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View Full Version : 1st range trip with LWRC M6A2


secretasianman
10-11-2009, 6:41 PM
Went to Sac Valley today with buddy. Great shooting weather today!

I have 1000 rds of M855 (forgot where manufactured)... They won't cycle my M6A2 properly. I don't think the bolt carrier travels back far enough (past the cartridge rim) to then strip a round off the mags on it's way forward. Happened with 7 different mags.

My friends also brand new M6A2 cycled these rounds fine. I tried his M193 rounds and they cycled fine through my rifle.

Any thoughts or suggestions? It's kinda disappointing that it's not eating M855 rounds.

Sunshine
10-11-2009, 7:45 PM
Did you run it dry or was it lubed?

secretasianman
10-11-2009, 7:55 PM
Ummm... It was lubed. I didn't personally lube it... it came lubed... (or I hope it was lube!).:eek: My buddy's was like that too.

I did do a routine maintenance teardown and inspected the upper assembly and the buffer springs. There was definitely some sort of lube on the components.

I'm planning on heading back out there this next Saturday and try a different batch of M855 (labeled LC 06).

Vinz
10-11-2009, 7:56 PM
lube that baby up man. Yes, pour it on. LOL

vinz

Sunshine
10-11-2009, 8:04 PM
ah, I read over the part about the M193 working fine in your gun. If it was just lube I'd think both should work fine.

NSR500
10-11-2009, 8:28 PM
Try a lighter buffer? I think LWRCI ships with H2, so try a standard H.

Aftermath686
10-11-2009, 8:58 PM
Technically you don't need lube with the LWRC. It doesn't hurt though and I use it on mine to slow down wear, but I don't think that's the problem here. I would think it is bad ammo. Did you buy the complete rifle or just the upper. And what exactly is going on. So it fires, then ejects but does not chamber the next round? the bolt slams home on an empty chamber??? Did you change any parts out such as buffer or buffer spring? Also what mags are you using?

RECCE556
10-11-2009, 9:00 PM
Lubed? According to piston guys, piston guns don't need lube, remember? :rolleyes:

Like NSR500 said, try a standard H buffer and also, what kind of buffer spring do you have? The extra power buffer springs tend to cause short stroking problems even with the lightest carbine buffer.

Is there a way to adjust the piston's gas setting? Maybe you have it on suppressor mode (which limits the amount of gas which would cause short stroking on a un-canned gun).

missiontrails
10-11-2009, 9:02 PM
Lubed? According to piston guys, piston guns don't need lube, remember? :rolleyes:

Like NSR500 said, try a standard H buffer and also, what kind of buffer spring do you have? The extra power buffer springs tend to cause short stroking problems even with the lightest carbine buffer.

Is there a way to adjust the piston's gas setting? Maybe you have it on suppressor mode (which limits the amount of gas which would cause short stroking on a un-canned gun).

I was just thinking that, suppressor setting? Those carriers are one piece, aren't they?

RECCE556
10-11-2009, 9:03 PM
Those carriers are one piece, aren't they?
Not sure, I'm not a fan of "fix a problem that doesn't exist" piston guns. :)

missiontrails
10-11-2009, 9:08 PM
Not sure, I'm not a fan of "fix a problem that doesn't exist" piston guns. :)

Ya, just trying to rule out gas key leak.

RECCE556
10-11-2009, 9:10 PM
Ya, just trying to rule out gas key leak.
The LWRC's are piston guns. No gas to leak at the carrier key. He could have an overly small gas port on the barrel however which might be causing not enough gas to cycle the piston system.

My guess is that it's just on the suppressor setting.

Vinz
10-11-2009, 9:13 PM
Lubed? According to piston guys, piston guns don't need lube, remember? :rolleyes:



Is it cleaning or lube. Im sure all components with metal to metal contact requires lubing. I don't think the assemble lube would be effective enough esp during a break in period.

I had similiar issues with a friends rifle and lubing the BCG took care of that situation.

Try easy before you get too involved with disassembly and parts replacement. And yes, check your settings.
Vinz

RECCE556
10-11-2009, 9:17 PM
Im sure all components with metal to metal contact requires lubing. I don't think the assemble lube would be effective enough esp during a break in period.
No, I FULLY agree with you. I'm just making fun on the idiots who think just because a gun is a piston gun, that it's somehow mechanically "magical" and doesn't require any lube whatsoever. Anything that is metal to metal should have lube IMO.

The suppressor setting isn't anything complicated. It should just require turning a knob or flipping a switch. I would check that first. Getting back to lube, put some grease on the bolt carrier rails. Piston gun or not.

NSR500
10-11-2009, 9:19 PM
I have an LWRC upper too and I run it with a "Light Coating" of lube. It can have all the fancy coatings it has, but the way I see it, a little lube can't hurt.

4thSeal
10-11-2009, 9:26 PM
A LWRC M6A2 does not have gas block settings...

The stuff that comes on the LWRC is not a lube but a preservative, that is why they give you the bottle of SLIP 2000 EWL ... anytime you get a new weapon you should break it down do cleaning job on it and lube it up.

One piece BCG is very nice... I have one on my M6A3... I have no information that they are getting into the M6A2s yet... though you can buy upgraded BCG kit.

As far as fixing a problem that does not exist comment... ???? There is nothing wrong with making a product better. They did not come out and say look standard BCGs are POS you must upgrade now or your gun will fail... they just made a better better design. Even if a two piece BCG has never failed (which they have) a one piece is still a better design.

metal to metal pieces that move and cause friction should get some sort of lube...

secretasianman
10-11-2009, 9:42 PM
A LWRC M6A2 does not have gas block settings...

The stuff that comes on the LWRC is not a lube but a preservative, that is why they give you the bottle of SLIP 2000 EWL ... anytime you get a new weapon you should break it down do cleaning job on it and lube it up.

The odd thing about the situation: My friend's brand new M6A2 ate up my ammo just fine. He didn't lube it up either. We both thought they were already lubed.

I'm hoping that's the problem. Why do they not ship these complete rifles lubed? Can't be cost since they ship it with a bottle of SLIP 2000 EWL.

NSR500
10-11-2009, 9:50 PM
The odd thing about the situation: My friend's brand new M6A2 ate up my ammo just fine. He didn't lube it up either. We both thought they were already lubed.

I'm hoping that's the problem. Why do they not ship these complete rifles lubed? Can't be cost since they ship it with a bottle of SLIP 2000 EWL.

When I first got my M6 I had issues with the first 25rds of Guatemalan surplus I fired. Every round after those 25 have been perfect with zero failures. Maybe it just needs a break in period, but it also can't hurt to try a lighter buffer.

4thSeal
10-11-2009, 9:50 PM
a mfg does not know how long a rifle is going to be sitting around at a retailer it sells to... it is better to have a long lasting protectant on it. When I got my M6A3 I didnt assume the stuff coating it was a lubericant, i assumed it was a protectant. Cleaned internals and chamber, patched the barrel, lubed w/ SLIP and went shooting.

Aftermath686
10-11-2009, 9:51 PM
Fixing a problem that does not exist... The problem is carbon build up... The other problem is people talking right out of their *** on products they have never tried and probably don't understand. Anyways contact LWRC if you can't find the solution. There customer service is impeccable. Good luck.

RECCE556
10-11-2009, 9:51 PM
As far as fixing a problem that does not exist comment... ???? There is nothing wrong with making a product better. They did not come out and say look standard BCGs are POS you must upgrade now or your gun will fail... they just made a better better design. Even if a two piece BCG has never failed (which they have) a one piece is still a better design.
My comment was in regards to whether or not a "bandage" piston setup is "better" than DI (not about one vs. two piece BCG...that's a whole 'nother argument). A lot of people are buying into the "marketing" that DI guns are bad and that piston guns solve all the problems of the AR platform. The truth of the matter is, if you look at any TRUE piston gun (AK, SIG 556, AUG's, etc.), you'll see that the carrier ALWAYS rides on rails or guides...not "skids". The current batch of AR piston gun causes other problems (carrier tilt, extra stress on the bolt lugs, etc.)...they "solved" one "problem" but introduced others and many will argue that the "problem" pistons solved wasn't really a problem in the first place. All the piston AR's that are out right now are ALL compromised designs.

Getting back to the OP's problem, if the LWRC'd don't have a suppressor setting, then I would make sure you don't have a extra power buffer spring. I've found that these cause short stroking much more so than a heavy buffer. If that's not the problem, then you might have something partially blocking the gas port or your gas port is the wrong size. Also, maybe your piston or rod is binding in some manner or the BCG is binding. The BCG binding should be easily solvable by just pulling back on the charging handle...it's it overly difficult? Since you have access to another LWRC, try pulling the CH back on that one and compare. Also, just for S&G, try swapping uppers and see if that makes a difference...that will at least rule out the upper itself.

RECCE556
10-11-2009, 9:54 PM
Fixing a problem that does not exist... The problem is carbon build up... The other problem is people talking right out of their *** on products they have never tried and probably don't understand. Anyways contact LWRC if you can't find the solution. There customer service is impeccable. Good luck.
Really? Carbon build up is the problem? That's funny, I have a M4 which is undergoing torture testing that has over 9K rounds on it without a single cleaning of any sort...yet it still runs. Carbon build up doesn't seem to be a problem.

Maybe you need stop talking out of your *** on something you don't clearly understand.

secretasianman
10-11-2009, 9:58 PM
The BCG binding should be easily solvable by just pulling back on the charging handle...it's it overly difficult? Since you have access to another LWRC, try pulling the CH back on that one and compare. Also, just for S&G, try swapping uppers and see if that makes a difference...that will at least rule out the upper itself.

Pulling back on the charging handle wasn't difficult. They both felt the same. I may have to offer to clean my buddy's rifle and swap the buffer springs... :43:

RECCE556
10-11-2009, 10:01 PM
Pulling back on the charging handle wasn't difficult. They both felt the same. I may have to offer to clean my buddy's rifle and swap the buffer springs... :43:
Try swapping the uppers first. This will determine if the upper itself is the problem. If his upper on your lower will shot M855 just fine, then your upper is the problem. If your upper on his lower shoots M855 ok, then it's something with your lower...buffer spring...maybe something with the hammer that causing drag on the carrier, etc...

45R
10-11-2009, 10:03 PM
Clean it out really good and lube it well. The only complaint I have about my M6A2 is that it doesn't cycle as nice as my Noveske, however I have more rounds through the N4 than the M6A2. I even put a drop or two of lube on the buffer spring. Works great for my guns. Keep us posted!

secretasianman
10-11-2009, 10:03 PM
Thanks for everyone's suggestions. I didn't know what the term was... but I guess it is "short-stroking": The bolt carrier group isn't being pushed far enough back.

I will definitely clean and lube the rifle up before the next range trip. I'm sure swapping out the buffer spring (or swapping uppers may be easier) won't be a problem either.

professorhard
10-11-2009, 10:09 PM
Really? Carbon build up is the problem? That's funny, I have a M4 which is undergoing torture testing that has over 9K rounds on it without a single cleaning of any sort...yet it still runs. Carbon build up doesn't seem to be a problem.

Do you still lube it up or are you going all out and just leaving it alone? If so that's pretty awesome and makes me have more faith in the DI design.

Aftermath686
10-11-2009, 10:31 PM
Really? Carbon build up is the problem? That's funny, I have a M4 which is undergoing torture testing that has over 9K rounds on it without a single cleaning of any sort...yet it still runs. Carbon build up doesn't seem to be a problem.

Maybe you need stop talking out of your *** on something you don't clearly understand.

Yes carbon build up is a problem. And believe me, between shooting DI and piston guns on my own time, and my m4 in the Marine Corps. I completely understand the issue at hand. If there's one thing I hate, its weapons maintenance. Also that is incredible that your DI gun has run through 9k rounds and is still going strong, but that is one case. Just because yours has does not mean everyones DI gun will.

RECCE556
10-11-2009, 10:55 PM
Do you still lube it up or are you going all out and just leaving it alone? If so that's pretty awesome and makes me have more faith in the DI design.
DI AR's will stop FOR SURE without lube. No question there. So yes, I lube it using my secret lube...Mobil1 Automatic Transmission Fluid. I lube it usually once or twice during a 3-day carbine course...sometimes a little more if it's a high round count type deal. I lube on carrier skids and inside the carrier port holes. I'm sure that most military trained guys would probably cringe at the amount of lube I put in which isn't excessive, just more than what most military trained guys are trained to use. Most of those guys are mistakenly taught to "lube sparingly so that you don't attract debris"...in a gun that barfs on itself anyways...you're getting debris whether you want it or not, with or without lube...but with lube, everything keeps working. AR's run better wet, period.

Yes carbon build up is a problem....Just because yours has does not mean everyones DI gun will.
Ok, so where do the see the problem with carbon build-up that happens on a DI AR and not on a Piston AR? I want to check on my shoot-to-destruction AR to see why it hasn't been an issue. I too hate cleaning which is why I decided to do this destruction test. Unfortunately, a lot of my other guns are unintentionally getting the same treatment...I still have yet to clean a few of my handguns (some of which have seen 2K to 4K rounds)...I think the only gun I cleaned in recent memory is my PSS....

And just because a gun is a piston gun doesn't it mean it'll work right either. Piston conversions introduce their own issues and pistons have more moving parts and therefore, more points of failure. That all aside, the point I'm making is that DI guns are not automatically "problematic" as lot of piston fanboys would have people believe. The problem guns that I've seen have been due to the fact that they were POS guns (DPMS, Olympic, Stag, etc.), not because they were DI. I have seen a lot of well used/abused AR's that still run great.

secretasianman
10-11-2009, 11:04 PM
The problem guns that I've seen have been due to the fact that they were POS guns (DPMS, Olympic, Stag, etc.), not because they were DI. I have seen a lot of well used/abused AR's that still run great.
Uh... so what are the better DI guns?

Or should I have not asked?

RECCE556
10-11-2009, 11:22 PM
Uh... so what are the better DI guns?
Or should I have not asked?
Hehe, you shouldn't have asked! There are LOT of opinions about what is good and bad that there is no true "one brand" answer IMO...BUT, if I had to pick one brand to use as a "base" gun, would pick a Colt 6920 (for a CA version, I would get a 6920 upper and any decent OLL for the lower with a RRA LPK and a good stock like Vltor/LMT/Magpul). However, I never buy "complete" guns as I build all my own AR using various quality parts (Colt, Daniel Defense, Vltor, Magpul, etc.) I also don't considering any one brand the "best" at everything. I see a variety of guns in the carbine classes...the only ones I see break are the "hobby" brands (DPMS, CMMG, Stag/CMT, RRA, Olympic, Bushmaster, etc.) but that's not to say that all "hobby" brands break...they don't...but when something does break, they tend to be the "hobby" brands...

secretasianman
10-17-2009, 5:18 PM
Got back from my second range trip with the M6A2.

MUCH BETTER!!!

Took it apart, cleaned, and lubed: Gas piston and rods, bolt carrier group, buffer tube and spring. I had two short strokes with the old M855 (stamped RORG 89) but no problems with the newer M855 (stamped LC 06) and the Centurion stuff from AIMsurplus.

The buffer (bolt?) had what appeared to be tape on the edge, the spring was dry, and the tube walls were pretty dirty. I'm thinking that may have been the problem.

Whatever I have left of the RORG 89 M855 ammo is probably going to feed the mini-14. I put about 40 rounds of the newer stuff through with no problems and ~60 rounds of the old M855 through with 2 short strokes. Considerably better than the short stroke each round from last weekend. I'd feel better in regards to reliably after 500 rounds.

Linh
10-17-2009, 5:28 PM
Sweet I'm savin for LWRC M6A2-S.

The REPR is also freakin nice