PDA

View Full Version : We can't modify our post ban AW to preban status!!


09-12-2005, 2:26 PM
I called the DOJ firearms division and they told me that it's illegal to modify your post ban AR to preban configurations. So we can't put flash hiders on our post ban AR's. Oh and I'm a new member long time reader just thought I had to share this info so no one gets into trouble

09-12-2005, 2:34 PM
they lied to you. they also told me you can't buy any hicap mag parts to rehab your legal pre 2000 ban mags. anytime you call the doj the answer you get will be a lie. if you want the truth you need to write a letter.

09-12-2005, 2:38 PM
thanks for the clear up, damn them why did they have to lie?? I find that rather insulting as a citizen

09-12-2005, 3:12 PM
actually the guy I got transfered to was the head of the firearms department and he told me that it is illegal to modify your AW

bwiese
09-12-2005, 3:17 PM
called the DOJ firearms division and they told me that it's illegal to modify your post ban AR to preban configurations. So we can't put flash hiders on our post ban AR's. Oh and I'm a new member long time reader just thought I had to share this info so no one gets into trouble


Whoever you talked to is WRONG. This is a phone person, an 'analyst' who is a glorified desk clerk. Even a DOJ 'agent' probably knows better. Relying on legal advice in either direction from desk clerk types about matters of law is useless - it could be correct, incorrect and illegal, or (as in your case) incorrect and stopping you from doing something perfectly legal.

This DOJ phone person is confusing 'preban' & 'postban' terms, which historically referred to rifle status w/respect to the FEDERAL Sep 1994 assault weapon ban. Those built after that date could not have certain feature combinations. (This Fed. law has sunset Sept 2004 and is no longer in force.)

The phone person PROBABLY thinks you wanna build an assault weapon (as per California specs) after the CALIFORNA 1989 Roberti-Roos or 1999 SB23 ban and was confusing this state-level prohibition with the customary use of these terms w.r.t Federal law.

If you have a (legally registered CA assault weapon) AR that is in postban configuration you can indeed add all sorts of 'preban' features. Once an gun's declared/reg'd as an AW in California there is no more or less amount of 'evilness' in the gun regardless of configuration. So you can go ahead and put on a folding stock, a flash hider, etc. It was a legal assault weapon before you did this, and will continue to be afterward. There is no law in PC 12xxx that prohibits changes to assault weapons (just don't put full-auto stuff or a barrel shorter than 16" on it).

the guy I got transfered to was the head of the firearms department and he told me that it is illegal to modify your AW

Hmm, I don't think Randy Rossi (head of DOJ/Firearms) or Tim Riegert (asst head) would make those mistakes. 'Head of firearms dept phone operators' is probably what you got.

They didn't lie, they just didn't know sh*t from Shinola.


Bill Wiese
San Jose

09-12-2005, 3:17 PM
it do think they lie to us. how many times do you think each one of them have been asked those questions? a bet thousands of times. if they were held responsible for their answers we would get the truth all of the time.

bwiese
09-12-2005, 3:21 PM
Originally posted by cowboydude2:
it do think they lie to us. how many times do you think each one of them have been asked those questions? a bet thousands of times. if they were held responsible for their answers we would get the truth all of the time.

No it is just bureaucratic stupidity.

BTW, asking these phone folks for legal advice is dangerous. It's just 'general guidance'. You cannot use "the DOJ phone people told me this was legal" as a defense in court. That's like asking a phone clerk at the IRS for tax information - rely on it at your peril.

Formal, well-written letters with properly formulated question(s) to a senior person at the DOJ/Firearms Div are the only way to get a good answer.



Bill Wiese
San Jose

09-12-2005, 6:52 PM
i talked to some guy named "Auggie", i specifically told him that I had a post ban registered AR and asked him if I could put "pre-ban features on and he said something like "the Federal Ban has no effect on California whatsoever, he told me that my post ban is post ban, that the lifting of the federal ban has no effect on california whatsoever even in terms of modifying your AR. He specifically said that I could not modify my AR in anyway. that's what he told me but if he's wrong.....I'm getting a phantom hider http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

bwiese
09-12-2005, 7:59 PM
Hmmm...

I have spoken to 'Augie' on the phone before, back in 2000. He seemed knowledgalble enough at the time (SB23 registration procedural matters).

Augie clearly does not know the law. I'd expect a basic understanding of PC 12275 from him as I believe he's an agent, not an 'analyst' (clerk) but stupid people keep proving me wrong.

He is correct that Fed ban and CA ban are different things, but that's as far as it goes.

I have a several AR-type rifles that I've done preban updates to.

Again, once an AW is an AW (and is registered) there's no limit to 'evil features'.

You can tell Augie to come to my house and arrest me.


Bill Wiese
San Jose

09-12-2005, 10:18 PM
does this mean I can get a 37mm flare launcher?

50 Freak
09-12-2005, 10:46 PM
I sent the DOJ (firearms division) a letter requesting guidance on something. Never got a response. This was more than 3 months ago. What's their response time?

bg
09-12-2005, 11:32 PM
thanks for the clear up, damn them why did they have to lie?? I find that rather insulting as a citizen

Where did you ever get the idea you're a citizen
when in fact you're a gun owner dealing with
Cal's DOJ ? Not trying to be rude, but the
current DOJ has little to no respect for
the regular tax paying working stiff who just
happens to also own and enjoy firearms.

delloro
09-13-2005, 9:29 AM
DOJ has beenn great to deal with in my experience. My practice involves a lot of government agencies, and apparently you all have *no idea* how difficult they can be to deal with.

sure, the DOJ phone advice is imperfect, but they have always been courteous, polite, decent and helpful when I have called. and I can be difficult to deal with myself (believe it or not).

bwiese
09-13-2005, 10:04 AM
Yes, the senior DOJ Firearms folks have been helpful/knowledgable.

As with ANY gov't agency never rely on desk clerks for legal advice (or even procedural advice if it's anything beyond run-of-the-mill daily stuff) - IRS, FTB, EPA, OSHA, etc.


Bill Wiese
San Jose

Bill Wiese
San Jose

artherdGROUPEESUCKS
09-20-2005, 10:31 PM
Send a Certified Letter.

You've been lied to over the phone.

stillbigmac
09-21-2005, 6:35 AM
Originally posted by bg:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">thanks for the clear up, damn them why did they have to lie?? I find that rather insulting as a citizen

Where did you ever get the idea you're a citizen
when in fact you're a gun owner dealing with
Cal's DOJ ? Not trying to be rude, but the
current DOJ has little to no respect for
the regular tax paying working stiff who just
happens to also own and enjoy firearms. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My DOJ complience inspector was very nice and she was pro gun. It has been made very clear that these people do not make the rules, they are stuck inforceing them. As I understand it Iggy is actually a full on gunnut himself.

-hanko
09-21-2005, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by bg: Not trying to be rude, but the
current DOJ has little to no respect for
the regular tax paying working stiff who just
happens to also own and enjoy firearms.
My experience has been the opposite, it's the legislature and the governor that are problematic.

-hanko

bwiese
09-21-2005, 12:12 PM
My DOJ complience inspector was very nice and she was pro gun. It has been made very clear that these people do not make the rules, they are stuck inforceing them. As I understand it Iggy is actually a full on gunnut himself.

That's nice for their personal hobbies. Never forget, though, these people, like cops, are paid to put you in jail and violate your constitutional rights to be armed.

They have decided to 'sell out' and be part of 'the system' for personal gain - easy job, fat retirement.

If they were truly pro-gun, they'd resign their job and get a legit one in the private sector.


Bill Wiese
San Jose

Charliegone
09-21-2005, 12:39 PM
Ok, let me get this straight, according to CA law you can add a flash suppressor, as long you registered it as an assault weapon, on your post ban rifle? But according to federal law you can't do it?? Isn't this in conflict with each other?? Wouldn't this make a great case? http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif (like help throw out the AWB in California or keep the feds from ever making a fed awb)

Charliegone
09-21-2005, 1:59 PM
Yeah, I know that!! lol but still you couldn't modify it because it is a post ban gun right? In other words what I mean is, does the awb ban(even though dead) still affect post ban guns, which you can't modify? Its kind of like building code laws if you know what mean, right?

bwiese
09-21-2005, 2:17 PM
Charliegone...

but still you couldn't modify it because it is a post ban gun right? In other words what I mean is, does the awb ban(even though dead) still affect post ban guns, which you can't modify? Its kind of like building code laws if you know what mean, right?

No. When a law no longer exists it has no legal force. There is no substitute law in place either.

[I don't know what you're referring to about building codes, but that can involve grandfathering, etc. The whole building code is still in effect, with exemptions for certain date ranges. But they didn't pull the complete building code away for buildings of a certain date range.]

THERE IS NO LONGER ANY SUCH THING AS A PREBAN OR POSTBAN GUN. THERE IS NO MORE FEDERAL DEFINITION OF WHAT IS OR IS NOT AN ASSAULT WEAPON.

Just because your gun was in what was considered to be a postban configuration is absolutely irrelevant. Federally, you can do all sortsa things to it since Sep 13 2004 - like flash hiders, folding stocks, etc.

You CAN modify a postban gun because THERE ARE NO POSTBAN OR PREBANG GUNS ANYMORE, THEY ARE JUST RIFLES!!! (Sec 922(r) domestic compliance vs import issues aside.)

And, separately, once a gun is a (registered) AW in California, there's no maximum or minimum level of evilness in configuration (other than short barrels, etc.) If it's a reg'd AW, it can have a flash hider, folding stock, pistol grip, etc.


Bill Wiese
San Jose

whatever
09-21-2005, 7:44 PM
Originally posted by Charliegone:
Yeah, I know that!! lol but still you couldn't modify it because it is a post ban gun right? In other words what I mean is, does the awb ban(even though dead) still affect post ban guns, which you can't modify? Its kind of like building code laws if you know what mean, right?

This reply deserves another SMACK!

stillbigmac
09-21-2005, 7:46 PM
So is a 37mm flare launcher a destuctive device http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

stillbigmac
09-21-2005, 7:55 PM
Originally posted by bwiese:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Iggy is actually a full on gunnut himself.
Never forget, though, these people, like cops, are paid to put you in jail and violate your constitutional rights to be armed.

Bill Wiese
San Jose </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Don't worry I won't forget.
Thats what Iggy was there to do when he did my security complience. It's the only audit I've had with armed inspectors wearing body armor. They were in there with a micromiter checking on my bars and looking over my inventory. Funnuy how when the chief of police says your not up to state security standards on TV how many "audits" you'll get http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif It's especially funny when his detective was the last person to sign off on my security to get my dang license.

The auditer I have now seems like a nice enough guy. He is all business though.

Charliegone
09-21-2005, 9:23 PM
Ok, cool thanks, I just wanted to be sure. http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif With all these dumb laws it just gets confusing. http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif