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View Full Version : RE: AB 962, is 22 LR considered handgun ammo?


smittty
10-12-2009, 6:36 PM
Can someone clarify what calibers are affected buy this bill?

Thanks,
Smitty

reidnez
10-12-2009, 6:47 PM
Your guess is as good as mine. I've read the text in its entirety a couple of times and I didn't see any mention of that. I may have overlooked it, though...anyone know for sure, without speculating?

Flogger23m
10-12-2009, 6:50 PM
I'd hope that .22LR, standing for Long Rifle, would pass.

Or, if they decide to let .22LR slide like they did for "assault weapons".

We can hope...

locosway
10-12-2009, 6:55 PM
There's no clear definition of what is or is not handgun or rifle ammo. With so many guns chambered in so many different calibers the argument is somewhat moot. Anything could be chambered in a handgun, and same as a rifle.

I think what it would come down to is what's "common" per the center fire crowd. Hopefully they leave 10mm out... :D

reidnez
10-12-2009, 6:57 PM
I'd hope that .22LR, standing for Long Rifle, would pass.

Or, if they decide to let .22LR slide like they did for "assault weapons".

We can hope...

Anyone want to start an ammunition company with me? I'll be producing ammunition for the following new chamberings which I have just invented. (Any similarity in name, exterior dimensions, SAAMI specifications, or compatibility with other chamberings is strictly coincidental, and such use is neither condoned nor recommended by the manufacturer.)

9x19mm Para-Rifles
.45 ACC (Automatic Colt Carbine)
.38 SP (Special Purpose)
10mm NFP (Not for Pistols)
.357 FCA (Take a guess)

After all, we have .510 DTC, right? What's in a name? When it comes to California firearms law, everything.

Surefire
10-12-2009, 6:59 PM
Not sure.

But think of this: Would a .308 be a handgun round if there is a single shot pistol that fires it? The bill could be twisted to say it is I think.

Turo
10-12-2009, 7:00 PM
Anyone want to start an ammunition company with me? I'll be producing ammunition for the following new chamberings which I have just invented. (Any similarity in name, exterior dimensions, SAAMI specifications, or compatibility with other chamberings is strictly coincidental, and such use is neither condoned nor recommended by the manufacturer.)

9x19mm Para-Rifles
.45 ACC (Automatic Colt Carbine)
.38 SP (Special Purpose)
10mm NFP (Not for Pistols)
.357 FCA (Take a guess)

After all, we have .510 DTC, right? What's in a name? When it comes to California firearms law, everything.

Lol YES!

cal_gunner
10-12-2009, 7:01 PM
yes, .22 is going to be affected as well..
http://www.redding.com/news/2009/oct/12/gov-signs-ammunition-sales-bill/

asheron2
10-12-2009, 7:02 PM
Anyone want to start an ammunition company with me? I'll be producing ammunition for the following new chamberings which I have just invented. (Any similarity in name, exterior dimensions, SAAMI specifications, or compatibility with other chamberings is strictly coincidental, and such use is neither condoned nor recommended by the manufacturer.)

9x19mm Para-Rifles
.45 ACC (Automatic Colt Carbine)
.38 SP (Special Purpose)
10mm NFP (Not for Pistols)
.357 FCA (Take a guess)

After all, we have .510 DTC, right? What's in a name? When it comes to California firearms law, everything.

Id chip in to start up :P

Legasat
10-12-2009, 7:04 PM
That's one of the biggest problems. THEY get to define the details later. And we all know it's much easier to ammend an existing law, than it is to pass one initially.

abalone hunter
10-12-2009, 7:04 PM
30 or so years ago when we had to sign for ammo the guy at big 5 ask if the 22's were for a rifle or a handgun, if I said rifle he didn't make me sign.

reidnez
10-12-2009, 7:05 PM
Not sure.

But think of this: Would a .308 be a handgun round if there is a single shot pistol that fires it? The bill could be twisted to say it is I think.

That's what I'm saying...'cos There is a single-shot pistol in .308. You can buy a Thompson Contender in just about any rifle caliber you'd want one in.

Does the existence of the Pfeifer Zeliska mean that .600 Nitro Express is now a handgun round?

Who the heck knows?

http://www.instructables.com/files/deriv/FWF/6GMI/FOHU3KX0/FWF6GMIFOHU3KX0.MEDIUM.jpg

GJC
10-12-2009, 7:05 PM
Anyone want to start an ammunition company with me? I'll be producing ammunition for the following new chamberings which I have just invented. (Any similarity in name, exterior dimensions, SAAMI specifications, or compatibility with other chamberings is strictly coincidental, and such use is neither condoned nor recommended by the manufacturer.)

9x19mm Para-Rifles
.45 ACC (Automatic Colt Carbine)
.38 SP (Special Purpose)
10mm NFP (Not for Pistols)
.357 FCA (Take a guess)

After all, we have .510 DTC, right? What's in a name? When it comes to California firearms law, everything.

I'd buy alot from ya :D

Every time I bought 22lr at Walmart, they asked Me if it was for a Handgun.

cjskalka
10-12-2009, 7:34 PM
Whenever I buy .22lr from walmart it prompts the cashier to ask if the purchaser is over 21

stockranger
10-12-2009, 7:42 PM
basicaly every round for rifle is chambered in t/c handgun length barrels.

Other rounds typicaly thought of as a rifle round are also chambered in handguns such as 17hmr, 17hm2 etc etc. We are screwed.

I'm so upset my new glock 10mm is now a worthless paperweight. there is not a single vendor for it in my area. On top of that i got it for bear defense and double tap is the only load made that can do the trick and its of course going to be illegal to order it.

locosway
10-12-2009, 7:43 PM
basicaly every round for rifle is chambered in t/c handgun length barrels.

Other rounds typicaly thought of as a rifle round are also chambered in handguns such as 17hmr, 17hm2 etc etc. We are screwed.

I'm so upset my new glock 10mm is now a worthless paperweight. there is not a single vendor for it in my area. On top of that i got it for bear defense and double tap is the only load made that can do the trick and its of course going to be illegal to order it.

If you're looking for "normal" loads, you can almost always find reloads at a local range that they'll sell you. If you need the hot stuff, you either need to start reloading (recommended) or you are SOL in 2011.. :)

stockranger
10-12-2009, 7:53 PM
I'm looking for the hottest loads possible. If i wanted watered down 10mm I would have purchased a 40 short and weak

250rah
10-12-2009, 7:57 PM
Whenever I buy .22lr from walmart it prompts the cashier to ask if the purchaser is over 21

last time I bought ammo at walmart I presented my military ID and the cashier asked if I had a drivers liscenes because my military id would not work. WHAT THE HELL is that about?

tdaughg
10-12-2009, 7:59 PM
Not sure.

But think of this: Would a .308 be a handgun round if there is a single shot pistol that fires it? The bill could be twisted to say it is I think.

actually a friend of mine has a 30-06 pistol..i know its insane...i cant wait to try it!! i want to say its a ssp91 but im not 100%.

locosway
10-12-2009, 8:16 PM
I'm looking for the hottest loads possible. If i wanted watered down 10mm I would have purchased a 40 short and weak

DT isn't the hottest, but I do see you're in GG. I'm near by and if you want to do an online ammo purchase I'll pitch in.

Phil3
10-12-2009, 8:55 PM
It is ironic that 22LR, if considered handgun ammo, will be the most difficult to obtain. All centerfire I can reload and buy components locally or over the Internet without fingerprinting (assuming Internet vendors will still do this). But 22LR can not be reloaded, so to avoid fingerprinting, I have no choice but to purchase out of state, either at a store, or have someone out of state mail order it, and ship to me. Thank goodness, we can afford to buy a LOT of this stuff at once on the road trip.

stockranger
10-12-2009, 9:27 PM
It is ironic that 22LR, if considered handgun ammo, will be the most difficult to obtain. All centerfire I can reload and buy components locally or over the Internet without fingerprinting (assuming Internet vendors will still do this). But 22LR can not be reloaded, so to avoid fingerprinting, I have no choice but to purchase out of state, either at a store, or have someone out of state mail order it, and ship to me. Thank goodness, we can afford to buy a LOT of this stuff at once on the road trip.

just think if you wanted to stock up on 17hmr out of state that stuff costs a fortune! I'm sure glad I went with 17hm2! I can afford to buy it 2,000 rounds at a time.

say12
10-12-2009, 9:41 PM
.30 carbine is a handgun caliber because it was chambered in the the ruger blackhawk, so the .22 will also be a hand gun caliber.

BMC
10-12-2009, 9:50 PM
This was brought up on another forum....what about the Taurus Judge in .410? Since all the hub-bub is about handgun bullet-type ammunition, this one gun could carry over shotshells into the regulated category. .410 loads are already the most expensive shotshell.

stockranger
10-12-2009, 9:53 PM
This was brought up on another forum....what about the Taurus Judge in .410? Since all the hub-bub is about handgun bullet-type ammunition, this one gun could carry over shotshells into the regulated category. .410 loads are already the most expensive shotshell.

TC also makes a .410 handgun but I believe its illegal in CA.

locosway
10-12-2009, 10:12 PM
TC also makes a .410 handgun but I believe its illegal in CA.

The bill says "handgun ammunition" not "CA Legal handgun ammunition".. ;)

Quemtimebo
10-12-2009, 10:19 PM
Oh great. Now where will I get ammo for my:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_XX2lIT1tQ&feature=related

:D

Dr Rockso
10-12-2009, 10:22 PM
This thread has a lot of speculation, but nobody is quoting the actual law.

(a)"Handgun ammunition" means ammunition principally for use in pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 12001, notwithstanding that the ammunition may also be used in some rifles.
.22 rimfire seems to be the most ambiguous case since it's a both a common rifle and pistol chambering. I have a hunch that more than 50% of .22s are rifles, but I don't know how one would go about proving that. Additionally I'm not sure if you can apply a common-sense definition of "principally" (50% plus in my mind), or if there is a separate legal definition. I doubt we'll have anything more concrete for quite a while, especially considering the CGF's plan of attack on this matter.

advocatusdiaboli
10-13-2009, 4:53 AM
That's one of the biggest problems. THEY get to define the details later. And we all know it's much easier to ammend an existing law, than it is to pass one initially.

Yes. And it is usually fleshed out in court cases; the results of which can vary widely depending upon the venue--a liberal LA or SF judge will set far different precedents than one in Simi Valley or Humbolt. And then there are the appeals all the way to the State Supreme Court or beyond taking years while a precedent based on an interpretation unfavorable to us stays in force. Poorly worded and vague laws are a too common abuse of legislative power--particularly at the state level where there are more second string players who couldn't make it nationally.

huck
10-13-2009, 8:13 AM
I have been told that .223 WOULD be included in this bill and I found one reference to it here:

http://www.ar-15.com/posts.php?forum=12&topic=326&r=1280


New Law Targets Pistol Ammo But Would Also Embrace Rifle Ammunition

AB 962 will restrict the sales of pistol ammunition. Unfortunately, the restriction will include common rifle ammo such as .22LR, .22 Magnum, and .223 Rem, because these cartridges are also used in pistols. If codified into law, commencing February 1, 2011, AB 962 would require handgun ammunition vendors to obtain a complete profile on ammo-purchasers including: residential address, phone number, Driverís License number, birth date, and signature. In addition, ammo buyers must provide a thumbprint when purchasing pistol ammunition. A violation of these provisions would be a misdemeanor.



That makes no sense at all. The law states: "Handgun ammunition" means ammunition principally for use in pistols." .223 is not principally used for pistols, so how could this be?


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Dr Rockso
10-13-2009, 8:34 AM
I have been told that .223 WOULD be included in this bill and I found one reference to it here:

http://www.ar-15.com/posts.php?forum=12&topic=326&r=1280


New Law Targets Pistol Ammo But Would Also Embrace Rifle Ammunition

AB 962 will restrict the sales of pistol ammunition. Unfortunately, the restriction will include common rifle ammo such as .22LR, .22 Magnum, and .223 Rem, because these cartridges are also used in pistols. If codified into law, commencing February 1, 2011, AB 962 would require handgun ammunition vendors to obtain a complete profile on ammo-purchasers including: residential address, phone number, Driverís License number, birth date, and signature. In addition, ammo buyers must provide a thumbprint when purchasing pistol ammunition. A violation of these provisions would be a misdemeanor.



That makes no sense at all. The law states: "Handgun ammunition" means ammunition principally for use in pistols." .223 is not principally used for pistols, so how could this be?


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I think that's just a case of the 'telephone game'. None of the legal eagles here seem to read it to include .223 or other centerfire rifle cartridges.

Harrison_Bergeron
10-13-2009, 8:48 AM
How would this issue be any different than the AK/AR series law that led to Harrot? It seems equally vague.

lbdrummer3
10-13-2009, 9:41 AM
This thread has a lot of speculation, but nobody is quoting the actual law.


.22 rimfire seems to be the most ambiguous case since it's a both a common rifle and pistol chambering. I have a hunch that more than 50% of .22s are rifles, but I don't know how one would go about proving that. Additionally I'm not sure if you can apply a common-sense definition of "principally" (50% plus in my mind), or if there is a separate legal definition. I doubt we'll have anything more concrete for quite a while, especially considering the CGF's plan of attack on this matter.

I thought I saw somewhere in the wording that for ammo that is used in both handguns and rifles, that is was up to the discretion of the seller to determine if the purchaser was buying it for the use in a rifle or handgun and either document the purchase or cash and carry. That is not the exact wording but that's how I understood it. There are so many versions to this crap bill that I don't even know if I was reading the one that actually passed...

I am concerned about the legality of providing 22 ammo for youth programs like Boy Scouts after Feb 2011. The way I understand this is that basically, no "legal" minor (what the hell is that) can have possession of ammo and then they reference sec 12101 which states that it's ok if you have a permission slip in conjunction with a planned event like a hunt, competition etc.

Anyway, if this bill actually goes into effect on 2/11, I'd like to know how our BSA troop can continue our yearly firearms safety/shooting program which entails the use of 22 rifles, black powder rifles and shotguns.

cal_gunner
10-13-2009, 3:47 PM
I am pretty sure that many stores will have a standard policy to get the thumbprint , name address , dl number , for All Ammo regardless just to protect themselves. Kind of like making you wait 11 days instead of 10 and other such nonsense...