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C Hawk
10-12-2009, 8:03 AM
I just built a lower (.223) and ordered a DPMS complete upper. In the DPMS paperwork, they state "the use of re-loaded ammunition voids the factory warranty" Then they also state: "We have incurred problems with the following: A) Foreign Ammunition" then they go on referencing bullet contour and cartridge length. I am reloading using Dillon equipment and proper powders, brass and lead, all to the specified tolerances of multiple manuals. I will not over charge any cartridge.
Should I send the upper back or will I have any problems?

Thanks for any input!:nopity:

pdq_wizzard
10-12-2009, 8:21 AM
This is a CYA on there part, I would bet if you read any paper work that comes with a new gun it will have something in there about re-loaded ammo.

uxo2
10-12-2009, 8:23 AM
All manufactures have the same warning

5hundo
10-12-2009, 8:59 AM
The "reloads" thing is definitely CYA on behalf of DPMS. They're not going to take that chance...

On the foreign ammo issue, I would avoid anything that doesn't use a brass case, on a DPMS upper. They just don't feed well with steel cases and it makes shooting a "chore" because every 3rd or 4th round is a case that failed to eject. It's just not worth it...

EBR Works
10-12-2009, 9:23 AM
They do this because of situations like I observed last month. An unnamed CalGunner who claims to have been reloading for 25+ years accidentally confused 4198 powder with 4895 powder. He loaded one of these rounds into a brand new .308 AR and destroyed the gun on the first shot. He said he was going to send it back to the factory for repair under warranty even though they have this same disclaimer. Good luck!

sspen003
10-12-2009, 9:38 AM
My DPMS loves wolf and brown bear

5hundo
10-12-2009, 9:41 AM
They do this because of situations like I observed last month. An unnamed CalGunner who claims to have been reloading for 25+ years accidentally confused 4198 powder with 4895 powder. He loaded one of these rounds into a brand new .308 AR and destroyed the gun on the first shot. He said he was going to send it back to the factory for repair under warranty even though they have this same disclaimer. Good luck!

That's an easy mistake to make...

I knew a guy that did something similar with 4064 and 4895. Luckily, he was on the other end of the spectrum and was saying "these loads are weak" but still, very dangerous...

I only ever use one of any type of powder like that. So, as far as rifle powders, I only have IMR 4064 and Hogdon 380. Very hard to mix those two up...

My DPMS loves wolf and brown bear

Maybe it's just the bull barrels that have issues. My 24" SS Bull Barrel won't take it and my Brother's 20" is just as bad.

Is yours a tactical syle upper or a heavy barreled model?

C Hawk
10-12-2009, 10:23 AM
It is the 24" bull barrel.

5hundo
10-12-2009, 10:48 AM
It is the 24" bull barrel.

Don't shoot steel cases...

The just don't feed well. I'm not sure I'd go so far as to call them "unsafe" but it definitely is unenjoyable to have to clear jams every 3rd or 4th shot...

sspen003
10-12-2009, 11:09 AM
Would any of thse problems be fixed by chaging the extractor or possibly the entire bolt? Or is this problem caused by the feed/ramp/tolerances?

5hundo
10-12-2009, 11:20 AM
Would any of thse problems be fixed by chaging the extractor or possibly the entire bolt? Or is this problem caused by the feed/ramp/tolerances?

Anytime you change the bolt, barrel or upper receiver, you need to check the headspace again. Changing the extractor on the same bolt would not require a headspace check. In fact, when you check headspace on a rifle, you need to remove the extractor from the bolt.

In the case of the DPMS uppers, I don't know why they have issues with the steel cases. Perhaps the chambers aren't smooth enough. You could try polishing it with some automotive rubbing compound, followed by some polishing compound or toothpaste and see if that helps. Personally, I don't see the point of using cheap, steel-cased ammo on my 24" bull barrel rifle but some others might...

My BWK-92 does fine with wolf. It double-ejects more than it does with brass, but it does okay...

sspen003
10-12-2009, 11:29 AM
Anytime you change the bolt, barrel or upper receiver, you need to check the headspace again. Changing the extractor on the same bolt would not require a headspace check. In fact, when you check headspace on a rifle, you need to remove the extractor from the bolt.

In the case of the DPMS uppers, I don't know why they have issues with the steel cases. Perhaps the chambers aren't smooth enough. You could try polishing it with some automotive rubbing compound, followed by some polishing compound or toothpaste and see if that helps. Personally, I don't see the point of using cheap, steel-cased ammo on my 24" bull barrel rifle but some others might...

My BWK-92 does fine with wolf. It double-ejects more than it does with brass, but it does okay...

Thanks for the words of wisdom. I have this beleif that an AR 15 is idiot proof but I guess not.

If the ammo is just for plinking it shouldnt really make a difference. If you were using it for a match or HD then buy some fancy brass cased stuff. This only applies to the guys that dont reload.

How hard is it to headspace an AR? Do they use GO and NO-GO gauges?
I have been looking at getting a new bolt for a while to improve reliability.

ciscollector
10-12-2009, 12:09 PM
Welcome to Calguns C Hawk! I knew you could find some decent opinions here on your new upper. Check your PMs.

Dr. Peter Venkman
10-12-2009, 12:21 PM
Steel cased is going to leave for fouling in the chamber due to the steel not expanding as quickly as a brass casing would during firing. Whether that is bad ju ju for your AR or not depends on your build. A few guys like to follow the adage: "If it can't shoot wolf, it's not worthy."

ar15barrels
10-13-2009, 1:44 AM
An unnamed CalGunner who claims to have been reloading for 25+ years accidentally confused 4198 powder with 4895 powder.

Please pm me this person's name.

5hundo
10-14-2009, 3:40 PM
Thanks for the words of wisdom. I have this beleif that an AR 15 is idiot proof but I guess not.

If the ammo is just for plinking it shouldnt really make a difference. If you were using it for a match or HD then buy some fancy brass cased stuff. This only applies to the guys that dont reload.

How hard is it to headspace an AR? Do they use GO and NO-GO gauges?
I have been looking at getting a new bolt for a while to improve reliability.

Not terribly hard...

Yes, you use Go/No-Go gauges, which you can get from Midway, brownells, or sometimes Cabellas. Like I said, you will need to remove the Extractor (and the ejector). The can interfere with the measurement and cause false readings. Here's a vid that will help with disassembly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0J_zvWEnzw

The bolt should close fully on a "Go" gauge, and it should not fully close on a "No-go" gauge. If it closes fully on a "No-Go" gauge, you're rifle might not be safe to shoot. However, there is also a "field gauge", which if the bolt does not close on, your rifle still might be safe to shoot.

If your rifle closes on a "No-go" but doesn't close on a Field gauge, I'd contact a gunsmith anyway, but that's just me...

sspen003
10-14-2009, 4:06 PM
Not terribly hard...

Yes, you use Go/No-Go gauges, which you can get from Midway, brownells, or sometimes Cabellas. Like I said, you will need to remove the Extractor (and the ejector). The can interfere with the measurement and cause false readings. Here's a vid that will help with disassembly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0J_zvWEnzw

The bolt should close fully on a "Go" gauge, and it should not fully close on a "No-go" gauge. If it closes fully on a "No-Go" gauge, you're rifle might not be safe to shoot. However, there is also a "field gauge", which if the bolt does not close on, your rifle still might be safe to shoot.

If your rifle closes on a "No-go" but doesn't close on a Field gauge, I'd contact a gunsmith anyway, but that's just me...

Thanks for the info 5hundo.

Would the adjustment of the headspace require moving the barrel? or would it require bolt modification?

WeekendWarrior
10-14-2009, 4:14 PM
WWRTW

mif_slim
10-14-2009, 4:26 PM
Well if thats the case then my 16" AR DPMS warranty was due some 6000 rounds ago! Darn it!:)

johnrunner89
10-14-2009, 4:33 PM
Why do companies fear reloads so much?

reidnez
10-14-2009, 4:41 PM
Why do companies fear reloads so much?

Because they have no control over the specs of that reload. It could be good-to-go, it could be a little barrel bomb. Their products are designed/tested to SAAMI specs, which means they are safe with SAAMI-spec ammunition. Not Bubba-spec ammunition.

sspen003
10-14-2009, 4:43 PM
Why do companies fear reloads so much?

Same reason car companies always lie about gas mileage

5hundo
10-14-2009, 4:44 PM
Thanks for the info 5hundo.

Would the adjustment of the headspace require moving the barrel? or would it require bolt modification?

Depending on whether it's too tight, too loose and what the specific problem is, either part (or both parts, for that matter) might need to be modified.

Honestly, whenever I come across a problem like that, I usually try a few different parts, to see if I can localize the issue to either the bolt, or the barrel. So, if I get a headspace that's too tight, I'll try the bolt from my other AR and see if it still binds on a Go gauge. Once you know where the problem is, you can decide how to deal with it.

More often than not, it's easier to just try another part. I've only had that happen to me on one build and I tried a different bolt, which turned out to headspace fine. So, at that point, I just exchanged that bolt for another one, which worked out...

If you're absolutely dead-set on using the exact bolt and exact barrel that you have, I'd ask Randall how to proceed. I'm sure they can be lapped into place, if need be, but I have no experience with that.

ar15barrels
10-14-2009, 5:53 PM
The bolt should close fully on a "Go" gauge, and it should not fully close on a "No-go" gauge. If it closes fully on a "No-Go" gauge, you're rifle might not be safe to shoot. However, there is also a "field gauge", which if the bolt does not close on, your rifle still might be safe to shoot.

If your rifle closes on a "No-go" but doesn't close on a Field gauge, I'd contact a gunsmith anyway, but that's just me...

"go and "no-g0" are for NEW unfired guns.
"Field" is for used guns.
"field" is the absolute wear limit where a gun starts to be considered unsafe.
It's not acceptable for a NEW gun to close on a "no-go", but it is acceptable for a used gun to close on a "no-go".
This is because "no-go" is almost always half-way between "go" and "field".
The only gauge you really need to use to check headspace wear on used guns is a "field" gauge.

ar15barrels
10-14-2009, 5:54 PM
Would the adjustment of the headspace require moving the barrel? or would it require bolt modification?

If an AR fails a headspace check, you first replace the bolt (cheaper/easier part to swap) and if it still fails, you replace the barrel.
There is no provision to "adjust" headspace in the AR design.

ar15barrels
10-14-2009, 5:56 PM
Same reason car companies always lie about gas mileage

Because they can.

stix213
10-14-2009, 6:10 PM
Why do companies fear reloads so much?

Two reasons:
1) If an incorrect load can damage the rifle, then the manufacturer doesn't want to be responsible for the warranty in that scenario
2) When somebody uses triple the powder and the rifle explodes in the user's face, the manufacturer could be liable for millions of $$$ in medical bills and the all important extra millions for "pain and suffering." Since the manufacturer would be risking millions $$$ for each and every rifle they ever sell, that is just too much of a liability unless you want your AR to cost you $50,000 to cover their legal expenses too :)

Easier to just say not to use them, then if you injure or kill yourself with incorrect loads it is your own damn fault.

Unfortunately the sue happy ambulance chasers are to blame here.

missiontrails
10-14-2009, 6:14 PM
My CMMG manual states that shooting Wolf voids the warranty. What kind of damage can Wolf steel cased ammo do to the rifle?

mif_slim
10-14-2009, 6:17 PM
Originally Posted by johnrunner89
Why do companies fear reloads so much?

KABOOM!!

johnrunner89
10-14-2009, 6:52 PM
Ahh I see...thanks. That why I never put the max load of powder in to be safe. Use a couple grains less to avoid a bigger mess :P

Addax
10-14-2009, 7:03 PM
KABOOM!!

Yup...

That pretty much sums it up.

swerv512
10-14-2009, 8:33 PM
Ahh I see...thanks. That why I never put the max load of powder in to be safe. Use a couple grains less to avoid a bigger mess :P

Depends on what reference source you're using. One manual may say one thing, while another may contradict the first manual. the important thing is to safely reload- if you dont know how, it is best to always use less than so-called max load. otherwise any reasonable person can see signs over overpressure or other types of phenomena that can cause:

KABOOM!

railroader
10-14-2009, 9:20 PM
My CMMG manual states that shooting Wolf voids the warranty. What kind of damage can Wolf steel cased ammo do to the rifle?

That is probably that some rifles will run fine with brass case ammo but will have fits with steel case ammo. The rifle companies don't want the customers calling them up with extraction problems expecting the rifles to be fixed under warranty. My stepson had a bushmaster like that, wouldn't run with wolf ammo. Mark

unclejesse
10-14-2009, 10:11 PM
It is the 24" bull barrel.

mine eats wolf all day :43:

sspen003
10-14-2009, 11:00 PM
Wolf eats Sheep
DPMS eats Wolf

reidnez
10-15-2009, 8:55 AM
My CMMG manual states that shooting Wolf voids the warranty. What kind of damage can Wolf steel cased ammo do to the rifle?

I think they are mostly warning against using lacquer-coated stuff, which you don't find as much these days. The lacquer can gunk up your chamber and cause extraction problems. Easily cured with a chamber brush, a power drill, and some solvent, however.

EBR Works
10-15-2009, 9:13 AM
Please pm me this person's name.

PM sent

Solidsnake87
10-15-2009, 10:48 AM
All manufactures have the same warning

Exactly!