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jdberger
10-12-2009, 10:38 AM
Straight from the horse's ... err... mouth

Media Press Release

California's Governor Signs Legislation To Help Track Ammunition Sales
Oct 12, 2009


Sacramento, CA – Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger signed into law legislation that will help law enforcement officials track down and apprehend armed criminals and other prohibited persons. AB 962 by Assembly Member Kevin DeLeon (D-Los Angeles) had the support of law enforcement officials from across the state and was modeled after successful city ordinances, including the cities of Sacramento and Los Angeles. AB 962 was the Brady Campaign’s top priority bill in this year’s legislature.

The law requires maintenance of purchaser records by handgun ammunition vendors. Local law enforcement can use these records to find illegal guns.

“The purchase records will provide our police officers with yet another tool to track down and apprehend armed and dangerous criminals,” said Paul Helmke, President of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence.

The new law also requires the safe storage of handgun ammunition in stores and that all handgun ammunition sales be completed in face-to-face transactions. Sacramento and Los Angeles have had great success over the last few years with similar city ordinances. “Law enforcement officials in both cities have had great success in tracking down violent criminals who purchased ammunition in Sacramento and Los Angeles,” said Ellen Boneparth, President of the California Brady Campaign Chapters. “Our California Brady Chapters were instrumental in urging cities to pass the local ordinances and getting strong support statewide for AB 962.”

A 2006 study by the Rand Corporation on Los Angeles’ city ordinance showed 10,050 rounds of ammunition were purchased by prohibited persons in a period of just two months. The study concluded “…monitoring ammunition transactions may help reduce the supply of ammunition to criminals and the frequency of injuries from felonious gun assaults. Such a record can also provide information for generating leads on illegal firearm possession.”

The results of the Sacramento ammunition ordinance were also striking. From January 16, 2008 to August 31, 2009, 229 prohibited people purchased ammunition of which 173 had previous felony convictions, including gang members. From the matching of ammunition purchase records to the California prohibited persons file, the Sacramento DA was able to charge 181 of the purchasers with felonies. In addition, 160 illegal firearms were seized from the prohibited persons, as well as cash, drugs, and explosive devices.


###

As the nation's largest, non-partisan, grassroots organization leading the fight to prevent gun violence, the Brady Campaign, with its dedicated network of Million Mom March Chapters, works to enact and enforce sensible gun laws, regulations and public policies. The Brady Campaign is devoted to creating an America free from gun violence, where all Americans are safe at home, at school, at work, and in our communities.

For continuing insight and comment on the gun issue, read Paul Helmke's blog at www.bradycampaign.org/blog/. Visit the Brady Campaign website at www.bradycampaign.org.


Why does Helmke call them "our police officers"?

otteray
10-12-2009, 12:53 PM
Well then, this is a good thing!
The gang bangers will not have any ammo anymore.
Next, they will turn their guns in and world peace will at last be a reality as all gangs and thugs follow suit.

Someones laughing, lord, kumbaya
Someones laughing, lord, kumbaya
Someones laughing, lord, kumbaya
Oh lord, kumbaya

Cal-Irish
10-12-2009, 1:10 PM
If CGF get AB 962 overturned. I will love them longtime.

Toolbox X
10-12-2009, 1:13 PM
The results of the Sacramento ammunition ordinance were also striking. From January 16, 2008 to August 31, 2009, 229 prohibited people purchased ammunition of which 173 had previous felony convictions, including gang members. From the matching of ammunition purchase records to the California prohibited persons file, the Sacramento DA was able to charge 181 of the purchasers with felonies. In addition, 160 illegal firearms were seized from the prohibited persons, as well as cash, drugs, and explosive devices.

Is this true? Given the source I am certain this info is spun dramatically. Does anyone have real information about this?

Jerkdog
10-12-2009, 1:18 PM
Is this true? Given the source I am certain this info is spun dramatically. Does anyone have real information about this?

Someone previously posted a copy of a powerpoint presentation that included this information. I have a copy at home - will post tonite after work, unless someone else beats me to the punch.

bwiese
10-12-2009, 1:24 PM
Is this true? Given the source I am certain this info is spun dramatically. Does anyone have real information about this?

It's been really spun.

Not only that, SPD was knocking on doors/interrogating wholly innocent folks that bought 40S&W ammo at Big5 (or whatever) because some gangbanger down the road ventilated another gangbanger's crib.

A SPD senior officer - at a Sacto hearing about ammo registration for buyers - was overhead telling someone else that "it didn't matter, and he was just there because his job/bosses required it". (approximate quote told thru 3rd party, but in essence correct).

leitung
10-12-2009, 1:35 PM
I am sorry it too me so long to respond, i was busy cleaning vomit off my computer screen after reading this..

BOFH
10-12-2009, 1:41 PM
“The purchase records will provide our police officers with yet another tool to track down and apprehend armed and dangerous criminals,” said Paul Helmke, President of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence.

Oh yea? How exactly?

Considering things that are straight out illegal to own (drugs and such) cant be kept out of the hands of criminals I am pretty sure that requiring a ID and a thumbprint are going to be pretty useless. This is nothing but a law designed to be a PITA to gun owners.

woodsman
10-12-2009, 1:48 PM
Oh yea? How exactly?

Considering things that are straight out illegal to own (drugs and such) cant be kept out of the hands of criminals I am pretty sure that requiring a ID and a thumbprint are going to be pretty useless. This is nothing but a law designed to be a PITA to gun owners.

The fact escapes them that criminals just don't obey the law. Isn't that why they are criminals? "sigh"

PonchoTA
10-12-2009, 1:49 PM
Yeah sure Paul (Helmke), all the criminals and gangbangers are buying their ammo from Walmart like I do. :rolleyes:

They keep misunderstanding what "infringed" means. Dumb_asses. :mad:

.

bigcalidave
10-12-2009, 1:55 PM
I'd like to know of those 181 felony convictions how many actually served any time in the overcrowded prisons, how many of them were violent offenders on the first felony that got them banned, etc.

stix213
10-12-2009, 1:56 PM
My only hope is that the local gun shops start actually keeping ammo in stock and start getting some of the more difficult to find stuff.

Blackhawk556
10-12-2009, 2:00 PM
this article is so stupid, I feel so much anger reading crap like this i feel like kicking my grandma :mad:

jk

freonr22
10-12-2009, 2:05 PM
I feel so much anger reading crap like this i feel like kicking my grandma :mad:

New sigline Material

kermit315
10-12-2009, 2:12 PM
Yeah sure Paul (Helmke), all the criminals and gangbangers are buying their ammo from Walmart like I do. :rolleyes:

They keep misunderstanding what "infringed" means. Dumb_asses. :mad:

.

They dont misunderstand, they just dont care.

chris
10-12-2009, 2:26 PM
Brady is so full of crap if they think this will stop gangbangers from shooting up the place. how stupid. but i guess this state will soon recieve an A+ from them pretty soon. F the governor and all politicians.

The Director
10-12-2009, 2:29 PM
Man, I didn't need to read that horse**** after the defeat. Salt in the wound!

sonico
10-12-2009, 2:30 PM
Honestly, those running this state need to stop screwing around and just outlaw crime. Then we can finally stop worrying about the murderers and gang bangers buying up our self defense and plinking ammunition and just stop it at the source!

And we can call it something impossible to veto. Like...I don't know maybe the Anti-Gang Neighborhood Protection Act.

LesGrossman41510
10-12-2009, 2:33 PM
wow we lost the battle.

LesGrossman41510
10-12-2009, 2:37 PM
Hahaha scrolling through their website is hillarious.

they have a counter which is saying that 200 people have been shot today.


what the heck are these people smoking.


when is their next meeting or rally??

CGF needs to be there in FORCE, with open carry and everything. We need to take the fight directly to these wankers.

JagerTroop
10-12-2009, 2:46 PM
...As the nation's largest, non-partisan, grassroots organization leading the fight to prevent gun violence, the Brady Campaign...

Non-partisan? Why do I have a tough time swallowing that?

bodger
10-12-2009, 3:22 PM
After reading that, I feel like going down the corner to buy myself some heroin.
But I don't want to have to give my fingerprint to the dealer.
See? It does stop crime!

Hell of an idea.

Shotgun Man
10-12-2009, 3:24 PM
Non-partisan? Why do I have a tough time swallowing that?

It is a true statement. They seek only to outlaw guns. They lobby republicans with much success, as evidenced by our current situation.

Jerkdog
10-12-2009, 9:14 PM
The results of the Sacramento ammunition ordinance were also striking. From January 16, 2008 to August 31, 2009, 229 prohibited people purchased ammunition of which 173 had previous felony convictions, including gang members. From the matching of ammunition purchase records to the California prohibited persons file, the Sacramento DA was able to charge 181 of the purchasers with felonies. In addition, 160 illegal firearms were seized from the prohibited persons, as well as cash, drugs, and explosive devices.

Is this true? Given the source I am certain this info is spun dramatically. Does anyone have real information about this?

Someone previously posted a copy of a powerpoint presentation that included this information. I have a copy at home - will post tonite after work, unless someone else beats me to the punch.

I posted the presentation info here:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=3202411&posted=1#post3202411

Post #175

Timberline
10-12-2009, 9:36 PM
Brady is so full of crap if they think this will stop gangbangers from shooting up the place. how stupid. but i guess this state will soon recieve an A+ from them pretty soon.

No, it's not, and such talk has no place at CalGuns. Who here would ever condone murdering their political foes? The way forward is to organize and vote them out of office.

chris
10-12-2009, 9:40 PM
No, it's not, and such talk has no place at CalGuns. Who here would ever condone murdering their political foes? The way forward is to organize and vote them out of office.

yeah good luck voting these turds out next year. i bet they will still be here. no matter how hard we try and organize to vote them out they will be re-elected year after year. people in this state are stupid like this.

devildog999
10-12-2009, 9:42 PM
They truly are delusional

dchang0
10-12-2009, 9:46 PM
The fact escapes them that criminals just don't obey the law. Isn't that why they are criminals? "sigh"

Nor does it seem to lessen their arrogance to know that even though murder was banned since the days of Cain and Abel, even God Himself has been unable to stop millions of murders from happening throughout man's history.

But of course, liberals and their kind think they're more powerful than God.

M. Sage
10-12-2009, 10:36 PM
Local law enforcement can use these records to find illegal guns.

Oh, so the jackboots are going to be perusing ammo records at the local gun shops regularly?

That's a comforting thought.

darkwater
10-12-2009, 11:32 PM
Quote: The results of the Sacramento ammunition ordinance were also striking. From January 16, 2008 to August 31, 2009, 229 prohibited people purchased ammunition of which 173 had previous felony convictions, including gang members. From the matching of ammunition purchase records to the California prohibited persons file, the Sacramento DA was able to charge 181 of the purchasers with felonies. In addition, 160 illegal firearms were seized from the prohibited persons, as well as cash, drugs, and explosive devices.

Let's put a different spin on these numbers, using percentages based on the statistics posted by Sacramento City PD, because the above numbers posted by the Brady group do not flesh out the whole story. For example, the above does not discuss how many actual convictions resulted from the charges filed by the DA, or how many cases involved only handgun ammunition. See: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=35069&d=1255406459.

Those stats show that out of all the ammunition purchased, 3.2% was purchased by prohibited persons. Of this number, only 25.7% were actually convicted of a crime, though not necessarily on the possession of ammunition itself. Of this number, 67% involved purchases of ammunition that is primarily used in handguns. And, of this number, if we assume in a worst case scenario that no criminal possessed more than one handgun and that only those possessing a handgun would buy handgun ammo, 38% actually possessed a handgun that could utilize the ammunition they purchased.

So, doing the math, (3.2%x25.7%x67%x38%), the requirement for 100% of handgun ammunition purchases to be registered under AB 962 will result in no more than 0.2% (two-tenths of a percent) of those purchases leading to the conviction of prohibited persons that purchase handgun ammunition for a handgun illegally in their possession. That's less than 10 convictions in a whole year's worth of ammo sales in Sacramento based on AB 962's requirements. The actual percentage is likely lower, as I had to make some assumptions. In any case, I'm underwhelmed by the results...it does not pass the cost/benefit analysis by a long shot.

ldivinag
10-13-2009, 1:19 AM
3.2%?!?

3.2???????????


sigh...

Kestryll
10-14-2009, 11:27 AM
One warning.

We do NOT condone nor allow discussion regarding harming public officials.

If you want to have that kind of discussion take it elsewhere or have your account closed.

This is not open to debate or discussion.

DTOM CA!
10-14-2009, 11:28 AM
I think the best way to get people to side with us is to take them shooting at the range. If everyone realized how much fun it is it would be a non issue. I would like to know what the cost and or man hours for the police was to get the 3%+- of these criminals. Is that the best use of there limited resources ?

bomb_on_bus
10-14-2009, 12:38 PM
No if only there were some way to remove the human factor from the equation then this bill might actually work............... oh wait a minute.

darkwater
10-14-2009, 1:20 PM
I think the best way to get people to side with us is to take them shooting at the range. If everyone realized how much fun it is it would be a non issue. I would like to know what the cost and or man hours for the police was to get the 3%+- of these criminals. Is that the best use of there limited resources ?

Realize that this 3% figure they are throwing around includes ALL ammunition sales (handgun, shotgun, rifle) because the city ordinances are more inclusive than AB962, which requires only handgun ammunition sales be recorded, so this percentage is going to be less under AB962. Plus, of the 3% they "caught", not all were charged or even convicted...see my previous post in this thread.

tiki
10-14-2009, 1:27 PM
Is this true? Given the source I am certain this info is spun dramatically. Does anyone have real information about this?


It's funny. I was at the Sacramento public hearing, the one where people talk and nobody listens, and the council asked the chief if there were any arrests in L.A. as a result of the ordinance and seem to remember him saying no.
I also love the fact that AB962 was the Brady's top priority this year. So, when it gets repealed, i'm going to send them a nice FAIL letter.

1923mack
10-14-2009, 1:49 PM
In the FFL forum one of the dealers was unhappy that of all the rejected firearms application forms (prohibited person trying to buy a handgun) he had, the California DOJ had prosecuted zero. If they will not prosecute a convicted felon from trying to purchase a handgun do you think they are going to prosecute someone for buying a box of 9mm?

smallshot13
10-14-2009, 2:17 PM
So, 74 apparent restricted person sales equivalent to 3.2% of total sales. That would mean 2,313 total ammunition sales in the City of Sacramento during approximately 9 months in 2008. I have had a difficult time finding any ammunition vendors in the City limits at all in 2009. It seems that the ordinance most significant impact is substantially constraining sales of ammunition within the City limits. If anyone knows of a vendor that sells ammunition within the City limits, it would be a public service to post here as a reply. That way we can complete the statistical verification of the report. That is the exact concern expressed over the impacts of AB 962. Knowing exactly how many vendors there are in Sacramento City Limits is absolutely necessary information for Calguns to complete their understanding of the probable impacts of 962 on a state wide basis.

SAN compnerd
10-14-2009, 8:35 PM
Sad as it is, these numbers published by the Brady bunch are the exact reason why Arnie passed this trash. Look at his comments on the bills passage where he notes the positive effect this law has had in sacto. Too bad he doesnt know the facts. Too bad he listens to the special interests rather than paying attention to the calls, letters, and faxes from the public but I guess thats politics.:(

darkwater
10-14-2009, 9:12 PM
Sad as it is, these numbers published by the Brady bunch are the exact reason why Arnie passed this trash. Look at his comments on the bills passage where he notes the positive effect this law has had in sacto. Too bad he doesnt know the facts. Too bad he listens to the special interests rather than paying attention to the calls, letters, and faxes from the public but I guess thats politics.:(

Yes, it is sad that Arnie fell into their web of deceit, because the Sacramento program is nothing like AB962. The Sacramento program required all ammo purchases to be subject to the requirements, but the big kicker is that the Sacramento program required information to be electronically forwarded to the police within 5 days of the purchase, which makes catching criminals more effective! AB962 only requires ammunition vendors to keep the records on file at their business for 5 years and would only be useful if the police are actively conducting an investigation...no one would be actively scanning all purchases to detect if a prohibited person is buying handgun ammunition. The Sacramento program is very proactive, AB962 is not, so it will be totally ineffective in comparison! (Now, don't give them this idea when we go to argue that AB962 should be shot down...don't want to give them any bright ideas on how to improve it.)