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EBR Works
10-12-2009, 11:23 AM
The law absolutely does not take effect until February 2011. You have time to stock up, if you feel the need, at a leisurely pace or you can act like a panicked gazelle. Your choice. :willy_nilly::willy_nilly::willy_nilly:

Take a deep breath, we have time.

Once the law is in effect, if it is not squashed by the CGF first, you'll still be able to buy locally or you can drive out of state to purchase. You'll still be able to buy for friends since the 50 round transfer limit was removed from the bill.


Reloading components are NOT affected by the language of this bill. It has already been discussed here:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=221417

See posts #109-120 for the final clarification.

Unfortunately, out of state retailers may not understand this. We'll see.


If you have an FFL03 (C&R) license and a COE you will supposedly be exempt per language in the bill. We'll have to see how out of state retailers will understand this exemption, if at all.

FFL03 info here:

http://www.hipointfirearmsforums.com/Forum/index.php?topic=11859.0%3Bwap2

COE app here:

http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/coeapp.pdf

It's basically a background check with fingerprinting. Same process is done when you get a CCW. It costs around $100 and must be renewed yearly for around $22.

Fill out and take it to a local Live Scan location:

http://www.ag.ca.gov/fingerprints/publications/contact.htm


The fight is not over, it's only just beginning.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=230676


Make your donations to the CalGuns Foundation now so they can fight for you, no matter how small the amount!

https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_flow&SESSION=eXiLEdhwACsj-Q6Gmjzefjo9AqlcT4f2ksaB7nGG5giGcoqvVHPc6rET7me&dispatch=5885d80a13c0db1fca8cb0621aa94a5f79f0a4367 3e1ec7bc7ccc4f7f65b31ba

JUST DO IT!

lugee
10-12-2009, 11:24 AM
great post - thanks for the summary.

Gator Monroe
10-12-2009, 11:27 AM
Shooting lotsa ammo on weekends at least 4 to 8 times a month are gone (Forever ?)

ScottB
10-12-2009, 11:27 AM
I am never going to give a fingerprint or allow a record of any purchase of ammunition by me. Period. I will purchase exclusively outside of this P.O.S. state.

thempopresense
10-12-2009, 11:29 AM
Magazines, speed loaders, and bullets are listed, so technically aren't they apart of the bill? Primers, Powder, And Cases are not listed as individual components, just bullets them selves.

It's been almost a year since I have managed to find any federal 22lr value packs at walmart, and I probably won't find them now!

The law absolutely does not take effect until February 2011. You have time to stock up at a leisurely pace or act like a panicked gazelle, your choice. :willy_nilly::willy_nilly::willy_nilly:

Take a deep breath, we have time.

Reloading components are NOT affected by the language of this bill. It has already been discussed here:

spitkiss
10-12-2009, 11:30 AM
I am never going to give a fingerprint or allow a record of any purchase of ammunition by me. Period. I will purchase exclusively outside of this P.O.S. state.


+1 and reload as much as possible

EBR Works
10-12-2009, 11:31 AM
Shooting lotsa ammo on weekends at least 4 to 8 times a month are gone (Forever ?)

If you shoot that much, you need to learn to reload.

Magazines, speed loaders, and bullets are listed, so technically aren't they apart of the bill? Primers, Powder, And Cases are not listed as individual components, just bullets them selves.


Not applicable. Read the thread to which I posted a link to understand why.

Gator Monroe
10-12-2009, 11:33 AM
Since late 2006 and early 2007 I shot up 12.000+ Rounds, almost 10.000+ in WASR 22, And I'm glad did ,because not only my Eyesight went away afterwards but my ability to continue buying ammo in the same way I used to is gone now also.

Choptop
10-12-2009, 11:33 AM
You have time to stock up at a leisurely pace or act like a panicked gazelle, your choice.


Why does anyone need to stock up? Handgun ammo will still be available for sale in unlimited quantities CA.

This law did not ban the sale of ammo.

thempopresense
10-12-2009, 11:33 AM
I wonder how this will affect the MIWALL Booth..........

dchang0
10-12-2009, 11:34 AM
I am never going to give a fingerprint or allow a record of any purchase of ammunition by me. Period. I will purchase exclusively outside of this P.O.S. state.

+10000. They'll never get a dime from me. The State of California is now effectively an "enemy combatant" to us gun owners and no longer our home.

I'm going to start talking with my buddies in Texas to see about moving back to the South.

Choptop
10-12-2009, 11:34 AM
Shooting lotsa ammo on weekends at least 4 to 8 times a month are gone (Forever ?)


No True.

ammo in unlimited quantities will still be for sale in CA.


soooooo much FUD here its not even funy.

Gator Monroe
10-12-2009, 11:34 AM
If you shoot that much, you need to learn to reload.



Not applicable. Read the thread to which I posted a link to understand why.

Have 85% of my reloading needs taken care of (And I have time to get rest over commin year if My Reloading desires expand)

Choptop
10-12-2009, 11:35 AM
I wonder how this will affect the MIWALL Booth..........


Not at all, other than you will be finger printed and asked for your info with your ammo purchase.

kf6tac
10-12-2009, 11:35 AM
Since Arnie did veto SB585, thus keeping the Cow Palace gun show alive until the state decides to tear down the Cow Palace and build condos or whatever, I'm probably just going to invest in an inexpensive hand truck and become veeeeeeery good friends with the Miwall folks at every show from now on.

Gator Monroe
10-12-2009, 11:38 AM
No True.

ammo in unlimited quantities will still be for sale in CA.


soooooo much FUD here its not even funy.

I have not seen Bulk Box 22 Any where except at a Wal*mart in Bonham Texas several months ago . 4 Boxes of Remmington Green box HP's. so Your saying I can get 3-boxes at a Wal* Mart IN Anderson or Redding or Chico in say 2 or three months ??? Who you gonna fud.

dchang0
10-12-2009, 11:38 AM
No True.

ammo in unlimited quantities will still be for sale in CA.


soooooo much FUD here its not even funy.

Um, ammo isn't even available in unlimited quantities today, much less just before the bill passes.

After the bill passes, the prices might be so high that yes, California might have a surplus of ammo on the shelves.

kf6tac
10-12-2009, 11:38 AM
No True.

ammo in unlimited quantities will still be for sale in CA.


soooooo much FUD here its not even funy.

Nobody has claimed that ammo won't be on sale. But a lot of us aren't going to buy it in state anymore. We're not interested in being fingerprinted just because we want to buy some ammo.

Choptop
10-12-2009, 11:40 AM
Um, ammo isn't even available in unlimited quantities today, much less after the bill passes.

I dont have a problem buying handgun ammo. Shelves at my local gun shops are full. I dont have a problem ordering over the internet (I will after this law becomes active).

if there is a "shortage" its because of FUD.

technique
10-12-2009, 11:40 AM
Unfortunately, out of state retailers may not understand this. We'll see.



^^This^^

You will see that most out of state vendors and not going to trouble themselves with familiarization of the law....It will just be more "No sale to Ca".

Choptop
10-12-2009, 11:41 AM
Nobody has claimed that ammo won't be on sale. But a lot of us aren't going to buy it in state anymore. We're not interested in being fingerprinted just because we want to buy some ammo.

That is different than the need to stockpile because it wont be available.

There is no need to stockpile/hoard. Just like there was no need to stockpile cars before they state started registering them.

If you dont want to buy from a state that requires you to sign on the line for the purchase, then dont. Still no need to stockpile, you'll run out eventually. Its silly. Buy out of state.

bodger
10-12-2009, 11:44 AM
Nobody has claimed that ammo won't be on sale. But a lot of us aren't going to buy it in state anymore. We're not interested in being fingerprinted just because we want to buy some ammo.


Exactly. Enough is enough. The point is we won't allow our rights to be trampled and still put tax dollars into the state's coffers.

And fingerprinting with each purchase. I don't believe for a minute that info like that won't be documented to see who owns what kind of weapon and where it is.

I never, ever, forget the fact that these bills like AB962 are written by people who have the goal of eventually taking my guns away or my right to acquire guns.

And every law like this they manage to get enacted brings them one step closer to that goal.

DeLeon has to be shown that there is some blow-back on this POS.

kf6tac
10-12-2009, 11:44 AM
That is different than the need to stockpile because it wont be available.

There is no need to stockpile/hoard. Just like there was no need to stockpile cars before they state started registering them.

There is a need to stockpile, because many of us also don't have the capability to get out-of-state to make purchases on a regular basis. I don't anticipate making it out to Arizona or Nevada (or any other free state) more than once or twice a year, if that, which means that in the meantime, I'll need to accumulate enough ammo to get me through between trips.

jakemccoy
10-12-2009, 11:46 AM
I just thought of something. Keep your receipts to prove when you bought your ammo!!!

Gator Monroe
10-12-2009, 11:47 AM
Exactly. Enough is enough. The point is we won't allow our rights to be trampled and still put tax dollars into the state's coffers.

And fingerprinting with each purchase. I don't believe for a minute that info like that won't be documented to see who owns what kind of weapon and where it is.

I never, ever, forget the fact that these bills like AB962 are written by people who have the goal of eventually taking my guns away or my right to acquire guns.

And every law like this they manage to get enacted brings them one step closer to that goal.

DeLeon has to be shown that there is some blow-back on this POS.

Blow back from posters here who Call Reagan an Arch-Anti and blame the GOP in this state for every Gain made by anti's ...:confused:

gbran
10-12-2009, 11:49 AM
Dear old dad lives in Reno and I visit him 3-5 times a year. I'll likely be buying all my handgun and some rifle ammo there. 850 mile round trip, but I go anyway.

MojaveWayne
10-12-2009, 11:49 AM
I agree with Chop, Why punish the local dealers? as a business owner
I see how Internet sales sometimes hurts California economy.

I also dont get the mentality "Im done, Im leaving this state"

Congress is as just as likely to enact same or even more restrictive laws.

Ammo has not been banned, They struck out the 50 round minimum

Its the mass hysteria is what will keep the shelves empty

Dr Rockso
10-12-2009, 11:50 AM
https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_flow&SESSION=eXiLEdhwACsj-Q6Gmjzefjo9AqlcT4f2ksaB7nGG5giGcoqvVHPc6rET7me&dispatch=5885d80a13c0db1fca8cb0621aa94a5f79f0a4367 3e1ec7bc7ccc4f7f65b31ba


It's good that we have a method to conveniently donate online, but I would suggest people look for alternative ways to get money to the CGF if possible. PayPal takes a cut of the transfer, so less money gets to CGF, and eBay/PayPal are notoriously anti-gun. If you use online banking it's ridiculously easy to set up Calguns Foundation as a payee, and have your bank mail them a check (for free) any time you want.

8-Ball
10-12-2009, 11:51 AM
Not at all, other than you will be finger printed and asked for your info with your ammo purchase.

that should only add 2 hours to the already ridiculous wait...

rtlltj
10-12-2009, 11:52 AM
I can already see all the online vendors stopping all ammunition sales to california. Once again we are the joke.

Choptop
10-12-2009, 11:55 AM
There is a need to stockpile, because many of us also don't have the capability to get out-of-state to make purchases on a regular basis. I don't anticipate making it out to Arizona or Nevada (or any other free state) more than once or twice a year, if that, which means that in the meantime, I'll need to accumulate enough ammo to get me through between trips.

again, not getting fingerprinted for your ammo purchase is your choice.

You get fingerprinted for your gun purchases... whats the difference?

hawk1547
10-12-2009, 11:58 AM
Bye...Bye...Komiefornia;enough of this P.O.S liberal state.I need freedom to exercise my 2A rights.The state of Komiefornia is now effectively an enemy to us gun owners.Bunch of clowns politicians have destroyed our state.:mad:

woodsman
10-12-2009, 11:58 AM
I agree with Chop, Why punish the local dealers? as a business owner
I see how Internet sales sometimes hurts California economy.

I also dont get the mentality "Im done, Im leaving this state"

Congress is as just as likely to enact same or even more restrictive laws.

Ammo has not been banned, They struck out the 50 round minimum

Its the mass hysteria is what will keep the shelves empty

Each his own.

I give my finger print when I buy my firearm. That is enough.

I don't give a finger print when I drive, buy gas or beer.

This is a useless law that only attacks law abiding supporters of the second amendment. I don't give a finger print when I use my right of free speech.

As for leaving the state, I may not be far behind. There is no single action to cause my departure. Aside from stupid gun laws, we have nearly the worse k-12 education, some of the highest taxes and the state is broke.

Now we have a Harvey Milk day on May 22. Guess I'll take my kids shooting on that day!

lrdchivalry
10-12-2009, 12:02 PM
again, not getting fingerprinted for your ammo purchase is your choice.

You get fingerprinted for your gun purchases... whats the difference?

Ask the citizens of Sacramento who already go through that process what happens, when the innocent purchase of handgun ammunition sparks a visit by the cops, who want to ballistic test someones gun because a murder was commited with the same caliber of ammo they purchased.

MojaveWayne
10-12-2009, 12:04 PM
Each his own.

I give my finger print when I buy my firearm. That is enough.

I don't give a finger print when I drive, buy gas or beer.

This is a useless law that only attacks law abiding supporters of the second amendment. I don't give a finger print when I use my right of free speech.

As for leaving the state, I may not be far behind. There is no single action to cause my departure. Aside from stupid gun laws, we have nearly the worse k-12 education, some of the highest taxes and the state is broke.

Now we have a Harvey Milk day on May 22. Guess I'll take my kids shooting on that day!

Never said I support this, I even gave a small donation here to the cause to
fight it this morning, I just would not pick up and leave the state and punish the
local dealers by not buying ammo from them

Wayne

woodsman
10-12-2009, 12:06 PM
Never said I support this, I even gave a small donation here to the cause to
fight it this morning, I just would not pick up and leave the state.

Wayne

As I said, there are MANY reasons to leave this state.

Lyte-
10-12-2009, 12:07 PM
So question, I have Dual residency CA and TX. Am I permitted to purchase ammo online and have it sent to my home in TX and then send it from TX to CA should I see fit?

I normally donít buy my ammo online but it just so happens I have a lot sitting at my house in TX and I plan to bring a good amount of that back with me this weekend. Since I donít want to be over my weight limit on my luggage I wanted to ship it back to my self.

CSACANNONEER
10-12-2009, 12:07 PM
I am never going to give a fingerprint or allow a record of any purchase of ammunition by me. Period. I will purchase exclusively outside of this P.O.S. state.

Like posting on this forum is keeping you off the list "they" are making.

woodsman
10-12-2009, 12:08 PM
Like posting on this forum is keeping you off the list "they" are making.



LOL!

EBR Works
10-12-2009, 12:08 PM
As I said, there are MANY reasons to leave this state.

...and many reasons to stay.

dakobster81
10-12-2009, 12:09 PM
As I said, there are MANY reasons to leave this state.

+1 on that

bodger
10-12-2009, 12:11 PM
Does this mean when we go to the range and buy 200 rounds of ammo, we have to give a fingerprint?

And if we decide to stay and shoot 200 more, we have to go through the whole process again?

woodsman
10-12-2009, 12:17 PM
...and many reasons to stay.

For you perhaps. My reasons to leave currently out number the ones to stay.

It may be time to head back to the country. We'll see what the next year brings.

LiquidFlorian
10-12-2009, 12:19 PM
Ask the citizens of Sacramento who already go through that process what happens, when the innocent purchase of handgun ammunition sparks a visit by the cops, who want to ballistic test someones gun because a murder was commited with the same caliber of ammo they purchased.

I read on Radley Balko's blog about a woman prosecuted for buying too much cold medicine for a sick grand kid, so it isn't outside the realm of possibilities that this could happen. Weather or not this would stand up in court is another story, but still you don't want an over eager prosecutor to try and make some hay at the expense of you life and livelihood.

RobG
10-12-2009, 12:20 PM
you can drive out of state to purchase

I see difficulty in this if out of state dealers need ID and/or figure out you are from CA. Lots of FUD out there from uniformed dealers.

Whoo Hooo, 1400 posts. I am catching up to Randall:p

hossb7
10-12-2009, 12:25 PM
wait, the bill says that it removed the provision about the 50 rounds/month:
The Senate amendments :

1)Delete provisions that required any person that sells or
transfers more than 50 rounds of handgun ammunition in any
month to be licensed by the Department of Justice (DOJ).
but then says:
AS PASSED BY THE ASSEMBLY , this bill:

1)Provided that commencing July 1, 2010, no person shall sell or
transfer ownership of more than 50 rounds of handgun
ammunition in any month unless the person is licensed by the
Department of Justice (DOJ) as a licensed handgun ammunition
vendor, as specified.

so its still there?


and this is referencing the Sept. 4th amendment: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/09-10/bill/asm/ab_0951-1000/ab_962_cfa_20090912_004641_asm_floor.html

SPUTTER
10-12-2009, 12:27 PM
I'm sure some dealers out there will actually READ the law and continue to sell to Californians. The market here is just to big to ignore.

So whats the next step, as far as fighting this law?

EBR Works
10-12-2009, 12:27 PM
wait, the bill says that it removed the provision about the 50 rounds/month:

but then says:


so its still there?


and this is referencing the Sept. 4th amendment: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/09-10/bill/asm/ab_0951-1000/ab_962_cfa_20090912_004641_asm_floor.html



That's the old version. Note the old effective date of July 1, 2010. Someone will come along here in a minute and post a link to the final language for you.

xxdabroxx
10-12-2009, 12:27 PM
I just set up a recurring payment through wells fargo to the Calguns Foundation and so can you! Only did $12.50 a month, but that adds up to $150.00 a year! If more of us would do this, think of the power that we would be. :43:


Whoo Hooo, 1400 posts. I am catching up to Randall:p

:rofl2::rofl2::rofl2: Hahahhahahahh!

Gmountain
10-12-2009, 12:31 PM
You have to get fingerprinted to buy a gun in California?

JayDeeSacramento
10-12-2009, 12:35 PM
Yes everyone please buy your ammo out of state so I can get some. I've lived in Sacramento with the registering ammo thing for a while and it hasn't effected me one bit. I really don't go in for the doomsday scenarios everyone is talking about especially since I bought my guns legally and the government's already got my name, address, and most recent utility bill.

I am pleased that felons are getting caught buying ammo though.

Gmountain
10-12-2009, 12:35 PM
The law absolutely does not take effect until February 2011. You have time to stock up, if you feel the need, at a leisurely pace or act like a panicked gazelle. Your choice. :willy_nilly::willy_nilly::willy_nilly:

Take a deep breath, we have time.

Once the law is in effect (if it is not squashed by the CGF first!). You'll still be able to buy locally or you can drive out of state to purchase. You'll still be able to buy for friends since the 50 round transfer limit was removed from the bill.


Reloading components are NOT affected by the language of this bill. It has already been discussed here:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=221417

See posts #109-120 for the final clarification.

Unfortunately, out of state retailers may not understand this. We'll see.


If you have an FFL03 (C&R) license and a COE you will supposedly be exempt per language in the bill. We'll have to see how out of state retailers will understand this exemption, if at all.

FFL03 info here:

http://www.hipointfirearmsforums.com/Forum/index.php?topic=11859.0%3Bwap2

COE app here:

http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/coeapp.pdf


The fight is not over, only just beginning.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=230676


Make your donations to the CalGuns Foundation now so they can fight for you, no matter how small the amount!

https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_flow&SESSION=eXiLEdhwACsj-Q6Gmjzefjo9AqlcT4f2ksaB7nGG5giGcoqvVHPc6rET7me&dispatch=5885d80a13c0db1fca8cb0621aa94a5f79f0a4367 3e1ec7bc7ccc4f7f65b31ba

JUST DO IT!

No offense, but what you are posting here is garbage. You are saying, don't worry, it's not that bad, we can survive with it.

No, you can't. Californians have no rights anymore. The rest of the country (most of it anyway) does not labor under these draconian laws. They are not justifiable and certainly not acceptable.

I read these insane laws, and then I see how people try to adapt their behavior and justify it, and I realize the battle in California is lost.

I suppose it's hard to see how bad it is if you live there. You guys should each run fr office. Put someone up in every district. March on Sacramento every month. Don't give up, but don't accept this.

hossb7
10-12-2009, 12:39 PM
That's the old version. Note the old effective date of July 1, 2010. Someone will come along here in a minute and post a link to the final language for you.

why didn't you just include a link in the first post?

lrdchivalry
10-12-2009, 12:39 PM
I read on Radley Balko's blog about a woman prosecuted for buying too much cold medicine for a sick grand kid, so it isn't outside the realm of possibilities that this could happen. Weather or not this would stand up in court is another story, but still you don't want an over eager prosecutor to try and make some hay at the expense of you life and livelihood.

The reason I made the statement is because if I am not mistaken it already has happened in Sacramento. I believe the story was here on calguns but I do not have time to look for it right now. It was about the police showing up at a man's house and wanting to ballistic test his .40 because a murder had taken place using a .40 and he had purchased .40 ammo. The police were going down the list of all purchasers of .40 ammo.

I suspect we will see the same thing in other counties and cities if the law is allowed to go into affect. You are a suspect based solely on your ammo purchase.

Lyte-
10-12-2009, 12:40 PM
You have to get fingerprinted to buy a gun in California?

yes

dchang0
10-12-2009, 12:40 PM
I agree with Chop, Why punish the local dealers?

It's not about punishing the local dealers, it's about stopping ourselves from rewarding the state gov't for its misbehavior.


as a business owner
I see how Internet sales sometimes hurts California economy.


This is similar to the argument that some brick and mortar businesses had against the sales tax exemption on mail-order and Internet sales. They said, "It's not fair to us that Internet retailers don't have to pay sales tax, so let's make them pay sales tax too."

Well, why didn't the brick and mortars ask to also be exempt from sales tax, rather than ask that the Internet retailers also get hurt? Why does everyone have to get pulled down into the mud together?

Truth is, California is hurting its own economy. Over-taxation is like a wet blanket on every transaction made between a buyer and seller, so buyers and sellers respond by making fewer transactions.


I also dont get the mentality "Im done, Im leaving this state"


The best explanation I can come up with for this is based on domestic violence. I used to work as a social worker in college, and as such, I got to talk with a lot of battered women. I would see some women go from boyfriend to boyfriend, getting beaten by each and every one of them. They knew it too--they knew their behavioral pattern. The problem was, they tolerated this abuse over and over again.

The ones that broke the pattern were the ones that said, "NEVER AGAIN WILL I PUT UP WITH THIS B-S" and then went on to keep that promise to themselves. They stopped tolerating the abuse.

If we stay here in Calif., we are no better than the women who chose to remain battered. Those women "aided and abetted" the men that beat them by bringing home paychecks (equivalent to us bringing tax dollars to the State of Calif.) and bringing their bodies to bed with these abusive men (equivalent to us allowing Calif. to trample our gun rights).

matrix056
10-12-2009, 12:48 PM
I see a trip to Cabelas in Reno in my future......

LiquidFlorian
10-12-2009, 12:53 PM
The reason I made the statement is because if I am not mistaken it already has happened in Sacramento. I believe the story was here on calguns but I do not have time to look for it right now. It was about the police showing up at a man's house and wanting to ballistic test his .40 because a murder had taken place using a .40 and he had purchased .40 ammo. The police were going down the list of all purchasers of .40 ammo.

I suspect we will see the same thing in other counties and cities if the law is allowed to go into affect. You are a suspect based solely on your ammo purchase.

Yeah, that's what I was afraid of happening but if it happens already then... :confused:

I can't imagine this holding up in court, though, this sounds like a blatant 4th amendment violation.

imtheomegaman
10-12-2009, 1:07 PM
Why does anyone need to stock up? Handgun ammo will still be available for sale in unlimited quantities CA.

This law did not ban the sale of ammo.

Dude, you need to wipe the fog from your glasses. This is a registration bill more than anything else. Fingerprint, signature, address quantity, caliber will all be recorded.

Big Brother much?

EBR Works
10-12-2009, 1:09 PM
No offense, but what you are posting here is garbage. You are saying, don't worry, it's not that bad, we can survive with it.

No, you can't. Californians have no rights anymore. The rest of the country (most of it anyway) does not labor under these draconian laws. They are not justifiable and certainly not acceptable.

I read these insane laws, and then I see how people try to adapt their behavior and justify it, and I realize the battle in California is lost.

I suppose it's hard to see how bad it is if you live there. You guys should each run fr office. Put someone up in every district. March on Sacramento every month. Don't give up, but don't accept this.

Apparently, you missed the last part of my post about the fight not being over. We will not accept it and we won't give up. Marching on Sacramento would accomplish nothing except to make us all look like gun wielding whackos. Over 1 million marched on DC last month and hardly anyone noticed, unfortunately. Our attack using the legal system will resolve AB962 and we are winning on many other fronts.

monaghan
10-12-2009, 1:10 PM
I wish ammo could be sold on indian reservations without restriction.

thatrogue
10-12-2009, 1:12 PM
will this effect magazine rebuild kits?

bodger
10-12-2009, 1:13 PM
Yes everyone please buy your ammo out of state so I can get some. I've lived in Sacramento with the registering ammo thing for a while and it hasn't effected me one bit. I really don't go in for the doomsday scenarios everyone is talking about especially since I bought my guns legally and the government's already got my name, address, and most recent utility bill.

I am pleased that felons are getting caught buying ammo though.


Name one. :D:D

woodsman
10-12-2009, 1:19 PM
Name one. :D:D

Bodger, This is the new trend. Just as BHO got his Nobel Peace award on what he may do, they will claim that this law has saved lives just cause it was written.

BigBamBoo
10-12-2009, 1:19 PM
............

ArticleTheFourth
10-12-2009, 1:21 PM
Yes everyone please buy your ammo out of state so I can get some. I've lived in Sacramento with the registering ammo thing for a while and it hasn't effected me one bit. I really don't go in for the doomsday scenarios everyone is talking about especially since I bought my guns legally and the government's already got my name, address, and most recent utility bill.

I am pleased that felons are getting caught buying ammo though.

Name one. :D:D


Yes, I'd be curious to know if one has actually been caught under the Sacramento ammo restriction law. Never heard of one yet.

L4D
10-12-2009, 1:24 PM
people keep saying "why the need to stock up, ammo sales arent baned locally"

how much do you think they will charge when the local merchants are the only game in town?

JayDeeSacramento
10-12-2009, 1:26 PM
Yes, I'd be curious to know if one has actually been caught under the Sacramento ammo restriction law. Never heard of one yet.


Ramon Clark

BigDogatPlay
10-12-2009, 1:26 PM
Sacramento PD was claiming recently, IIRC, 140 something arrests of prohibited persons based on the city's law since implementation.

One of the things that hasn't really been discussed, and which I included in my letters to Arnold, is that if the Deleon bill assumes that local law enforcement is going to go the full monty like Sac PD has to, I think they are sadly mistaken. There is no headcount, outside of the largest agencies for that level of scrutiny, and there is no funding from the state to offset any costs.

This is why none of the state wide CLEO organizations stood up in support. A few well known to gun grabbing CLEOS, such as Sheriff Baca and Chief Bratton, voiced support, but that was it.

Jerkdog
10-12-2009, 1:27 PM
Yes, I'd be curious to know if one has actually been caught under the Sacramento ammo restriction law. Never heard of one yet.

Someone previously posted a copy of a powerpoint presentation from Sac City Police. I have a copy at home and will post later tonite after work, unless someone beats me to it.

EDIT: This in no way means that I support this retarded piece of legislation. I love the fact that the ammo sellers need to maintain a logbook at their premises...this information is not fed into an electronic management system and uploaded into a giant database somewhere. It's just a static snapshot of who purchased what ammo at which store. The police would have to know which store a criminal purchased ammo at and then go leaf thru the logbook until they found the date the ammo was purchased. Either that, or police would make semi-regular visits to all ammo vendors and go "fishing" to see if they can hook a bad guy. Simply retarded. Think about how many stores there are w/in 20 mins of your house and your work...the police would have to check all of the stores...how are they going to do that when they don't even have enough funding to field more than a half dozen patrol cars (see Sac County Sheriff as an example)?

MojaveWayne
10-12-2009, 1:28 PM
It's not about punishing the local dealers, it's about stopping ourselves from rewarding the state gov't for its misbehavior.



This is similar to the argument that some brick and mortar businesses had against the sales tax exemption on mail-order and Internet sales. They said, "It's not fair to us that Internet retailers don't have to pay sales tax, so let's make them pay sales tax too."

Well, why didn't the brick and mortars ask to also be exempt from sales tax, rather than ask that the Internet retailers also get hurt? Why does everyone have to get pulled down into the mud together?

Truth is, California is hurting its own economy. Over-taxation is like a wet blanket on every transaction made between a buyer and seller, so buyers and sellers respond by making fewer transactions.



The best explanation I can come up with for this is based on domestic violence. I used to work as a social worker in college, and as such, I got to talk with a lot of battered women. I would see some women go from boyfriend to boyfriend, getting beaten by each and every one of them. They knew it too--they knew their behavioral pattern. The problem was, they tolerated this abuse over and over again.

The ones that broke the pattern were the ones that said, "NEVER AGAIN WILL I PUT UP WITH THIS B-S" and then went on to keep that promise to themselves. They stopped tolerating the abuse.

If we stay here in Calif., we are no better than the women who chose to remain battered. Those women "aided and abetted" the men that beat them by bringing home paychecks (equivalent to us bringing tax dollars to the State of Calif.) and bringing their bodies to bed with these abusive men (equivalent to us allowing Calif. to trample our gun rights).


Valid points and agreed, with the exeption of the domestic violence comparison

I would bet most who have stated they are leaving the state on this
board today will most likely not follow though, those who do, may find
these very same problems follow them wherever they go .....eventually :rolleyes:

Wayne

Packy14
10-12-2009, 1:29 PM
Yup... never selling any of my ammo. Never. I wonder what they will classify as handgun ammo.. .22LR says rifle in the name, but will likely be included. How about .223...since there are AR pistols. Guess I better just buy a bunch of .308's!

Ifticar
10-12-2009, 1:31 PM
It's been almost a year since I have managed to find any federal 22lr value packs at walmart, and I probably won't find them now!

This &*#@$ law restricts the sale of HANDGUN ammo. .22LR is rifle ammo. You will still be able to order it mail order and over the Internet.

woodsman
10-12-2009, 1:32 PM
Ramon Clark

I grant you this one.

He bought .25ACP.

I feel safer already.

bodger
10-12-2009, 1:33 PM
Ramon Clark


Indeed, and here's the story: http://www.sacbee.com/static/weblogs/crime/archives/2008/08/ammunition-purc.html

It states that the arrest was a result of Sac PD and BATF efforts.

So, how does this work? We get printed, and they run a background check after we've already made the purchase?

They've had this law here in LA for a while, but I don't buy ammo in Los Angeles.

Gator Monroe
10-12-2009, 1:33 PM
Yup... never selling any of my ammo. Never. I wonder what they will classify as handgun ammo.. .22LR says rifle in the name, but will likely be included. How about .223...since there are AR pistols. Guess I better just buy a bunch of .308's!

I sold almost a thousand rounds of WWB 45ACP HP over last 8 months (At least I still have a couple of thousand rounds left):(

Brian617
10-12-2009, 1:33 PM
Ask the citizens of Sacramento who already go through that process what happens, when the innocent purchase of handgun ammunition sparks a visit by the cops, who want to ballistic test someones gun because a murder was commited with the same caliber of ammo they purchased.

Where can I find out more about this happening?

woodsman
10-12-2009, 1:34 PM
This &*#@$ law restricts the sale of HANDGUN ammo. .22LR is rifle ammo. You will still be able to order it mail order and over the Internet.

There are many rifle cartridges used in handguns.

I'll refer back to this post if and when the ban takes place.

JayDeeSacramento
10-12-2009, 1:34 PM
Where can I find out more about this happening?

Read a book of fairy tales.

bodger
10-12-2009, 1:35 PM
This &*#@$ law restricts the sale of HANDGUN ammo. .22LR is rifle ammo. You will still be able to order it mail order and over the Internet.


Has that been verified as true?
.22 LR can be used in various pistols as well.


It will be interesting to see is online vendors will sell to CA after this. Some of them would not ship to Los Angeles prior to this. And the law here is fingerprints and ID, but does not and nver did ban mail order sales or shipment.

leitung
10-12-2009, 1:38 PM
Looks like a reloading kit is in the future.. NEAR future like ASAP..

rest of the money is on it's way it CGF

The Tech-1
10-12-2009, 1:38 PM
Sold a few thousand rounds to local calgunners over the past couple of months. Hope I helped out a few just getting into the sport and those who were affected by ammo shortages. I still have tens of thousands of rounds for myself luckily. I might open up and sell off a bit more than I originally wanted to just to help you fellas out before I leave the state. Unfortunately though, I won't be looking back when I'm out of this loon-hole.

The Tech-1
10-12-2009, 1:39 PM
If I were you guys I'd just reload from here on out. Screw the state, it's legislators and liberal followers.

woodsman
10-12-2009, 1:42 PM
Has that been verified as true?
.22 LR can be used in various pistols as well.


It will be interesting to see is online vendors will sell to CA after this. Some of them would not ship to Los Angeles prior to this. And the law here is fingerprints and ID, but does not and nver did ban mail order sales or shipment.

I agree. Regardless if the risk is percieved, I doubt many will be willing to risk their business on shipping to California.

Additionally, I will be surprised if at least one overzealous legislator or DA doesn't try to group any rifle cartrige that can be shot in a handgun into this grouping.

I hope it dies.

The Tech-1
10-12-2009, 1:42 PM
Why does anyone need to stock up? Handgun ammo will still be available for sale in unlimited quantities CA.

This law did not ban the sale of ammo.

I guess you're ok with giving your fingerprint to purchase ammo. Same people that don't mind giving their fingerprint to 24hr gym's to gain access. WOW. If you don't get it... nevermind.

CaliColin
10-12-2009, 1:43 PM
Along the lines of what this law means to everyone.. what's stopping the Walmart guy from collecting every name, address, and phone no. that he collects every day, and selling it? I'm sure there are a few gang members in LA that might want this info. They will know what guns you have and where you live. They can even give you a quick call to see if you are home first. Of course, this would never happen because the information will be secure. :rolleyes:

woodsman
10-12-2009, 1:43 PM
If I were you guys I'd just reload from here on out. Screw the state, it's legislators and liberal followers.

I will reload, reload, reload, reload and still drive out of state to buy my components.

dfletcher
10-12-2009, 1:48 PM
I'm sure some dealers out there will actually READ the law and continue to sell to Californians. The market here is just to big to ignore.



I e-mailed Graf & Sons, pointing out the C & R exception - here is their response:

"Dear Mr. Fletcher,

If this bill indeed becomes law and goes into effect Feb 1 of 2011 as planned, we will have no option other than to cease ammunition sales to retail customers in California.

I haven't seen anything stating that components are covered under this bill but if they are, they also would suffer a similar fate.

Hopefully something will change between now and then.

Sincerely,
Jeff Knowles
General Manager
Graf & Sons"

Unlike Midway, who won't ship even an empty brass casing to me in SF, Graf has shipped brass and loaded ammo.

Note that they don't make a distinction between rifle and handgun ammunition, nor was there any interest regarding a C & R/COE exception.

Ifticar
10-12-2009, 1:48 PM
Either that, or police would make semi-regular visits to all ammo vendors and go "fishing" to see if they can hook a bad guy. Simply retarded. Think about how many stores there are w/in 20 mins of your house and your work...the police would have to check all of the stores...how are they going to do that when they don't even have enough funding to field more than a half dozen patrol cars (see Sac County Sheriff as an example)?

If a cop is shot then you can bet your *** that his or her fellow cops will hit every store and follow up on every potential lead - budgets be damned. If the cop was shot with .45 ACP and you are on record as having purchased .45 ACP in that area, expect cops to show up at your door wanting ballistic samples from your .45 ACP weapon(s).

mmartin
10-12-2009, 1:50 PM
I would bet most who have stated they are leaving the state on this
board today will most likely not follow though, those who do, may find
these very same problems follow them wherever they go .....eventually :rolleyes:
well for those of us who do go, CA is a useful lesson. you can bet I'll be defending against minor encroachments in MO with full knowledge that it could one day be the same issue we face here now.

for those who are saying "don't let the door hit you on the ***** on the way out", don't assume that because we go, we are unwilling to fight. we aren't. CA will not be the only battleground. we will be waking up the troops elsewhere and preparing that ground for a winning fight.
megan

Ifticar
10-12-2009, 1:52 PM
Note that they don't make a distinction between rifle and handgun ammunition, nor was there any interest regarding a C & R/COE exception.

If they look at their past sales to California and calculate their losses in revenue, they may well change their mind.

bradph
10-12-2009, 1:55 PM
If bad guys find it more difficult to obtain handgun ammunition, they will simply used sawed off rifles, shotguns, long guns. Then, California will go after rifle ammunition.

What does this law mean? It means yet another step on the stairway to destroying the second amendment has been built.

At this point, our best bet is to donate some money (power) to Calguns.

Brad

Ifticar
10-12-2009, 1:59 PM
There are many rifle cartridges used in handguns.

I'll refer back to this post if and when the ban takes place.

Handgun ammunition is defined by section 12323(a) of the California Penal Code. It states:

"Handgun ammunition" means ammunition principally for use in pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 12001, notwithstanding that the ammunition may also be used in some rifles.

mmartin
10-12-2009, 2:00 PM
One of the things that hasn't really been discussed, and which I included in my letters to Arnold, is that if the Deleon bill assumes that local law enforcement is going to go the full monty like Sac PD has to, I think they are sadly mistaken. There is no headcount, outside of the largest agencies for that level of scrutiny, and there is no funding from the state to offset any costs.

any time there are limited resources choices get made, and a deciding factor is most-bang-for-the-buck. arresting lots of bad guys is high visibility. if they think rousting the gunshops following this bill will create that visibility, it will get priority over other tasks.

megan

stix213
10-12-2009, 2:03 PM
Bye bye cheap Russian 9mm ammo.... I hope I find someone in the north bay that loves you as much as I did.... (crying inside)

BigBamBoo
10-12-2009, 2:03 PM
..............

woodsman
10-12-2009, 2:05 PM
Handgun ammunition is defined by section 12323(a) of the California Penal Code. It states:

"Handgun ammunition" means ammunition principally for use in pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 12001, notwithstanding that the ammunition may also be used in some rifles.

So if notwithstanding is understood to mean "in spite of the fact that", I read this to mean that .22LR will be included in the ban.

Kid Stanislaus
10-12-2009, 2:08 PM
Impacto wrote: "Make your donations to the CalGuns Foundation now so they can fight for you, no matter how small the amount!"

Done, and I've made the decision to make a monthly donation of a like amount.

dfletcher
10-12-2009, 2:09 PM
I notice the short term phrase "mail order ammo banned" being tossed about and I guess that's generally accurate. I presume it is still legal for me to ship ammo to myself, correct?

http://www.thepostaldepot.com/

Note they are in Reno and offer forwarding services.

If a couple of gun owners get together the mail box will cost each about $50.00 per year.

Choptop
10-12-2009, 2:10 PM
No offense, but what you are posting here is garbage.


Its not garbage... its the truth.

You can still buy all the handgun ammo you want in Kali, you just have to sign for it and give a thumb print like you do when you buy a gun.

Is the law a bad one? Sure.
Should we fight it? Yes.

but lets keep the hyperbole and FUD to a minimum and concentrate on facts.

Choptop
10-12-2009, 2:12 PM
I guess you're ok with giving your fingerprint to purchase ammo. Same people that don't mind giving their fingerprint to 24hr gym's to gain access. WOW. If you don't get it... nevermind.

I never said I was OK with it. I've said this law should be fought.

But think about it...when was the last time you bought a gun? Did you give your info and thumbprint? Hmmm....

Ifticar
10-12-2009, 2:14 PM
So if notwithstanding is understood to mean "in spite of the fact that", I read this to mean that .22LR will be included in the ban.

...In spite of the fact that [ ammunition principally for use in pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person] can be used in some rifles...

is not the same as

...In spite of the fact that [rifle ammunition] can be used in [ pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person]

Two choices. It can not mean both.

Notwithstanding that, if you choose the pessimistic interpretation then you should, by all means, demand to be fingerprinted when buying .22LR ammo.

woodsman
10-12-2009, 2:15 PM
You are correct. The fact is you won't be able to buy ammo without your I.D. And finger print.

woodsman
10-12-2009, 2:16 PM
You want to discuss the definition of "is"?

Choptop
10-12-2009, 2:17 PM
You are coorect. The fact is you won't be able to buy ammo without your I.D. And finger print.

You want to discuss the definition of "is"?

please...

Stick to the facts of the situation and not FUD and hyperbole. Neither help.

Ammo will be available for sale in CA in unlimited quantities. You will need ID and thumbprint to buy it. Mail order sales and private sales/transfers of over 50 rounds per month have been outlawed. Thats it.

This is nothing more than is required by current law for the purchase/transfer of a firearm.

Is this something we should fight? Sure.

zangetsu
10-12-2009, 2:18 PM
arnold is really skynet restricting guns to the resistance ;)

woodsman
10-12-2009, 2:18 PM
Please stopping drinking the coolaid Chop.

The Tech-1
10-12-2009, 2:18 PM
I never said I was OK with it. I've said this law should be fought.

But think about it...when was the last time you bought a gun? Did you give your info and thumbprint? Hmmm....

has there been a "i'm not buying guns anymore" movement since this became a requirement?

THINK.

Hmm when's the last time you bought gas and gave a thumbprint, hmmm when's the last time you bought potato chips and gave a thumbprint hmmm, when's the last time you bought a car and gave a thumbprint hmmm, when's the last time you bought a house and gave a thumbprint, hmmm, when's the last time you went to the doctor and gave a thumbprint hmmmm.

THINK.

It's cool, go on with your liberal ways. Allow them to control more of your life, allow them to keep more tabs on you that cool. No worries man! Live on, why so harsh! Seriously it's ok if you're ok with it.
It's my problem that I'm not ok with it. Live on, deal with it, and enjoy living like that. As I said earlier I won't be looking back. Good luck and have fun.

Choptop
10-12-2009, 2:24 PM
Hmm when's the last time you bought gas and gave a thumbprint, hmmm when's the last time you bought potato chips and gave a thumbprint hmmm, when's the last time you bought a car and gave a thumbprint hmmm, when's the last time you bought a house and gave a thumbprint, hmmm, when's the last time you went to the doctor and gave a thumbprint hmmmm.

THINK.

It's cool, go on with your liberal ways. Allow them to control more of your life, allow them to keep more tabs on you that cool. No worries man! Live on, why so harsh! Seriously it's ok if you're ok with it.
It's my problem that I'm not ok with it. Live on, deal with it, and enjoy living like that. As I said earlier I won't be looking back. Good luck and have fun.


wow... of course... now you start up with the "you must be a liberal" clap trap...

amazing...

this discussion has become completely useless. Thanks for your input.

Reference my previous posts to see my stance on this issue. I've stated I'm against it. You have made up the rest.

If you;d like to discuss it with my personally my number is 916-207-4645, but I'm betting that keyboard commando will not do so. Good day.

The Tech-1
10-12-2009, 2:27 PM
wow... of course... now you start up with the "you must be a liberal" clap trap...

amazing...

this discussion has become completely useless. Thanks for your input.

Reference my previous posts to see my stance on this issue. I've stated I'm against it. You have made up the rest.

If you;d like to discuss it with my personally my number is 916-207-4645, but I'm betting that keyboard commando will not do so. Good day.

You know what, you're not a liberal since you say so. I dont care what you are you can be what you are.
The point is you JUST DONT GET IT.

Live on, oh blinded one.

Choptop
10-12-2009, 2:30 PM
You know what, you're not a liberal since you say so. I dont care what you are you can be what you are.
The point is you JUST DONT GET IT.

Live on, oh blinded one.
nice edit, rethought the name calling huh?

give me a call and lets talk about it .

woodsman
10-12-2009, 2:30 PM
Speaking of FUD Chop, I believe the 50 limit transfer was removed.

Kestryll
10-12-2009, 2:31 PM
Knock it off the both of you or the only call you'll be getting is me calling your accounts closed.

usmcchet9296
10-12-2009, 2:33 PM
I can wait till I go out of state to get handgun ammo but I shoot 22 all the time with my son and this is gonna be BS. Im not as paranoid as some here so finger printing isnt a big deal to me though I do sympathize with you all but like many have said here its a pain to find ammo right now and I see this stupid law making it remain that way from now on. The only bright spot I see it I have 3 years till my son graduates from grade school and its my intention to move when he does so that means I will only have to deal with this BS states gun/ammo laws for 2 years and that will be enough for me.

Choptop
10-12-2009, 2:36 PM
Speaking of FUD Chop, I believe the 50 limit transfer was removed.

my mistake, i was reading the bill as introduced, not as passed.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/09-10/bill/asm/ab_0951-1000/ab_962_bill_20090921_enrolled.html

doc540
10-12-2009, 2:37 PM
What effect will this have on businesses who already sell ammo?

In other words what, if any, additional records and labor does this require of them?

And what, if any, additional liabilities does this create for them?

Finally, will any of the above or the combination of the above prompt those businesses to stop selling ammo?

woodsman
10-12-2009, 2:37 PM
Kestryl:

You threatening to close my account for my comments?

Kid Stanislaus
10-12-2009, 2:48 PM
+10000 I personally know FIVE individuals who are not supposed to own guns/ammo,etc., who have been buying ammo,hunting, and shooting for years. Out of those five two are convicted felons. The others have DV and/or restraining orders.

Do you know how EASY it is to get a restraining order against somebody in CA? Just make the claim you heard him fart in church and its a done deal!!

rolo
10-12-2009, 2:50 PM
Kestryl:

You threatening to close my account for my comments?

Don't get this thread locked by calling out Kestryll, please.

bodger
10-12-2009, 2:52 PM
Do you know how EASY it is to get a restraining order against somebody in CA? Just make the claim you heard him fart in church and its a done deal!!


It's no joke. I had one slapped on me 25 years ago for slamming my girlfriend's car door really hard. She wasn't even in the car.

That was back in the day when they didn't take your guns on a TRO though. Or at least, they didn't ask for mine.

Kid Stanislaus
10-12-2009, 2:55 PM
"This &*#@$ law restricts the sale of HANDGUN ammo. .22LR is rifle ammo. You will still be able to order it mail order and over the Internet. "

What the hell planet have you been living on for the last 50 years?!!

Neverfox
10-12-2009, 3:00 PM
I can completely understand the aversion to being fingerprinted but didn't we all have to do that to obtain our guns if we bought them here? Does that already put you in some database somewhere? If so, I'm not sure I completely understand why the cat isn't already out of the bag re: where and what you own. It doesn't seem like buying ammo for a gun they know you have would come as any real surprise to Big Brother. If you had your guns from elsewhere, it makes some sense though.

Am I missing something? Are you just afraid that bulk purchases might trigger some arbitrary flag that simply owning the gun wouldn't?

orangeusa
10-12-2009, 3:04 PM
Kestryl:

You threatening to close my account for my comments?

This is called a warning, and I would heed it.
I'm a member of quite a few gun forums, and the mods/admins need to keep things under control and this is a great site because of them.

Kid Stanislaus
10-12-2009, 3:04 PM
I guess you're ok with giving your fingerprint to purchase ammo. Same people that don't mind giving their fingerprint to 24hr gym's to gain access. WOW. If you don't get it... nevermind.

Amen to that.

Kid Stanislaus
10-12-2009, 3:08 PM
"If a cop is shot then you can bet your *** that his or her fellow cops will hit every store and follow up on every potential lead - budgets be damned. If the cop was shot with .45 ACP and you are on record as having purchased .45 ACP in that area, expect cops to show up at your door wanting ballistic samples from your .45 ACP weapon(s)."

And you can expect me to tell'm to KMA @ GTH!!
__________________

Kid Stanislaus
10-12-2009, 3:10 PM
Handgun ammunition is defined by section 12323(a) of the California Penal Code. It states:

"Handgun ammunition" means ammunition principally for use in pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 12001, notwithstanding that the ammunition may also be used in some rifles.



And just how fast do you think the liberals in the state legislature can redefing "handgun ammunition" to mean anything they like?

bodger
10-12-2009, 3:16 PM
I can completely understand the aversion to being fingerprinted but didn't we all have to do that to obtain our guns if we bought them here? Does that already put you in some database somewhere? If so, I'm not sure I completely understand why the cat isn't already out of the bag re: where and what you own. It doesn't seem like buying ammo for a gun they know you have would come as any real surprise to Big Brother. If you had your guns from elsewhere, it makes some sense though.

Am I missing something? Are you just afraid that bulk purchases might trigger some arbitrary flag that simply owning the gun wouldn't?


It's what it represents and the long term goals of these "lawmakers".
It's not just the ammo and the fingerprinting and the recordkeeping.

It's loss of freedom. It also smacks of an implication that anyone buying ammo is evil and needs to be documented.

And it is control for control's sake. Today, it's just a fingerprint, not so bad say some.
Tomorrow it's a license to own any gun and also registration of all guns.

Then it's confiscation.

The more we let them infringe on our rights with these base hits, the closer they get to winning the game. Which for them, is complete confiscation.

Look at what happened in Australia. They started out with strict ammunition laws. Now, they can't have their guns.

Shotgun Man
10-12-2009, 3:19 PM
Kestryl:

You threatening to close my account for my comments?


He's not talking about you I don't think.

He's referring to choptop and tech-1.

orangeusa
10-12-2009, 3:21 PM
Was Australia before Britain (i.e. who followed who)?.

And in Britain, I believe - even KNIVES are illegal.

Anybody wanna guess who IS ARMED!!!???? (Baiting, I know.....)

bodger
10-12-2009, 3:26 PM
Was Australia before Britain (i.e. who followed who)?.

And in Britain, I believe - even KNIVES are illegal.

Anybody wanna guess who IS ARMED!!!???? (Baiting, I know.....)


Australia went kommie on guns after the 1996 Tasmanian massacre where the crazy guy killed 32 people.

Good chronology here in Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Australia

And yeah, I think I heard something about cutlery, like kitchen knives being regulated in the UK now.

Kid Stanislaus
10-12-2009, 3:26 PM
"Im not as paranoid as some here so finger printing isnt a big deal to me..."

HO-CHEE-MAMA! Talk about "not getting it"!

Kid Stanislaus
10-12-2009, 3:29 PM
"I can completely understand the aversion to being fingerprinted but didn't we all have to do that to obtain our guns if we bought them here? Does that already put you in some database somewhere?"

OMG!! Not getting it BIG TIME!!

dchang0
10-12-2009, 3:31 PM
"I can completely understand the aversion to being fingerprinted but didn't we all have to do that to obtain our guns if we bought them here? Does that already put you in some database somewhere?"

OMG!! Not getting it BIG TIME!!

Um, that's like saying, "Well if they raped you once before, why not let them rape you again? After all, you've been penetrated already..."

usmcchet9296
10-12-2009, 3:33 PM
"Im not as paranoid as some here so finger printing isnt a big deal to me..."

HO-CHEE-MAMA! Talk about "not getting it"!

Oh i get it but like everyone here Im just trying to figure out all this BS
snotty *** comments are not needed

Sunwolf
10-12-2009, 3:35 PM
No True.

ammo in unlimited quantities will still be for sale in CA.


soooooo much FUD here its not even funy.

Do you really think Walmart is going to continue to sell ammunition with all the attendant paperwork and recordkeeping after this law goes into effect?If you believe so,you are dreaming.Went into a local gunshop this morn:they said it would not affect their sales.I agree with them,they didn`t have any ammo but 38 Super and it`s been that way for months.

Neverfox
10-12-2009, 3:37 PM
@bodger:

I get all of that but the gist of my question is how many of you who are going to refuse fingerprinting and find other ways, refused fingerprinting and found other ways to get your firearm? The bill is flat wrong but I don't understand those who are, unlike you, are not just pointing out the symbolism and political stand behind it but the actual fear of what information it records. That just seems to be too little too late if you already plopped the ink down on a handgun at an FFL unless there is a good argument for why that makes you more of a suspect than you already are just for owning the hardware (because who owns a gun and not ammo besides some collectors?). I basically know that by buying my guns in this state, I'm already marked. The bill doesn't seem to increase my chance of being marked. I'm already an "armed potential evil doer". What it does do is screw us all over with regards to our liberty and property rights. What I'm saying is get mad at it but don't assume that the fingerprint you already gave is forgotten and that you can now start some underground ammo market to stay off the radar. You're already on it if you have ever DROSed a gun. Welcome to hell.

Ifticar
10-12-2009, 3:42 PM
"This &*#@$ law restricts the sale of HANDGUN ammo. .22LR is rifle ammo. You will still be able to order it mail order and over the Internet. "

What the hell planet have you been living on for the last 50 years?!!

If you have some debate with the facts in my post, I would appreciate it if you could explicitly state what your issue is. An ad hominem attack does nothing to illuminate the issue.

Ifticar
10-12-2009, 3:43 PM
"If a cop is shot then you can bet your *** that his or her fellow cops will hit every store and follow up on every potential lead - budgets be damned. If the cop was shot with .45 ACP and you are on record as having purchased .45 ACP in that area, expect cops to show up at your door wanting ballistic samples from your .45 ACP weapon(s)."

And you can expect me to tell'm to KMA @ GTH!!
__________________

Ok, big guy. ;-)

Ifticar
10-12-2009, 3:44 PM
And just how fast do you think the liberals in the state legislature can redefing "handgun ammunition" to mean anything they like?

When they do, I am sure we will be informed. Until then ...

Neverfox
10-12-2009, 3:54 PM
If you have some debate with the facts in my post, I would appreciate it if you could explicitly state what your issue is. An ad hominem attack does nothing to illuminate the issue.

(b) "Handgun ammunition" means handgun ammunition as defined in
subdivision (a) of Section 12323

(a) "Handgun ammunition" means ammunition principally for use in
pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed
upon the person, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 12001,
notwithstanding that the ammunition may also be used in some rifles.
The relatively common availability of .22LR handguns is enough I think to make it fall under this clause. You are welcome to take it to court and be the Guinea pig, though.

Shotgun Man
10-12-2009, 4:00 PM
The relatively common availability of .22LR handguns is enough I think to make it fall under this clause. You are welcome to take it to court and be the Guinea pig, though.

Void for vagueness. How is a ammo retailer to identify whether a round is principally manufactured for handguns?

CGFs should be including this argument in their lawsuit and cite the .22 LR as an example.

Rob454
10-12-2009, 4:03 PM
We should all gather up all the steel case spent ammo casings from our local ranges and then send them all to the governors office in a USPS box.
hell load them up to 69 LB's and send them all for a low low price.


its a BS law. Ill be going to Vegas or Arizona and gettin my ammo there. Ill stock up for the next few years so i wont have to buy ammo and give this state anymore money. I'm already giving them a ton

nickvig
10-12-2009, 4:04 PM
Do you really think Walmart is going to continue to sell ammunition with all the attendant paperwork and recordkeeping after this law goes into effect?If you believe so,you are dreaming.Went into a local gunshop this morn:they said it would not affect their sales.I agree with them,they didn`t have any ammo but 38 Super and it`s been that way for months.

Ever find any ammo in a Walmart within the City of Los Angeles limits? Answer is no, because they don't want to train their employees to deal with these exact types of requirements. Same reason Walmart doesn't sell guns in CA anymore. Their employees weren't doing the paperwork correctly and they were fined.

You're totally on point, here.

radioburning
10-12-2009, 4:08 PM
@bodger:

I get all of that but the gist of my question is how many of you who are going to refuse fingerprinting and find other ways, refused fingerprinting and found other ways to get your firearm? The bill is flat wrong but I don't understand those who are, unlike you, are not just pointing out the symbolism and political stand behind it but the actual fear of what information it records. That just seems to be too little too late if you already plopped the ink down on a handgun at an FFL unless there is a good argument for why that makes you more of a suspect than you already are just for owning the hardware (because who owns a gun and not ammo besides some collectors?). I basically know that by buying my guns in this state, I'm already marked. The bill doesn't seem to increase my chance of being marked. I'm already an "armed potential evil doer". What it does do is screw us all over with regards to our liberty and property rights. What I'm saying is get mad at it but don't assume that the fingerprint you already gave is forgotten and that you can now start some underground ammo market to stay off the radar. You're already on it if you have ever DROSed a gun. Welcome to hell.

They've already stated the intent of this bill is to use ammo sales as a tool to find bad guys. Every time someone gets shot in your area with the same ammo you have, you are gonna be a suspect. If you live in a bad area how often are you gonna be handing over your gun for ballistics tests? How long will your guns be locked up while they're testing them? How long till police are doing no-knock warrants on your house "in the interest of safety"? What if you have an OLL in your safe, and the genius' doing the raid don't know about OLL's? Congratulations, you now have a $10,000 court case to prove that your rifle isn't an AW, or if you have no cash you just take it in the A and become a felon and get your house seized.

If you think there aren't going to be fiasco's that ruin law abiding citizen's life, or at least arbitrarily burden them, you're not looking far enough ahead.

And this isn't even taking into account the $100 fee to be put into the database, and the $22 yearly fee to stay in that database.

Vanguard
10-12-2009, 4:10 PM
I'll be doing all of my ammo purchasing out of state now.

thebullet
10-12-2009, 4:23 PM
Arnie the *******!!! commie *****. I cant belive he signed the bill. this sucks i guess now the real fight begans.

taloft
10-12-2009, 4:24 PM
Has anyone considered what this means for those who own unregistered handguns?

bomb_on_bus
10-12-2009, 4:28 PM
Has anyone considered what this means for those who own unregistered handguns?


ohhhhhhhh good point!

Shotgun Man
10-12-2009, 4:33 PM
Has anyone considered what this means for those who own unregistered handguns?

Wow. I had not thought of that. Most stupid judges will sign a search warrant.

bodger
10-12-2009, 4:38 PM
@bodger:

I get all of that but the gist of my question is how many of you who are going to refuse fingerprinting and find other ways, refused fingerprinting and found other ways to get your firearm? The bill is flat wrong but I don't understand those who are, unlike you, are not just pointing out the symbolism and political stand behind it but the actual fear of what information it records. That just seems to be too little too late if you already plopped the ink down on a handgun at an FFL unless there is a good argument for why that makes you more of a suspect than you already are just for owning the hardware (because who owns a gun and not ammo besides some collectors?). I basically know that by buying my guns in this state, I'm already marked. The bill doesn't seem to increase my chance of being marked. I'm already an "armed potential evil doer". What it does do is screw us all over with regards to our liberty and property rights. What I'm saying is get mad at it but don't assume that the fingerprint you already gave is forgotten and that you can now start some underground ammo market to stay off the radar. You're already on it if you have ever DROSed a gun. Welcome to hell.

They've already stated the intent of this bill is to use ammo sales as a tool to find bad guys. Every time someone gets shot in your area with the same ammo you have, you are gonna be a suspect. If you live in a bad area how often are you gonna be handing over your gun for ballistics tests? How long will your guns be locked up while they're testing them? How long till police are doing no-knock warrants on your house "in the interest of safety"? What if you have an OLL in your safe, and the genius' doing the raid don't know about OLL's? Congratulations, you now have a $10,000 court case to prove that your rifle isn't an AW, or if you have no cash you just take it in the A and become a felon and get your house seized.

If you think there aren't going to be fiasco's that ruin law abiding citizen's life, or at least arbitrarily burden them, you're not looking far enough ahead.

And this even taking into account the $100 fee to be put into the database, and the $22 yearly fee to stay in that database.


Neverfox: Radio makes the point clear. And for me it isn't just about the info they are recording and the possibility that I could be on the short list for people to question if a certain caliber gets used in a crime in my area and I'm on record as having purchased some.

It's that enough is bloody well enough. I have had enough, they don't get my fingerprint for ammo. Period. Yes, they have it for the guns I have purchased in the recent past. But they don't have it for the rest of my guns purchased many years ago. Everything I have is legal to own and was purchased legally.

That's just where I draw the line. And I suspect that may others on this board who have expressed their angst at 962 passing are not worried so much about the consequences of giving a print with an ammo purchase as they are the fact that the requirement itself is GUN CONTROL.

Sinestr
10-12-2009, 4:57 PM
They've already stated the intent of this bill is to use ammo sales as a tool to find bad guys. Every time someone gets shot in your area with the same ammo you have, you are gonna be a suspect. If you live in a bad area how often are you gonna be handing over your gun for ballistics tests? How long will your guns be locked up while they're testing them? How long till police are doing no-knock warrants on your house "in the interest of safety"? What if you have an OLL in your safe, and the genius' doing the raid don't know about OLL's? Congratulations, you now have a $10,000 court case to prove that your rifle isn't an AW, or if you have no cash you just take it in the A and become a felon and get your house seized.

If you think there aren't going to be fiasco's that ruin law abiding citizen's life, or at least arbitrarily burden them, you're not looking far enough ahead.

And this isn't even taking into account the $100 fee to be put into the database, and the $22 yearly fee to stay in that database.

I couldn't agree more. When submitting a finger print with this POS, your basically giving the police probable cause. Your essentially considered a criminal with every purchase of handgun ammo, thats bull sh**, talk about a group of people getting their civil rights violated.:43::43:

audihenry
10-12-2009, 4:58 PM
Nobody has claimed that ammo won't be on sale. But a lot of us aren't going to buy it in state anymore. We're not interested in being fingerprinted just because we want to buy some ammo.

In LA you get fingerprinted in a lot of places already, such as Turner's. It's a city law.

woodsman
10-12-2009, 5:07 PM
In LA you get fingerprinted in a lot of places already, such as Turner's. It's a city law.

That is part of the probelm. We are becoming accustom to our rights being slowly taking away in small pieces.

Almost numb to it.

Wild Squid
10-12-2009, 5:19 PM
It's good that we have a method to conveniently donate online, but I would suggest people look for alternative ways to get money to the CGF if possible. PayPal takes a cut of the transfer, so less money gets to CGF, and eBay/PayPal are notoriously anti-gun. If you use online banking it's ridiculously easy to set up Calguns Foundation as a payee, and have your bank mail them a check (for free) any time you want.

I'm kinda new here, so can I ask what is the purpose of donating money to this Calguns Foundation? Who are they and what do they do? Why would they need money from us? Please pm me as I probably won't be checking back into this thread.

Sunwolf
10-12-2009, 5:23 PM
In LA you get fingerprinted in a lot of places already, such as Turner's. It's a city law.


Who cares what LA city does?

bodger
10-12-2009, 5:24 PM
In LA you get fingerprinted in a lot of places already, such as Turner's. It's a city law.

That is part of the probelm. We are becoming accustom to our rights being slowly taking away in small pieces.

Almost numb to it.


I haven't purchased a single round of ammo in LA proper since that law took effect.

What is really bad about this is that new gunnies don't always know any different and just go with the flow. They weren't around when things were free so it doesn't seem like such an infringement. We need to educate them about this.

Shotgun Man
10-12-2009, 5:26 PM
In LA you get fingerprinted in a lot of places already, such as Turner's. It's a city law.

Where is there a Turner's in the City of LA?

bodger
10-12-2009, 5:26 PM
Who cares what LA city does?

Well, every gunnie in the state apparently should at least take notice of BS laws like the LA ammo fingerprinting law. Since Ahnold referenced it and the similar Sac law when he signed AB962 into law.

Seems Arnie thinks that there was great success so far in fighting crime with the LA law, so that's a good reason to make it statewide.

curtisfong
10-12-2009, 5:28 PM
Where is there a Turner's in the City of LA?

Probably a third of LA county turners aren't in incorporated non-LA cities.

Ding126
10-12-2009, 5:38 PM
Today hand gun amunition..next rifle ammunition. Because gangbangers and criminals use rifles as well right?

Do you see gangbangers getting shotguns and buying off the shelf SG ammo in value packs?

This state is wack..but this is my home. A lot of you sound like the people who threatend to vote for Republican since Billery wasn't nominated but the crys faded and look who the president....I wonder if Gray Davis would of let this pass?? I guess we will never know

bodger
10-12-2009, 5:41 PM
Probably a third of LA county turners aren't in incorporated non-LA cities.


Yeah, it only applies to ammo purchases within the actual city limits of Los Angeles. Another canard of a law brought to you by the LA City Council.

You don't hear much about it because there are hardly any gun shops left in the Los Angeles city limits.
In fact, I have to admit I don't know of anyplace in LA proper to buy a gun or ammo. Since LA Guns went down, I haven't done any business in LA at all.

curtisfong
10-12-2009, 5:47 PM
For example, Reseda is actually Los Angeles...

rcantu
10-12-2009, 6:25 PM
i don't mind the fingerprinting but i do mine paying for it.

Mr.CRC
10-12-2009, 6:41 PM
The reason I made the statement is because if I am not mistaken it already has happened in Sacramento. I believe the story was here on calguns but I do not have time to look for it right now. It was about the police showing up at a man's house and wanting to ballistic test his .40 because a murder had taken place using a .40 and he had purchased .40 ammo. The police were going down the list of all purchasers of .40 ammo.

I suspect we will see the same thing in other counties and cities if the law is allowed to go into affect. You are a suspect based solely on your ammo purchase.

Is there any documentation to back up this story?

What there a search warrant? If not, then there would have been nothing compelling the guy to hand over the gun, unless the police just threatened him with being shot (which is the way things will eventually wind up in this country, most likely, though we're not quite there yet).

Shotgun Man
10-12-2009, 6:51 PM
For example, Reseda is actually Los Angeles...
I didn't know that. That's gotta be the only one, right?

curtisfong
10-12-2009, 6:59 PM
I didn't know that. That's gotta be the only one, right?

No, the majority of "cities" in Los Angeles are not incorporated on their own, unlike, say, Pasadena and Beverly Hills, which are incorporated as cities independent of Los Angeles.

cortayack
10-12-2009, 7:12 PM
How about the gun wielding whackos option????











:p J/K

Choptop
10-12-2009, 7:19 PM
Dude, you need to wipe the fog from your glasses. This is a registration bill more than anything else. Fingerprint, signature, address quantity, caliber will all be recorded.

Big Brother much?


buy a gun in California? You have to do the same thing.

When was the last time ANYONE was searched because they had their info taken because they bought a gun that was the same caliber as one used in a crime?

have you stopped buying guns in CA because of the info/paperwork requirement? No? then why stop buying ammo in CA?

Are you old enough to remember the FEDERAL law that required ammo purchase info gathering? it was 1968-1982. How did that work out? Was that big brother? Was that info ever used as "registration"?

Like I said.. completely against the law that was passed and signed.... but be realistic.

Swift Justice
10-12-2009, 7:37 PM
Cigarettes kill way more people in California every year than pistol caliber ammunition does. Why aren't people who buy cigarettes fingerprinted?

Choptop
10-12-2009, 7:47 PM
They've already stated the intent of this bill is to use ammo sales as a tool to find bad guys. Every time someone gets shot in your area with the same ammo you have, you are gonna be a suspect. If you live in a bad area how often are you gonna be handing over your gun for ballistics tests? How long will your guns be locked up while they're testing them? How long till police are doing no-knock warrants on your house "in the interest of safety"? What if you have an OLL in your safe, and the genius' doing the raid don't know about OLL's? Congratulations, you now have a $10,000 court case to prove that your rifle isn't an AW, or if you have no cash you just take it in the A and become a felon and get your house seized.

again... are you old enough to remember the FEDERAL law requiring ammo purchase gathering? 1968-1982. If you can site a single incidence of the far flung FUD in your post resulting from that period I will grant you some credence. If not... its just FUD.

again, I'm against the bill that was signed into law... but lets stick to reality and not flights of fancy.

gdun
10-12-2009, 8:06 PM
as soon as i learned this passed i cried a little
then donated to CGF
DO THE SAME

SkatinJJ
10-12-2009, 8:08 PM
I'll be sending my money in to the foundation to help fight this and other onerous laws.

Semper FI!!!

JJ

Triple R Munitions
10-12-2009, 8:47 PM
will this also prohibit FFL's to obtain Mail order ammunition and componets???
R

Santa Cruz Armory
10-12-2009, 8:48 PM
I have my FFL03 and just finished my COE app. It will be sent in on Friday. "F" the Assenator and his stupid law. Him and the Libs can kiss my ***!

Jerkdog
10-12-2009, 9:10 PM
Someone previously posted a copy of a powerpoint presentation from Sac City Police. I have a copy at home and will post later tonite after work, unless someone beats me to it.

Didn't see this posted - so here you guys go. This is a presentation from Sac PD regarding the "success" of their ammunition sales record program. One important difference (that seems lost on the politicians) is that the Sac City program information is apparently entered into an electronic database of some sort - this probably assists them in filtering thru the raw data. As far as I can tell, AB962 only requires that the ammo vendors keep a copy at their location...so I'm assuming a paper log book of some sort. What a pain it would be to leaf thru dozens of log books at the dozens and dozens of ammunition vendors! Think of how many vendors are within 20 mins of your residence...now think about how many are within 20 mins of your work/office...holy smokes, I can count to at least 15 without even really thinking about it. What a waste of resources.

Please keep in mind that I'm not the source of this info, I just saw it posted in another thread and thought it'd be handy to keep a copy. Enjoy.

stockranger
10-12-2009, 9:29 PM
luckily I get my 10mm glock for xmas this year. That gives me 13 months to stock up on georgia arms and double tap. I think 2,500 rounds of double tap and 5,000 rounds of georgia arms will hold me over till I buy a house and start reloading. now I just have to win the lotery to afford it all :D thank god I should be out of the state by the time this law goes into effect. Oregon is the promised land of long sensible hunting seasons, public land, and relaxed firearm laws.

In vegas they have basspro connected to the casino. I will start driving there and buying them out. perfect you can load up a sack of ammo walk into the casino sit down at a slot machine and start drinking booze.....aweeee sweet freedom lol

saiga101
10-12-2009, 9:46 PM
Good one CA...Nevada btw I need ammo!!!

flyboyinca
10-12-2009, 9:55 PM
Sent CGF $100.00 to help give this bill the burial it deserves. Please do the same.

Semper Vigilans!

gravedigger
10-12-2009, 10:04 PM
You get fingerprinted for your gun purchases... whats the difference?

I don't know you, and I know nothing about you, but from your posts, it seems that you are not aware of the potential for the abuse of authority, and you do not understand the concept of the "Slippery slope of Liberalism."

So you see nothing wrong with fingerprints. Okay, lets just let our imaginations go wild for a second, shall we???

(Fade to black ... open scene: Sometime in the future)

You are at home watching the Obama channel, since it is the only thing that you can tune in on your gu'mint certified video indoctrinator device, when suddenly your front door flies open and several Obama Troopers storm into your domicile.

"Stand up Mr. ChopTop. you are under arrest."

"What for? I haven't done anything wrong!"

"You will be told the charges after you are locked up in the detainment facility, pending a decision on exactly when you will be prosecuted for this crime. You should expect a decision within six months."

"Can you at least give me a hint?"

"A shooting occurred just around the corner from your home earlier this evening. The two bullet casings found at the scene match the bullets you purchased last week. According to our records, you are the ONLY person in this sector who owns this particular bullet, so until another suspect is identified, you will be charged with the crime. Due to a shortage of funds, it is unlikely that the government will spend the resources to look for another suspect, when we already have one that matches the facts of this case."

"Wait a minute! Were my fingerprints on the casings?!?"

"Unfortunately, no. The two bullets were either loaded using latex gloves, or the casings were wiped clean after the shooting. Either way, this only proves that they are your casings, since, if you had not committed a crime, you wouldn't have loaded bullets into your gun while defeating any fingerprint that would naturally have been left on the casing. Your effort to conceal ownership of those casings by not leaving your fingerprints on them only proves they are yours and this fact will be held against you in the Obama High Court of Socialist Reparations."

(A trooper emerges from your sleeping quarters after ordering your safe opened by ObamaStar)

"Sir. We found these bullets in his safe. There are two rounds missing from the box of 6, fully 1/3 of his legal limit. The ultraviolet scan reveals that these bullets found in his safe do not bear his fingerprints, just like the ones found at the crime scene. They're a perfect match. I think we have all of the evidence we need."

"I shot two rounds yesterday, out in the desert!"

"Did you bring the empty casings back with you?"

"No! We were on the edge of a bluff! They fell down into the canyon!"

"Without the spent casings from this box, we can only assume that the two casings at the crime scene came from this box. Now, if your fingerprints were on the four remaining bullets, you might have a defense, but as it stands, clearly, these four bullets without fingerprints exactly match the two casings without fingerprints found at the crime scene."

"This is ridiculous! I was home all evening! I've been watching Gore-TV!"

"Can you prove this Mr. ChopTop?"

"Well, um ... the show was about global warming ... and there were some polar bears ... and a guy from Berkeley talking about how conservatives want old people to curl up and die! ... and ..."

"You'll have to be more specific Mr. ChopTop. That is the plot of every Gore-TV broadcast."

"For the record! I did NOT shoot ANYONE TONIGHT!"

"Trooper Acorn-36, note that criminal's statement excluded all previous nights. Have headquarters search for all other shootings involving these fingerprint-free rounds and add them to his charges. Note that his confession was not taken under duress... Lets go Mr. ChopTop ..."
-----------------------------------------------

Consider also, that if you shoot at a range, and you don't pick up EVERY casing that bears your fingerprints, and ONLY YOUR casings, you run the risk of someone else picking up a casing bearing your fingerprints and dropping it at a crime scene, leaving YOU to answer a lot of questions about how casings with YOUR fingerprints on them wound up on the ground near a dead guy!

... whats the difference?

Need I say more?

bombadillo
10-12-2009, 10:11 PM
So correct me if i'm wrong but this bill makes it illegal for a person to purchase more than 50 rounds per month for any handgun ammo right? I am arguing with a LEO buddy of mine and he's saying that its only going to affect vendors meaning you have to have a license to "transfer" or sell more than 50 a month. My understanding of this is that any ordinary joe schmo cannot purchase more than 50 monthly and if so, where specifically in the bill can I point him to. I read it but couldn't necessarily cite what I was looking for.


(I put this in another thread so don't get angry at me for that, but i'm wanting an answer asap for him before I go to bed.)

gravedigger
10-12-2009, 10:27 PM
If bad guys find it more difficult to obtain handgun ammunition, they will simply used sawed off rifles, shotguns, long guns. Then, California will go after rifle ammunition.

What does this law mean? It means yet another step on the stairway to destroying the second amendment has been built.

At this point, our best bet is to donate some money (power) to Calguns.

Brad

Yeah, another GOOD POINT!

So there they are, in Wally World, the old man with the colostomy bag, the fat lady in the wheelchair and the pimple-faced teenager. A gang walks in, smashes the case holding the ammo from access by customers, loads up a shopping cart and blasts through the door with a s**tload of ammo! What the HECK are the Wal-Mart employees going to do about it? Get into a fight with gangbangers?

While they're at it, they'll grab the LIST giving them the names and addresses of all of the people in the neighborhood who have purchased ammo, and the rest doesn't take a Phi Beta Kappa to figure out.

Tell me that these stores are going to invest in a REAL safe to store the ammo, and keep the "book" in the safe where that info can't fall into the wrong hands?

Okay, so I show up. I'm wearing a baseball cap and I buy ammo. I lean over to sign the book, and while I'm at it, the tiny CMOS camera in my cap is photographing the pages! Can't be done? LOL! Don't bet your freedom on it!

woodsman
10-12-2009, 10:30 PM
The 50 limit transfer was removed. You ( the individual ) can buy as much as you want with I.D. and finger print. Assuming it doesn't die a painful death before it is active.

ke6guj
10-12-2009, 10:40 PM
So correct me if i'm wrong but this bill makes it illegal for a person to purchase more than 50 rounds per month for any handgun ammo right? I am arguing with a LEO buddy of mine and he's saying that its only going to affect vendors meaning you have to have a license to "transfer" or sell more than 50 a month. My understanding of this is that any ordinary joe schmo cannot purchase more than 50 monthly and if so, where specifically in the bill can I point him to. I read it but couldn't necessarily cite what I was looking for.


(I put this in another thread so don't get angry at me for that, but i'm wanting an answer asap for him before I go to bed.)repeated from the other thread,

Here's AB962 as it was signed, http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/09-10/bill/asm/ab_0951-1000/ab_962_bill_20090921_enrolled.html . That 50-round number was in a previous version of the bill which was amended to exclude that.

gravedigger
10-12-2009, 10:41 PM
"I can completely understand the aversion to being fingerprinted but didn't we all have to do that to obtain our guns if we bought them here? Does that already put you in some database somewhere?"

The difference is that unless your GUN is left at a crime scene, the cops will not be knocking on your door. Now that this law is coming down the pike, if you go out to the desert and shoot, or to an indoor range and shoot (doesn't YOUR brass get mixed up with everyone else's at a range?) and you don't pick up EVERY DAMNED CASING that bears your fingerprints, you run the risk of someone else picking up that casing on the end of a pencil, and dropping it at a crime scene, thereby linking YOU to the shooting. Either accidentally, or purposely, your life could be turned upside down just because a .22LR casing with your thumb print on it ended up next to a dead cop. Gonna rely on the ballistics? SORRY! The bullet went through him and shattered into a million pieces when it hit that marble wall. All the prosecution has ... is a dead cop ... and your fingerprint!

To experience insomnia, check THIS out!

http://www.physorg.com/news166427660.html

"Goddard explains, “Once a finger has touched the metal surface, a residue remains behind, this starts to react with the metal and an image of the fingerprint can be developed by use of elevated temperature and humidity, with the resultant image becoming a permanent feature on the surface of the metal.”

bballwizard05
10-12-2009, 10:50 PM
How could a governor that made so many shooting movies sign off on this. Looks like im gonna be working my tail off this summer to HOARD ammo! And vegas gun shop trip here I come! screw kali your not getting my tax money now

dot429
10-12-2009, 10:59 PM
I'm so glad I have my C&R and CoE.

With that said, however, AHHHHNOLD is an A-HOLE of the lowest order!!!!!!

When is enough going to be enough?!

I can't wait to move to Texas or some other free state!

:mad::mad::mad:

Twinkies
10-12-2009, 11:02 PM
The difference is that unless your GUN is left at a crime scene, the cops will not be knocking on your door. Now that this law is coming down the pike, if you go out to the desert and shoot, or to an indoor range and shoot (doesn't YOUR brass get mixed up with everyone else's at a range?) and you don't pick up EVERY DAMNED CASING that bears your fingerprints, you run the risk of someone else picking up that casing on the end of a pencil, and dropping it at a crime scene, thereby linking YOU to the shooting. Either accidentally, or purposely, your life could be turned upside down just because a .22LR casing with your thumb print on it ended up next to a dead cop. Gonna rely on the ballistics? SORRY! The bullet went through him and shattered into a million pieses when it hit that marble wall. All the prosecution has ... is your fingerprint!


Good posts, Gravedigger.. add me to the list of "paranoid" gun owners that will NEVER buy ammo in CA with a fingerprint. People think this kind of stuff cant happen to them until it does...
Good luck CGF! I will continue to donate what little I can...

Im anxious to see what will be the final interpretation or list of defined "handgun ammunition" under this bill.

LiquidFlorian
10-12-2009, 11:53 PM
Good posts, Gravedigger.. add me to the list of "paranoid" gun owners that will NEVER buy ammo in CA with a fingerprint. People think this kind of stuff cant happen to them until it does...
Good luck CGF! I will continue to donate what little I can...

Im anxious to see what will be the final interpretation or list of defined "handgun ammunition" under this bill.

Exactly I read about prosecutors either going out of their way to manufacture evidence or no due diligence at all. All with the specter of qualified immunity protecting them. If its easier to nail John Q Calgunner because he bought .380 auto at the big five then they will go after him/her...

jakemccoy
10-13-2009, 1:45 AM
This thread is giving me a headache. I love shooting my handguns. But crap, man, it seems like won't be worth it if this bill makes it to law.

kcbrown
10-13-2009, 2:52 AM
The difference is that unless your GUN is left at a crime scene, the cops will not be knocking on your door. Now that this law is coming down the pike, if you go out to the desert and shoot, or to an indoor range and shoot (doesn't YOUR brass get mixed up with everyone else's at a range?) and you don't pick up EVERY DAMNED CASING that bears your fingerprints, you run the risk of someone else picking up that casing on the end of a pencil, and dropping it at a crime scene, thereby linking YOU to the shooting. Either accidentally, or purposely, your life could be turned upside down just because a .22LR casing with your thumb print on it ended up next to a dead cop. Gonna rely on the ballistics? SORRY! The bullet went through him and shattered into a million pieces when it hit that marble wall. All the prosecution has ... is a dead cop ... and your fingerprint!
Of course, this is true of anyone who purchased a firearm in California, too, no? The crux of the above argument is the fingerprint on the casing. Right now, if they find a casing with your fingerprint on it at the scene, they can go through the firearm fingerprints and, if they get a match, they'll come knocking at your door, right?

I fail to see how AB 962 changes this in the slightest, although the concern you raise above is a big one for people who have no firearms that were purchased here any time in the recent past.

I think it's ripe for abuse nonetheless, and am very much looking forward to seeing it shot down in flames in court, but don't kid yourself: the machinery to screw us over was put in place long before this bill was written.

Ed_in_Sac
10-13-2009, 5:12 AM
kc,

because now there is a record of who purchases what ammo and how much. Makes it easy for any municipality to now send in their "people" to gun stores to see who is buying large quantities of ammo. Then send the fire dept to that persons home to make sure such a large quantity of ammo is stored in a manner which does not endanger public safety. Then when they find someone with more than a few hundred rounds of ammo in a closet, they make a big deal about how dangerous this is to neighbors because of potential theft or fire hazard and pass an ordinance limiting the amount of ammo which can be stored in a residence, probably a small amount. So if you are an avid sport shooter, you will probably have to deal with city hall and the local politicians or abandon your sport.

johnny_22
10-13-2009, 7:40 AM
I'll be sending my money in to the foundation to help fight this and other onerous laws.

Semper FI!!!

JJ


$100 via paypal

DocSkinner
10-13-2009, 9:13 AM
Have to do it:

Good thing we voted Republican for governor, isn't it, all you that constantly harp on just voting republican?

1) Remember this come Novembers (as in all future Novembers): VOTE CANDIDATES, not parties.

2) get involved and help get pro 2A candidates in EVERY party.

lrdchivalry
10-13-2009, 10:10 AM
Is there any documentation to back up this story?

What there a search warrant? If not, then there would have been nothing compelling the guy to hand over the gun, unless the police just threatened him with being shot (which is the way things will eventually wind up in this country, most likely, though we're not quite there yet).

I have trying to search here on calgun for the thread with the link to the Sacramento City Council meeting in reference to what I posted.

Sure without a warrant the guy would not have to hand over his gun, however, the cops showing up at his door because he bought ammo of the same caliber that was used in a homicide and without additional fact to show he was involved is just wrong IMO.

klmmicro
10-13-2009, 10:35 AM
My concern is that this whole thing is part of a "chip away" strategy. Yes, the provision limiting quantity was removed. How long will it take for bills to be proposed that cover just that...easy to get small things passed, especially when they concern limiting "the right to bear arms".

My dad just returned from a month long trip into Montana, Idaho and like states. Stopped into small gun shops where they were evident and every shop manager/owner said they were watching AB962 closely. They are already familiar with it and are trying to figure out what it will REALLY mean to them. California is responsible for a lot of stress (albeit profitable stress) this past 7 years or so. Lowers, ammo scares, rifle and magazine bans...it drives Californians to seek alternatives to naive and inane laws. It is about to happen again.

I for one will never submit to being fingerprinted, put on yet another DOJ list and treated like a criminal with no cause. It is insulting and so they lose any taxes they may have collected on ammunition sales to me. I detect that I am not alone in this sentiment.

I will most likely leave this state for better opportunities, both in regards to the 2d A and work. What is going to be left here once these politicians are finished driving out all the normal folks?

</rant off>

mmartin
10-13-2009, 10:35 AM
How could a governor that made so many shooting movies sign off on this.
you don't think they were shooting REAL bullets do you? those were pretend bullets, just like our pretend second amendment rights...:rolleyes:

And vegas gun shop trip here I come! screw kali your not getting my tax money now

second the emotion but it leaves me with a quandry... kali doesn't get my sales tax, but the california gun dealers/ammo sellers don't get my dollars either. I'd like to support them, they're not at fault in this, and they will be the ones being punished.
not sure the general fund is going to miss my 9.75% as much as the ammo dealer will miss my dollar.
megan
ETA: but there's that whole fingerprinting thing... that seals the deal for me.
megan

stockranger
10-13-2009, 10:43 AM
all that are going to be left are tree hugging hippies. Every tree standing is another place I couldn't build a starbucks, cut em all down and hope they fall on a hippie. I need something to build, farmers need water, loggers and truckers need to cut down those pesky trees to feed their family. The hippies don't give a crap about anyone but themselves, how is that socialism? California blows, i'm sick of smog, traffic, the lead ban, and now this. california should just be their own country and all of us normal folks should leave. Lets see how the lazy pot heads get along without us hard workers to keep it going.

curtisfong
10-13-2009, 10:46 AM
you don't think they were shooting REAL bullets do you? those were pretend bullets, just like our pretend second amendment rights...:rolleyes:

Don't joke. They get real guns too. Hollywood gets as many exemptions as LE, and often more.

Henry Shooter
10-13-2009, 10:52 AM
Thanks Impactco for the clarification. Good to know that there are people out there that understand the mumbo jumbo.

bodger
10-13-2009, 11:12 AM
all that are going to be left are tree hugging hippies. Every tree standing is another place I couldn't build a starbucks, cut em all down and hope they fall on a hippie. I need something to build, farmers need water, loggers and truckers need to cut down those pesky trees to feed their family. The hippies don't give a crap about anyone but themselves, how is that socialism? California blows, i'm sick of smog, traffic, the lead ban, and now this. california should just be their own country and all of us normal folks should leave. Lets see how the lazy pot heads get along without us hard workers to keep it going.


I agree.
How about a mass exodus of LEOs as well. Many of them are Pro 2A regardless of the bull**** laws they have to enforce.
And a further deteriorating economy might send a lot of illegals back where they came from.

Did you see how many were going back home as soon as the economy took a bad turn?

ANARCANGEL
10-13-2009, 11:16 AM
I am never going to give a fingerprint or allow a record of any purchase of ammunition by me. Period. I will purchase exclusively outside of this P.O.S. state.

+1:chris:

MikeP92563
10-13-2009, 11:31 AM
Once the law becomes effective I've bought my last round in this state. Arizona Oregon and Nevada are all accessable. Screw those hacks in Sacramento. They are so out of touch it's pathetic. Criminals get their ammo from the "well connected" criminals not gun stores. I hope they choke on 962

REH
10-13-2009, 11:47 AM
I checked to see if this was already posted. So if I missed it sorry for the repeat. When I got my ffl in 1984 there was already a law in place that required the seller to document the buyers ID for handgun ammo. After several years that law was removed because it overwhelmend law enforcement with data they could not use or was limited in use., Maybe this bill will go they same way.

RightWingerUSA
10-13-2009, 11:55 AM
Why does anyone need to stock up? Handgun ammo will still be available for sale in unlimited quantities CA.

This law did not ban the sale of ammo.


Are you serious? Do you not understand an outright assault on your Federal Constitutional rights by a liberal, marxist state? Why wouldn't EVERYONE stock up? In my opinion, only the idiots will continue to buy ammunition once fingerprints are required. Yes, ammunition will be available for those willing to further piss away their rights (foremost, privacy rights) and subject themselves voluntarily to the whims of their tyrannical government.

However, I have many guns that were purchased long before any gun laws were on the books. Those guns are not subject to search and seizure because my government doesn't know anything about them or their whereabouts. When you start purchasing .40 or .45 or .357 and you only have a 9 mm registered, you are basically telling your government what they can expect to find in YOUR HOUSE. ANYONE who would purchase ammunition for a gun not on the books would be an absolute MORON at that point.

Not only is this law an infringement on my Constitutional rights, it is an affront to "freedom" in general!

If I could afford to sell my house and relocate to another state, I would do it as soon as humanly possible.

RightWingerUSA
10-13-2009, 11:57 AM
I checked to see if this was already posted. So if I missed it sorry for the repeat. When I got my ffl in 1984 there was already a law in place that required the seller to document the buyers ID for handgun ammo. After several years that law was removed because it overwhelmend law enforcement with data they could not use or was limited in use., Maybe this bill will go they same way.


HAHA! But Al Gore hadn't invented the "Internets" then and data collection was about 1,000 times harder and paper-based. Welcome to the digital age!

DarkHorse
10-13-2009, 12:40 PM
Thanks for creating this thread. It reminded me to get my 03 & COE.

Plus, I hate wading through 6 pages of people B&M'ing to try to find an intelligent answer to an honest question, such as the effect on reloading components.

EBR Works
10-13-2009, 5:01 PM
Thanks for creating this thread. It reminded me to get my 03 & COE.

Plus, I hate wading through 6 pages of people B&M'ing to try to find an intelligent answer to an honest question, such as the effect on reloading components.

Exactly the reason I created it.

rvc-ny
10-13-2009, 7:34 PM
I remind you all of the effect our 'approved handgun' list has had on gunbroker.com. You'll find many sellers that just say "no sales to California" because the process is too complicated and there's a liability that's just not worth risking.

Ammo dealers in CA aren't stupid and they'll realize that, after the new law is effective, there's less supply and therefore prices will go up. Suppliers of reloading components won't understand the law and will just opt out of CA sales. Or that will be a 'loophole' that the Legislature will amend 962 to include.

There's nothing trivial about 962.

Choptop
10-13-2009, 8:18 PM
Are you serious? Do you not understand an outright assault on your Federal Constitutional rights by a liberal, marxist state? Why wouldn't EVERYONE stock up? In my opinion, only the idiots will continue to buy ammunition once fingerprints are required. Yes, ammunition will be available for those willing to further piss away their rights (foremost, privacy rights) and subject themselves voluntarily to the whims of their tyrannical government.

However, I have many guns that were purchased long before any gun laws were on the books. Those guns are not subject to search and seizure because my government doesn't know anything about them or their whereabouts. When you start purchasing .40 or .45 or .357 and you only have a 9 mm registered, you are basically telling your government what they can expect to find in YOUR HOUSE. ANYONE who would purchase ammunition for a gun not on the books would be an absolute MORON at that point.

Not only is this law an infringement on my Constitutional rights, it is an affront to "freedom" in general!

If I could afford to sell my house and relocate to another state, I would do it as soon as humanly possible.


yes I am serious. Like I said, I'm against the law.

So in your opinion... only IDIOTS and MORONS bought ammo between 1968 and 1982 nation wide when you had to give your info?

Brilliant.

cvgunright
10-15-2009, 11:23 AM
(Fade to black ... open scene: Sometime in the future)



"A shooting occurred just around the corner from your home earlier this evening. The two bullet casings found at the scene match the bullets you purchased last week. According to our records, you are the ONLY person in this sector who owns this particular bullet, so until another suspect is identified, you will be charged with the crime. Due to a shortage of funds, it is unlikely that the government will spend the resources to look for another suspect, when we already have one that matches the facts of this case."

"Wait a minute! Were my fingerprints on the casings?!?"

"Unfortunately, no. The two bullets were either loaded using latex gloves, or the casings were wiped clean after the shooting. Either way, this only proves that they are your casings, since, if you had not committed a crime, you wouldn't have loaded bullets into your gun while defeating any fingerprint that would naturally have been left on the casing. Your effort to conceal ownership of those casings by not leaving your fingerprints on them only proves they are yours and this fact will be held against you in the Obama High Court of Socialist Reparations."

(A trooper emerges from your sleeping quarters after ordering your safe opened by ObamaStar)

"Sir. We found these bullets in his safe. There are two rounds missing from the box of 6, fully 1/3 of his legal limit. The ultraviolet scan reveals that these bullets found in his safe do not bear his fingerprints, just like the ones found at the crime scene. They're a perfect match. I think we have all of the evidence we need."

"I shot two rounds yesterday, out in the desert!"

"Did you bring the empty casings back with you?"

"No! We were on the edge of a bluff! They fell down into the canyon!"

"Without the spent casings from this box, we can only assume that the two casings at the crime scene came from this box. Now, if your fingerprints were on the four remaining bullets, you might have a defense, but as it stands, clearly, these four bullets without fingerprints exactly match the two casings without fingerprints found at the crime scene."

"This is ridiculous! I was home all evening! I've been watching Gore-TV!"

"Can you prove this Mr. ChopTop?"




Great read. Don't like this law.
Only problem with your "scenario" is that CSI don't use the bullet casing to identify a crime they use the bullet and the bullet markings to identify the firearm used in a crime.

cvgunright
10-15-2009, 11:29 AM
yes I am serious. Like I said, I'm against the law.

So in your opinion... only IDIOTS and MORONS bought ammo between 1968 and 1982 nation wide when you had to give your info?

Brilliant.

I don't know choptop but you guys got to give him a break- let me summarize

1) He is against this law

2) He thinks the response of Hoarding and "I'm moving out of the State" is silly

3) He thinks that all of us who are gun lovers and who shoot and who might not have the ability to reload will submit to the fingerprinting to purchase ammo to further our passion.

Remember he is against this law. geez..everyone needs to chill and direct the venom for the real culprits. Oakland Raider Fans.

Choptop
10-15-2009, 12:15 PM
I don't know you, and I know nothing about you, but from your posts, it seems that you are not aware of the potential for the abuse of authority, and you do not understand the concept of the "Slippery slope of Liberalism."

So you see nothing wrong with fingerprints. Okay, lets just let our imaginations go wild for a second, shall we???

(Fade to black ... open scene: Sometime in the future)

You are at home watching the Obama channel, since it is the only thing that you can tune in on your gu'mint certified video indoctrinator device, when suddenly your front door flies open and several Obama Troopers storm into your domicile.

"Stand up Mr. ChopTop. you are under arrest."

"What for? I haven't done anything wrong!"

"You will be told the charges after you are locked up in the detainment facility, pending a decision on exactly when you will be prosecuted for this crime. You should expect a decision within six months."

"Can you at least give me a hint?"

"A shooting occurred just around the corner from your home earlier this evening. The two bullet casings found at the scene match the bullets you purchased last week. According to our records, you are the ONLY person in this sector who owns this particular bullet, so until another suspect is identified, you will be charged with the crime. Due to a shortage of funds, it is unlikely that the government will spend the resources to look for another suspect, when we already have one that matches the facts of this case."

"Wait a minute! Were my fingerprints on the casings?!?"

"Unfortunately, no. The two bullets were either loaded using latex gloves, or the casings were wiped clean after the shooting. Either way, this only proves that they are your casings, since, if you had not committed a crime, you wouldn't have loaded bullets into your gun while defeating any fingerprint that would naturally have been left on the casing. Your effort to conceal ownership of those casings by not leaving your fingerprints on them only proves they are yours and this fact will be held against you in the Obama High Court of Socialist Reparations."

(A trooper emerges from your sleeping quarters after ordering your safe opened by ObamaStar)

"Sir. We found these bullets in his safe. There are two rounds missing from the box of 6, fully 1/3 of his legal limit. The ultraviolet scan reveals that these bullets found in his safe do not bear his fingerprints, just like the ones found at the crime scene. They're a perfect match. I think we have all of the evidence we need."

"I shot two rounds yesterday, out in the desert!"

"Did you bring the empty casings back with you?"

"No! We were on the edge of a bluff! They fell down into the canyon!"

"Without the spent casings from this box, we can only assume that the two casings at the crime scene came from this box. Now, if your fingerprints were on the four remaining bullets, you might have a defense, but as it stands, clearly, these four bullets without fingerprints exactly match the two casings without fingerprints found at the crime scene."

"This is ridiculous! I was home all evening! I've been watching Gore-TV!"

"Can you prove this Mr. ChopTop?"

"Well, um ... the show was about global warming ... and there were some polar bears ... and a guy from Berkeley talking about how conservatives want old people to curl up and die! ... and ..."

"You'll have to be more specific Mr. ChopTop. That is the plot of every Gore-TV broadcast."

"For the record! I did NOT shoot ANYONE TONIGHT!"

"Trooper Acorn-36, note that criminal's statement excluded all previous nights. Have headquarters search for all other shootings involving these fingerprint-free rounds and add them to his charges. Note that his confession was not taken under duress... Lets go Mr. ChopTop ..."
-----------------------------------------------

Consider also, that if you shoot at a range, and you don't pick up EVERY casing that bears your fingerprints, and ONLY YOUR casings, you run the risk of someone else picking up a casing bearing your fingerprints and dropping it at a crime scene, leaving YOU to answer a lot of questions about how casings with YOUR fingerprints on them wound up on the ground near a dead guy!



Need I say more?

as someone who is VERY familiar with Law Enforcement and what is done to investigate crimes, I can tell you with 100% certainty that knowing who bought what caliber of ammo is of ZERO use in solving a crime. The thumbprint given at the time of ammo purchase sits in a book at the store where you bought the ammo. Thats as far as it goes. No Live Scan, no nothing. To find you fingerprint an LEO would have to look through, and then digitize every page of every book kept in every place that sold ammo in the state. The state already has your fingerprint from when you got a drivers license or bought your gun. The info gleaned from this new law is completely useless.

The scenario you present has nothing to do with knowing who bought what kind of ammo. fingerprints found on shell casings found at the scene of a crime have nothing to do with when/where/who bought the ammo.

a swing and a huge miss.

Again, I ask you the question... how many times was the info of who bought what ammo abused from 1968-1982 when you had to give your info for buying ammo?

and drop the "you must be a liberal" crap. Its really stupid. As is the "obama" clap-trap. Remember, this bill was signed into law by a state level Republican.

LexLuther
10-15-2009, 10:28 PM
Ok, I found this post on another thread, but I think the idea is brilliant. Imagine charter busses running up and down the state to pick up fellow enthusiasts for a trip to Reno. Maybe we could have a few pick-up locations up and down I-5 and bring back a buss load of ammo, etc.

Original Post by TRICKSTE:
How about Calguns Cabelas bus trips. Reno for N.CA and Vegas for S.CA. Set it up a few months in advance and see if Cabelas will stock accordingly. We could do the same thing for the Reno and Vegas gun shows. Buy all the reloading supplies or ammo out of state. Not only untraceable, but also untaxed.

stockranger
10-15-2009, 10:41 PM
I'm there! Ok fax in my list.

I want a truck load of 10mm. 2 truck loads of mach2. 1 truck load of every kind of subsonic HP 22lr, and a mountain of 40 gr. mini mags. Oh don't forget some 40-50-and 60 gr vmax loaded for the .223:D

mmartin
10-16-2009, 9:50 AM
as someone who is VERY familiar with Law Enforcement and what is done to investigate crimes, I can tell you with 100% certainty that knowing who bought what caliber of ammo is of ZERO use in solving a crime. The thumbprint given at the time of ammo purchase sits in a book at the store where you bought the ammo. Thats as far as it goes. No Live Scan, no nothing. To find you fingerprint an LEO would have to look through, and then digitize every page of every book kept in every place that sold ammo in the state. The state already has your fingerprint from when you got a drivers license or bought your gun. The info gleaned from this new law is completely useless.

The scenario you present has nothing to do with knowing who bought what kind of ammo. fingerprints found on shell casings found at the scene of a crime have nothing to do with when/where/who bought the ammo.

a swing and a huge miss.


so a question for you as someone very familiar with LE...
since this bill is being touted as a HUGE boon to law enforcement... how DO you see it getting used?
and how do you see it getting abused?
megan

mmartin
10-16-2009, 9:51 AM
I'm there! Ok fax in my list.

I want a truck load of 10mm. 2 truck loads of mach2. 1 truck load of every kind of subsonic HP 22lr, and a mountain of 40 gr. mini mags. Oh don't forget some 40-50-and 60 gr vmax loaded for the .223:D

dude, you're going to need your OWN bus.
megan

DocSkinner
10-16-2009, 10:28 AM
so a question for you as someone very familiar with LE...
since this bill is being touted as a HUGE boon to law enforcement... how DO you see it getting used?
and how do you see it getting abused?
megan

This is the usual disconnect between the real LEOs that work for a living, and the elected/appointed politico's hiding in LEO uniforms.

Not trying to answer for him, but IMO, most PDs will probably not do much, other than forced stuff, and the usual suspects (SF, LA) will use it to hammer and abuse anyone foolish enough to keep selling ammo if this actually goes into effect, none will bother trying to use it for crime solving. Some may use it as an excuse to question (harrass) and possible search homes of anyone that recently bought a caliber/manufacturer used for a crime. I am sure some dumb judge(s) will be willing to issue search warrants. Which is a big part of the whole thing - getting in and inspecting "gun nuts" to help keep society safe...

DocSkinner
10-16-2009, 10:29 AM
I'm there! Ok fax in my list.

I want a truck load of 10mm. 2 truck loads of mach2. 1 truck load of every kind of subsonic HP 22lr, and a mountain of 40 gr. mini mags. Oh don't forget some 40-50-and 60 gr vmax loaded for the .223:D

you got almost a year at least to get it - better get on those BO lists now!

Choptop
10-16-2009, 12:25 PM
so a question for you as someone very familiar with LE...
since this bill is being touted as a HUGE boon to law enforcement... how DO you see it getting used?
and how do you see it getting abused?
megan

it wont get used, or abused.

The way the law is written, the sales records can only be accessed as part of an investigation. That would on the surface cut out baseless "fishing trips" to look at ammo sales records. Could that still happen? Sure, but it would be very hard to defend it in court. Not worth the time or the effort. So it wont happen. But even at that... if you do find someone prohibited from buying ammo on the list, then the law worked as designed. No abuse.

Think about the logistics... none of the info is computerized. None of it is submitted to a central location. If you wanted to see if a person prohibited from buying ammo has bought some you would have to travel to every place in CA that sells ammo and look at the books, manually. Might you get lucky and find the person's name in at a store somewhere nearby? Yep. Likely? No. If someone prohibited by law from having ammo is found with it in their possession, the fact that they have ammo in their possession is enough for a charge and a conviction. That fact that they bought it at "XYZ" store on "X-X-XX" date doesnt really matter.

If someone is arrested for some other charges, they are prohibited from buying ammo and an LEO suspects that they had bought ammo... then this law MIGHT have some use... but then again, how do you suspect someone bought ammo? Where do you start checking? How big a radius around where they live do you go? If you do find info that they bought ammo, then the law works as designed. Not very likely.


Abuse? Like what? A fishing trip (see above about that) and picking a name out of the book at random and saying... "....oh I see John Doe bought 100/1000/100,000 rounds of 9mm, I wonder what he is doing with that?" What possible good can that do? There is no law against buying 9mm ammo. Some have said, well what if John Doe doesnt have a 9mm gun? So? Still no law against buying ammo, even for guns you dont own. I do it all the time. Friends guns, hunting trips, range trips (rented guns or friends guns), plinking days... The info is useless. There is no connection between buying ammo and any indication of a crime having been committed. I'm not seeing any avenue for abuse.

issuing a search warrant on a random home because someone there bought 9mm ammo and 9mm ammo was used in a crime... what.... nearby? close to the time the crime was committed? No chance in hell. Where do you start searching for the name/address that you want to search warrant for? The nearest ammo sales dealer? The largest ammo sales dealer? How far back do you look in the records? 1 day? 1 week? 1 month? 1 year? 2 years? 5 years? Why do you think that time frame is the right one? Which name do you pick... the one that bought most?, the least? the most expensive? the cheapest? How do you have a suspicion that the buyer then used the ammo in a crime? All of these are questions that will have to be answered before a search warrant is issued and a justification for each step would have to be given as to why they might point towards the person that bought the ammo being involved in the crime. Say for some weird reason you do get a search warrant... and then you search the house and find that YES, the person that is indicated to have bought 9mm ammo, does indeed have 9mm ammo (surprise), or they dont have it any more (gave it to a friend, ate it, shot it, flushed it down the toilet, gave it away as a wedding gift)... then what? What possible incrimination does that prove?

kinda like saying.. .there was a bank robbery, the robbers got away in a car... lets start checking to see who bought gasoline.

none, its useless info.

Deamer
10-16-2009, 5:11 PM
I have trying to search here on calgun for the thread with the link to the Sacramento City Council meeting in reference to what I posted.

Sure without a warrant the guy would not have to hand over his gun, however, the cops showing up at his door because he bought ammo of the same caliber that was used in a homicide and without additional fact to show he was involved is just wrong IMO.

Here ya go. 1 hour four minutes in is the guy telling the story to the council.
44 minutes in is the start of the ammunition ordinance briefing by the police.

http://sacramento.granicus.com/MediaPlayer.php?view_id=17&clip_id=1590

The abuse has already started. Listen to the cops reply after the young man speaks. From what i heard he admitted that buying certain ammo can make you suspect.

donstarr
10-16-2009, 5:25 PM
Here ya go. 1 hour four minutes in is the guy telling the story to the council.
44 minutes in is the start of the ammunition ordinance briefing by the police.

http://sacramento.granicus.com/MediaPlayer.php?view_id=17&clip_id=1590

The abuse has already started. Listen to the cops reply after the young man speaks. From what i heard he admitted that buying certain ammo can make you suspect.

I especially liked the response from the (presumed) council member who then replied to the cop, where she asked for the gender, ethnicity, etc. of everyone who was contacted by the PD but not determined to be a prohibited person.

GuyW
10-16-2009, 6:45 PM
Hopefully, I'm not repeating myself, but my crystal ball says this never goes into effect....
.

Jerkdog
10-16-2009, 6:57 PM
geez..everyone needs to chill and direct the venom for the real culprits. Oakland Raider Fans.

Yeah, totally. ;) Oh wait, I'm a Raiders fan.

Crap!

Choptop
10-16-2009, 7:22 PM
Here ya go. 1 hour four minutes in is the guy telling the story to the council.
44 minutes in is the start of the ammunition ordinance briefing by the police.

http://sacramento.granicus.com/MediaPlayer.php?view_id=17&clip_id=1590

The abuse has already started. Listen to the cops reply after the young man speaks. From what i heard he admitted that buying certain ammo can make you suspect.

link doesnt work.

There has been no abuse.

Thanks - FUD Police.

5ohguy
10-16-2009, 7:33 PM
Thanks for the update. I'm glad reloading components aren't effected.

lrdchivalry
10-16-2009, 8:56 PM
link doesnt work.

There has been no abuse.

Thanks - FUD Police.

The link worked for me.

As for the abuse issue, if you have seen the video you would have known based on the statement made by Mr. Martinez that he found a card on his door from an officer at Sac PD, Mr. Martinez called the officer and was told they were trying to contact him in regards to the homicide over the weekend and that he purchased a certain type of ammo. According to Mr. Martinez the officer he spoke to said I need to take your gun to run a ballistics test on it to rule you out as a suspect. That did not sound like a request IMO. Based solely on the fact he purchased ammo of the same caliber that was used in a homicide and without any other evidence that he was involved prompted a demand, not a request, for his gun.

Police FUD.. I don't think so.

bodger
10-16-2009, 9:16 PM
The link worked for me.

As for the abuse issue, if you have seen the video you would have known based on the statement made by Mr. Martinez that he found a card on his door from an officer at Sac PD, Mr. Martinez called the officer and was told they were trying to contact him in regards to the homicide over the weekend and that he purchased a certain type of ammo. According to Mr. Martinez the officer he spoke to said I need to take your gun to run a ballistics test on it to rule you out as a suspect. That did not sound like a request IMO. Based solely on the fact he purchased ammo of the same caliber that was used in a homicide and without any other evidence that he was involved prompted a demand, not a request, for his gun.

Police FUD.. I don't think so.


Wouldn't they need a warrant for the gun?

What a nightmare. You buy 9mm. Somebody gets shot with 9mm. They just randomly collect 9mm pistols until they get a ball match?

I'll bet that gun came back a lot later.

lrdchivalry
10-16-2009, 10:00 PM
Wouldn't they need a warrant for the gun?

Yes, however, they are hoping that the person contacted will have the same thought as Mr. Martinez, who had "nothing to hide" so sure you can have my gun. If he would have said no, then the question would be, what would Sac PD have done to acquire a warrant without additional info?

What a nightmare. You buy 9mm. Somebody gets shot with 9mm. They just randomly collect 9mm pistols until they get a ball match?

That is why you tell them that unless they have a warrant they cannot have the gun. If they produce one then you file a FOIA to get a copy of the report they submitted to a judge to get the warrant and see if there was any mis-conduct.

I'll bet that gun came back a lot later.

Who knows. He never mentioned whether he got his gun back or not.

mmartin
10-16-2009, 10:24 PM
The link worked for me.

As for the abuse issue, if you have seen the video you would have known based on the statement made by Mr. Martinez that he found a card on his door from an officer at Sac PD, Mr. Martinez called the officer and was told they were trying to contact him in regards to the homicide over the weekend and that he purchased a certain type of ammo. According to Mr. Martinez the officer he spoke to said I need to take your gun to run a ballistics test on it to rule you out as a suspect. That did not sound like a request IMO. Based solely on the fact he purchased ammo of the same caliber that was used in a homicide and without any other evidence that he was involved prompted a demand, not a request, for his gun.

Police FUD.. I don't think so.


I hate it when it turns out I'm not baselessly paranoid after all... just good at predicting where these things will go.
*this* is what I meant by abuse
megan

Choptop
10-16-2009, 10:31 PM
The link worked for me.

As for the abuse issue, if you have seen the video you would have known based on the statement made by Mr. Martinez that he found a card on his door from an officer at Sac PD, Mr. Martinez called the officer and was told they were trying to contact him in regards to the homicide over the weekend and that he purchased a certain type of ammo. According to Mr. Martinez the officer he spoke to said I need to take your gun to run a ballistics test on it to rule you out as a suspect. That did not sound like a request IMO. Based solely on the fact he purchased ammo of the same caliber that was used in a homicide and without any other evidence that he was involved prompted a demand, not a request, for his gun.

Police FUD.. I don't think so.

The video wouldnt paly on my computer.

I call BS on Mr. Martinez.

I know of no one in the Sac PD that has done any such thing. I try to look into it. This was over a year ago so it might be a little hard to find out...particularly if its an open case.

I'd REALLY like to know the name of the officer on the card.

It should be noted that Sac City's system is computer based and reports to a central database. The new law does no such thing. Refer to my previous post about what one would have to do in order to find info on ammo purchases.

Uriah02
10-16-2009, 10:45 PM
They are in shock and awe over 3% success rate!? I am curious if any of the council members owned businesses in the past. Even if it has been a useful program it is incredibly inefficient.

lrdchivalry
10-17-2009, 12:13 AM
I call BS on Mr. Martinez.

Based on what evidence? The officer at the meeting and responded after Mr. Martinez's statement didn't deny it took place. How are you in a position to make that statement? Are you the officer who Mr. Martinez spoke too and can provide first hand knowledge of the phone conversation?

I know of no one in the Sac PD that has done any such thing. I try to look into it. This was over a year ago so it might be a little hard to find out...particularly if its an open case.

Just because you don't know of anyone who did it does not mean it didn't happen.

I'd REALLY like to know the name of the officer on the card.

Never mentioned in the video, however, as stated above the officer who spoke in response never denied what happened.

It should be noted that Sac City's system is computer based and reports to a central database. The new law does no such thing. Refer to my previous post about what one would have to do in order to find info on ammo purchases.

Computer based or not does not mean it is not subject to abuse. The only difference would be that the officer would have to go to each gun store and get the info instead of sitting at his desk and accessing it.

Choptop
10-17-2009, 8:52 AM
Based on what evidence? The officer at the meeting and responded after Mr. Martinez's statement didn't deny it took place. How are you in a position to make that statement? Are you the officer who Mr. Martinez spoke too and can provide first hand knowledge of the phone conversation?


what do you think? Of course not. I am in a position to know the inner workings of the Sac PD. You figure out the rest.
Ballistic testing on a gun thought to be used in a murder would entail a little more that just a card on the door and a "we'd like to test your gun pretty please" note. Like I said, I'll do what I can to look into it. Dont know if I can find anything out, but I'll try.



Just because you don't know of anyone who did it does not mean it didn't happen.

see above.



Never mentioned in the video, however, as stated above the officer who spoke in response never denied what happened.

I've seen the video now, and the officer that commented didnt say it did happen either. He wouldnt have known either way, he was there to giver a powerpoint presentation, not to address public comments on specific cases.




Computer based or not does not mean it is not subject to abuse. The only difference would be that the officer would have to go to each gun store and get the info instead of sitting at his desk and accessing it.


It makes a HUGE difference. Refer to my comment as to what it would take to look up info on a non computerized system.

The only difference is that an officer would have to go to EVERY gun store... IN THE STATE.

That is a HUGE difference.


you can go on being paranoid if you like, but look at the reality of the situation and what it would take to use AB962 in an abusive manner. There have been more than a few LEO's that have posted here stating that its just not possible to do. You can go on to believe whatever you like after that. But the smart person would look at the facts and not be given over to wild flights of paranoid fancy.

Perhaps you are too young to remember, but this has happened before... nationwide from 1968-1982 you had to give your info to buy ammo. Do you recall one case of abuse during that period?

again.. think.

lrdchivalry
10-17-2009, 9:29 PM
what do you think? Of course not. I am in a position to know the inner workings of the Sac PD. You figure out the rest.

How do you know the inner workings of Sac PD? Since you were not the officer involved in the phone call you cannot say it didn't happen.


Ballistic testing on a gun thought to be used in a murder would entail a little more that just a card on the door and a "we'd like to test your gun pretty please" note. Like I said, I'll do what I can to look into it. Dont know if I can find anything out, but I'll try.

You would think, however, it's obvious that Sac PD is demanding guns from people based on Mr. Martinez's statement. His weapon was not the one used in the homicide and there no other info that would have tied him to the crime being mentioned other than the caliber of ammo he bought.


It makes a HUGE difference. Refer to my comment as to what it would take to look up info on a non computerized system.

The only difference is that an officer would have to go to EVERY gun store... IN THE STATE.

That is a HUGE difference.

I disagree. If this law is enacted the potential for abuse is there. You cannot say that if a murder was committed in San Diego, that SDPD would not be checking all the gun stores in the city to see who bought ammo in the same caliber as the ammo used in the murder and demanding citizens to turn over their weapons for ballistic testing without any other facts to link that person to the crime.

I predict that after the implementation of AB962 the state will push for an electronic database.

you can go on being paranoid if you like, but look at the reality of the situation and what it would take to use AB962 in an abusive manner. There have been more than a few LEO's that have posted here stating that its just not possible to do. You can go on to believe whatever you like after that. But the smart person would look at the facts and not be given over to wild flights of paranoid fancy.

Paranoid? No, just someone who sees the potential for abuse and as the video shows it is happenening. According to Mr. Martinez's statement, it wasn't a request for his gun but a demand.There is no reason that the state needs to know what type of ammo I am buying. I guess we will wait and see wont we?

Perhaps you are too young to remember, but this has happened before... nationwide from 1968-1982 you had to give your info to buy ammo. Do you recall one case of abuse during that period?

again.. think.

If you remember that the federal government stop collecting that data because it was ineffective in fighting crime. If it was ineffective on a national level I doubt it will work on a state level.

Choptop
10-17-2009, 10:53 PM
If you remember that the federal government stop collecting that data because it was ineffective in fighting crime. If it was ineffective on a national level I doubt it will work on a state level.


yes, I know... any cases of abuse?


check your PM's for further answers

Choptop
10-17-2009, 10:58 PM
Paranoid? No, just someone who sees the potential for abuse and as the video shows it is happenening. According to Mr. Martinez's statement, it wasn't a request for his gun but a demand.There is no reason that the state needs to know what type of ammo I am buying. I guess we will wait and see wont we?
.

You are reading WAY too much into that. The video doesnt say there was a "demand". The video doesnt even say if a gun was ever turned over to the police, the video doesnt mention anything that substantiates the claim other than the claim.

SgtWaggoner
10-17-2009, 11:53 PM
Magazines, speed loaders, and bullets are listed, so technically aren't they apart of the bill? Primers, Powder, And Cases are not listed as individual components, just bullets them selves.

It's been almost a year since I have managed to find any federal 22lr value packs at walmart, and I probably won't find them now!

You can get all the 22lr you want from many on-line sources that do not require fingerprinting, like Sportsmansguide, Ammunitiontogo.com, cheaperthandirt.com & Cabelas.com...
If Wal-Mart doesn't have it go on-line...I Have ordered 2500 rounds of .22lr for a decent price from Sportsmansguide.

lrdchivalry
10-18-2009, 12:09 AM
You are reading WAY too much into that. The video doesnt say there was a "demand".

Mr. Martinez states that the cop said I need to take your gun to run a ballistics test on it to rule you out as a suspect. That does not sound like a request. Spin it however you want to but, I need to take your gun is not a request.

The video doesnt even say if a gun was ever turned over to the police, the video doesnt mention anything that substantiates the claim other than the claim.

It doesn't say it wasn't turned over either and just because the video doesn't substantiate the claim doesn't not mean it didn't happen.

DocSkinner
10-23-2009, 1:39 PM
They are in shock and awe over 3% success rate!? I am curious if any of the council members owned businesses in the past. Even if it has been a useful program it is incredibly inefficient.

hey - that's more successful than any of the other things they have tried, which usually have a high negative return... so if you look at the difference between -20% and +3% - this is 23 percent successful compared to past attempts! I mean come on, you don't think these politician think in real world terms, do you?

Marauder2003
12-18-2010, 5:21 AM
Well, the mailorder warnings are starting. Got this today. 12/18/2010

http://www.cabelas.com/custserv/custserv_popup.jsp?pageName=californiapop

stockranger
12-18-2010, 8:54 AM
I stocked up on double tap 10mm ammo last month.

So this thing says just handgun ammo. What about the rest of the ammo and what falls under handgun ammo.

I purchase all my shotgun shells and .223 REM from cabelas. Will I still be able to do that?

Luckily they have the .22lr I like at basspro. The rest of the ammo is available at walmart. I bought 40 sw barrel for my glock so I can keep shooting it since the 10mm ammo I have has to last me till I move out of state.

I thought this was going to go to court but I guess not.

Grakken
12-18-2010, 9:27 AM
Well i'm glad i didnt listen to the folks who said this would never go into effect...and choptop, besides having the hassle to be fingerprinted to buy ammo, which by your admission is useless, it's the fact that prices will be going up on ammo (again)...or that is, they are already high at the local shops compared to online, I think they only get higher now.

Jake71
12-18-2010, 12:03 PM
All purchases I make will be forever out of state so that I pay no taxes to California. All purchases for ammo will be a weekend drive to the next state over if necessary, again no tax for California.

The state of California is clearly not focused where they should be and creating laws that hassle/inconvenience law abiding citizens should not be rewarded.

I'm sure we can get a few guys together and carpool to another state for ammo purchases and gear.

CMonfort
12-18-2010, 1:39 PM
I thought this was going to go to court but I guess not.

See here: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=374110

Hawkashay
12-18-2010, 3:52 PM
Well i'm glad i didnt listen to the folks who said this would never go into effect...and choptop, besides having the hassle to be fingerprinted to buy ammo, which by your admission is useless, it's the fact that prices will be going up on ammo (again)...or that is, they are already high at the local shops compared to online, I think they only get higher now.

Me too. Locally, 20-round boxes of Speer Gold Dot 124+P sell for $31 + tax. You are lucky to see 2 or 3 boxes in stock. I can buy 50-round boxes online for between $23 - $25 a box. Tax and shipping is a wash if buy a several boxes online. That's approximately 150% cheaper.

I can get he same cost benefits for Ranger T-Series and Federal HST online. They are not available local at all.

www.sgammo.com is the best I have dealt with. They don't gouge you on shipping. Cheapest in the business.

stockranger
12-18-2010, 3:58 PM
This hurts people who have odd calibers the most. It doesn't matter how far I drive or what state I go to there is not going to be any Hot 10mm ammo suitable for hunting. When my stash runs out I have nothing but a 10mm paper weight.

CharAznable
12-18-2010, 4:35 PM
I would guess you need about 6 months worth on hand. Some of the lawsuits can only be made once the ban is in effect.

SoCalCitizen
12-18-2010, 8:55 PM
Yep, I was one of those that didn't really think this would come to be. Been buying online and locally from wally world. I make it to az couple times a year also. Wondering if cali wally worlds will still remain in ammo selling business next year. Ya think next over states ammo prices will rise knowing that plenty of us will hop on over to buy from them. Good luck

Anchors
12-19-2010, 12:18 AM
Yep, I was one of those that didn't really think this would come to be. Been buying online and locally from wally world. I make it to az couple times a year also. Wondering if cali wally worlds will still remain in ammo selling business next year. Ya think next over states ammo prices will rise knowing that plenty of us will hop on over to buy from them. Good luck

I was informed by the guy who runs the sporting goods counter at mine and another Walmart employee at a different location that Walmart will cease selling ammo once the law goes into effect because they don't want to deal with potential lawsuits and fines.

Ursus Indomitus
12-19-2010, 1:12 AM
Why does anyone need to stock up? Handgun ammo will still be available for sale in unlimited quantities CA.

This law did not ban the sale of ammo.

No, but unless you lie about your address, the Damme Government will know right where to go to get your stuff.

1060 W. Addison St. Chicago IL. 60613