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View Full Version : There's Hope (Sun 11th)! Little Chance of Water Resolution


xm177
10-11-2009, 10:11 AM
The governor needs to man up and keep to his word. Here's an article from the LA Times this morning talking about the status of the water resolution:

California lawmakers in stalemate over state water plan
The legislators have only hours to strike a deal that would head off the governor's threat to veto hundreds of unrelated bills.

Reporting from Sacramento - State legislative leaders remained stalemated Saturday over proposals to improve California's water supply, leaving little more than 24 hours to strike a deal that would convince Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger not to carry out his threat to veto many of the 704 unrelated bills on his desk.

Democratic and Republican leaders emerged from a three-hour meeting with the governor and acknowledged that they remain divided on issues including the size of a water bond measure, protections for existing water rights and proposals to force water conservation. They plan to resume the closed-door negotiations Sunday morning.

"Sadly, there was little in the way of progress," said Assembly Minority Leader Sam Blakeslee (R-San Luis Obispo). "We as Senate and Assembly Republicans put forward a number of alternative proposals, solutions to deal with defects in what is frankly a very bad bill right now.. At this time none of them have been accepted."

Senate President Pro Tem Darrell Steinberg (D-Sacramento) acknowledged that "there may not be this big handshake" deal before the midnight Sunday deadline to veto bills.

CABilly
10-11-2009, 10:19 AM
Does the CA governor, like the POTUS, have to go through each bill and say what he wants changed, then send them all back to the legislature? Or can he just kill them dead?

RP1911
10-11-2009, 10:27 AM
He probably has 4 distinct piles of bills.

1) veto with standard veto message
2) veto with bill specific language
3) bills to sign
4) bills to become law without his signature

Blackhawk556
10-11-2009, 10:37 AM
I thought I read that the threat of mass veto was not true??? I read one of his top advisers said it was false and he would not do that. Does anyone have more info on this?

Today is the last day right?

Legasat
10-11-2009, 10:44 AM
He is a proven political wimp. I don't think he will veto anything, though I hope I am wrong.

froman118
10-11-2009, 10:47 AM
This page is either going to make my day or ruin my day tomorrow:

http://info.sen.ca.gov/cgi-bin/postquery?bill_number=ab_962&sess=CUR&house=B&site=sen

GrizzlyGuy
10-11-2009, 10:50 AM
I thought I read that the threat of mass veto was not true??? I read one of his top advisers said it was false and he would not do that. Does anyone have more info on this?

It's not a rumor, Arnold tweeted this himself on Thursday:

"Water is biggest crisis facing CA. 40% unemplymt in Cent Val. Delta close to collapse. Leg must deliver water Friday or see lots of vetoes."

http://twitter.com/Schwarzenegger

M198
10-11-2009, 11:07 AM
Anyone know if there is a bill worth signing in that stack? Somehow, I doubt it.

bodger
10-11-2009, 11:09 AM
It's not a rumor, Arnold tweeted this himself on Thursday:

"Water is biggest crisis facing CA. 40% unemplymt in Cent Val. Delta close to collapse. Leg must deliver water Friday or see lots of vetoes."

http://twitter.com/Schwarzenegger

Jeez, what a bunch of flip-flopping. I heard one of his spokespeople sepecifically deny this just a few days ago. He said it just was not true and the the Governor would be acting irresponsibly toward the other legislation if he were to actually follow through with what was rumored.

I just hope he makes up his mind and veotes 962 right outta there.

When that happens, should we send condolence messages to DeLeon?

rob
10-11-2009, 11:09 AM
Schwarzenegger should do like the bad guys on tv do:

if you do not have a resolution to this problem by Wednesday, I will start vetoing 10 bills per hour until there is a resolution or I am out of bills to veto.

GrizzlyGuy
10-11-2009, 11:15 AM
Jeez, what a bunch of flip-flopping. I heard one of his spokespeople sepecifically deny this just a few days ago. He said it just was not true and the the Governor would be acting irresponsibly toward the other legislation if he were to actually follow through with what was rumored.

Yeah, the Friday deadline that he tweeted about has since passed, so maybe Arnold was just blustering/posturing and his aides now have it right(?).

Old joke:

Q: How do you tell if a politician is lying?
A: His lips are moving.

In modern times, I guess that 'his fingers are tweeting' would be another answer to that one. :rolleyes:

bwiese
10-11-2009, 11:27 AM
Folks,

You shoulld not just hope the water matters kill all bills.

Let's hope 962 and 585 are dead on their own intrinsic nonmerits.

hoffmang
10-11-2009, 11:30 AM
Anyone know if there is a bill worth signing in that stack? Somehow, I doubt it.

There is one. There is a bunch of Federal money for schools available if the state allows teacher performance to be tied in at least some way to test scores. He'll sign that or let it pass unsigned to get the federal dollars.

-Gene

Afmo
10-11-2009, 11:31 AM
Folks,

You shoulld not just hope the water matters kill all bills.

Let's hope 962 and 585 are dead on their own intrinsic nonmerits.

yeah, but when you're in the final hours, is it really worth fretting over the how?

vetoed is vetoed IMO.

advocatusdiaboli
10-11-2009, 11:45 AM
Leg must deliver water Friday or see lots of vetoes

If the governor really tweeted that, then it is already over for the bill. because it's now Sunday and they still don't have resolution--provided the governor keeps his word or rather "tweet". I personally think he will.

advocatusdiaboli
10-11-2009, 11:49 AM
You shoulld not just hope the water matters kill all bills.
Let's hope 962 and 585 are dead on their own intrinsic nonmerits.

I think most of us "get" that but since he's been silent and we are on the edge of our seats we are using the water brinksmanship as a proxy for our hope.

Phil3
10-11-2009, 2:31 PM
Meeting on water this morning did not work out. Governor and legislators are meeting again this afternoon, according to news sources. - Phil

gunsnrovers
10-11-2009, 2:50 PM
California leaders try again for water deal
By DON THOMPSON (Associated Press Writer)
From Associated Press
October 11, 2009 4:40 PM EDT

SACRAMENTO, Calif. - California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger and legislative leaders are trying to work out a water deal as a midnight deadline nears for the governor to act on more than 700 bills.

Schwarzenegger is delaying signing or vetoing bills from this summer's legislative session to pressure lawmakers to improve California's deteriorating and inadequate water system.

The governor and leaders met briefly Sunday morning but still have issues to work out, says governor's spokesman Mike Naple. They are scheduled to meet again Sunday afternoon.

Schwarzenegger is pushing for more reservoirs and a controversial canal to improve a water storage and conveyance system mostly built in the 1960s.

Meanwhile, Naple says no bills are moving from the governor's desk as the deadline approaches.

http://my.earthlink.net/article/us?guid=20091011/4ad16650_3ca6_1552620091011944213060

Jarrod
10-11-2009, 3:14 PM
There is one. There is a bunch of Federal money for schools available if the state allows teacher performance to be tied in at least some way to test scores. He'll sign that or let it pass unsigned to get the federal dollars.

-Gene

Don't want to highjack this thread, but I cannot let this one go unchallenged. I am a conservative, pro-2A guy who taught in the public highschools for nearly a decade. Now I teach at the college level.

Student test performance is not so much tied to teacher effectiveness, teacher skill, or teacher effort. A teacher can teach his brains out and work himself to death and get almost no response from apathetic students. 100 x 0 still equals 0.

Student test performance is directly tied to student effort, primarily student effort with homework at home, under parent supervision.

Remove that vital part of the equation, and it is like blaming a high school football coach for his team's poor performance when (a) the team members are assigned to his team randomly from the general student population without regard to interest, ability, or physical fitness, (b) the team members don't have to try out for the team, (c) they cannot be kicked off the team for lack of effort or lack of talent, (d) you cannot legally punish them if they just sit on the bench and don't get up practice. (Yup, the SCOTUS ruled teachers cannot punish students for lack of effort if they do not disrupt instruction.) :eek:

You can base my performance on student test scores if your kid (a) has to try out for my science class and (b) I have the final say if he gets in, and (c) I can dump him if he is too lazy or too dumb and you cannot appeal to have him put back in.

Why not base the parents' tax rates based upon student test performance? I'll surely go for that.

Now I have to get back to calling the Gov to opposed AB962 and SB585.

Hunt
10-11-2009, 3:17 PM
He is a proven political wimp. I don't think he will veto anything, though I hope I am wrong.

he won't do anything to damage his "progressive" oriented resume. I think we can be confident he won't act on conservative principles.

Merc1138
10-11-2009, 3:23 PM
I can say that as a highschool student in the 90's, it was a joke. Half of my highschool teachers were my mother's highschool teachers from 30 years prior, and they were old then. One in particular dozed off in class on a regular basis. I somehow can't imagine things are much different 10 years later. A large portion of the teachers are flat-out terrible. The school districts themselves love wasting money(I know every public k-12 school in my district here really needed giant scrolling LED bulletin boards :rolleyes:). Get rid of the ability for teachers to become tenured and un-fireable, and eliminate the entire local school board, and I might consider voting "yes" next time the school district asks for more money.

Meplat
10-11-2009, 4:01 PM
Student test performance is not so much tied to teacher effectiveness, teacher skill, or teacher effort.

This is absolutely false!

Everything else you said is absolutely true. To bad you had to dilute your credibility by immediately disowning any responsibility. If teachers have no influence, why not just stand a wooden indian in front of the class. Fact is there are not that many really bad teachers, and if teachers had some control over the things you mention, there would be less. there are a lot of average to good teachers and some phenomenally good and talented teachers.

My idea of education reform would be to provide everyone with an entitlement to 12 years of education. When they use it would be up to them. If they don't want to be there they will not only not learn but they will make it hard for others around them to learn. Why waist a seat on these people? boot their butts out and tell them to come back when they are ready to learn. After a few years of tasting how much fun ignorance is in the real world I would bet most would return with a self administered attitude adjustment.
:threadjacked:

Meplat
10-11-2009, 4:21 PM
If that dozing teacher told you to read this, this, and this, and be ready for a quiz and you did, and you were. You got your monies worth. If you didn't, It was your fault not his.

Waist is not the fault of teachers. It's administrators and politicians that are the culprits. Most teachers go into their own pockets from time to time for the kids. Text books are one of the biggest scams in the history of government. They are not just over priced, badly written, and replaced more often than needed, they are flat out wrong and full of propaganda.:mad:



I can say that as a highschool student in the 90's, it was a joke. Half of my highschool teachers were my mother's highschool teachers from 30 years prior, and they were old then. One in particular dozed off in class on a regular basis. I somehow can't imagine things are much different 10 years later. A large portion of the teachers are flat-out terrible. The school districts themselves love wasting money(I know every public k-12 school in my district here really needed giant scrolling LED bulletin boards :rolleyes:). Get rid of the ability for teachers to become tenured and un-fireable, and eliminate the entire local school board, and I might consider voting "yes" next time the school district asks for more money.

wildhawker
10-11-2009, 4:25 PM
We're getting a bit OT on the issue of educational waist(sic).

Swatter911
10-11-2009, 4:32 PM
Just got an email from Arnie's office, he signed three education bills a few minutes ago. SB19, SB680 and will be signing AB1130.

He's working........

POLICESTATE
10-11-2009, 4:54 PM
Just got an email from Arnie's office, he signed three education bills a few minutes ago. SB19, SB680 and will be signing AB1130.

He's working........

/sigh

vrand
10-11-2009, 5:28 PM
Schwarzenegger should do like the bad guys on tv do:

if you do not have a resolution to this problem by Wednesday, I will start vetoing 10 bills per hour until there is a resolution or I am out of bills to veto.

:cheers2:

Surefire
10-11-2009, 5:46 PM
yeah, but when you're in the final hours, is it really worth fretting over the how?

vetoed is vetoed IMO.

I'm not too optimistic.

This is the same Governor that did NOT veto the microstamping bill.

Arnold is NOT a friend of the 2A.

hoffmang
10-11-2009, 5:55 PM
I'm not too optimistic.

This is the same Governor that did NOT veto the microstamping bill.

Arnold is NOT a friend of the 2A.

He had a particular reason to sign the microstamping bill. Someone on "our side" caused an "own goal."

-Gene

n2k
10-11-2009, 6:05 PM
He had a particular reason to sign the microstamping bill. Someone on "our side" caused an "own goal."

-Gene

I can't wait for the tell all book and movie.:popcorn:

hoffmang
10-11-2009, 6:16 PM
I can't wait for the tell all book and movie.:popcorn:

Transparency is the default here on CGN:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=73228

-Gene

n2k
10-11-2009, 6:26 PM
Transparency is the default here on CGN:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=73228

-Gene

Thank you for the link, I've been searching for the answer.

The full story being told would still be a great read.

Jarrod
10-11-2009, 7:09 PM
This is absolutely false!

Everything else you said is absolutely true. To bad you had to dilute your credibility by immediately disowning any responsibility.

To be fair to what I was saying, I meant it within the context of student effort. A line or two later I clarified what I meant by saying that a teacher can teach their brains out (and be an excellent teacher) but get almost zero results when the students are not working.

Strictly speaking, the best statistic I have seen was a Harvard study that said student performance essentially broke down into:

45% = what goes on in the classroom.
45% = what goes on in the student's home
10% = class size, quality of books, etc.

The first high school I taught at had a large 1st generation Korean population (~ 33%) and 1st generation Armenian population (~ 33%). The remaining were upper-middle class white kids.

When I taught there, I had outstanding test scores.

I then moved to a school 70 miles away. The demographics were entirely different (socioeconomically it was middle class). (One subject that I taught had an average student GPA of 0.8.)

Guess what? I suddenly became a much worse teacher. My test scores were much lower. And after 4 years of working my butt off, partnering with other teachers to develop better teaching materials, doing all those things a professional is suypposed to do ... test scores remained the same. Why? One-half of the equation was not pitching in ... the students.

This excellent teacher, i.e., myself, and I really am quite good (it is one thing I do well) finally quit and started teaching college. (I have a very advanced degree.) At the college I am generally regarded by my students as an excellent teacher ... and guess what, they admit that their performance is more tied to their efforts than mine.


If teachers have no influence, why not just stand a wooden indian in front of the class. Fact is there are not that many really bad teachers, and if teachers had some control over the things you mention, there would be less. there are a lot of average to good teachers and some phenomenally good and talented teachers.

I was not trying to say no influence, I was trying to say that no matter how good you are, if the students don't care, the test scores will make you out to be a terrible teacher.

For four years I did anonymous surveys with my students wherein I gave the students a blank piece of paper. I asked them to write down why they thought they performed poorly on a test, or failed a class. Completely anonymous and all classes surverys were combined. The students knew I had an aid who typed up the responses and destroyed the originals so I could not read anyone's handwriting.

Guess what, when the students self-reported anonymously, about 85% said they did not do well because of their own efforts. Not a totally scientific survey, but it fits with the results of others who are doing the same.


My idea of education reform would be to provide everyone with an entitlement to 12 years of education.

My idea of education reform would put the parents financially directly on the hook for their child's performance. After all, we all say that the parents really are the ones who are in charge of ther kids, not the "damned gubmint schools". I agree. If you cannot get your child to do his or her homework, and make them behave in class, then I as the teacher sure cannot.

The job of the parents is to provide me, the teacher, with well-mannered students who are highly motivated to do their work, even if they think it is boring. Your children should be scared to death what will happen to them if the teacher calls home to complain about their behavior or lack of effort.

Sadly, too many parents are just not doing their jobs ... and prefer to blame the teachers/schools than actually take responsibility for their children.

Lone_Gunman
10-11-2009, 7:16 PM
Now back to the topic at hand...

From http://twitter.com/ejschultz3

Hollingsworth on chances of a #cawater deal tonight: "I don’t think that's poss…[trails off] we're making progress but that's hard to say"

These appear to still be the issues standing in a way of a #cawater deal: http://tinyurl.com/yfnyprc

orangeusa
10-11-2009, 7:21 PM
I don't think anybody is maligning teachers here. There are 700 bills, and we've kinda gotten stuck on ONE.
Can we agree to disagree and get back to the OP.

My concern is that it's now 7:15pm on Sunday 11-Oct-09, and from last posts - only 89 have passed, 94 have been vetoed. Granted, the last post was about 4:00pm.. So the Governor has to sign or veto 100 bills per hour to clear out the rest. this based on the statement that the governor "seldom lets bills pass without a signature or veto".

A majority of our laws will go into effect or be vetoed in 5 HOURS. I understand that the Governor is trying to straighten out the Water issue, whic has been a hot button since Ca was brought into the United States (and before!!!). Hope he doesn't tire and sign on the wrong line!!!

Kinda like going to college for a semester, and taking a 1 question TRUE /FALSE question to pass or fail the CLASS.

This is SCARY.

Jarrod
10-11-2009, 8:19 PM
I don't think anybody is maligning teachers here.

Disagreed.

Can we agree to disagree and get back to the OP.

Agreed.

Kinda like going to college for a semester, and taking a 1 question TRUE /FALSE question to pass or fail the CLASS.

This is SCARY.

Agreed.