for the support! It's great to have you on the pro-Second Amendment Team.

Paul

thmpr
10-13-2009, 10:22 AM
I will remain positive on every front we are on... It's much healthier to remain positive than negative.


CGF.....Again...Thank you!

5hundo
10-13-2009, 10:24 AM
Please don't hold your breath. I doubt you look good in blue. :D

"THEM" who is "THEM"?? Don't you mean "US"??? ;)

I meant "them", the NRA...

...and no, I'm not one of "them". If I would have given them any more of my money, my blood-pressure would be higher than it already is. :mad:

CAL.BAR
10-13-2009, 10:26 AM
I will remain positive on every front we are on... It's much healthier to remain positive than negative.


CGF.....Again...Thank you!

True - but realism never hurt anyone either. AB 962 sailed through both houses of congress and was signed on the first presentation. "We" have never been successful in overturning ANY statewide anti-gun bill once passed.
Roberti Roos and its progeny
Microstamping
10 day waiting period
1 gun every 30 days limit
Ca approved roster
the list goes on. . .

All still on the books and doing nicely thank you very much.
does get depressing every now and again.

jb7706
10-13-2009, 10:31 AM
Standing by for Calguns and/or NRA flyer drops. I think I can add a few stops this time.

Kestryll
10-13-2009, 10:32 AM
I meant "them", the NRA...

...and no, I'm not one of "them". If I would have given them any more of my money, my blood-pressure would be higher than it already is. :mad:

Of course you mean 'them', it's so much easier to sit on your duff whining about how no one is fixing things for you than to get up off that butt and do something yourself isn't it?

Here's a clue, the NRA, like the CRPA and even Calguns.net is comprised of members and nothing gets done if those members don't get up and DO IT!

But grab another latte, pull up a chair and type some more about how no one is doing anything to secure and restore your rights.
That's so much easier isn't it?

H Paul Payne
10-13-2009, 10:37 AM
I meant "them", the NRA...

...and no, I'm not one of "them". If I would have given them any more of my money, my blood-pressure would be higher than it already is. :mad:

That's fine. I wouldn't want your health to be imperiled. Please be well and think happy-happy thoughts. ;) The rest of "US" are here and we won't give up.

We are all free to work to protect the Second Amendment in the way we think is best. I am, or course, assuming that you support the Second Amendment.

So, for the rest of "US," we will continue to fight. And fight we will. Even when the odds are against "US," as they always are in California. But "we" (that's "US" to the uninformed) are used to fighting the enemies of freedom -- from without and within.

To those of "US" who are on-board for the long haul..... SEMPER FI!!!

And THANK YOU!

Paul

Cal-Irish
10-13-2009, 10:40 AM
What happened to the plan of attack based on CA limiting fair trade routes or something of a similar nature?

Kestryll
10-13-2009, 10:43 AM
What happened to the plan of attack based on CA limiting fair trade routes or something of a similar nature?

That is still going too.

Why fight on only one front?

oaklander
10-13-2009, 10:45 AM
Folks!

Let's get involved. Like I said in another thread, the NRA is ON THIS (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=231002)!

But we have to remember that WE are the NRA.

This is completely doable. As you will remember AB 962 did not pass with much of a margin. We do have a good chance to repeal it.

AND, we are also fighting it on the legal front (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=230632).

Getting apathetic now is what the anti's want.

himurax13
10-13-2009, 10:46 AM
So when does AB962 go into effect?

Cal-Irish
10-13-2009, 10:46 AM
No reason to fight on one front only. Glad to hear the alternate front is still being fought.

sergeantrex
10-13-2009, 10:48 AM
Seems like all/most of our victories are in the court system. I understand the argument of fighting on all fronts, however the reality is there are not enough state law makers on our side.

sergeantrex
10-13-2009, 10:51 AM
So when does AB962 go into effect?

Feb. 2011

H Paul Payne
10-13-2009, 10:51 AM
True - but realism never hurt anyone either. AB 962 sailed through both houses of congress and was signed on the first presentation.

Actually, this is NOT the first-time that this ammo registration scheme has been presented to us!

I remember sitting in a republican Assemblyman's Office, a few years ago, when he told me and NRA-ILA CA State Liaison Ed Worley that we would have to "Polish this turd" and accept the fact that AB2714 (http://calnra.com/legs.shtml?year=2006&aex=ab2714&ex=&displaypos=&displaystat=#ab2714) would pass the legislature and be signed by the Governor. He told us, "It's just like buying wine over the Internet and it's not that bad." He attempted to get us to support AB2714 (http://calnra.com/legs.shtml?year=2006&aex=ab2714&ex=&displaypos=&displaystat=#ab2714) in exchange for other things to happen. We refused to cut a deal and Ed assured him that the NRA would fight this bill to the end. We won when the Governor vetoed AB2714 (http://calnra.com/legs.shtml?year=2006&aex=ab2714&ex=&displaypos=&displaystat=#ab2714).

The final version of AB962 (http://nramemberscouncils.com/legs.shtml?summary=ab962&year=2009), as signed by the Governor, is very similar to AB2714 (http://calnra.com/legs.shtml?year=2006&aex=ab2714&ex=&displaypos=&displaystat=#ab2714).

Paul

sevensix2x51
10-13-2009, 10:51 AM
those of US that are grateful for all the effort of our litigation-savvy brothers, are behind all efforts 100%!! a lot of us arent much more than warm bodies in this fight, but we will help where we can. thanks again, and keep up the good work!! :thumbsup:

oaklander
10-13-2009, 10:53 AM
Hey Rex!

I never did get a chance to thank you for that housewarming gift! Thank you - I like it!

With respect to this - I think that it is completely doable. AB 962 did not pass with much of a margin, and we now have a bunch more outraged gun owners on our side.

Seems like all/most of our victories are in the court system. I understand the argument of fighting on all fronts, however the reality is there are not enough state law makers on our side.

sergeantrex
10-13-2009, 10:58 AM
Hey bro glad you like. As I was typing my post I was hoping that someone that knows more about this than me would prove me wrong:D

oaklander
10-13-2009, 11:01 AM
LOL - not so much about proving anyone wrong - just trying to give people hope!!!

The NRA would not be putting money and time into trying to repeal AB 962 if it was not politically possible.

:)

Hey bro glad you like. As I was typing my post I was hoping that someone that knows more about this than me would prove me wrong:D

mikehaas
10-13-2009, 11:01 AM
I meant "them", the NRA...

...and no, I'm not one of "them". If I would have given them any more of my money, my blood-pressure would be higher than it already is. :mad:
Oh my God - that dang NRA has gone and let something make 'Shundo' mad again. Doesn't that evil NRA know the most important thing is to keep 'Shundo' happy? No WONDER Schwarzeneggar betrayed us - we betrayed Shundo!

Personally, I need to apologize myself because I haven't tuned into the 'Shundo' report to find out what I should have been doing. I've made the same mistake that apparently others here have done too - listening to NRA.

Please, 'Shundo', don't close off like this! How can you expect the rest of us to go on? You're going to leave THOUSANDS hanging, wondering... just what DID you spend that $35 you withheld from NRA? I bet it was for something really important like half-a-box of ammo.

You relax and watch that blood pressure now. The rest of us will fight the good fight on your behalf. No, not against AB 962 - I mean the IMPORTANT battle - against NRA. They need to pay for their insolence...

Nodda Duma
10-13-2009, 11:04 AM
Good job guys, glad to see the attack on two fronts. If you need any help out here in the boonies, let me know. I signed up for members' council per the advice on the AB962 page (although I don't think there are council meetings out here in Ridgecrest).

-Jason

5hundo
10-13-2009, 11:06 AM
Here's a clue, the NRA, like the CRPA and even Calguns.net is comprised of members and nothing gets done if those members don't get up and DO IT!



For the record, I am a CRPA member...

I figured that if I'm going to give my money to a gun rights organization, I want the one that is specifically focussed on CA to have it.

gazzavc
10-13-2009, 11:09 AM
Keep bashing on chaps.........


Just for the record, can it be listed what we groundpounders can do , besides writing and calling ?

To whom should we be donating money to on this one ??

Gary

Ike Arumba
10-13-2009, 11:11 AM
This is completely doable. As you will remember AB 962 did not pass with much of a margin. We do have a good chance to repeal it.

AB 962 passed the assembly by 44-31, which was just sufficient. To repeal it, a new bill would presumably have to pass by going 44-31 the other way. That is a huge swing. I don't see it happening.

5hundo
10-13-2009, 11:12 AM
Oh my God - that dang NRA has gone and let something make 'Shundo' mad again. Doesn't that evil NRA know the most important thing is to keep 'Shundo' happy? No WONDER Schwarzeneggar betrayed us - we betrayed Shundo!

Personally, I need to apologize myself because I haven't tuned into the 'Shundo' report to find out what I should have been doing. I've made the same mistake that apparently others here have done too - listening to NRA.

Please, 'Shundo', don't close off like this! How can you expect the rest of us to go on? You're going to leave THOUSANDS hanging, wondering... just what DID you spend that $35 you withheld from NRA? I bet it was for something really important like half-a-box of ammo.

You relax and watch that blood pressure now. The rest of us will fight the good fight on your behalf. No, not against AB 962 - I mean the IMPORTANT battle - against NRA. They need to pay for their insolence...

Like I told Kest: Once Roberti-Roos is repealed, I'll admit I was wrong, apologize and re-join...

mikehaas
10-13-2009, 11:14 AM
For the record, I am a CRPA member...

I figured that if I'm going to give my money to a gun rights organization, I want the one that is specifically focussed on CA to have it.
So, you're not mad then? Now I'm all confused.

PLEASE TELL US WHAT TO DO - LEAD US!!!!

oaklander
10-13-2009, 11:14 AM
I do not think that the NRA would waste "political capital" and time and money if this could not be turned around somehow.

AB 962 passed the assembly by 44-31, which was just sufficient. To repeal it, a new bill would presumably have to pass by going 44-31 the other way. That is a huge swing. I don't see it happening.

CAL.BAR
10-13-2009, 11:14 AM
Actually, this is NOT the first-time that this ammo registration scheme has been presented to us!

I remember sitting in a republican Assemblyman's Office, a few years ago, when he told me and NRA-ILA CA State Liaison Ed Worley that we would have to "Polish this turd" and accept the fact that AB2714 (http://calnra.com/legs.shtml?year=2006&aex=ab2714&ex=&displaypos=&displaystat=#ab2714) would pass the legislature and be signed by the Governor. He told us, "It's just like buying wine over the Internet and it's not that bad." He attempted to get us to support AB2714 (http://calnra.com/legs.shtml?year=2006&aex=ab2714&ex=&displaypos=&displaystat=#ab2714) in exchange for other things to happen. We refused to cut a deal and Ed assured him that the NRA would fight this bill to the end. We won when the Governor vetoed AB2714 (http://calnra.com/legs.shtml?year=2006&aex=ab2714&ex=&displaypos=&displaystat=#ab2714).

The final version of AB962 (http://nramemberscouncils.com/legs.shtml?summary=ab962&year=2009), as signed by the Governor, is very similar to AB2714 (http://calnra.com/legs.shtml?year=2006&aex=ab2714&ex=&displaypos=&displaystat=#ab2714).

Paul

While ridiculous law do get introduced every year (and we even kill a few) the fact remains we have never repealed a state wide law (have we?)

H Paul Payne
10-13-2009, 11:23 AM
For the record, I am a CRPA member...

Now that's good news!

I figured that if I'm going to give my money to a gun rights organization, I want the one that is specifically focussed on CA to have it.

And while I have nothing against my CRPA brothers-in-defense-of-arms (I am a CRPA Life Member) attacking the NRA just doesn't make sense. Ed Worley and I work very closely with CRPA Executive Director John Fields, CRPA Legislative Liaison Tom Pedersen, and numerous CRPA Board Members. But I think I can probably safely say that the NRA invests/spends more into California each and every year than the entire CRPA budget.

Again, I am saying or implying nothing bad about CRPA. They are our partners in defense of the Second Amendment here in California. And they are very important partners to all of us. We should all be members of CRPA as well as any other group we prefer. But any lame attempt to divide-and-conquer between the NRA and CRPA is a waste of time. That tactic might have worked in times past, but not now!

Paul

loather
10-13-2009, 11:27 AM
AB 962 passed the assembly by 44-31, which was just sufficient. To repeal it, a new bill would presumably have to pass by going 44-31 the other way. That is a huge swing. I don't see it happening.

All it takes is a simple majority. 38-37 would work, too.

5hundo
10-13-2009, 11:29 AM
And while I have nothing against my CRPA brothers-in-defense-of-arms (I am a CRPA Life Member) attacking the NRA just doesn't make sense. Ed Worley and I work very closely with CRPA Executive Director John Fields, CRPA Legislative Liaison Tom Pedersen, and numerous CRPA Board Members. But I think I can probably safely say that the NRA invests/spends more into California each and every year than the entire CRPA budget.

My intent isn't to "attack" the NRA. I'm just frustrated with them because of how our gun rights get widdled down more and more with each passing year.

I guess I'm just in a bad mood. Sorry guys... :mad:

H Paul Payne
10-13-2009, 11:29 AM
All it takes is a simple majority. 38-37 would work, too.

It takes 41 in the Assembly and 21 in the Senate to pass bills.

Paul

glenbear
10-13-2009, 11:39 AM
I called and voted at least 20 times against 962. It does no good. Arnie should resign with prejudice NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Actually it may have done "Some good" He was in a no win position and did strike a balance by vetoing 585. The grabbers are like swarms, we need to be more like them in our opposition to this end around on the 2nd Amendment. Take a friend to the Cow Palace and have them join the NRA. Help educate your non gun friends. Point out that you're a reasonable person and you own guns. How bad could that really be? I came out to relatives at a family reunion this weekend. Said yep, I own em, I am NRA, and what's wrong with that? At least gave them a rational, non foaming at the mouth viewpoint. Don't agree with the spirit or intent of 962 AT ALL, but kinda understand why he had to do it. Let's take it on at the judicial and legislative level, cause the win will be longer lasting.

Just my 2 cents

wildhawker
10-13-2009, 11:39 AM
5hundo, amusing that you wish to reap the benefits of others' hard work and financial support. Do more than displace air- find something productive to work with us on. There are plenty of opportunities within NRA/CRPA/CGN.

H Paul Payne
10-13-2009, 11:46 AM
My intent isn't to "attack" the NRA. I'm just frustrated with them because of how our gun rights get widdled down more and more with each passing year.

I guess I'm just in a bad mood. Sorry guys... :mad:

Hell, I'm in a bad mood too! I guess that make "US" in a bad mood. :D

And I can tell you a thing or two about being frustrated. But we do need to stick together if we are to have a chance to win, in the end.

Divided loyalties and extreme frustration is nothing new in politics and nothing new in the Second Amendment rights movement for sure. But this is California and things are tough. That's not likely to change in the near future. When I think of my home state of California, I'm reminded of that scene in Band of Brothers, where someone says something like "You're going to be surrounded up there" and the response was "We're paratroopers. We're supposed to be surrounded."

For the record: "We're gun owners living in California. We expect a daily fight for our Second Amendment Freedoms! And we will face the challange each and every day."

I chose to accept the offer to work for the NRA because I believed (and still do) that my efforts can help keep the big-dog-in-the-fight heading in the right direction. It's been 21 years since I first became active in pro-Second Amendment movement and more than a dozen of those years on NRA Staff. I still believe in the Association as much as I believe in the cause. If I didn't, I'd quit. It's that simple.

I will only ask one thing of you. Even if you won't join the NRA, support "US" by working along side "US" in defense of the Second Amendment freedoms we all support.

Our fight will be long, and some battles will lost, but we will win in the end.

Paul

P.S. -- You can always give me a call to discuss the NRA's efforts in California. My number is at the bottom of this, and every, message.

mikehaas
10-13-2009, 12:02 PM
My intent isn't to "attack" the NRA. I'm just frustrated with them because of how our gun rights get widdled down more and more with each passing year.

I guess I'm just in a bad mood. Sorry guys... :mad:
Well how about a little recognition that we're all in this boat together instead of doing what you don't intend to do (attacking others)?

I don't expect this to mean much to anyone but, honestly, after 15 years dealing with whiners I for one am damn sick and tired of selfish gun-owners that think they know everything and search for any excuse they can think of to NOT get on board. Here you are, reaching back 20+ years to find something to stay pissed off about (and I bet you're wrong about THAT!) Y'know, I could care less. You're just another whiner when you do that and as such, you're a dime a dozen. And in this economy, that's not much.

If we're going to waste time with what makes us angry, I would say gun owners that say things like YOU did are near the top of my list. Even more than anti-gunners - one EXPECTS them to attack us, but when the guns get trained from behind our own lines, it's a damn shame.

Right under those out-of-state fools that respond to pro-gun posts on other forums warning about things like AB 962 with "MOVE OUT!" and "GOD, YOU PEOPLE SUCK" and other intelligent comments.

Thank God for the real patriots on this forum like kestryll, bweise, gene, oaklander, etc - I wish I could list you all but you know who you are - and everyone else does too.

remington
10-13-2009, 12:08 PM
Not going to change the way things are. Sorry to be a downer, but the legisslative sent it up passed by the votes needed and Arnold signed it.

LiquidFlorian
10-13-2009, 12:10 PM
Well how about a little recognition that we're all in this boat together instead of doing what you don't intend to do (attacking others)?

I don't mean to pick on you (and I don't expect this to mean much to anyone) but, honestly, after 15 years dealing with whiners I for one am damn sick and tired of selfish gun-owners that think they know everything and search for any excuse they can think of to NOT get on board. Here you are, reaching back 20+ years to find something to stay pissed off about (and I bet you're wrong about THAT!) Y'know, I could care less. You're just another whiner when you do that and as such, you're a dime a dozen. And in this economy, that's not much.

If we're going to waste time with what makes us angry, I would say gun owners that say things like YOU did are near the top of my list. Even more than anti-gunners - one EXPECTS them to attack us, but when the guns get trained from behind our own lines, it's a damn shame.

Right under those out-of-state fools that respond to pro-gun posts on other forums warning about things like AB 962 with "MOVE OUT!" and "GOD, YOU PEOPLE SUCK" and other intelligent comments.

Thank God for the real patriots on this forum like kestryll, bweise, gene, oaklander, etc - I wish I could list you all but you know who you are - and everyone else does too.

+1 on it all....

Nothing galls me more then hearing the "LoL... Move..." response to our problems.

Blackhawk556
10-13-2009, 12:14 PM
this is for those saying the NRA isn't doing anything

dantodd
10-13-2009, 12:24 PM
With respect to this - I think that it is completely doable. AB 962 did not pass with much of a margin, and we now have a bunch more outraged gun owners on our side.

I find it very difficult to get behind AB373 simply because, as Gene is so fond of saying, gun owners are greatly outnumbered in California and 2/3rds of Californians are anti-gun.

I do hope that the antis get "danzaed (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=danza)" for interfering with the second amendment and the ICC in this one.

Interstate commerce is the domain of the national legislature and I'd much rather see our legislative political capital spent protecting mail-order ammunition sales there than trying to get pro-gun legislation (especially when designed specifically to overturn a just passed law) passed in CA.

bwiese
10-13-2009, 1:20 PM
I find it very difficult to get behind AB373 simply because, as Gene is so fond of saying, gun owners are greatly outnumbered in California and 2/3rds of Californians are anti-gun.

I do hope that the antis get "danzaed (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=danza)" for interfering with the second amendment and the ICC in this one.

Interstate commerce is the domain of the national legislature and I'd much rather see our legislative political capital spent protecting mail-order ammunition sales there than trying to get pro-gun legislation (especially when designed specifically to overturn a just passed law) passed in CA.

We can get incremental bills thru - maybe it takes once or twice or thrice.
Sometimes 'sweeteners' can be added. Sometimes the sentiments change over time - and sometimes legs are willing to revote on a bill once they find out it has legal issues :)

Look how well the single-shot exemption worked for us ;)

Never forgo a 2nd bite at the apple :)

soundwave
10-13-2009, 1:45 PM
Try Assemblymember.Hagman@assembly.ca.gov

Thanks :)

E-mail sent.

Untamed1972
10-13-2009, 2:13 PM
Thank God for the real patriots on this forum like kestryll, bweise, gene, oaklander, etc - I wish I could list you all but you know who you are - and everyone else does too.


Although I understand much of what you're saying and in trying to get people motivated.....but I take a little offense to the statement above. The people you listed we are all grateful for....and they have the skills to be the pointy end of the spear on the legal front right now.....skills many of us dont have. That does not make any of us "fake patriots". Right now there is only so much many of can do. Aside from donating money and writing letters / phone calls we are all having to put ourselves into the hands of others right now in hopes of making some ground.

That's hard for some of us to do, considering that most gun-owners are people who believe in self-reliance having to trust your future to someone else is hard to do.

So please understand the frustrations of many that have been expressed here. They feel like they've been doing what has been asked of them and perhaps all they could do, and put themselves in the hands of those with the skills to fight on the legal fronts, and it was still to no avail. It's like screaming for help in the middle of hurricane sometimes. Sometimes for us "common folk" the fronts the battles are being fought on now are rather nebulous and/or abstract, with much going on behind closed doors and in places we dont get to see or know about. The only place we "common folk" have to look at to gage success is wins or losses in court and wins or losses in legislation. So when something like 962 gets passed it is seen as a loss.

I think of some of the responses I've gotten from legislators to letters I've written, yes they're canned responses, but the message of the letters are "We dont give a crap what you think and will do what we want to do anyway." And as with 962.....it seems that is exactly what they've done. So just please try and understand the frustration of the "common man" before you start calling into question their patriotism. Because I can bet you that many of those "common men" would not hesitate to answer a real call to arms in defense of their home ground were that need to arise.....they are ready to fight.....but they're being asked to stand easy for the time being....and that's not an easy thing to do when it feels like every second you stand still you're losing more ground.

slocum
10-13-2009, 2:26 PM
Note: To send Assemblyman Hagman an e-mail through the form on his .gov page, you must enter an address in his district. Otherwise you get an error message.

Looking forward to reading the bill :)

So you're saying that before one goes to his website, it would behoove one to visit Google maps and learn a little bit about the way the district is laid out?

I'm with ya!

s

soundwave
10-13-2009, 2:37 PM
So you're saying that before one goes to his website, it would behoove one to visit Google maps and learn a little bit about the way the district is laid out?

I'm with ya!

s


Yes, and very eloquently put :D

bigcalidave
10-13-2009, 2:37 PM
Good to hear! go NRA!

Foulball
10-13-2009, 2:38 PM
honestly, after 15 years dealing with whiners I for one am damn sick and tired of selfish gun-owners that think they know everything and search for any excuse they can think of to NOT get on board.

Even more than anti-gunners - one EXPECTS them to attack us, but when the guns get trained from behind our own lines, it's a damn shame.


+1

Well put Mike.

Thank you everyone for your continued hard work.

wildhawker
10-13-2009, 2:41 PM
Untamed,

We all did the best we could with AB962. It is what it is; it's time we move on.

I understand that in these difficult times, money for donations may be scarce; it's nearly free, however, to make sure our family members, friends and coworkers are members of NRA/CRPA/CGN. Give them the strength of our voice. From there, we should be active in volunteering and recruiting others to volunteer at the local level; maybe it's for a MC or FoNRA, maybe it's to campaign for a pro-2A candidate or for some other community event. Maybe you find another way to reach out and make a dent in the anti's worldview. Regardless, build and reinforce the the local infrastructure and leverage their resources for those times when heavy-hitting state-level action is required. Let us not simply trust others to do it for us. Instead, let us be both creative and relentless in our pursuit of liberty.

We did what was asked of us, and we did it well. Sometimes that is not enough, but it does not mean that we failed. It's easy to be good when it's easy. Now it's not so easy, but I'm confident that our team will prevail. I tell you today that I'm proud of what *we* accomplished and I'm damn sure not going to let this speedbump slow us down; to the contrary, it provides even more motivation for us to expand our efforts and press on.

We are each others' support structure - you are not in this alone. The strong hands of this community are held out, ready to pick those warriors up off the groud and dust them off so we can move forward to the next objective. We aren't leaving anyone behind, but we will not be standing still. Will you join us for another go?

Untamed1972
10-13-2009, 2:55 PM
Untamed,

We all did the best we could with AB962. It is what it is; it's time we move on.

I understand that in these difficult times, money for donations may be scarce; it's nearly free, however, to make sure our family members, friends and coworkers are members of NRA/CRPA/CGN. Give them the strength of our voice. From there, we should be active in volunteering and recruiting others to volunteer at the local level; maybe it's for a MC or FoNRA, maybe it's to campaign for a pro-2A candidate or for some other community event. Maybe you find another way to reach out and make a dent in the anti's worldview. Regardless, build and reinforce the the local infrastructure and leverage their resources for those times when heavy-hitting state-level action is required. Let us not simply trust others to do it for us. Instead, let us be both creative and relentless in our pursuit of liberty.

We did what was asked of us, and we did it well. Sometimes that is not enough, but it does not mean that we failed. It's easy to be good when it's easy. Now it's not so easy, but I'm confident that our team will prevail. I tell you today that I'm proud of what *we* accomplished and I'm damn sure not going to let this speedbump slow us down; to the contrary, it provides even more motivation for us to expand our efforts and press on.

We are each others' support structure - you are not in this alone. The strong hands of this community are held out, ready to pick those warriors up off the groud and dust them off so we can move forward to the next objective. We aren't leaving anyone behind, but we will not be standing still. Will you join us for another go?


I think much of what I've seen is just people venting their frustrations. They just need a little time to gather themselves up and get moving again.....the last thing they need is someone calling into question their patriotism because they are venting their frustrations and disappointment. That's all I was saying.

I think some folks...me included...have spent our lives working and supporting ourselves...and were busy with minding our own business that getting deeply involved in the political process never came to mind. So speaking for myself.....when people say "get involved"....my response is "doing what and doing it where?"

It is also difficult I think for some of "common folk" who have made a life of living in reality and logic to know how to get involved in the political process which seems to be devoid of logic and realism.

So maybe I am just speaking for myself.....but I think others prolly share my sentiment....we want to fight....but we dont know how and just saying "become an NRA/CRPA member" basically comes across as "give more money". I am the sole supporter of myself in all ways so my discretionary time is limited. I am not opposed to volunteering what time I have, but it needs to be focused in the right directions, I dont have time to waste. And in all honestly....I don't know where that focus should be. And I'm sure I'm not alone.

chunger
10-13-2009, 2:58 PM
We" have never been successful in overturning ANY statewide anti-gun bill once passed.


I'm just one of the normal folks here who keeps an eye on this section of the forum and helps out whenever I can financially and with contact to legislators, but from my recollection:

"We" have caused legislation to pass that strips the DOJ of the power to add items at will to the "AW list" ensuring the continued sale and use of legally configured off-list rifles.

"We" have fought and overturned un-lawful handgun bans in SF through the courts.

"We" have got 2 previous versions of AB962 vetoed along with many other bad bills by utilizing the same tactics that were implemented here. Even at a 50% or less bill stoppage rate, it is worth the effort.

I'm sure others here can add pages to the good that has been done in California in concerted effort with the NRA.

5hundo
10-13-2009, 3:20 PM
So maybe I am just speaking for myself.....but I think others prolly share my sentiment....we want to fight....but we dont know how and just saying "become an NRA/CRPA member" basically comes across as "give more money". I am the sole supporter of myself in all ways so my discretionary time is limited. I am not opposed to volunteering what time I have, but it needs to be focused in the right directions, I dont have time to waste. And in all honestly....I don't know where that focus should be. And I'm sure I'm not alone.

I know that I share your sentiment...

This time around, I did more than some and I'm smart enough to know that there are many others that did much more than me. However, I did call he governor's office multiple times, I sent e-mails to his office and I even tried to get in touch with a friend of mine who works there for updates...

I don't know if that negates my "sitting on my butt" status but I guess I'm not the judge of that... (nor do I care, really)

However, what Untamed said rings true in my mind. The NRA is a very wealthy lobby group, which is supposed to be looking out for us. I'm not against them, I just want them to revise their strategy and try something else. At this point, whatever they're doing is not working.

wildhawker
10-13-2009, 3:30 PM
Thanks for your candor.

I agree, the past few days (and probably a few to come) will contain much venting of frustrations about the passage of this abomination of a bill. When folks are ready, we'll be here for them. The unhelpful thing we must avoid is directing our anger over being hurt by the legislature and Governor at the people who are fighting every day for us. They are just as frustrated, if not moreso. I can tell you've probably experienced what it is to wake up every day and know that there is no coasting through it; Ed, Paul, Tom, Mike - they have to fight uphill every minute of every day. It's not easy on anyone, and to think they're exempt isn't fair to them as human beings.

I completely understand that it's natural to wish to be left alone, especially since many- like you- go about their business and steer clear of messy politics. While that would be nice, it doesn't tend to work that way. Environmental laws, taxes, corrections... the list goes on and on, but the crimson thread is that we're *in* the process regardless if we want to be or not. With that in mind, we probably aren't very well built to tackle multiple issues concurrently. If 2A isn't your issue, then I encourage you to find one that you're passionate about. If it is, there are plenty of places I'm sure Paul could use your help.

I didn't intend to be ambiguous when I asked you to get involved. For a more personalized repsonse, please call Paul or myself and I'm sure a good fit for your interests, time limitations and skills can not only be identified but is waiting for you right now.

Our time is precious - that's why it's so important that we take it upon ourselves to talk to those leaders who are heading up these various efforts and ask them what they need. Please don't be shy, all; I've met Paul Payne, and I can tell you that he's as genuine and honest a person as there is, and beyond that he's a very personable man as well. I'm confident that he and the MCs will point you in the right direction.

Becoming an NRA/CRPA member is not a costly endeavor; CGN is free. However, and trust me on this, what we do takes money and time. That's the bottom line. I understand that times are tight, but I'd ask you this: what's more important to you- to buy that box of ammo or to support those orgs that will secure our precious rights in these coming years through tireless litigation, lobbying and grassroots culture change? If people really understood how little we give to RKBA in comparison to our expenditures on other things, like coffee... I've said it before, if the active membership here (~11k) donated just $1/mo = $132k/yr; $5/mo = $660k/yr. Imagine what our world would look like.

Don't be discouraged by this bump in the road. We've lived through worse, and we'll live through this. Frankly, I think this issue has galvanized quite a number of gunnies that were on the fence before. If what I have seen over the past few weeks is in fact what I think it is, the antis just pissed off the wrong sleeping giant. We are winning.



I think much of what I've seen is just people venting their frustrations. They just need a little time to gather themselves up and get moving again.....the last thing they need is someone calling into question their patriotism because they are venting their frustrations and disappointment. That's all I was saying.

I think some folks...me included...have spent our lives working and supporting ourselves...and were busy with minding our own business that getting deeply involved in the political process never came to mind. So speaking for myself.....when people say "get involved"....my response is "doing what and doing it where?"

It is also difficult I think for some of "common folk" who have made a life of living in reality and logic to know how to get involved in the political process which seems to be devoid of logic and realism.

So maybe I am just speaking for myself.....but I think others prolly share my sentiment....we want to fight....but we dont know how and just saying "become an NRA/CRPA member" basically comes across as "give more money". I am the sole supporter of myself in all ways so my discretionary time is limited. I am not opposed to volunteering what time I have, but it needs to be focused in the right directions, I dont have time to waste. And in all honestly....I don't know where that focus should be. And I'm sure I'm not alone.

wildhawker
10-13-2009, 3:38 PM
Actually, what they're doing is quite effective. It's unfortunate that you continue to ignore the political realities and maintain unreasonable expectations of a member organization that relies on a shocklingly small number of motivated members to support its substantial operations.

I have to ask: what's the deal with all the "them"s and "they"s? Do you really see yourself as apart from "them" (us)?

I know that I share your sentiment...

This time around, I did more than some and I'm smart enough to know that there are many others that did much more than me. However, I did call he governor's office multiple times, I sent e-mails to his office and I even tried to get in touch with a friend of mine who works there for updates...

I don't know if that negates my "sitting on my butt" status but I guess I'm not the judge of that... (nor do I care, really)

However, what Untamed said rings true in my mind. The NRA is a very wealthy lobby group, which is supposed to be looking out for us. I'm not against them, I just want them to revise their strategy and try something else. At this point, whatever they're doing is not working.

bodger
10-13-2009, 3:52 PM
I'm just one of the normal folks here who keeps an eye on this section of the forum and helps out whenever I can financially and with contact to legislators, but from my recollection:

"We" have caused legislation to pass that strips the DOJ of the power to add items at will to the "AW list" ensuring the continued sale and use of legally configured off-list rifles.

"We" have fought and overturned un-lawful handgun bans in SF through the courts.

"We" have got 2 previous versions of AB962 vetoed along with many other bad bills by utilizing the same tactics that were implemented here. Even at a 50% or less bill stoppage rate, it is worth the effort.

I'm sure others here can add pages to the good that has been done in California in concerted effort with the NRA.

50% or less bill stoppage.

We could be rendered gunless (or unable to buy any ammo) in a decade at that rate.

It's worth the effort to deter, but with that statistic, if it's close to accurate, we aren't staying even, much less gaining ground.

wildhawker
10-13-2009, 3:59 PM
Relax. Incorporation will change the game, esp. if we end up w/ strict scrutiny out of McDonald.

We're winning, and our W:L ratio is going to go from good to "gun control isn't worth it anymore".

50% or less bill stoppage.

We could be rendered gunless (or unable to buy any ammo) in a decade at that rate.

It's worth the effort to deter, but with that statistic, if it's close to accurate, we aren't staying even, much less gaining ground.

Ding126
10-13-2009, 4:09 PM
Brandon,
Your a 1st class person. It's a privilege to know you. Thank you for everything you have done for CGN and all of us here on the forum and CA.
I know there are many more behind the scene who are working just as hard. Thank you and thanks to everyone.

We lost the battle but not the war !

wildog8812
10-13-2009, 4:13 PM
Looks like I will be making a donation to the NRA to help this fight.

obeygiant
10-13-2009, 4:19 PM
Actually, this is NOT the first-time that this ammo registration scheme has been presented to us!

I remember sitting in a republican Assemblyman's Office, a few years ago, when he told me and NRA-ILA CA State Liaison Ed Worley that we would have to "Polish this turd" and accept the fact that AB2714 (http://calnra.com/legs.shtml?year=2006&aex=ab2714&ex=&displaypos=&displaystat=#ab2714) would pass the legislature and be signed by the Governor. He told us, "It's just like buying wine over the Internet and it's not that bad." He attempted to get us to support AB2714 (http://calnra.com/legs.shtml?year=2006&aex=ab2714&ex=&displaypos=&displaystat=#ab2714) in exchange for other things to happen. We refused to cut a deal and Ed assured him that the NRA would fight this bill to the end. We won when the Governor vetoed AB2714 (http://calnra.com/legs.shtml?year=2006&aex=ab2714&ex=&displaypos=&displaystat=#ab2714).

The final version of AB962 (http://nramemberscouncils.com/legs.shtml?summary=ab962&year=2009), as signed by the Governor, is very similar to AB2714 (http://calnra.com/legs.shtml?year=2006&aex=ab2714&ex=&displaypos=&displaystat=#ab2714).

Paul

There was also

2008
AB2062 (DeLeon/Scott/Hancock) would ban the sale and transfer of more than 50 rounds per month of Handgun Ammunition between private citizens without a vendor license
2007
AB362 (DeLeon/Scott) would require ammo sales Registration but also require a New Handgun Ammunition Purchase Permit that must be renewed every 5 years.
2004
SB 1152 (Scott) Ammunition sales registration

Nevermore
10-13-2009, 4:24 PM
Sending Assemblyman Hagman a note of support with good old paper and a real signature at the bottom.

5hundo
10-13-2009, 4:25 PM
50% or less bill stoppage.

We could be rendered gunless (or unable to buy any ammo) in a decade at that rate.

It's worth the effort to deter, but with that statistic, if it's close to accurate, we aren't staying even, much less gaining ground.

+1

Agree whole-heartedly...

(looks like I'm not alone in my fears)

Nevermore
10-13-2009, 4:33 PM
A bit of digging on Assembly Member Hagman's website turns up a link to AB373 (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/postquery?bill_number=ab_373&sess=0910&house=B&author=Hagman):

BILL NUMBER: AB 373 INTRODUCED
BILL TEXT


INTRODUCED BY Assembly Member Hagman

FEBRUARY 23, 2009

An act to amend Section 12040 of the Penal Code, relating to
firearms.



LEGISLATIVE COUNSEL'S DIGEST


AB 373, as introduced, Hagman. Firearms.
Existing law makes it a crime to carry a firearm in public while
masked, and provides various exceptions to this requirement.
This bill would make a technical, nonsubstantive change to
provisions making these exceptions.
Vote: majority. Appropriation: no. Fiscal committee: no.
State-mandated local program: no.


THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA DO ENACT AS FOLLOWS:

SECTION 1. Section 12040 of the Penal Code is amended to read:
12040. (a) A person commits criminal possession of a firearm when
he or she carries a firearm in a public place or on any public
street while masked so as to hide his or her identity.
(b) Criminal possession of a firearm is punishable by imprisonment
in the state prison or by imprisonment in a county jail not to
exceed one year.
(c) Subdivision (a) shall not apply to the following:
(1) A peace officer who is in the performance of his or her
duties.
(2) Full-time paid peace officers of other states and the federal
government who are carrying out official duties while in this state.
(3) Any A person summoned by any of
the officers enumerated in paragraph (1) or (2) to assist in making
arrests or preserving the peace while he or she is actually engaged
in assisting that officer.
(4) The possession of an unloaded firearm or a firearm loaded with
blank ammunition by an authorized participant in, or while
rehearsing for, a motion picture, television, video production,
entertainment event, entertainment activity, or lawfully organized
and conducted activity when the participant lawfully uses the firearm
as part of that production, event, or activity.
(5) The possession of a firearm by a licensed hunter while
actually engaged in lawful hunting, or while going directly to or
returning directly from the hunting expedition.


I'm guessing he's going to revise and resubmit the bill?

jdberger
10-13-2009, 4:35 PM
Please don't hold your breath. I doubt you look good in blue. :D

"THEM" who is "THEM"?? Don't you mean "US"??? ;)

Nope. He means "them". :(

dantodd
10-13-2009, 4:38 PM
A bit of digging on Assembly Member Hagman's website turns up a link to AB373 (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/postquery?bill_number=ab_373&sess=0910&house=B&author=Hagman):

I'm guessing he's going to revise and resubmit the bill?

Please take the time to read the original post in the thread entirely:

Therefore, the NRA and Assemblyman Hagman have agreed to amend AB373 into legislation that would repeal AB962.

H Paul Payne
10-13-2009, 5:12 PM
A bit of digging on Assembly Member Hagman's website turns up a link to AB373 (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/postquery?bill_number=ab_373&sess=0910&house=B&author=Hagman):

I'm guessing he's going to revise and resubmit the bill?

Soon.

The amendments are being made as you read this.

Paul

As I stated earlier today, amendments are being made.

In other words, the previous version of the bill was a "spot bill" and has no relevance to what the final version will look like.

Paul

CHS
10-13-2009, 5:34 PM
I have to say, when AB962 passed I was extremely disappointed and depressed. I couldn't smile the entire day. I was so incredibly angry after all the work we had done to stop this steaming pile of sh*t.

I had had it. I was finally done with CA. I love this state so much, but I hate living here. I have put up with so much just to keep living here in a place that I both love and hate.

But AB962 pushed me over the edge. Monday morning I decided to myself that it's finally time to pack up and leave, and I hated myself a little bit for it.

However, reading news like this brings a tear to my eye and a smile to my face. To all the people that are constantly screaming about how the NRA doesn't do anything, I would very politely ask that you go straight to hell.

This is incredible. This is amazing.

Paul Payne, Ed Worley, Mike Haas, you guys are my heroes.

I have always tried to put in as much effort as I can to support the 2A. I give money when I can and where I can. I'm a member of the NRA. I attend members council meetings when I can make the time, and I volunteer for the Calguns booth's when I can. I've never felt that I've done "enough" though, and I probably never will.

Those guys though... Paul, Ed, Mike (and others, you all know who you are), are heroes. The DAY AFTER this steaming pile of legislation gets passed, they are already INSTRUMENTAL in getting a bill introduced to repeal it.

Folks, if you can't see this for what it is (hint: AMAZING) then you are blind and stupid. And if the NRA didn't believe in it, truly truly believe, then they wouldn't waste their time and money (OUR money) supporting it.

I just might stay in California after all.

Paul, I think the last time we ended up at a dinner table together, you paid the bill. Well I want you to know that dinner's on me next time.

H Paul Payne
10-13-2009, 5:45 PM
Paul, I think the last time we ended up at a dinner table together, you paid the bill. Well I want you to know that dinner's on me next time.

Let me have/buy your license plate from you and we'll call it even! :D

Paul

P.S. --- Thanks for the kind words.

bwiese
10-13-2009, 5:52 PM
Paul, I think the last time we ended up at a dinner table together, you paid the bill. Well I want you to know that dinner's on me next time.

I second the motion.

But don't take him to Denny's! He has the menu memorized.

(Sorry Paul couldn't resist.)

Paul knows there's a steak up here waiting for him.

CaliColin
10-13-2009, 6:34 PM
We can all benefit by being less emotional and more methodical in our approach to preserve our rights.. Isn't this true for most of life's battles? No one respects a cry baby.

Midtown Gunner
10-13-2009, 8:04 PM
Being in California we sometimes forget that there are 49 other states, and none of them don't put California's needs before their own. The National Rifle Association fights battles in all the states, and in DC, the Territories, and at the Federal level. In the past the NRA has fought against unconstitutional Cali laws because it does not want precedent to take root here and then spread like zebra mussels to the rest of the country. In my opinion only, it was not because of the fervency of CA gunners in defending our own eroding rights. We used to be quite fatalistic about the inevitability of losing them.

Pro-gun support and activism has never been as strong as it is now. This board is more active than it ever has been (I've been a member before under different names). We have more Appleseed shoots, and more Riflemen than any other state--and we will soon have more than all the other states COMBINED. The more we fight for ourselves the more the NRA will fight with us, because there are a lot of NRA members here who are fighting back. Any national organization ignores us at their own folly.

But this isn't about an amorphous "Them". This is about "US" standing up for our State and Federal rights, HERE, where WE live. How each of you decides to participate is up to you. Me, I'm involved in the Appleseed Project. I'm a member of the NRA too but I don't spend much other time or money with them because I have precious little to spare, and I chose to give what I have to Appleseed. How each of you decides to contribute is up to you, and I won't denigrate your choices. In return, don't put down mine or that of anyone else.

As gun owners and as champions of gun rights we CAN lead the country. Texans? They have no idea what's at stake. So GET INVOLVED! Don't just join and send in a check; give of your time and effort if you can.

dwtt
10-13-2009, 8:14 PM
I'm glad to be a NRA member in California and supported CGF with some small donations. This bill to repeal AB962 vindicates my decisions. Whatever we need to do to get this bill passed once it's reintroduced, I'll help where I can. I hope others are going to join in.

MrBrent
10-13-2009, 9:20 PM
Assemblyman Hagman is my local guy. He was the mayor here in Chino Hills where I live and we elected him to the Assembly. He is a great guy. He started AB357 trying to change the state to a shall issue. Now he is fighting this new battle. The bottom line is he is trying and we need to let him know he is appreciated. I visited him at his office in Sacramento and he was very appreciative that we took time to stop by and show our support.
He even pulled some people from a burning car after a traffic collision in Sac.:hurray:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/02/chino-hills-***.html

1859sharps
10-13-2009, 9:20 PM
guys...don't give. I know 962 passing and signed to law is disappointing. But it's only been a couple days. It takes a bit of time to come up with a game plan to counter....normally.

The ink wasn't even dry and Calguns foundation was unveiling their challenge plan. Within hours CalNra is talking about introducing a bill to repeal the law. This is so cool. Yes, the legislative approach won't be easy, but you have to try. otherwise you might miss an opportunity. If this bill even gets out of committee that will be huge.

Sometimes I wonder what the average age is on this board. I only bring that question up because as an "oldish fart", I have to tell you. Compared to 20 years ago, this kind of pre planing, quick response etc is unheard of. Things are changing, I hope you can see that.

I remember a time when the CRPA used to be able to brag NO BILLs past. wasn't that long ago. But they fell asleep and we had a bad run for about the last 10 -12 years.

Now we have a CRPA that is seeing a changing of the guard. We have Calgunsfoundation and calguns.net. some of you younger memeber probably have no idea how significant this is growing up with the internet. just having calguns.net for sharing info and coordinating efforts is HUGE. Then of course there is the NRA.

Don't give up, don't call it quits. We have a real chance to turn things around. But it won't be over night. and we won't win every initiative.

Let me share another "oldish fart" take on things. In the past the strategy seemed to be stay under the radar. fight the bill, if passed suck it up. Grumble and talked about the good old days. Remember when before Bill X became law.....

Today, we are seeing a take the fight to them approach, when bad bills become law, there is a viable plan to challenge it in court....ALL READY THOUGHT UP before the bill became law. Do you have any idea how big that is?????

So how can you help. Financial contributions are always a good place to start They don't have to be big. Cost of a box of ammo at least once a year. We have the numbers, we just need to get more of those numbers involved. And to stick around even when we lose one.

Even more helpful, introduce someone who isn't currently exercising their 2nd amendment rights, to their 2nd amendment rights. Part of wining this fight is numbers. The more people who understand what is at stake, the more power we will have with the politicians.

To borrow a phrase from our President....we can... but only if we don't fracture and give up when we hit a bump in the road.

artherd
10-13-2009, 10:21 PM
It ought to go without saying that NRA has been hard at work on this for a long time now.

Another example of things working behind the scenes that they can't always tell you about right away (or, sometimes, ever.)

Hat's off to Paul, Ed and the rest of the CA NRA Dream Team! WE ARE THE NRA!

CHS
10-13-2009, 10:31 PM
It ought to go without saying that NRA has been hard at work on this for a long time now.


What are you talking about?

A bunch of people on this board told me that the NRA doesn't DO anything. And that they've written off California.

:p

oaklander
10-13-2009, 10:36 PM
LOL

Pretty much all of them were noobies too. The people who actually take the time to read and understand things actually KNOW the score. . .

Yesterday, I felt like the average IQ of Calguns users went down about 15 percent. Today, it seems that more rational minds are prevailing.

What are you talking about?

A bunch of people on this board told me that the NRA doesn't DO anything. And that they've written off California.

:p

hoffmang
10-13-2009, 10:56 PM
For those who doubt.

Which strategy do you think works better:

1. A legal challenge.

2. A legal challenge backed up by a bill that could moot the legal challenge?

Please think before your foot muffles your supposedly well thought out mutterings.

-Gene

CHS
10-13-2009, 11:07 PM
2. A legal challenge backed up by a bill that could moot the legal challenge?

Please think before your foot muffles your supposedly well thought out mutterings.

You people and your crazy steam rollers!!

HondaMasterTech
10-13-2009, 11:36 PM
What exactly would be ammended to cause a repeal of AB962? That wording from NRA sounds strange.

CHS
10-13-2009, 11:40 PM
What exactly would be ammended to cause a repeal of AB962? That wording from NRA sounds strange.

I'm guessing something like: "This act also repeals AB962"

That's the short form.

So when it's signed, everything in AB962 gets struck from the books.

H Paul Payne
10-14-2009, 12:05 AM
What exactly would be ammended to cause a repeal of AB962? That wording from NRA sounds strange.

When did you see any "wording from NRA" regarding AB373??

Paul

FreedomIsNotFree
10-14-2009, 12:14 AM
In politics such as these, there are often small victories that go unnoticed by the majority. For example, the ruckus caused by our calls, faxes, emails, etc. very well could have played a role in the defeat of 2 other "gun" bills.

Additionally, don't think our opposition hasn't taken notice...a strong showing has the ability to thwart future attempts at further encroachment.

Now's the time to re-double our efforts, not question ourselves.

wildhawker
10-14-2009, 12:28 AM
In politics such as these, there are often small victories that go unnoticed by the majority. For example, the ruckus caused by our calls, faxes, emails, etc. very well could have played a role in the defeat of 2 other "gun" bills.

Additionally, don't think our opposition hasn't taken notice...a strong showing has the ability to thwart future attempts at further encroachment.

Now's the time to re-double our efforts, not question ourselves.

I know it's been a while since I've told you, but :wub:

armandolo
10-14-2009, 1:34 AM
Man, I'm surprised at some posts. Instead of praising that there is an attempt to overturn AB962, you guys are just sitting on the couch and yapping about it. If you are not doing anything at least encourage others to attempt. Even a small attempts is a shot at the problem.

TheBundo
10-14-2009, 2:28 AM
I called and voted at least 20 times against 962. It does no good. Arnie should resign with prejudice NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Everyone should boycott Arnie's stupid movies, in any form, set up anti-Arnie websites, anything we can do. He's a Kennedy now. Maybe he has a brain tumor.................

M1A Rifleman
10-14-2009, 8:44 AM
I wish them luck and I hope it works but I'm not holding my breath...


I hate to be the wet blanket, but I agree. This route is waste of time since it will never see the govs desk, as it won't pass the dem controlled legislature - just like the highly promoted bill earlier this year that was to loosen the CCW restrictions. Members were eargly celebrating how they were to carry when it passed - only the bill died, which was predictable.


It would seem better time would be spent with an NRA law suite.

wildhawker
10-14-2009, 9:37 AM
There's going to be a lawsuit (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=3197663&postcount=35) - you must have missed that part.

Is it correct of me to assume you have so little faith in the NRA that you feel they would expend substantial resources on a provably fruitless effort?

I'm sure there's something you can do to help one of the above efforts. One should really take it upon themselves to support our brothers in arms and work to kill AB962, one way or another.

I hate to be the wet blanket, but I agree. This route is waste of time since it will never see the govs desk, as it won't pass the dem controlled legislature - just like the highly promoted bill earlier this year that was to loosen the CCW restrictions. Members were eargly celebrating how they were to carry when it passed - only the bill died, which was predictable.


It would seem better time would be spent with an NRA law suite.

M1A Rifleman
10-14-2009, 9:55 AM
There's going to be a lawsuit (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=3197663&postcount=35) - you must have missed that part.

Is it correct of me to assume you have so little faith in the NRA that you feel they would expend substantial resources on a provably fruitless effort?

I'm sure there's something you can do to help one of the above efforts. One should really take it upon themselves to support our brothers in arms and work to kill AB962, one way or another.

1) A lawsuite is a good start.

2) In short, yes, I have no faith in the Cal NRA. I think the national organization wrote this state off long ago, with the exception of throwing their hat in the ring for easy win issues.

I became interested in this hobby just about 1984. Since then the NRA has accomplished little IMOP.

bodger
10-14-2009, 10:00 AM
It's like the old saying about chicken soup when you have a cold. There's no guarantee that it will work, but it can't hurt.

1859sharps
10-14-2009, 10:18 AM
I hate to be the wet blanket, but I agree. This route is waste of time since it will never see the govs desk, as it won't pass the dem controlled legislature - just like the highly promoted bill earlier this year that was to loosen the CCW restrictions. Members were eargly celebrating how they were to carry when it passed - only the bill died, which was predictable.


It would seem better time would be spent with an NRA law suite.

so you would rather we do nothing? Not try.

the ammo bill took 3 or 4 tries to pass. we try one bill for CCW, it fails to pass...what we throw up our arms and stop trying?

CCW and repeal of 962 through court challenge will be nice. CCW and repeal of 962 through legislative efforts would be even nicer. sends a more powerful message.

jdberger
10-14-2009, 10:20 AM
It's like the old saying about chicken soup when you have a cold. There's no guarantee that it will work, but it can't hurt.

Someone's coming around.

Welcome to the fight.

1859sharps
10-14-2009, 10:22 AM
1) A lawsuite is a good start.

2) In short, yes, I have no faith in the Cal NRA. I think the national organization wrote this state off long ago, with the exception of throwing their hat in the ring for easy win issues.

I became interested in this hobby just about 1984. Since then the NRA has accomplished little IMOP.

for the record....any hobby aspect of gun ownership is a bonus. we are fighting to protect a right.

thinking of this as a hobby might be part of your problem.

CHS
10-14-2009, 10:30 AM
2) I think the national organization wrote this state off long ago, with the exception of throwing their hat in the ring for easy win issues.


Then you're ignorantly not paying attention.

Why would a national organization that has "written us off" have the ONLY full-time paid lobbyist in OUR STATE? What about the other 49? Why would they waste a paycheck for a guy in a state they have written off?

His name is Ed Worley, by the way, and he would be happy to explain to you just what the NRA has done for California and how little they have written us off.


I became interested in this hobby just about 1984. Since then the NRA has accomplished little IMOP.

Don't be ignorant, and start paying attention.

dustoff31
10-14-2009, 10:30 AM
Personally, I have abandoned hope for any betterment of the CA RKBA situation other than through legal or administrative actions. Or as I have said before "having changes rammed down the legislators throats" by some higher authority.

That said, I see no reason, or point to make for some to denigrate the efforts of those who believe that they can and will make a difference through other means.

stuntdummy
10-14-2009, 10:35 AM
Everyone should boycott Arnie's stupid movies, in any form, set up anti-Arnie websites, anything we can do. He's a Kennedy now. Maybe he has a brain tumor.................

It's nagt a toomah!

Untamed1972
10-14-2009, 11:24 AM
In politics such as these, there are often small victories that go unnoticed by the majority. For example, the ruckus caused by our calls, faxes, emails, etc. very well could have played a role in the defeat of 2 other "gun" bills.

Additionally, don't think our opposition hasn't taken notice...a strong showing has the ability to thwart future attempts at further encroachment.

Now's the time to re-double our efforts, not question ourselves.


The bolded comment above is exactly my point though. Maybe things are bettern than many of us realize, but that's because we don't know about the things going on behind the scenes that would bolster more hope.

I know sometimes for legal stategy reasons things cant be openly revealed before the time is right. That is where the "trust" and "placing ourselves in others hands" comes in, which is not always easy to do, especially when a preceived loss comes about.

Yes...the ammo bill was tried 3 different times.....the problem is that it finally worked. Hopefully with incorporation such attempts will start to dwindle. But as I've said here before, it IS frustrating when it seems that these bills can be written and passed at an exponentially greater rate then they can be fought in the courts. It just kinda feels like shoveling sand against the tide sometimes.

dantodd
10-14-2009, 11:58 AM
Maybe he has a brain tumor.................

I thought we weren't supposed to pick on her anymore?

HunterJim
10-14-2009, 12:02 PM
NRA's strategy for "repeal" of AB962 is ludicrous: how does the minority party get a bill out of committee chaired by the opposition, through a Legislative house again dominated by the opposition, through the legislative structure in the other house, and finally signed by the same Governor who supported the original bill?

The probability of all this happening in Sacramento is vanishingly small. Get real.

jim

bomb_on_bus
10-14-2009, 12:06 PM
Hopefully this bill can be abolished.

I would rather try something then nothing at all.

But if this does go into effect in 2011 then it spells out the doom for any other state in the union.

CA is the proving grounds for something much larger and complex then what we hve been seeing.

CHS
10-14-2009, 12:06 PM
NRA's strategy for "repeal" of AB962 is ludicrous: how does the minority party get a bill out of committee chaired by the opposition, through a Legislative house again dominated by the opposition, through the legislative structure in the other house, and finally signed by the same Governor who supported the original bill?


If there's one thing that I know, it's that the NRA doesn't waste time and money on things they don't believe they can win.

Unlike the Brady Bunch.

Did you not pay attention to what else is going on with this bill? There is a VERY SOLID legal challenge to the bill that will waste millions of dollars of taxpayers money for the state to fight. The state doesn't have to waste that money fighting a losing court challenge if they have an easy way out, and that's to just repeal the thing.

I find you to be the ludicrous one. You're giving up instead of going down fighting. Well that's fine. Have fun in the lazy chair.

elenius
10-14-2009, 12:28 PM
If they're so scared of the legal challenge, they could just repeal the mail order part of AB962 and keep the fingeprinting etc requirements for local sales. Isn't this the most likely outcome, whether trough legislative or judicial action?

1859sharps
10-14-2009, 12:46 PM
NRA's strategy for "repeal" of AB962 is ludicrous: how does the minority party get a bill out of committee chaired by the opposition, through a Legislative house again dominated by the opposition, through the legislative structure in the other house, and finally signed by the same Governor who supported the original bill?

The probability of all this happening in Sacramento is vanishingly small. Get real.

jim

the fallacy in your thinking is rooted in the concept that this is a Republican vs Democrat issue.

yes, I am aware more often then not, we find support from only the Republican party. But there are pro gun democrats. when we find them we need to support them. then it won't matter which party is dominate.

Once again. please, please, please do not let protection of the 2nd amendment become a Republican issue. One of the reason we are having a hard time is this is happening. And as recent threads and 962 show, just because someone is Republican means nothing. But this should be no shock or surprise because the 2nd amendment is not a Republican cause. Its a freedom issue, its a rights issue. That Republicans support the 2nd is great, but we need Democrats too.

Mitch
10-14-2009, 1:04 PM
That Republicans support the 2nd is great, but we need Democrats too.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=118

curtisfong
10-14-2009, 1:17 PM
Once again. please, please, please do not let protection of the 2nd amendment become a Republican issue. One of the reason we are having a hard time is this is happening. And as recent threads and 962 show, just because someone is Republican means nothing. But this should be no shock or surprise because the 2nd amendment is not a Republican cause. Its a freedom issue, its a rights issue. That Republicans support the 2nd is great, but we need Democrats too.

Considering the political climate of CA, I do not think there is a more important issue than this one when it comes to 2A rights. It should be front and center in everybody's minds if they expect *any* real progress in this state. Every single piece of legislation introduced, every lawsuit filed, every candidate's statements MUST be examined with this in mind.

You will not see any meaningful RKBA in CA w/o a significant number of democrats on board. You see the same thing at the federal level with the Blue Dogs.

dustoff31
10-14-2009, 1:26 PM
Considering the political climate of CA, I do not think there is a more important issue than this one when it comes to 2A rights. It should be front and center in everybody's minds if they expect *any* real progress in this state. Every single piece of legislation introduced, every lawsuit filed, every candidate's statements MUST be examined with this in mind.

You will not see any meaningful RKBA in CA w/o a significant number of democrats on board. You see the same thing at the federal level with the Blue Dogs.

I agree. However, the problem is that there doesn't appear to be any Blue Dog type democrats in CA politics. If there are, can someone please point them out?

The closest I can see, in regard to 2A issues is Jerry Brown, who while he might not do anything for us, it seems he is not particulary interested in doing anything to us. But even that would be a welcome change.

bodger
10-14-2009, 1:35 PM
Someone's coming around.

Welcome to the fight.

I have calmed down a bit since Arnie signed this latest insult to our freedom.
I was right pissed off Monday morning when I logged in here and saw what Arnie hath wrought.

But I do have faith in the dedication of the people on this board, and specifically those who are willing to use their professional expertise and talents to get these bills exposed for what they are and get them eradicated.

The bolded comment above is exactly my point though. Maybe things are bettern than many of us realize, but that's because we don't know about the things going on behind the scenes that would bolster more hope.

I know sometimes for legal stategy reasons things cant be openly revealed before the time is right. That is where the "trust" and "placing ourselves in others hands" comes in, which is not always easy to do, especially when a preceived loss comes about.

Yes...the ammo bill was tried 3 different times.....the problem is that it finally worked. Hopefully with incorporation such attempts will start to dwindle. But as I've said here before, it IS frustrating when it seems that these bills can be written and passed at an exponentially greater rate then they can be fought in the courts. It just kinda feels like shoveling sand against the tide sometimes.


This is frustrating for me as well. I've been a CA shooter for 30 years, I remember what it was like for gunnies in the Golden State years ago.

I know some things are actually better now that they were back then, but mostly they aren't. I hate it when I see bill after bill getting passed, seemingly faster than we can ever hope to counter attack and actually gain ground.

And it would appear that this is all about who is running things in Sac. It's debilititating to think that a pro-gun candidate is dead meat, unless maybe they're running for High Sheriff in a gunny county. Which are few.

I'll vote for Jerry Brown if he's our best shot. But I'll have to hold my nose while I do it.
And I don't think he'll ever qualify as a "Pro Gun" candidate. He'll be the lesser evil at best.

blackberg
10-14-2009, 1:53 PM
I agree. However, the problem is that there doesn't appear to be any Blue Dog type democrats in CA politics. If there are, can someone please point them out?

The closest I can see, in regard to 2A issues is Jerry Brown, who while he might not do anything for us, it seems he is not particulary interested in doing anything to us. But even that would be a welcome change.

Look at the noes for AB962, how many where not R's?
It is a place to start and find out more about them
-bb

HunterJim
10-14-2009, 2:29 PM
All you experts who find my analysis above wrong please explain why the NRA did not apply this strategy to AB 357?

Can't; I didn't think you could.

jim

bwiese
10-14-2009, 2:34 PM
NRA's strategy for "repeal" of AB962 is ludicrous: how does the minority party get a bill out of committee chaired by the opposition, through a Legislative house again dominated by the opposition, through the legislative structure in the other house, and finally signed by the same Governor who supported the original bill?

The probability of all this happening in Sacramento is vanishingly small. Get real.


Progun legislation does get thru. Look at the single-shot exemption passed in 2006. Look how we ran with the ball w/single-shot OLL AR pistols. And the Katrina bill was a major accomplishment - we have better anti-seizure laws than many other 'pro gun' states.

Sometimes it takes a couple of sessions to go thru. Hell it took several years for 962 to go thru - we killed its predecessors several times. One of our main issues has been getting Republicans to want to carry bills. Sometimes we can even get them out of committee. Other times we can mark up a bad bill with special requirements - look how we killed microstamping.

Legislation paired with court attack is a powerful pairing. Some not-that-antigun legislators sincerely do not like bad laws on the books w/court challenges and we can exploit that.

I notice you're an SCI member that recently announced a get-together in SoCal with CAFR's Kathy Lynch. Is someone driving you to bash a concerted NRA+CGF effort?

dantodd
10-14-2009, 2:36 PM
The probability of all this happening in Sacramento is vanishingly small. Get real.


It is best not to disagree or ask for clarification.

oaklander
10-14-2009, 2:39 PM
Disagreeing and asking for clarification are fine.

But if you disagree with something here, you need to make a good argument in your favor. Otherwise, it comes off as bashing.

It is best not to disagree or ask for clarification.

oaklander
10-14-2009, 2:39 PM
Good catch!

I notice you're an SCI member that recently announced a get-together in SoCal with CAFR's Kathy Lynch. Is someone driving you to bash a concerted NRA+CGF effort?

vrand
10-14-2009, 2:57 PM
Progun legislation does get thru. Look at the single-shot exemption passed in 2006. Look how we ran with the ball w/single-shot OLL AR pistols. And the Katrina bill was a major accomplishment - we have better anti-seizure laws than many other 'pro gun' states.

Sometimes it takes a couple of sessions to go thru. Hell it took several years for 962 to go thru - we killed its predecessors several times. One of our main issues has been getting Republicans to want to carry bills. Sometimes we can even get them out of committee. Other times we can mark up a bad bill with special requirements - look how we killed microstamping.

Legislation paired with court attack is a powerful pairing. Some not-that-antigun legislators sincerely do not like bad laws on the books w/court challenges and we can exploit that.

I notice you're an SCI member that recently announced a get-together in SoCal with CAFR's Kathy Lynch. Is someone driving you to bash a concerted NRA+CGF effort?

:cheers2:

Bizcuits
10-14-2009, 5:59 PM
The fact its being attacked on two fronts makes me feel good...

H Paul Payne
10-14-2009, 6:37 PM
All you experts who find my analysis above wrong please explain why the NRA did not apply this strategy to AB 357?

Can't; I didn't think you could.

jim

I can! Every bill is different. Each bill has different aspects in it that can affect how/when certain actions occur.

For example, AB357 (http://www.calnra.com/legs.shtml?year=2009&aex=ab357&ex=&displaypos=&displaystat=#ab357) is a two-year bill and is still in play. How could we possibly launch a repeal campaign on a bill that is still pending? Why would we, since it is a good bill and we are supporting it? Similarly, the same questions apply to AB357 (http://www.calnra.com/legs.shtml?year=2009&aex=ab357&ex=&displaypos=&displaystat=#ab357) regarding possible lawsuits!

Can it be that your hate for NRA is affecting your judgement?

I, for one, welcome your thoughts and opinions and visit Calguns.net when it is convenient for me to do so. But I must ask you not to try to discourage those of us who refuse to give-up on California. If you feel/think that you have a better way to protect our Second Amendment freedoms -- so be it. But many of us choose to fight-it-out until the bitter end. We won't give up on this state because its our home and losing in California is bad for the rest of the country's pro-Second Amendment efforts.

Paul

H Paul Payne
10-14-2009, 9:18 PM
NRA Members' Councils of California (http://calnra.com)
http://calnra.com/skin/mclogoclr2.gif (http://calnra.com)
CALNRA: NRA Plans Repeal of AB 962
10/13/2009 9:00 AM - PLEASE DISTRIBUTE WIDELY

Earlier this year, Assemblyman Curt Hagman (http://www.calnra.com/cgi-bin/pass.cgi?url=http://arc.asm.ca.gov/member/60/default.aspx) introduced Assembly Bill 373 related to the sales of handguns. AB373 was sponsored by the National Rifle Association in order to streamline the ability for law-abiding Californians to purchase handguns.

Now that Governor Schwarzenegger has signed AB962 (http://www.calnra.com/calerts/calert101209.shtml) into law, people are already becoming aware of the damage that it will do to California and it's citizens. Therefore, the NRA and Assemblyman Hagman have agreed to amend AB373 into legislation that would repeal AB962. The newly amended AB373 will be heard in the State Legislature in January of 2010 so we must be ready for these hearings.

For the rest of the story, please visit TODAY'S CAL-ERT (http://www.calnra.com/calerts/calert101309.shtml)! (We ask that you always click-through to CalNRA.com to aquire the latest information possible.)


THE NEXT PHASE HAS BEGUN: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=231609

More to come (later) ........................

Paul

ricochet
10-14-2009, 9:19 PM
AB 962 did not pass with much of a margin, and we now have a bunch more outraged gun owners on our side.
I DVR'ed the CBS news as I saw a commercial that they were going to talk about 962. It was pretty honest, had a sound bite from an officer saying it wouldn't impact gun violence and the tone was surprisingly "stupid law" (they even highlighted how lot's of people said they would buy out of state and saying how it would be a huge loss of tax revenue for the state).

A small step in the media realizing that politicians are termiting 2A (they mentioned that w/o the word termite) ?

The thing I liked the most is how they said that 962 is supposed to keep ammo out of the hands of criminals but the criminals always seem to find their way. As well as the LEO saying that most criminals get guns (& ammo) from residential burglaries.

dantodd
10-15-2009, 2:25 AM
Disagreeing and asking for clarification are fine.

But if you disagree with something here, you need to make a good argument in your favor. Otherwise, it comes off as bashing.

I would think that the success of the bill diametrically opposed to our goals with AB373, the failure of other bills we have introduced and Gene's own words stating that anti-gunners are a large majority (I think he quoted 2/3rds.) would qualify as a good argument.

I also agree that the chances of getting a direct repeal of AB962 passed is vanishingly small though I'd probably have avoided the term ludicrous. This wouldn't be the first windmill I have tilted at though. I believe that a 2A and Interstate commerce challenge is more likely to succeed. If we are confident that they would succeed why spend a lot of political capital on this bill? Wouldn't it be wiser to use that same political capital on other bills to increase the ground covered?

BTW: I remember that you had said you bought airtime for your firm's ads when this was discussed as an option for raising awareness. Can you share any pricing information and efficacy information? Were the ads effective enough that you firm is still using them?

lehn20
10-15-2009, 6:29 AM
Arnold is a complete moron!

loather
10-18-2009, 11:05 AM
I also agree that the chances of getting a direct repeal of AB962 passed is vanishingly small though I'd probably have avoided the term ludicrous. [..] I believe that a 2A and Interstate commerce challenge is more likely to succeed. If we are confident that they would succeed why spend a lot of political capital on this bill? Wouldn't it be wiser to use that same political capital on other bills to increase the ground covered?

Because the interstate commerce angle only defeats *that part* of the bill. We'll be able to buy ammo online again, but we'll still be fingerprinted/tracked for local sales. I don't know about you, but I want the whole damned thing gone, not just one of the more objectionable parts. The fingerprinting requirement is just as deplorable as the mail-order-sales part.

M1A Rifleman
10-19-2009, 9:10 AM
Because the interstate commerce angle only defeats *that part* of the bill. We'll be able to buy ammo online again, but we'll still be fingerprinted/tracked for local sales. I don't know about you, but I want the whole damned thing gone, not just one of the more objectionable parts. The fingerprinting requirement is just as deplorable as the mail-order-sales part.


Whats the issue with being finger printed and tracked? This happens when you buy and sell a firearm anyway. Really, I could care less about being finger printed unless this is an angle that would prohibit buying ammo online.

elenius
10-19-2009, 9:56 AM
Whats the issue with being finger printed and tracked? This happens when you buy and sell a firearm anyway. Really, I could care less about being finger printed unless this is an angle that would prohibit buying ammo online.

Even if you don't mind it, it will mean more work for stores, so fewer places will sell ammo, and it will be more expensive. Which, of course, is the whole point.

Mitch
10-19-2009, 10:08 AM
Even if you don't mind it, it will mean more work for stores, so fewer places will sell ammo, and it will be more expensive. Which, of course, is the whole point.

Still, the main issue here is the prohibition on mail order, isn't it? Remove that and you have gutted the law.

bwiese
10-19-2009, 1:48 PM
Still, the main issue here is the prohibition on mail order, isn't it? Remove that and you have gutted the law.

Yup. Require fingerprinting on a set of criteria that doesn't apply to most orders. Play the game to win.

HondaMasterTech
10-19-2009, 4:36 PM
Whats the issue with being finger printed and tracked? This happens when you buy and sell a firearm anyway. Really, I could care less about being finger printed unless this is an angle that would prohibit buying ammo online.

A criminal burgularizes a gun store. You happen to have bought ammunition there. The burgular now knows where you live and what ammunition you bought and in what quantity. You are now prey.

If the insane happens and the federal government decides to employ the military to confiscate your weapons/ammunition, they know where to look. I'm not a conspiracy theorist or a nutjob. I don't think that will happen, but it is possible.

The benefit of being able to track a criminal who purchased ammunition ( keep in mind, this bill doesn't PREVENT felons from being able to purchase the ammunition ) is outweighed by the over burden this places on consumers and stores. Your ammunition isn't going to be cheap after this bill takes effect.

TripleT
10-20-2009, 2:32 PM
Is the amended text of AB373 available yet ?

mfmayes49
10-20-2009, 3:44 PM
I don't question his support, he is just stating what our so called reps will do with this bill, and judging by the past, He maybe right.

RRangel
10-20-2009, 5:59 PM
Whats the issue with being finger printed and tracked? This happens when you buy and sell a firearm anyway. Really, I could care less about being finger printed unless this is an angle that would prohibit buying ammo online.

I would consider it an abridgment of rights and an example of the state's overbearing prior restraint. You are fine with being labeled a criminal in the waiting? Our legislators and governor have pretty much admitted how they regard gun owners. It is an insult to every free person in this state to say the least.

M1A Rifleman
10-20-2009, 6:12 PM
A criminal burgularizes a gun store. You happen to have bought ammunition there. The burgular now knows where you live and what ammunition you bought and in what quantity. You are now prey.

If the insane happens and the federal government decides to employ the military to confiscate your weapons/ammunition, they know where to look. I'm not a conspiracy theorist or a nutjob. I don't think that will happen, but it is possible.

The benefit of being able to track a criminal who purchased ammunition ( keep in mind, this bill doesn't PREVENT felons from being able to purchase the ammunition ) is outweighed by the over burden this places on consumers and stores. Your ammunition isn't going to be cheap after this bill takes effect.


I agree with potential added cost, however the rest of your theories are TFH.

M1A Rifleman
10-20-2009, 6:16 PM
I would consider it an abridgment of rights and an example of the state's overbearing prior restraint. You are fine with being labeled a criminal in the waiting? Our legislators and governor have pretty much admitted how they regard gun owners. It is an insult to every free person in this state to say the least.


Frankly, I care little what others think or how they label me, especially liberals. I've been called many things, and being an enemy of the liberal state I view as an honor.

RRangel
10-20-2009, 7:05 PM
Frankly, I care little what others think or how they label me, especially liberals. I've been called many things, and being an enemy of the liberal state I view as an honor.

Read between the lines. It will be police state tactics you'll be caring about.

M1A Rifleman
10-20-2009, 7:14 PM
Read between the lines. It will be police state tactics you'll be caring about.


:TFH: :rolleyes: