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View Full Version : How Does Ammo Purchase Finger Printing Catch Criminals?


Phil3
10-12-2009, 3:54 PM
The governor wrote in part, for his support of AB962, the following.

"... local governments have demonstrated that requiring ammunition vendors to keep records on ammunition sales improves public safety. These records have allowed law enforcement to arrest and prosecute persons who have no business possessing firearms and ammunition: gang members, violent parolees, second and third strikers, and even people previously serving time in state prison for murder...".

So what if records are kept of ammo sales. What is law enforcement doing to make use of this information? Periodically leafing through it at the gun stores to see if any bad guys showed up buying something since the last check? Is that how Sacramento caught people?

fuegoslow
10-12-2009, 3:59 PM
AB962 is completely ineffective. :nono:

dchang0
10-12-2009, 4:06 PM
It doesn't help catch criminals. This is mostly a sales tax grab, because checking fingerprint records AFTER a crime has been committed and not before/during the criminal's ammo purchase won't stop the crime.

Instead, it modifies criminals' behavior so that they buy ammo through other sources (most criminals want to avoid having to provide their fingerprints more than law-abiding citizens). This means that there is now room for a profitable black market in ammo sales, helping the gun runners who are already dealing in black-market guns.

God Bless The Mauser
10-12-2009, 4:08 PM
This bill is about power and money, not stopping crime.

HondaMasterTech
10-12-2009, 4:09 PM
How many of those people who had ammunition confiscated were aware that they weren't supposed to buy ammunition? I would like to know that.

Shotgun Man
10-12-2009, 4:09 PM
It doesn't help catch criminals. This is mostly a sales tax grab, because checking fingerprint records AFTER a crime has been committed and not before/during the criminal's ammo purchase won't stop the crime.

Instead, it modifies criminals' behavior so that they buy ammo through other sources (most criminals want to avoid having to provide their fingerprints more than law-abiding citizens). This means that there is now room for a profitable black market in ammo sales, helping the gun runners who are already dealing in black-market guns.

You forgot to add the part of how the government gets to screw the honest individual just trying to live his life free from government intrusion-- that is what really drives government.

woodsman
10-12-2009, 4:10 PM
It will also broaden the scope for witch hunts.

bsim
10-12-2009, 4:10 PM
From http://info.sen.ca.gov/pub/09-10/bill/asm/ab_0951-1000/ab_962_cfa_20090420_114155_asm_comm.html

According to the Sacramento Police Department, from January 16,
2008 to December 31, 2008, 156 prohibited persons purchased
ammunition. One hundred and twenty four of these individuals
had prior felony convictions, thirty-one had prior misdemeanor
convictions, and six were subject to a domestic violence
restraining order. One hundred and nine persons were charged
with felonies, three were charged with misdemeanors, and ten
were federally indicted. Only seven cases were rejected, and
37 more are still being actively investigated.

Thirty-six cases have resulted in felony convictions, and 17
have resulted in misdemeanor convictions. There have been two
cases resolved in federal court, with an average sentence of
37 months.

As a result of the investigations generated by the ammunition
sale records, 48 search warrants were issued and 26 probation
and parole searches were conducted. In 70% of the searches
either firearms or ammunition were located. There were
illegal 84 firearms seized and a substantial amount of illegal
drugs, stolen property and cash.

BroncoBob
10-12-2009, 4:11 PM
only if finger prints are on the ammo, then it becomes a task of looking for a needle in a haystack.

dchang0
10-12-2009, 4:13 PM
You forgot to add the part of how the government gets to screw the honest individual just trying to live his life free from government intrusion-- that is what really drives government.

Good point! Shame on me, a Libertarian and all. How could I have left that out? :D

HondaMasterTech
10-12-2009, 4:14 PM
From http://info.sen.ca.gov/pub/09-10/bill/asm/ab_0951-1000/ab_962_cfa_20090420_114155_asm_comm.html

Wait wait wait. They found something besides ammunition? I thought there was a law against these people owning firearms. How is it that they were able to get their hands on a gun? I thought the system prevented that.

bwiese
10-12-2009, 4:18 PM
Phil, it doesn't stop anything at all.

These laws are designed to harass lawful gun owners for local politico benefit.

DeLeon has to look to controlling his own neighborhood and voter base to reduce crime.

bodger
10-12-2009, 4:18 PM
Wait wait wait. They found something besides ammunition? I thought there was a law against these people owning firearms. How is it that they were able to get their hands on a gun? I thought the system prevented that.


Well hell, if you're going to split hairs, how will these bills ever get passed?
That makes sense, you can't do that, DeLeon won't look like a hero to the antis if you do that.
Stop that. :D:D

It must be like Blazing Saddles up in Sac these days. Harruumph!:D

HondaMasterTech
10-12-2009, 4:21 PM
Well hell, if you're going to split hairs, how will these bills ever get passed?
That makes sense, you can't do that, DeLeon won't look like a hero to the antis if you do that.
Stop that. :D:D

It must be like Blazing Saddles up in Sac these days. Harruumph!

No! They told me they would keep me safe! How can they let these people have guns? I mean, if the system is so effective, they must only have gotten guns if the system ALLOWED it! DeLeon? Where are you?!! Save us!!

Phil3
10-12-2009, 4:22 PM
Phil, it doesn't stop anything at all.

These laws are designed to harass lawful gun owners for local politico benefit.

DeLeon has to look to controlling his own neighborhood and voter base to reduce crime.

Bill, not disputing your assessment, but according to the Sacramento report, people were apprehended for violations. My question is HOW. How did the police come to know these people did have ammo? Seems to me this could only happen if the police were perusing store records for evidence of some bad guy buying ammo. What am I missing here?

I know the bill does not prevent a crime from being committed.

Casey
10-12-2009, 4:23 PM
I think the idea is since Arnie and his cronies plan on early releasing a boatload of felons into our neighborhoods to save the state some dough, they are hoping that some of those convicts are also morons and will leave their name and fingerprint.

It's a brilliant scheme.

HondaMasterTech
10-12-2009, 4:26 PM
Maybe the state is hoping the criminals will get jobs and start paying taxes.

OlderThanDirt
10-12-2009, 4:33 PM
Bill, not disputing your assessment, but according to the Sacramento report, people were apprehended for violations. My question is HOW. How did the police come to know these people did have ammo? Seems to me this could only happen if the police were perusing store records for evidence of some bad guy buying ammo. What am I missing here?

I know the bill does not prevent a crime from being committed.

As I recall, the names of people that purchase handgun ammo will be checked against a "prohibited persons" list. Many of these idiots are dumb enough to actually buy ammo. I also would not be surprised if LE checks addresses to see if anyone that lives with a prohibited person purchases ammo. As a last resort, when LE retrieves shell casings at a crime scene, they can round up every individual that purchased that particular caliber and hold them until they can prove the innocence.

j_gilli
10-12-2009, 4:34 PM
What an *** hat u are arnold. This is just more of the government trying to take total control. He signed against this before and now going back on his own words. Lets not forget "HARVEY MILK DAY" on May 22nd. SUPER DUPER FANTASTIC:grouphug: Just consider CALI-FOR-NIA- terminated!

Phil3
10-12-2009, 4:42 PM
As I recall, the names of people that purchase handgun ammo will be checked against a "prohibited persons" list. Many of these idiots are dumb enough to actually buy ammo. I also would not be surprised if LE checks addresses to see if anyone that lives with a prohibited person purchases ammo. As a last resort, when LE retrieves shell casings at a crime scene, they can round up every individual that purchased that particular caliber and hold them until they can prove the innocence.

Nowhere in the bill is the store required to check a prohibited person's list, so who is doing the checking and how? Law enforcement leafing through store records? What is done in Sacramento?

boxbro
10-12-2009, 4:42 PM
Wait wait wait. They found something besides ammunition? I thought there was a law against these people owning firearms. How is it that they were able to get their hands on a gun? I thought the system prevented that.

Next thing you know they'll be forcing us to give fingerprints to buy a gun in order to prevent criminals from getting guns.

Larua
10-12-2009, 4:43 PM
Bill, not disputing your assessment, but according to the Sacramento report, people were apprehended for violations. My question is HOW. How did the police come to know these people did have ammo? Seems to me this could only happen if the police were perusing store records for evidence of some bad guy buying ammo. What am I missing here?

I know the bill does not prevent a crime from being committed.

My [non-native] understanding of the Sacramento ordinance is that vendors are required to submit electronic records of ammo transactions to SacPD, who can then cross-reference them with a list of prohibited persons. Presumably if a prohibited person is discovered to have purchased ammo, that creates probable cause for getting a warrant and further investigation.

The antis have trumpeted the Sac law as successful. I admit to being somewhat biased, but I don't really think it will scale well to the state level in the form of AB962. Records under AB962 are in the form of handwritten hard copies, meaning it will require much more PD manpower to review them. This was a problem in the RAND study: LAPD didn't even have enough manpower to review 1 year of records at all 13 civilian ammo vendors for the purposes of the study (they only looked at 10 out of 13). Now imagine the difficulty in examining paper records at vendors all over the state...

boxbro
10-12-2009, 4:49 PM
As I recall, the names of people that purchase handgun ammo will be checked against a "prohibited persons" list. Many of these idiots are dumb enough to actually buy ammo. I also would not be surprised if LE checks addresses to see if anyone that lives with a prohibited person purchases ammo. As a last resort, when LE retrieves shell casings at a crime scene, they can round up every individual that purchased that particular caliber and hold them until they can prove the innocence.

This is going to be such a clusterf**k.
It's only a matter of time before they arrest/harass/raid or even "accidentally" kill John Smith because John Smith is on the prohibited persons list.

bodger
10-12-2009, 4:52 PM
They'd have done better taxing the drug dealers and letting the Mafia enforce the payment.
Wait, didn't that already happen in Oakland and it was the cops who enforced the payment?

RRangel
10-12-2009, 4:57 PM
The governor wrote in part, for his support of AB962, the following.

"... local governments have demonstrated that requiring ammunition vendors to keep records on ammunition sales improves public safety. These records have allowed law enforcement to arrest and prosecute persons who have no business possessing firearms and ammunition: gang members, violent parolees, second and third strikers, and even people previously serving time in state prison for murder...".

So what if records are kept of ammo sales. What is law enforcement doing to make use of this information? Periodically leafing through it at the gun stores to see if any bad guys showed up buying something since the last check? Is that how Sacramento caught people?

Because AB 962 does not go after criminals. What it does is set up a defacto list of gun owners. I'm sure it will also prevent upstanding liberty oriented citizens from buying handgun ammunition. It's a great crime fighting tool if your idea of crime fighting is a police state.

truthseeker
10-12-2009, 5:23 PM
What is to stop a "gang banger" from using a fake ID (his/her picture but info from someone else) and then using super glue on their thumb print to fill in the print before buying ammo?

They will still have their ammo and the "ammo dealer" will only have a smudge print and false information.

Also, what if a "gang banger" wants to kill someone that day and buys ammo. How is this law going to stop them from having the ammo that day?

Are the running a background check BEFORE releasing the ammo to you?

These legislators are dumb as a box of rocks!

boxbro
10-12-2009, 5:30 PM
These legislators are dumb as a box of rocks!

Which is why we always know think there is an ulterior motive.
They can't possibly be that stupid, then again they are politicians.

As Mark Twain would say (and I believe it applies to most politicians):

"All Congresses and Parliaments have a kindly feeling for idiots, and a compassion for them, on account of personal experience and heredity"

KylaGWolf
10-12-2009, 5:38 PM
No! They told me they would keep me safe! How can they let these people have guns? I mean, if the system is so effective, they must only have gotten guns if the system ALLOWED it! DeLeon? Where are you?!! Save us!!

BITE THY TONGUE !!!!!!!!!!!! Yes I know your joking but still :P

KylaGWolf
10-12-2009, 5:40 PM
Next thing you know they'll be forcing us to give fingerprints to buy a gun in order to prevent criminals from getting guns.

UM they already do. When I DROSED my gun in April they had me put my fingerprint on the paperwork.

Phil3
10-12-2009, 5:58 PM
"...They can't possibly be that stupid...".

That is it in a nutshell. I just have a hard time believing the answer is "Yes, they are".

diginit
10-12-2009, 6:21 PM
Which is why we always know think there is an ulterior motive.
They can't possibly be that stupid, then again they are politicians.

As Mark Twain would say (and I believe it applies to most politicians):

"All Congresses and Parliaments have a kindly feeling for idiots, and a compassion for them, on account of personal experience and heredity"

I must agree. Are they really going to check each fingerprint against their database? This is going to take lots of state money that the state doesn't have and still yeild nothing.
Thanks to Arni and his "wanting to be popular" attitude, the state is broke and felons are going to be released back onto the streets. But this time they have more professional experience with which to commit crimes and get away with them. I feel I may be guilty if loaded concealed carry in the future.
I saw our governor on the news signing bills with both hands. Why did he wait untill the last minuite? Probably doesn't even know which hand is signing which bill now. I said to my friends when he was elected, That the state is doomed. It's funny that they now all agree with me. Heck, I could act like a governor too.
I wish Bill Wiese Or Gene would run...Or any other REAL person for that matter. The He** with these popularity and profit seekers running for office. We need a civilian in office! Someone who knows what it is really like on the streets. With common sense and no rose colored glasses. Life is not a movie.
OK, This has got to be the longest, meanest post I've ever made.... I've stated my opinion, What's yours?

HondaMasterTech
10-12-2009, 6:32 PM
UM they already do. When I DROSED my gun in April they had me put my fingerprint on the paperwork.

I have a feeling the post you replied to was meant with sarcasm, much like mine. ;)

tyrist
10-12-2009, 9:01 PM
The only thing I could image them doing would be to pull the roster of everyone who purchased ammunition and then run them to see if they are on probation, parole, or are prohibited persons. Then either get a warrant or do a parole/probation compliance search. I am sure it will enable the capture of a few criminals but overall will be a costly failure.

SteveH
10-13-2009, 2:49 PM
The governor wrote in part, for his support of AB962, Periodically leafing through it at the gun stores to see if any bad guys showed up buying something since the last check? Is that how Sacramento caught people?

Yes, its that simple.

Take a list of every parolee in the city to big-5 and cross reference the parolee list with the ammo buyer list. If you find a match go to the parolees house and toss the pad. Find the ammo. Take him to jail.

Brian_L
10-13-2009, 2:53 PM
Is it too late to call for heads on pikes?

SteveH
10-13-2009, 2:55 PM
The only thing I could image them doing would be to pull the roster of everyone who purchased ammunition and then run them to see if they are on probation, parole, or are prohibited persons. Then either get a warrant or do a parole/probation compliance search. I am sure it will enable the capture of a few criminals but overall will be a costly failure.

You have it backwards. Running everyone on the list would be unethical use of NCIC & DMV databases.

Instead you print out a list of all the parolees and probationers in a given city. All modern LE agencies track such info. Then someone like the Gang unit, Directed Enforcment Team, Special Enforment Team, Narcotics, or even a simply street cop (if he has a free couple minutes) takes the list to the gun store and compares the two. Hell most cops know all the parolees in their city anyway and would spot the prohibited names in the stores records pretty fast.

This law sucks. I wished it had never passed. But since it has i hope that at least the cops use the info in the way it was inteded and send some bangers back to prison. That way something good comes out of it. i would rather have them doing parole searches that seatbelt tickets.

SickofSoCal
10-13-2009, 2:58 PM
Even if it did help catch criminals, is that worth sacrificing the rights, liberties, freedoms, and dignity of the 99.999999% of Californian gun owners who are not?

Ron-Solo
10-13-2009, 3:04 PM
It doesn't. Period.

locosway
10-13-2009, 3:07 PM
Aren't criminals protected under the 5A from giving their prints out willingly?

yelohamr
10-13-2009, 3:27 PM
Lets not forget "HARVEY MILK DAY" on May 22nd.


Will we get free Twinkies that day?:D

berto
10-13-2009, 3:35 PM
Go down to the local dem party office and pick up the magical pixie dust. Pour magical pixie dust on a hard surface and arrange into short lines. Roll some tax dollars into a tube. Snort away. Repeat a few times. Watch criminals get caught.