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View Full Version : DOES AB962 INCLUDE RELOADING COMPONENTS?


RaymondMillbrae
10-10-2009, 2:58 PM
Hey folks,

I have a question that was asked in another thread, but never answered.

If AB 962 passes, does it include reloading components like the bullets themselves, or primers and powder?

Just curious.

In Christ: Raymond

Legasat
10-10-2009, 3:02 PM
I thought it did, but I just did a search and some reading, and apparently it does not cover reloading components.

bwiese
10-10-2009, 3:18 PM
(a) For purposes of this subdivision, "ammunition" shall include, but not be limited to, any bullet, cartridge,
magazine, clip, speed loader, autoloader, or projectile capable of being fired from a firearm with a deadly
consequence. "Ammunition" does not include blanks.

It appears raw bullets (as separate from loaded ammo cartidges) would be under control of AB962.

It appears that en bloc Garand clips and stripper clips - in addition to whole magazines - would be subject to control of '962.

Individual separable magazine components would not be included.

I don't know what an "autoloader" is per se, and it's not defined in regulation, but it might well include LULAs that dump 30rds of 223 into an AR mag.

AB962 would most likely include HKS speedloaders for revolvers, and "moon clips" for those of us that like to shoot 45ACP revolvers (RIMZ, etc.)

The ".., .but not be limited to, ..." phrasing may allow future unfavorable regulatory tweaks to this law when a new state Atty General (Kamala Harris) takes over. I can see attempts to regulate brass, primers and powder. If passed, fighting each regulatory grab will require lawyer time and money (look what we had to do to stop the redefinition of 'detachable magzine' - now imagine that multiplied by ten for the various items above.


PLEASE KEEP CALLING AND FAXING AND EMAILING. LET'S BEAT THIS HERE SO WE DON'T HAVE TO SPEND MONEY ON LAWYERS, AND CAN USE THE LAWYERS FOR OTHER THINGS.

BigBamBoo
10-10-2009, 3:37 PM
..........

Librarian
10-10-2009, 3:39 PM
It appears raw bullets (as separate from loaded ammo cartidges) would be under control of AB962.

It appears that en bloc Garand clips and stripper clips - in addition to whole magazines - would be subject to control of '962.

Individual separable magazine components would not be included.

I don't know what an "autoloader" is per se, and it's not defined in regulation, but it might well include LULAs that dump 30rds of 223 into an AR mag.

AB962 would most likely include HKS speedloaders for revolvers, and "moon clips" for those of us that like to shoot 45ACP revolvers (RIMZ, etc.)

The ".., .but not be limited to, ..." phrasing may allow future unfavorable regulatory tweaks to this law when a new state Atty General (Kamala Harris) takes over. I can see attempts to regulate brass, primers and powder. If passed, fighting each regulatory grab will require lawyer time and money (look what we had to do to stop the redefinition of 'detachable magzine' - now imagine that multiplied by ten for the various items above.


PLEASE KEEP CALLING AND FAXING AND EMAILING. LET'S BEAT THIS HERE SO WE DON'T HAVE TO SPEND MONEY ON LAWYERS, AND CAN USE THE LAWYERS FOR OTHER THINGS.





I don't think so.

That bit appears to be the new 12317, which makes it a crime to sell such things to ineligible persons; it's a (completely un-necessary) companion to 12316, which makes it a crime for ineligible persons to possess them, and in both cases that definition is limited to the numbered section in which it appears.

The question seems really to be 'does 962 require FTF sales of reloading components', and the answer there is "no" - the FTF part of the new 12060 and the new 12318 applies to handgun ammunition as defined in PC 12323 - and that is not the laundry list of 12316(b)(2) or the new 12317(c).

(I don't see a subsection (a) with the quoted content in the enrolled bill at http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/09-10/bill/asm/ab_0951-1000/ab_962_bill_20090921_enrolled.html)

bwiese
10-10-2009, 3:52 PM
I don't think so.

That bit appears to be the new 12317, which makes it a crime to sell such things to ineligible persons; it's a (completely un-necessary) companion to 12316, which makes it a crime for ineligible persons to possess them, and in both cases that definition is limited to the numbered section in which it appears.

The question seems really to be 'does 962 require FTF sales of reloading components', and the answer there is "no" -- the FTF part of the new 12060 and the new 12318 applies to handgun ammunition as defined in PC 12323 - and that is not the laundry list of 12316(b)(2) or the new 12317(c).

(I don't see a subsection (a) with the quoted content in the enrolled bill at http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/09-10/bill/asm/ab_0951-1000/ab_962_bill_20090921_enrolled.html)

Good. I hope you indeed are right and I am wrong... perhaps my eyes are failing me, and I am reading quickly before going out the door. I'll have to do a detailed read if the worst-case comes to fore...

I will say this law covers enough ground that it's easy to patch/amend with what appears to be a spot bill - so the danger is even more in the future if this passes.

PistolPete75
10-22-2009, 9:48 AM
It's always better to be safe then sorry. I would stock up on as many reloading components you can get your hands on. I just sent in a good size order in yesterday, and I'm planning to do one more before the end of the year. I should have enough to shoot for about 3 years.

Seems to be alot of confusion weather reloading components (mainly projectiles) are illegal to buy over the internet. If we are as confused, I think the reloading stores will be just as confused. Some may, some may not sell to californians.

I think it's smart to buy now when you can. You can never have too much reloading stuff, it's most likely going to go up in value anyways so it's still a good investment in either case. I was lucky enough to be able to place two large primer orders this year. One before the Obama scare, and one after. My only regret was I should have bought more.

chucks
10-22-2009, 11:41 AM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=3198743&postcount=1

G. Freeman
10-22-2009, 5:14 PM
Yes, reloading components are not affected by the bill. However, since it appears AB962 was passed so easily despite all the opposition to the bill, a ban on internet purchases on reloading components would likely be easy to pass through congress.

If that were to happen, it would be the end for high-volume shooters like myself. Local prices for reloading components are just too expensive compared to internet sources.

Our next governor needs to be pro-gun. Arnie was never pro-gun.

tiko
10-22-2009, 7:55 PM
All guns that Arnie used in his movies are blanks :)

bodger
10-22-2009, 8:32 PM
My guess is, even if it's legal, the online retailers will just stop sales of everything ammo related to California. I also think, just like the magazines, the border states won't sell ammo of any kind to Californians.

I'm still confused as to how they would know we aren't residents of their state. Last time I bought ammo in AZ, I don't recall them asking me for any ID.

It's been a while, so maybe that's changed or I don't remember.

otteray
10-22-2009, 8:49 PM
My guess is, even if it's legal, the online retailers will just stop sales of everything ammo related to California. I also think, just like the magazines, the border states won't sell ammo of any kind to Californians.

When I was visiting Oregon last year , my son-in-law (a local) bought a bunch of ammo so we could go do some target blasting.
The store only carded him, not me, waiting by the door... :)

smallshot13
10-22-2009, 9:42 PM
I will continue to post this same information until someone specifically refutes it. 962 may well impact sales of bullets, magazines, speed loaders, etc.. 12317 is added to the PC. and states: "12317. (a) Any person, corporation, or firm who supplies, delivers, sells, or gives possession or control of, any ammunition to any person who he or she knows or using reasonable care should know is prohibited from owning, possessing, or having under his or her custody or control, any ammunition or reloaded ammunition pursuant to
paragraph (1) or (4) of subdivision (b) of Section 12316, is guilty
of a misdemeanor,...." Then goes on to define ammunition as "(c) For purposes of this section, "ammunition" shall include, but
not be limited to, any bullet, cartridge, magazine, clip, speed
loader, autoloader, or projectile capable of being fired from a
firearm with deadly consequence. "Ammunition" does not include
blanks."

Out of state vendors will not risk the vague language that requires them to know everyone in the entire delivery chain, whether private shipper or USPS, and know that they are not a prohibited person under CA PC.

962 will impact reloading components, even if that is from over cautious interpretation of very vague language, which is exactly the situation many vendors have assumed for sales to places like SF, LA, Orange, Napa, etc...

bodger
10-22-2009, 9:49 PM
All guns that Arnie used in his movies are blanks :)



Yeah. And I'll bet Arnie has some nice firearms that he owns personally.

He might have to hide them from his anti-gun wife, but I'll bet he's got 'em.

Pretty ironic, Maria dips her bread in plenty of hot gravy that was earned by Arnie with a gun in his hand. Even if it was only loaded with movie blanks.

Librarian
10-22-2009, 11:19 PM
962 will impact reloading components, even if that is from over cautious interpretation of very vague language, which is exactly the situation many vendors have assumed for sales to places like SF, LA, Orange, Napa, etc...

That's probably true - and every time you post that mis-interpretation, I think you make it just a tiny bit more likely.

962 does not impose FTF, no-Internet sales on reloading components. That part you persist in reposting is not the definition of 'ammunition' that the FTF restrictions affect.

jinggoyd1967
10-23-2009, 9:31 AM
Is it possible to get an interpretation from Atty Gen. Brown regarding the issue of reloading components? Maybe a memo can be posted on his office website that we can refer out of state vendors to.

nn3453
10-23-2009, 9:39 AM
That's probably true - and every time you post that mis-interpretation, I think you make it just a tiny bit more likely.


And every time that misinterpretation is posted, some out of state vendor searching the Internet for information will be more convinced that 962 does indeed ban reloading components. The DOJ will probably remain mum on the issue to create FUD. So please stop propagating FUD unless you are a lawyer and can interpret the law for a living. So far, Librarian's interpretation seems the sanest.

GP3
10-23-2009, 9:41 AM
DOES AB962 INCLUDE RELOADING COMPONENTS?

Not yet.

tiki
10-23-2009, 9:43 AM
I will continue to post this same information until someone specifically refutes it. 962 may well impact sales of bullets, magazines, speed loaders, etc.. 12317 is added to the PC. and states: "12317. (a) Any person, corporation, or firm who supplies, delivers, sells, or gives possession or control of, any ammunition to any person who he or she knows or using reasonable care should know is prohibited from owning, possessing, or having under his or her custody or control, any ammunition or reloaded ammunition pursuant to
paragraph (1) or (4) of subdivision (b) of Section 12316, is guilty
of a misdemeanor,...." Then goes on to define ammunition as "(c) For purposes of this section, "ammunition" shall include, but
not be limited to, any bullet, cartridge, magazine, clip, speed
loader, autoloader, or projectile capable of being fired from a
firearm with deadly consequence. "Ammunition" does not include
blanks."

Out of state vendors will not risk the vague language that requires them to know everyone in the entire delivery chain, whether private shipper or USPS, and know that they are not a prohibited person under CA PC.

962 will impact reloading components, even if that is from over cautious interpretation of very vague language, which is exactly the situation many vendors have assumed for sales to places like SF, LA, Orange, Napa, etc...

You can refute it yourself by reading it again. The section you bold faced deals with prohibited persons. Librarian has it correct.

calixt0
10-23-2009, 10:59 AM
So If it does end up affecting things like projectiles, I will and I encourage you all to do the same. I will go through the local hardware stores, grocery store, and any other store I can find and make a list of all the things that can be indeed shot from a gun (rock salt, washers, nuts, rod segments that can be cut down an lathed into projectiles, popcorn kernels, etc) and inform the authorities of illegal things being sold.

If not enforced there I can assume that some sort of law suit can be made showing the "bias" used to enforce laws only against certain hobbyists.

Just my thoughts and I'm certainly not a lawyer.

Mstrty
10-23-2009, 4:40 PM
So If it does end up affecting things like projectiles, I will and I encourage you all to do the same. I will go through the local hardware stores, grocery store, and any other store I can find and make a list of all the things that can be indeed shot from a gun (rock salt, washers, nuts, rod segments that can be cut down an lathed into projectiles, popcorn kernels, etc) and inform the authorities of illegal things being sold.

If not enforced there I can assume that some sort of law suit can be made showing the "bias" used to enforce laws only against certain hobbyists.

Just my thoughts and I'm certainly not a lawyer.

What about shipping the long range rubberbands for my rubberband rifle?