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VHK
10-10-2009, 1:58 PM
I just read this and this stuff is crazy. Sorry if it has already been posted here but I haven't seen it.http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=112110

CSACANNONEER
10-10-2009, 2:07 PM
It appears that SWAT needed to get involved because eggs were being illegally traded. Didn't you know there is a lucrative underground egg market? We need to keep these illegal eggs out of the hands of criminals! It's for the children! Just think of the children and what might happen to them if they get a hold of one of these eggs!

Brianguy
10-10-2009, 2:13 PM
Wow talk about uncalled for. I hope whoever approved the raid gets reamed.

dwtt
10-10-2009, 4:48 PM
Wow talk about uncalled for. I hope whoever approved the raid gets reamed.

From my experience dealing with govt bureaucrats, nothing will happen to the Ohio agriculture agent who brought on the raid. Any bureaucrat high enough to cause a swat raid is likely high enough to be protected by the bureaucratic system.

woodsman
10-10-2009, 5:00 PM
Seems to be another example of abusive police force against regular folk.

I fear this may only get worse and may be accelerated should incorporation come.

Meplat
10-10-2009, 5:07 PM
As one within the 'system' I agree.

From my experience dealing with govt bureaucrats, nothing will happen to the Ohio agriculture agent who brought on the raid. Any bureaucrat high enough to cause a swat raid is likely high enough to be protected by the bureaucratic system.

Roadrunner
10-10-2009, 5:18 PM
Back when I was a kid, I read a lot of "MAD Magazine" and "Cracked". And back when i was a kid this would have probably been viewed as funny. But when it really happens, you have to wonder who has been smoking crack.

mmartin
10-10-2009, 5:21 PM
they're in good company... you should see what happens if you try to co-op a raw milk purchase.
or raise grass-fed beef or pork.
and don't even THINK about keeping boars and hogs as part of a hunting preserve...
you folks might not be hearing about this much but you can spend a whole lot of money defending yourself from felony charges for selling raw milk. even if you cow-share with other folks, you may find yourself up on charges and being man-handled by the swat team.
even if you're menonite or amish and that's how you make your living (selling eggs and milk locally). 'cause, you know, they're dangerous if you let them sell milk, the amish... certainly worthy of a swat team.
we dont hear too much about it here, but it's happening on a regular basis on the east coast and sometimes in the midwest.

and just wait until you find out about NAIS... *every* livestock animal (from cow to chicken to llama to goat) has to be microchipped or tagged, and you have to report to the GVT every time any animal is sold or bought or slaughtered or moved off- or on- to your property for any reason. oh, and your property has to be registered with the GVT. and you get to pay for the privelege of doing all that. and buy the chips/tags. or else.
but hey if it saves just one child from getting ecoli...
megan

Roadrunner
10-10-2009, 5:26 PM
Ah, well there's the mistake. The cops were totally in the right because everyone knows you can only keep manna for a day except on fridays then it's good for two days.:rolleyes:

kperry
10-10-2009, 8:35 PM
But - we must protect the profi... errr safety of the food supply! No, no, nothing to do with the leverage of Armour/Swift and Safeway....

POLICESTATE
10-10-2009, 8:46 PM
and just wait until you find out about NAIS... *every* livestock animal (from cow to chicken to llama to goat) has to be microchipped or tagged, and you have to report to the GVT every time any animal is sold or bought or slaughtered or moved off- or on- to your property for any reason. oh, and your property has to be registered with the GVT. and you get to pay for the privelege of doing all that. and buy the chips/tags. or else.
but hey if it saves just one child from getting ecoli...
megan

Not long after that we will all have to report to the govt in triplicate every time we use the restroom as well as details on volume, appearance and possibly even a sample for analysis. All for our protection of course.

bodger
10-10-2009, 9:05 PM
I'm just glad they didn't find any EBRs in the course of their search.

Evil Co-Op owner with assault rifle guarding his eggs.

POLICESTATE
10-10-2009, 9:07 PM
I'm just glad they didn't find any EBRs in the course of their search.

Evil Co-Op owner with assault rifle guarding his eggs.

Black Market Eggs + EBR = Summary Execution

mmartin
10-10-2009, 9:17 PM
I'm just glad they didn't find any EBRs in the course of their search.

Evil Co-Op owner with assault rifle guarding his eggs.

one would want to be extra careful about what one might have on hand to protect said eggs...
one of the guys who runs a co-op inspired weeks of stakeout and being followed by federal agents... before being arrested for raw milk.

grassroots for halting NAIS: http://nonais.org/

more on illicit milk sellers:

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/brooklyn/2008/05/01/2008-05-01_raw_milk_lovers_upset_over_amish_arrest.html

http://www.infowars.com/mennonite-arrested-for-selling-raw-milk/

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1598525,00.html

http://www.opednews.com/articles/The-sale-of-Raw-Milk-is-le-by-Susan-Allen-080707-583.html

and a guide on how not to get arrested for buying raw milk: http://thedairydude.com/?p=231

mmartin
10-10-2009, 9:23 PM
andin case you need a little more outrage in your day...

http://www.readthehook.com/Stories/2006/10/05/COVER-boarSlaughter-F.doc.aspx

these folks had a hunting reserve with 80 or so russian boar and some pet hogs... all of them killed with 12g shotguns by gvt agents on an unsubstantiated report of disease.

As the 12 shotgun blasts rang out from the special pen that Cindi Henshaw reserved for her favorite pets, she sat in her living room and realized, "They just shot Cupid and Valentine."

Three weeks later, tears still well up when she tells about the pair of Russian boars she raised from infancy and that followed her around like dogs. Cupid and Valentine were in their pen September 14 when government agents shot them, wrapped chains around their 500-pound bodies and dragged them off, leaving behind a trail of blood.

Cindi's husband, Danny Henshaw, a former police officer who'd done undercover narcotics work, is a former nationally ranked bow-hunter who made hunting videos for a decade. The last thing he expected was to be arrested in a SWAT-style raid on his Buckingham County hunting preserve and to see his herd of Russian boars slaughtered by shotgun-toting state and federal officials.

The government calls it "depopulation," an effort to stop a potentially deadly livestock disease. But to the Henshaws and some independent farmers, what happened was a horror, an overreaction, and-- with nearly 80 hogs taken by 12-gauge shotguns-- overkill.

take the link for the rest of the story.
megan

POLICESTATE
10-10-2009, 10:31 PM
So much for due process.

fd15k
10-10-2009, 11:00 PM
omg...

Meplat
10-10-2009, 11:31 PM
I raised my kids on raw whole milk and uninspected beef, pork, chicken, eggs, rabbit, and chevon. Not to mention home grown vegetables. It's a damn site better than the stuff in the super market. But, then we raised it ourselves, it's all about being able to trust the source.;)



they're in good company... you should see what happens if you try to co-op a raw milk purchase.
or raise grass-fed beef or pork.
and don't even THINK about keeping boars and hogs as part of a hunting preserve...
you folks might not be hearing about this much but you can spend a whole lot of money defending yourself from felony charges for selling raw milk. even if you cow-share with other folks, you may find yourself up on charges and being man-handled by the swat team.
even if you're menonite or amish and that's how you make your living (selling eggs and milk locally). 'cause, you know, they're dangerous if you let them sell milk, the amish... certainly worthy of a swat team.
we dont hear too much about it here, but it's happening on a regular basis on the east coast and sometimes in the midwest.

and just wait until you find out about NAIS... *every* livestock animal (from cow to chicken to llama to goat) has to be microchipped or tagged, and you have to report to the GVT every time any animal is sold or bought or slaughtered or moved off- or on- to your property for any reason. oh, and your property has to be registered with the GVT. and you get to pay for the privelege of doing all that. and buy the chips/tags. or else.
but hey if it saves just one child from getting ecoli...
megan

mmartin
10-10-2009, 11:38 PM
I raised my kids on raw whole milk and uninspected beef, pork, chicken, eggs, rabbit, and chevon. Not to mention home grown vegetables. It's a damn site better than the stuff in the super market. But, then we raised it ourselves, it's all about being able to trust the source.;)

well if NAIS goes through, you won't be able to raise your grandkids on it without the FDA keeping track of it.

we raise our own lamb, have milk goats, chickens, ducks, geese, and raise our own veges... a different experience than grocery producs for sure.

<not> RFIDing my critters. Not.

megan

M198
10-10-2009, 11:44 PM
I stopped reading at the WorldNet Daily part. Information on page 6 of the NY post is more reliable. You have a better chance of getting the truth if by reading chickens blood in the sand. I gave up on them 5 years ago when they claimed to have found WMD's in Iraq. Good news travels slow I guess.

Meplat
10-11-2009, 12:22 AM
You don't know how good an egg can be unless you have free range chickens.;)

So how do I fight this?

well if NAIS goes through, you won't be able to raise your grandkids on it without the FDA keeping track of it.

we raise our own lamb, have milk goats, chickens, ducks, geese, and raise our own veges... a different experience than grocery producs for sure.

RFIDing my critters. Not.

megan

Meplat
10-11-2009, 12:30 AM
There WERE WMD's in Iraq, most went to Syria. WND? Well, some truth, some doubt. But, always smoke, you have to sort out the fire.


I stopped reading at the WorldNet Daily part. Information on page 6 of the NY post is more reliable. You have a better chance of getting the truth if by reading chickens blood in the sand. I gave up on them 5 years ago when they claimed to have found WMD's in Iraq. Good news travels slow I guess.

CABilly
10-11-2009, 12:40 AM
Here's an equally chilling story:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/oct/05/criminalizing-everyone/

""You don't need to know. You can't know." That's what Kathy Norris, a 60-year-old grandmother of eight, was told when she tried to ask court officials why, the day before, federal agents had subjected her home to a furious search.

The agents who spent half a day ransacking Mrs. Norris' longtime home in Spring, Texas, answered no questions while they emptied file cabinets, pulled books off shelves, rifled through drawers and closets, and threw the contents on the floor.

The six agents, wearing SWAT gear and carrying weapons, were with - get this- the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.

pullnshoot25
10-11-2009, 12:43 AM
YAY FOR BIG GOVERNMENT!

I am about ready to hurl. What a bunch of ****ing *******s to commit these atrocities with such reckless abandon and malicious will. Have these agents no conscience? No moral compass or compassion?

I hope God has a special place for all the soulless government agents who have thrived on the blood of innocent victims.

---

On a happier note, pigs are rad pets and very clean animals. While I never had one for a pet (raised three and ate 1.5 of them), I always had a good time with them. They were smart and playful and they barked when they ran around to play.

I wish I had pictures still...

woodsman
10-11-2009, 8:16 AM
It seems that many have just become part of that herd.

The loss of moral compass and being in power is a bad mix.

bodger
10-11-2009, 8:46 AM
YAY FOR BIG GOVERNMENT!

I am about ready to hurl. What a bunch of ****ing *******s to commit these atrocities with such reckless abandon and malicious will. Have these agents no conscience? No moral compass or compassion?

I hope God has a special place for all the soulless government agents who have thrived on the blood of innocent victims.

---

On a happier note, pigs are rad pets and very clean animals. While I never had one for a pet (raised three and ate 1.5 of them), I always had a good time with them. They were smart and playful and they barked when they ran around to play.

I wish I had pictures still...

These are the same bilious bastids who will follow the order to come and confiscate your firearms if it ever comes to that.

The SWAT team that ransacked that farm broke their oath to uphold the law when they did that. And they would do it again. All in the name of power.

Pigs barked when they ran around....you sure those were pigs you ate? :D:D

CSACANNONEER
10-11-2009, 8:50 AM
Pigs barked when they ran around....you sure those were pigs you ate? :D:D

That's what his parents told him they were. Fido, Lassie and Rover were the cutest little "pigs".

mmartin
10-11-2009, 9:04 AM
You don't know how good an egg can be unless you have free range chickens.;)

So how do I fight this?

my personal favorite is free range duck eggs... just like regular eggs, except they're like the BEST eggs you've ever eaten.:D

start with http://nonais.org... walter jeffries runs the site and he's as knowledgeable as anyone on the subject. cruise the archives to get educated on the current state of things. check the right sidebar for links to organizations and more info. there are 2 CA groups on yahoo you can join. they are sometimes active, sometimes not, but you may be able to connect with others for things like show-up-at-the-capitol road trips.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Californians_against_NAIS/

http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/centralcaliforniansagainstnais/

write /call/fax/email your elected officials on the subject. the bill itself is federal, but there are state bills that either echo the federal bill, incorporate specific parts of it, limit it, or prohibit certain parts of it...

if you find a group listed in the sidebar that's doing work you approve of, even in another state, donate.

when the stories come up like the hog slaughter, contact the abused with your support (moral or financial, many have big legal bills), contact the abusers with your criticism. contact the news media in hopes of drawing attention to the situation (sometimes it works).

FDA's been getting a lot of kick back, they were on a "here's how it's going to work" tour, and had to change that to a "listening to what you think" tour... if there's a meeting you can get to, go and have your say.

educate those around you... there is a requirement in the bill that every facility with livestock be registered including private homes, some are nominally 'voluntary' (provided the animals all spend their entire life on property) but voluntary gets done by some sneaky methods... things like telling kids they can't participate in the 4-H sheep program unless they fill out the paperwork to register their parent's address under NAIS (and it doesn't require an adult's signature, so it's legal if a minor does it.)

ask the animal handling pros what they know about it and what their position is... there's plenty-o-FUD to be dispelled.

ready? go!
megan

locosway
10-11-2009, 9:04 AM
I'm just waiting for someone to say "It's a bad example of a mistake. Everyone makes mistakes"...

mmartin
10-11-2009, 9:13 AM
Here's an equally chilling story:
The six agents, wearing SWAT gear and carrying weapons, were with - get this- the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.
did you read the rest? why they were ransacking the house in swat gear? they were worried about orchids.
yep, the folks who's house and lives were turned upside down and the elderly fellow who went to jail for 2 years... he was importing and raising orchids in his home. his overseas supplier and he had not filled out the proper paperwork for the imported flowers.

it's stuff like this that makes me sure I'm not paranoid, just paying attention.

unbelieveable.
or rather, sad that it is so believable.
megan

CABilly
10-11-2009, 9:35 AM
did you read the rest? why they were ransacking the house in swat gear? they were worried about orchids.
yep, the folks who's house and lives were turned upside down and the elderly fellow who went to jail for 2 years... he was importing and raising orchids in his home. his overseas supplier and he had not filled out the proper paperwork for the imported flowers.

it's stuff like this that makes me sure I'm not paranoid, just paying attention.

unbelieveable.
or rather, sad that it is so believable.
megan

Well, I did post the article. One would hope posters of articles would first read said articles...:p

Mulay El Raisuli
10-11-2009, 9:38 AM
Seems to be another example of abusive police force against regular folk.

I fear this may only get worse and may be accelerated should incorporation come.


You're kidding, right? This was a state agency violating federal civil rights. The best protection against that is to have the Bill of Rights (finally) Incorporated against the states.

The Raisuli

CSACANNONEER
10-11-2009, 9:46 AM
my personal favorite is free range duck eggs... just like regular eggs, except they're like the BEST eggs you've ever eaten.:D

ready? go!
megan

Megan is almost right. Duck eggs are great! I used to have ducks, geese, guinea fowl, and various chickens. The only eggs better than duck eggs were my goose egg and wild salmon scrambles. Man, I miss the extra cholesterol those rich duck eggs had. I've never tried store bought duck eggs are they pretty much the same? Or, are they like store bought blah chicken eggs vs. real chicken eggs?

mmartin
10-11-2009, 9:53 AM
Well, I did post the article. One would hope posters of articles would first read said articles...:p

sorry, lost track of who posted it...
megan

mmartin
10-11-2009, 9:56 AM
Megan is almost right. Duck eggs are great! I used to have ducks, geese, guinea fowl, and various chickens. The only eggs better than duck eggs were my goose egg and wild salmon scrambles. Man, I miss the extra cholesterol those rich duck eggs had. I've never tried store bought duck eggs are they pretty much the same? Or, are they like store bought blah chicken eggs vs. real chicken eggs?
love the goose eggs too, but you need an ax to crack 'em and two people to eat them... mostly we put those in the baking.
haven't had commercially produced duck eggs, never seen them although you might be able to find them in the asian markets.
megan

CSACANNONEER
10-11-2009, 10:00 AM
love the goose eggs too, but you need an ax to crack 'em and two people to eat them... mostly we put those in the baking.
haven't had commercially produced duck eggs, never seen them although you might be able to find them in the asian markets.
megan

You've really got me thinking now. I'm in the proccess of moving onto 20 acres and now, because of you, I might have to build a duck pen, pull out my incubator and get a few fertilized eggs from a friend. I guess I should wait to see what the coyote/lion situation is first though.

mmartin
10-11-2009, 10:07 AM
You've really got me thinking now. I'm in the proccess of moving onto 20 acres and now, because of you, I might have to build a duck pen, pull out my incubator and get a few fertilized eggs from a friend. I guess I should wait to see what the coyote/lion situation is first though.

you're welcome!:D

build 'em a duck house... if you can be there to feed them at dusk, they'll learn to come in for a little grain and they can be safe at night. if you've got lions, it'll have to be sturdy. or you need a LGD.

megan

94610BizMan
10-11-2009, 10:24 AM
love the goose eggs too, but you need an ax to crack 'em and two people to eat them... mostly we put those in the baking.
haven't had commercially produced duck eggs, never seen them although you might be able to find them in the asian markets.
megan

Berkeley Bowl has them fairly frequently. Home made Duck Egg Bavarian Creme with a hint of Rose or Raspberry syrup is super.

bodger
10-11-2009, 10:51 AM
The guy with the boar enclosure said: ""We're ready to go Ruby Ridge over this."

God forbid, but I wonder when the next incident like that will happen. And it won't be hard core militia, survivalists, or tin foil hat militants I'll bet.

Just some regular folks who aren't sctually breaking any laws, know their rights, are fed up and decide to stand their ground.

advocatusdiaboli
10-11-2009, 12:06 PM
I sure seems heavy handed, but we need to realize we are only hearing the co-op side of the story based on my reading of the article. So we may be drawing hasty conclusions based on hearing only one side. I would certainly hope a SWAT team would only be called if threats of violence were made against the inspectors. However, that fact that no charges against the co-op have been filed leads me to believe someone seriously screwed up ion the government side and over-reacted.

That said, given food safety issue, I think being inspected and having permits is a good idea. There have been deaths in the whole milk business. And some were kids who had no choice in what their parents chose for them. So the co-op is wrong on that score--they are storing food and should be inspected to ensure proper storage. I don't get the big deal as to why they refused--their bellicose reaction wasn't smart. Whiskey rebellion kind of provocation. Still the government over-reacted if violence wasn't a threat.

nobody_special
10-11-2009, 12:15 PM
Just some regular folks who aren't sctually breaking any laws

I'm not sure that's possible anymore.

POLICESTATE
10-11-2009, 12:35 PM
More or less everyone is some sort of criminal these days, with the thousands and thousands of federal, state and local laws on the books.

I'm not sure there really is any free places in America anymore, possibly some Indian reservations but that's about it as far as I can tell.

advocatusdiaboli
10-11-2009, 12:48 PM
Just some regular folks who aren't sctually breaking any laws.

In fact they may have been--it is not clear having only heard their side of it. Food safety is a big deal--it can kill--especially the very young and the very old. So are you advocating that we shouldn't have food safety laws or that people who sell or distribute food shouldn't be inspected as a public health issue? The co-op is saying that it seems. If they didn't want a confrontation, why didn't they file a lawsuit? Were they trying to push things along and provoke the government into a fight Ruby Ridge style? Hard to tell, but they and the government both have some explaining to as to why it went this far.

While getting a SWAT team involved might seem to be over reaction, we don't know if threats of violence were made. Anyone here remember the sausage factory owner who shot three inspectors to death with a pistol in Oakland a few years ago? I sure remember and I'll bet food inspectors all over the country are aware of it too. And I am pretty sure they are not allowed to be armed. What you you do as a food inspector if (I am saying if because we don't know yet) threats of violence were made against you if you dare try to inspect them? You might call for a regular cop--but I'll bet the police would say no--that''s a job for SWAT. And there you go. Again, not saying it's true but I am saying we don't have all the facts and many of you are showing a clear bias before you have all the facts.

mmartin
10-11-2009, 1:01 PM
I sure seems heavy handed, but we need to realize we are only hearing the co-op side of the story based on my reading of the article. So we may be drawing hasty conclusions based on hearing only one side. I would certainly hope a SWAT team would only be called if threats of violence were made against the inspectors. However, that fact that no charges against the co-op have been filed leads me to believe someone seriously screwed up on the government side and over-reacted.
you could certainly hope that but you'd be wrong... in reading about these sorts of events, SWAT is regularly a feature of the reported raids. and that serious screw-up and overreaction is being regularly repeated, has been for several years.
That said, given food safety issue, I think being inspected and having permits is a good idea. There have been deaths in the whole milk business. And some were kids who had no choice in what their parents chose for them. So the co-op is wrong on that score--they are storing food and should be inspected to ensure proper storage. I don't get the big deal as to why they refused--their bellicose reaction wasn't smart. Whiskey rebellion kind of provocation. Still the government over-reacted if violence wasn't a threat.
kids always have no choice, so that's a red-herring hot button. ("if it saves just one child" has been responsible for SO much of the errosion of our rights. but that's another topic.)

the bellicose reaction is because they are inspected and inspected and inspected and watched and followed and threatened and hasseled and inspected... not so different than the '60's version ... driving while black... or the CA version... exercising your constitutional 2A rights...

part of the point of these co-ops is that the law prohibits basic common sense practices. like selling your surplus milk to your neighbor. or trading it to them for a carton of their surplus fresh eggs. or keeping a cow or a goat in your own yard because of zoning.

so cow-share co-ops are formed where several people contract for the use of a cow and split the milk. all of them know the facility where the cow is kept, how it is fed and medicated, know how the milk is handled, and activly sign up to the process. all of them know the potential risks in drinking raw milk. the co-op folks are very careful with the animals and the milk handling because they will loose their entire business if they are not, and they personally know everyone who buys from them. they know and believe in what they do, and careful animal husbandry is part of that.

all in all, its much less risky than dealing with the food supply available through the factory-farm supply chain. you don't see hundreds of cases of food poisoning or ecoli across multiple states from cow-sharing.

my theory is this stuff gets the sort of resources (SWAT) and scruitiny (state and federal) applied to it that it does because it's ordinary folks getting outside the rules designed to protect them against their own "ignorance and stupidity". because you know we aren't capable of making our own best decisions and assessing and accepting the appropriate risks. :rolleyes: :mad:

there are people with power who seriously object to folks deciding and doing for themselves. we the people are not to be trusted to make our own choises over our own lives. that's what it's about, and certainly *that's* worth turning out the federal agents and the swat team for.

Megan

7x57
10-11-2009, 1:17 PM
even if you're menonite or amish and that's how you make your living (selling eggs and milk locally). 'cause, you know, they're dangerous if you let them sell milk, the amish... certainly worthy of a swat team.


:rofl:

Yeah, those Mennonite extremist sects. You can add in the Hutterites too--dangerous violent lunatics all, to be sure. :rofl2:

I knew there was a reason Iiked you.

The Amish and other Mennonite groups are quite good canaries in the coal mine for freedom, and I sorta get protective of them even though I have no connection at all. My wife says her family bought milk from a Hutterite colony, though.

7x57

mmartin
10-11-2009, 1:19 PM
That said, given food safety issue, I think being inspected and having permits is a good idea. There have been deaths in the whole milk business. And some were kids who had no choice in what their parents chose for them. So the co-op is wrong on that score--

please quote your case on this one... which co-op was found responsible for the death of a child due to improperly stored milk? food?

there was a case a couple of years ago where a (NoCal?) commercial dairy producing organic and raw milk was implicated in a food-related illness affecting children, but no evidence was found ever to indicate the dairy was the source of the illness... they were cleared by all the testing done. nonetheless, their business was badly damaged and they are still being wrongly reported as the cause of the problem.

megan

I think this is the one:

September 2006, after four children who had consumed raw milk and also raw spinach or sushi became ill, state officials ordered the dairy to shut down. All Organic Pastures products were recalled. Officials performed over 2,000 tests of the entire dairy operation, including swabs taken from the 300 cows, the farm, the manure and the equipment, without finding a single pathogen. The raw dairy products are now back on store shelves, yet many state health officials continue to report that Organic Pasture's raw milk caused illness due to E. coli.
http://www.realmilk.com/press-release-12mar07.htmlhttp://www.realmilk.com/press-release-12mar07.html

mmartin
10-11-2009, 1:31 PM
:I knew there was a reason Iiked you.

The Amish and other Mennonite groups are quite good canaries in the coal mine for freedom, and I sorta get protective of them even though I have no connection at all. My wife says her family bought milk from a Hutterite colony, though.

and see how she turned out? proof right there what that raw milk will do for ya.:D

I have from time to time entertained the idea of being mennonite, seems to me they think rightly on a lot of things... it's just that small issue with the restriction on sparkly bits... that one's tough on a belly dancer.

megan

Meplat
10-11-2009, 1:47 PM
all in all, its much less risky than dealing with the food supply available through the factory-farm supply chain. you don't see hundreds of cases of food poisoning or ecoli across multiple states from cow-sharing.

You got that right.

my theory is this stuff gets the sort of resources (SWAT) and scruitiny (state and federal) applied to it that it does because it's ordinary folks getting outside the rules designed to protect them against their own "ignorance and stupidity". because you know we aren't capable of making our own best decisions and assessing and accepting the appropriate risks. :rolleyes: :mad:

No it's because the nail that sticks up must be beaten down. The statests cannot afford to let self reliance exist or it might spread. It's about maintaining control and dependancy.

there are people with power who seriously object to folks deciding and doing for themselves. we the people are not to be trusted to make our own choises over our own lives. that's what it's about, and certainly *that's* worth turning out the federal agents and the swat team for.

Megan

;);)

mmartin
10-11-2009, 1:58 PM
megan: my theory is this stuff gets the sort of resources (SWAT) and scruitiny (state and federal) applied to it that it does because it's ordinary folks getting outside the rules designed to protect them against their own "ignorance and stupidity". because you know we aren't capable of making our own best decisions and assessing and accepting the appropriate risks.

No it's because the nail that sticks up must be beaten down. The statests cannot afford to let self reliance exist or it might spread. It's about maintaining control and dependancy.

two sides of the same coin.
I'm with you on that viewpoint.
megan

advocatusdiaboli
10-11-2009, 2:15 PM
First, I used milk as an example--and they distributed a lot of different foods. You got your facts wrong on milk illnesses--here are the facts as of 2007--at lot worse than you claimed but only one death so I was mistaken as well: http://www.foodsafety.ksu.edu/articles/384/RawMilkOutbreakTable.pdf

While I agree that the majority of food safety issues are due to large industrial farming and food businesses, not all are. We had several deaths here in California a few years ago from a local (SF Bay Area) cheese producer.

And I noticed none of you responded to the sausage factory shootings--because you know that raised the bar for safety concerns for food inspectors and yet it isn't convenient for your arguments--so you employ cognitive dissonance.

I don't know what the full facts of this case are--but neither do you yet you are drawing hasty conclusions that fit your general prejudices. Your minds are closed. I am trying to pry them open for a bit while we seek the truth and the system works it through. Then we'll see how it comes out. I'll save my condemnation until then. We do no cause good with a rash rush to judgement before all the facts are known.

bodger
10-11-2009, 2:17 PM
The bottom line for me on the subject is whether or not any laws were actually being violated. And if so, was it necessary to send in a SWAT team to seize evidence.

mmartin
10-11-2009, 2:53 PM
First, I used milk as an example--and they distributed a lot of different foods. You got your facts wrong on milk illnesses--here are the facts as of 2007--at lot worse than you claimed but only one death so I was mistaken as well: http://www.foodsafety.ksu.edu/articles/384/RawMilkOutbreakTable.pdf

While I agree that the majority of food safety issues are due to large industrial farming and food businesses, not all are. We had several deaths here in California a few years ago from a local (SF Bay Area) cheese producer.

I'm assuming my facts are the ones you're calling into question? if not, forgive my presumption. if that assumption is correct, let me just say: dude, if you're going to be the devils advocate, please be precise. you may want to re-read my post.

what I said was cow-share co-ops were safer than factory-farm produced food. what I said was people who participate in co-op milk are taking responsibility for their own risks and are entitled to do so, and they should not be prohibitted by law. what I said was these co-ops are persecuted out of scope with the risk they present to "public safety".

I didn't say raw milk is always safe, or commercial dairies producing raw milk are the same as cow-share co-ops, or noone ever gets sick from raw milk, or that noone ever gets sick on food from a small private producer.

your own source shows only one case listing a milk co-op, with 3 illnesses resulting, and that one was in Canada. that's ONE between 1973 and 2007. now THAT looks like a pretty secure and safe food source to me.

and if you check the .pdf you linked to, many of the references say "illness attributed to" or "associated with" and not "caused by". take those out of the stats and the "caused by" numbers look quite different.

I attribute the fact that I haven't seen any werewolves lately to having planted garlic in my garden... but that doesn't make it cause and effect.

megan

mmartin
10-11-2009, 3:05 PM
And I noticed none of you responded to the sausage factory shootings--because you know that raised the bar for safety concerns for food inspectors and yet it isn't convenient for your arguments--so you employ cognitive dissonance.

do let me clear that up for you...
I can't (and don't) speak for anyone else, but I didn't respond because that's a case I don't know anything about. I try not to do a lot of expounding on things I have no information on.

and I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "employing cognitive dissonance".
Cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously. (Wikipedia)
could you ellaborate on how my not responding to a particular comment you made is employing cognitive dissonance? I'm afraid I'm not getting it...

megan

POLICESTATE
10-11-2009, 3:24 PM
The bottom line for me on the subject is whether or not any laws were actually being violated. And if so, was it necessary to send in a SWAT team to seize evidence.

They did it to set an example "screw with us and we will beat you down" approach. This is the style you would expect to see in a totalitarian or other tyrannical regime like we have.

GuyW
10-11-2009, 4:15 PM
I have from time to time entertained the idea of being mennonite, seems to me they think rightly on a lot of things... it's just that small issue with the restriction on sparkly bits...

Its more than sparkly bits - the ones I had the misfortune to interact with don't like men to wear colored shirts or stripes, and other stupidity!

They might look "good" or romantic from a distance, but they (Amish, Mennonite, etc) practice abhorent things, and IMHO they are cults.

Abhorent things like shunning - you can probably find the story on the 'net about one father who hasn't been able to see his kids (who were poisoned against him) for years.

One local (Lebec but imported from PA) Mennonite cult, tried for years to convince my wife to divorce me because we were christian previously-divorced-people (a new blended family with new kids as well). These #$%^rds caused me a lot of trouble and pain. A "christian" group trying to break up a marriage and family?? They can rot in Hell....

On topic, they also twist scripture to disallow self-defense, citing, "vengeance is mine, saith the Lord". There's no talking common sense with these people.

BTW, they have an endearing habit of calling anyone non-Mennonite, "English"....some sort of German thing I guess...

.

devildog999
10-11-2009, 4:26 PM
Read about that a while ago, really sucks, I hope they win

7x57
10-11-2009, 5:08 PM
and see how she turned out? proof right there what that raw milk will do for ya.:D


Given that both sides of her family and one of mine farmed & ranched their own food in some way or the other, I can hardly think otherwise can I? :D

Even my evangelist father used to schedule us to be in his hometown in November so we could eat deer meat for nine months out of the year. It made a big difference on a shoestring budget. And we would visit country churches that nobody else would. They had little money to pay, but often we'd leave with all the fresh farm food we could carry.


I have from time to time entertained the idea of being mennonite, seems to me they think rightly on a lot of things... it's just that small issue with the restriction on sparkly bits... that one's tough on a belly dancer.


No offense, but my guess is that either you don't know enough about them. I guess it's also possible you have in mind some liberal offshoot which only retains the more politically correct bits of theology. (But if I'm wrong on that guess, I'll cheerfully learn something about another Anabaptist branch.) Traditionally, I think the belly dancing would be regarded as misconduct independent of the sparkly bits. There will be some variation between groups, and those who call themselves just "Mennonites" are less restrictive than some other Anabaptist groups, but consider that both romance novels and guitars are forbidden in Hutterite colonies (though pretty widely snuck around and sometimes purposely ignored for certain age groups).

Reader Health Warning: Since I know more about the Hutterites and the Amish than the "plain Mennonites," the following will be biased towards those groups. Also note that I'm ahistorically lumping in the Hutterites, who are not I believe Mennonites but are Anabaptists and have the same Radical Reformation roots. For most people, the distinction probably isn't as important as the similarities.

It's also an entirely tradition-based system. A lot of outsiders who think they want to join have a hard time realizing just how all-pervasive that is. As one Hutterite leader told an outsider, if "because that's how we do it" is not good enough for you on *any* matter of tradition, then you're not going to make it as a Hutterite. The same would be true for the Amish. The community decision is binding on all, and it would be unfair to all parties for someone who isn't willing to live within those rules to seek to join. "Plain Mennonites" are going to likely have a weaker version of the same thing.

I seem to recall that very few "adoptees" make it long-term, which is one reason why they (and here my knowledge is more about the Hutterites than the Amish, but they have many similar characteristics when it comes to communalism) not only do not proselytize but actively discourage joining.

And lastly--every Anabaptist derived group I know of is hard-core pacifist. You're enough of a gun-rights supporter to be posting on a hardcore gun-rights board. I don't think Mennonites are anti-gun at all: here's (http://www.kentuckyhunting.net/forums/showthread.php?t=70945) a discussion of Mennonites having a vigorous hunting tradition, which is what I'd expect of people determined to maintain a subsistence lifestyle. But they'd be hard-core anti-self-defense. Are you willing to let a dirtbag kill you even if you knew you could stop him with violence, because you believe that is what Christ commanded his followers? If not, it would be unfair to join a group committed to that belief.

They are, however, the salt of the earth, in spite of the general tendency for the local "English" (i.e. everybody else) to tell bigoted lies about them. There's nobody I'd rather find me in need of help. Well, unless I needed to get to a hospital and the group was one of those who won't use vehicles (i.e. Amish, the Hutterites have no problem with technology). (Some have local rules variations--work vehicles only, for example.) But an Amishman without a car would kill his horse trying to get an Englishman to the closest vehicle.

(Edited to fix some confusion between Mennonite/non-Mennonite Anabaptists.)

7x57

7x57
10-11-2009, 5:21 PM
They might look "good" or romantic from a distance, but they (Amish, Mennonite, etc) practice abhorent things, and IMHO they are cults.


Sigh. Let's see. When one generalizes from one black man or group to all of them, what do we call it? When one generalizes from one Jew or group to all of them, what do we call it? And when one generalizes from one Mennonite person or group to all of them, what should we call it?

If I were speaking to an Amishman, I'd call myself "English" and be proud of it (and probably joke about it with him, as I also have German roots just as he would). But then I wouldn't feel obliged to try to impose my culture and language on him, as you seem to. Complaining about a trivial matter like that is a pretty good indicator of where your dislike is coming from.

As for shunning and the like, I view their cultural practices as an excellent test of just how much you believe in freedom and "tolerance". The survivors of the Anabaptists came here because people like you ran the countries they came from, and thought their practices were abhorrent too. In fact, I believe the US and Canada are the only reason there are still Hutterites at all (and there are colonies in Canada mostly because of trouble here, I seem to recall).

Canaries in the coal mine. :(

7x57

GuyW
10-11-2009, 6:04 PM
As for shunning and the like, I view their cultural practices as an excellent test of just how much you believe in freedom and "tolerance".

Really? FREEDOM?? TOLERANCE???

You are going to defend children being kept from visitation with their fathers (or mothers) for years?? And people made outcasts to those they have known their entire lives?

Parents and people who committed no civil crimes, but merely thought differently than the group?

Complaining about a trivial matter like that is a pretty good indicator of where your dislike is coming from.

If you READ my post, you'd see clearly where my dislike "is coming from". I do indeed dislike "people" who actively try to break up my marriage and family.

Canaries in the coal mine.

Pimples on the @$$ of society.
.

advocatusdiaboli
10-11-2009, 6:14 PM
could you ellaborate on how my not responding to a particular comment you made is employing cognitive dissonance? I'm afraid I'm not getting it...


Okay here it is more spelled out. The murder of three unarmed inspectors is material--it set a stage where any perceived threat is taken more seriously. Such as for example school threats after Columbine.

Food inspectors have a job--it is an important job. Three of them doing their job unarmed were ruthlessly gunned down in Oakland CA a few years back by a sausage plant owner who then turned his pistol on himself. I am sure that makes all inspectors more fearful. We don't know the facts here--if the co-op owners at all implied threats then it might be easy to see how SWAT got involved. But maybe it was an unwarranted over reaction--in any case that plant massacre is material as it set a new tone for the interactions--a more dangerous one for all involved.

So what do you have to say about it? Do you deny it didn't have an effect? Can you swear that the co-op folks, who easily could have challenged this in court non-violently, made no threats? Why did they choose to fight this way? Do we know? No. Do yo know? No. They are innocent until proven otherwise. But they certainly weren't cooperative it seems. Might they have made threats? We don't know. So why the rush to judgement from you? You've already made up you mind with mob-like gut reaction making it fit your view of the world before you have all the facts. We are still a nation of laws and courts. Why didn't they work that way?

All I am saying is there is more to this than reported in one article so far and we should stay calm and not knee-jerk out way to the wrong conclusion and wrong side. Maybe there are completely innocent here. In time we can hope justice is served for all involved.

Call me old fashioned, but when I see some of you looping a rope over a tree branch and ready to string someone up based on you gut and before all the facts are in, I stand up and say something about it.

7x57
10-11-2009, 6:40 PM
Really? FREEDOM?? TOLERANCE???


I thought so. You only tolerate freedom for people you feel deserve it.


You are going to defend children being kept from visitation with their fathers (or mothers) for years?? And people made outcasts to those they have known their entire lives?


I'll put you down as one of those who won't "fight to the death for their right to disagree with you."

It has nothing to do with what I think of their practices. I have commented nothing on any specific doctrine. And probably won't, now--I wouldn't want to inadvertently give ammunition to haters.


If you READ my post, you'd see clearly where my dislike "is coming from". I do indeed dislike "people" who actively try to break up my marriage and family.


Oh, I read it alright. Too bad you didn't read what I wrote about generalizing. Tell me--did every single Mennonite group in the world personally come to kick your cat?


Pimples on the @$$ of society.


That's why they got here. People just like you in Europe thought so too, and decided to do something about it. With torches and pitchforks, even. The Radical Reformation was mostly suppressed with steel by both Protestants and Catholics.

David Brin once said "we must ruthlessly destroy all those less tolerant than we." He smiled when he said it, but he meant it quite precisely. You'd get along, I think.

Poor canaries. :(

7x57

GuyW
10-11-2009, 6:58 PM
I thought so. You only tolerate freedom for people you feel deserve it.

I support actual, realized freedom for the people who are abused by these groups.

Moreover, other than upholding the human rights of a parent seeing their kids, I advocate no governmental intervention.


I'll put you down as one of those who won't "fight to the death for their right to disagree with you."


My post was in the context of alerting someone else to the dynamics of a closed culture.

The rest of your accusations about me are from your fevered mind.

I anxiously await your principled defense of Jim Jones and the Fundamentalist LDS...

.

7x57
10-11-2009, 7:05 PM
I support actual, realized freedom for the people who are abused by these groups.


I am not aware of any Anabaptist group whose members cannot leave at any time. Amish kids have to go live with the English for a while and actively choose to return.

But, of course, freedom is only for people you like.

Hmm. Some very strict Orthodox Jewish groups have many social similarities to the Amish. Guess you'd better start defaming them as well.


Moreover, other than upholding the human rights of a parent seeing their kids, I advocate no governmental intervention.


That's good at least. Of course, what does the left always say about the effect of talk on others?


The rest of your accusations about me are from your fevered mind.


No, from your posts.


I anxiously await your principled defense of Jim Jones and the Fundamentalist LDS...


Now you equate Mennonites with Jim Jones? You're sick, and pretty ignorant too. If I tell you what I think of that, Kes will have to get out the big ban stick.

I don't think you're even worth arguing with.

7x57

Meplat
10-11-2009, 7:35 PM
Be careful!! There are many different types of Mennonites. Some are hardly different than other protestants. I think maybe you are reacting to one or two zealous individuals that intruded negatively into your life. I grew up around Holderman Mennonites in central CA and found them good and decent people.


Its more than sparkly bits - the ones I had the misfortune to interact with don't like men to wear colored shirts or stripes, and other stupidity!

They might look "good" or romantic from a distance, but they (Amish, Mennonite, etc) practice abhorent things, and IMHO they are cults.

Abhorent things like shunning - you can probably find the story on the 'net about one father who hasn't been able to see his kids (who were poisoned against him) for years.

One local (Lebec but imported from PA) Mennonite cult, tried for years to convince my wife to divorce me because we were christian previously-divorced-people (a new blended family with new kids as well). These #$%^rds caused me a lot of trouble and pain. A "christian" group trying to break up a marriage and family?? They can rot in Hell....

On topic, they also twist scripture to disallow self-defense, citing, "vengeance is mine, saith the Lord". There's no talking common sense with these people.

BTW, they have an endearing habit of calling anyone non-Mennonite, "English"....some sort of German thing I guess...

.

GuyW
10-11-2009, 8:34 PM
I think maybe you are reacting to one or two zealous individuals that intruded negatively into your life.

No, I'm not, there were more than 1 or 2. Their actions were also consistent with what I found when I looked into Mennonite theology, colleges, and actions, in the issue of divorce and remarriage.

The various Ana-Baptist sects are the only groups that I know of which still practice shunning, and not all of them at that.



Some are hardly different than other protestants.

Are there moderates who are much better? I believe there are.

Without knowing the warning signs, tho, how would one know how to tell? That was the point of my original post.

.

Meplat
10-11-2009, 8:39 PM
My post was in the context of alerting someone else to the dynamics of a closed culture.
.

You are informing me of nothing! And you are giving others a warped idea of a good people. As said before, I grew up around Mennonites, my family has from time to time intermarried with them. Your accusations are warped and skewed at best. Don't defame those who you do not understand!:43:

POLICESTATE
10-11-2009, 8:46 PM
There is nothing wrong with the Mennonite group, they don't go screwing with other people, no gang-bangers, no drugs, no drive-bys, no fraud (at least so far as anyone can tell). Would be nice to have more of them around the country.

GuyW
10-11-2009, 8:47 PM
You are informing me of nothing!

I'm sorry if you were under the misapprehension that I was attempting to specifically inform you.

And you are giving others a warped idea of a good people. As said before, I grew up around Mennonites, my family has from time to time intermarried with them. Your accusations are warped and skewed at best. Don't defame those who you do not understand!:43:

Don't defame me by characterizing my experience as warped and skewed, and that I don't understand their actions.

I'll continue to share what I personally experienced, thank you very much.
.

Meplat
10-11-2009, 8:56 PM
The various Ana-Baptist sects are the only groups that I know of which still practice shunning, and not all of them at that.
.

Shunning is a civilized way to make a point. Would you prefer stoning?
:43:

GuyW
10-11-2009, 10:48 PM
Shunning is a civilized way to make a point. Would you prefer stoning?
:43:

Civilized??

(just one example)

"Justice Brown's judgment means he has no right to see or even communicate with the children, in a reversal of those previous court orders.

"I am a broken man -- I've lost so much that I am totally beaten," he told The Australian. "I've got to accept that I'll never see my children again. What have I done wrong? I've lost the children because I've left the church."

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25749563-601,00.html

Meplat
10-11-2009, 11:14 PM
That could not happen unless you reneged on your vows. Take oaths seriously and you will not have this problem.




Civilized??

(just one example)

"Justice Brown's judgment means he has no right to see or even communicate with the children, in a reversal of those previous court orders.

"I am a broken man -- I've lost so much that I am totally beaten," he told The Australian. "I've got to accept that I'll never see my children again. What have I done wrong? I've lost the children because I've left the church."

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25749563-601,00.html

mmartin
10-12-2009, 12:02 AM
Originally Posted by mmartin
could you ellaborate on how my not responding to a particular comment you made is employing cognitive dissonance? I'm afraid I'm not getting it...

Okay here it is more spelled out. The murder of three unarmed inspectors is material--<snip>
ok, let's try that again.
once again, please re-read my post.

my question was: Please explain what you meant by stating that my not replying was employing cognitive dissonance?

my question was not: please explain how the shooting of inspectors might impact on law enforcement officials.

allow me to restate: would you please clarify how my not responding to a particular comment you made is employing cognitive dissonance?

thank you,
megan

mmartin
10-12-2009, 1:30 AM
Okay here it is more spelled out. The murder of three unarmed inspectors is material--
...
So what do you have to say about it? Do you deny it didn't have an effect? Can you swear that the co-op folks, who easily could have challenged this in court non-violently, made no threats? Why did they choose to fight this way? Do we know? No. Do yo know? No. They are innocent until proven otherwise. But they certainly weren't cooperative it seems. Might they have made threats? We don't know. So why the rush to judgement from you? You've already made up you mind with mob-like gut reaction making it fit your view of the world before you have all the facts. We are still a nation of laws and courts. Why didn't they work that way?

All I am saying is there is more to this than reported in one article so far and we should stay calm and not knee-jerk out way to the wrong conclusion and wrong side. Maybe there are completely innocent here. In time we can hope justice is served for all involved.

1) I have coresponded with one of the families who were the subject of a similar raid. I have good reason to believe that they are telling the truth. their stories are quite similar to the one being discussed here.
2) these stories are recurring in multiple locations over the last several years. do you think that perhaps there's an epidemic of co-op people threatening the inspectors?
3) there are no stories I'm aware of that involve armed resistance by co-opers, or assaults on inspectors by co-opers.
4) gvt has the leverage of being able to arrest and abuse their authority, and it is rare to see either gvt or LEO held to account when they've been abusive.
5) because LE agencies and the gvt have the power they do, they are beholden to use it with restraint and I don't see that happening in these cases.
6) we're talking about co-ops here, not public markets or commercial producers. there is no threat to public safety, only to members of the co-op, and they all know what they are choosing and it's attendant risks.
7) gvt and LE action should be commensurate with the risk to public safety, and in these cases it is not.

yea, all this will get worked out in court. but in my experience, that will have more to do with leverage and gamesmanship and mitigating risk than with acertaining the facts and doing the right and just thing. I've been in business long enough to have been involved in both civil and criminal proceedings, so I speak from experience on this.

and if they were unfairly treated, they can sue, but even if they win it will not restore what they've lost. it will not restore their trust in LE, or belief in the benevelence and good will of gvt officials. or a sense of security that they can act in good faith and be treated fairly. it will not restore their children's sense that LE can be trusted and should be turned to when there is danger.

Call me old fashioned, but when I see some of you looping a rope over a tree branch and ready to string someone up based on you gut and before all the facts are in, I stand up and say something about it.

well now, there's an inflamatory statement... odd, I don't recall lynching being on the option list... certainly not part of my proposals.

I will say that there are some things that do not need to be proven (or should I say adjuticated) in court for me to know the LE/gvt action was overreaching. it surely looks like using a swat team to raid a co-op is one of them.

just curious, how many repetitions of an event does it take to make you think maybe there's a pattern? to think perhaps there is a trend? to see that this is not a series of isolated incidents but a pervasive attitude by those with leverage on their side? how many orchid-growers and co-ops and pig farmers need to be manhandled by the swat team before you start to think there's a problem?

or will you wait for the court decision on every one and never see a reason to step up?

megan

mmartin
10-12-2009, 1:40 AM
Its more than sparkly bits - the ones I had the misfortune to interact with don't like men to wear colored shirts or stripes, and other stupidity!

They might look "good" or romantic from a distance, but they (Amish, Mennonite, etc) practice abhorent things, and IMHO they are cults.

Abhorent things like shunning - you can probably find the story on the 'net about one father who hasn't been able to see his kids (who were poisoned against him) for years.
actually that sounds alot like my parent's divorce :mad:, and they're not amish OR mennonite....

ok, so it was a casual reference to the lifestyle not the detailed religous beliefs... my limited exposure to both amish and mennonite folks back east has always been positive, but I freely admit to not having great experience with the inner workings of either group. I have inlaws who are quaker, and have no complaints with any of my experiences there...

wasn't trying to start something that was going to go so badly off the rails... next time I'll just keep the conversation to safer territory... guns.:o
megan

VHK
10-12-2009, 2:15 AM
well if NAIS goes through, you won't be able to raise your grandkids on it without the FDA keeping track of it.

we raise our own lamb, have milk goats, chickens, ducks, geese, and raise our own veges... a different experience than grocery producs for sure.

<not> RFIDing my critters. Not.

megan
All that sound delicious. It reminds me of how my gr-grandmother used to do. I sure miss her cooking.

Asphodel
10-12-2009, 3:28 AM
megan,

Don't let some of these fellows 'get you down'.

I'm not personally familiar with the cases you've mentioned, but it does seem to be more than adequately clear, as a generality, that some agencies of government have engaged in what could only be called 'orgainsed crime operations' against ordinary, peaceable Americans.

Do I really 'know' whether any specific one is factual, or otherwise? No, of course not, I wasn't there and didn't see it myself. Do stories like that sound 'plausible'? Sadly, yes, they have a 'ring of plausibility.

A case of which I do have personal knowledge is one example. This is several years ago, now, and I mustn't mention any names, but an acquaintance of ours, who was dealing in surplus commo gear, bid on and bought a number of lots at a surplus sale.

Some time later, someone in the surplus property sales agency found that some small parts for classified 'secret' equipment had been included in a couple of those lots, by mistake.

Now, you'd think that the agency who sold those lots could simply ask him to return the parts, or send out someone to take back the few parts which they shouldn't have sold, right?

What actually happened was a 'commando raid' on the individual's property, with him and family being traumatised by 'swat-team' gun-thugs doing a so-called 'dynamic entry'.

In addition to the emotional trauma, he was battered and shackled, whilst the 'swat-team' did a great deal of malicious vandalism to his property, in an alleged 'search' for a few items he would have happily handed over at any time. Allegedly, some number of small valuable items simply 'disappeared', including all his firearms.

As he told the story, when he complained about the 'removal' or 'disappearance' of his own personal property, in addition to the removal of any 'secret' items, he was told that he should not complain, or he would be charged with some form of 'espionage', or some such charge, for possession of the items. (even tho he could prove that everything of that nature he had was legitimately purchased as government surplus)

See what I mean about your stories having the 'ring of plausibility'?

Re the stories about religious groups......yes, some religious groups are generally responsible citizens, who simply exercise a 1st Amendment right to profess a religion which seems 'different' or 'unusual' to people outside their group.

That said, there are some seriously dangerous cults out there, masquerading as religions. I've personally known a number of people who have been victims of cult operations, so I've had an interest in the 'cult' phenomena for some forty-ish years now.......I could tell some stories of seriously horrific abuses within those cults......but I won't, as no one here would believe them.

cheers

Carla

Mulay El Raisuli
10-12-2009, 7:20 AM
I'm not personally familiar with the cases you've mentioned, but it does seem to be more than adequately clear, as a generality, that some agencies of government have engaged in what could only be called 'orgainsed crime operations' against ordinary, peaceable Americans.

Carla


And this is the real focus on the problem. It isn't food banks that are at risk. It isn't religious group that are different from the mainstream. It isn't people living in 'the hills' either. The 'SWAT phenomenon' (as I think of it) is rampant everywhere. That is, if ANYONE is even a bit out of step, the govt is far too willing to impose overwhelming force to get what it wants. The thought that a suspect would stroll down to the police station when/if asked simply doesn't occur to Our Masters anymore. Koreseh could have been arrested just by asking him to drop by the sheriff's office. Koresh was in town frequently. Knew the sheriff & had a good relationship with him. Regardless of what anyone may think of the man's beliefs, a non-violent, non-SWAT way to arrest him was available & our govt decided to not use that approach.

Partly because their "sparkly things" are tac suits & M-16s, but also because to NOT knuckle under is seen as subversive.

The Raisuli

mmartin
10-12-2009, 11:44 AM
megan,

Don't let some of these fellows 'get you down'.
not to worry, some days I enjoy boxing just for the (mental) exercise:D

Now, you'd think that the agency who sold those lots could simply ask him to return the parts, or send out someone to take back the few parts which they shouldn't have sold, right?

What actually happened was a 'commando raid' on the individual's property, with him and family being traumatised by 'swat-team' gun-thugs doing a so-called 'dynamic entry'.

In addition to the emotional trauma, he was battered and shackled, whilst the 'swat-team' did a great deal of malicious vandalism to his property, in an alleged 'search' for a few items he would have happily handed over at any time. Allegedly, some number of small valuable items simply 'disappeared', including all his firearms.

As he told the story, when he complained about the 'removal' or 'disappearance' of his own personal property, in addition to the removal of any 'secret' items, he was told that he should not complain, or he would be charged with some form of 'espionage', or some such charge, for possession of the items. (even tho he could prove that everything of that nature he had was legitimately purchased as government surplus)

See what I mean about your stories having the 'ring of plausibility'?
yep. this. exactly.
megan

mmartin
10-12-2009, 11:52 AM
And this is the real focus on the problem. It isn't food banks that are at risk.

The 'SWAT phenomenon' (as I think of it) is rampant everywhere. That is, if ANYONE is even a bit out of step, the govt is far too willing to impose overwhelming force to get what it wants. The thought that a suspect would stroll down to the police station when/if asked simply doesn't occur to Our Masters anymore. Koreseh could have been arrested just by asking him to drop by the sheriff's office. Koresh was in town frequently. Knew the sheriff & had a good relationship with him. Regardless of what anyone may think of the man's beliefs, a non-violent, non-SWAT way to arrest him was available & our govt decided to not use that approach.

Partly because their "sparkly things" are tac suits & M-16s, but also because to NOT knuckle under is seen as subversive.

The Raisuli

and this^^

we've had a couple of personal run-ins with the swat phenomenon.
no, not offering up any details.
however my hubby and I do know first hand how this is currently working.

the rose colored glasses are permanently off. those of us who have had this sort of personal experience get it that there is something going on, that the swat phenomenon is real and it's not about right or fair or just or proper application of force or LE prudence and appropriate concern for their own safety.
the canarys are keeling over and they're there for you to see. those of you who haven't yet had this kind of personal experience, take note. or not. but when it lands on your doorstep remember this conversation.
megan

kcbrown
10-22-2009, 1:22 PM
and this^^

we've had a couple of personal run-ins with the swat phenomenon.
no, not offering up any details.
however my hubby and I do know first hand how this is currently working.

the rose colored glasses are permanently off. those of us who have had this sort of personal experience get it that there is something going on, that the swat phenomenon is real and it's not about right or fair or just or proper application of force or LE prudence and appropriate concern for their own safety.
the canarys are keeling over and they're there for you to see. those of you who haven't yet had this kind of personal experience, take note. or not. but when it lands on your doorstep remember this conversation.
megan

I realize this thread is rather old, but it's good enough that it should be resurrected. :D

The question that comes to mind after reading the above is: what's to be done about this situation?

If LE decides to descend upon you SWAT style, you're simply not going to survive if you fight, so fighting at that level is obviously counterproductive (I should also note that if you do decide to fight in that case, the outcome will be used to "justify" further use of unnecessary force).

So what can be done to break this cycle, and to get LE to return to some semblance of reasonableness?

It seems to me that a big part of the problem today may be that LE regards the citizenry itself as "the enemy" or, at best, a bunch of children against whom a "zero tolerance" policy is to be implemented. They are really the same thing in the end. How do we reverse that?

It used to be, quite some time ago (and perhaps only in a fantasy world that precedes me), that police walked the neighborhoods and knew the people in them. They were part of the community and there was a level of mutual trust. Today, the police rarely walk anywhere. When they're on patrol, they're in their cars, which isolates them from the outside world. When a cop is patrolling, the people don't see a person, they see a cop whose face is hidden behind the windshield. This both makes them much more difficult to interact with and much more difficult to really see, and this goes both ways. This causes impersonalization on both sides, and with impersonalization comes mistrust. When there is enough mistrust, the target of that mistrust becomes "the enemy".

This has to change, or the trends we see before us will continue until we really do have a police state.

dantodd
10-22-2009, 2:10 PM
You've really got me thinking now. I'm in the proccess of moving onto 20 acres and now, because of you, I might have to build a duck pen, pull out my incubator and get a few fertilized eggs from a friend. I guess I should wait to see what the coyote/lion situation is first though.

Egg layers, ducks or chickens are the top of my list if I ever move to land. I have a tiny backyard now and keep thinking about it. You will need to put your birds in at night but it isn't that much of a hassle. My sister and brother in law raised chickens for years in a wooded area. As long as they're in the coop at night they were safe.

locosway
10-22-2009, 3:36 PM
Walking for the police in CA is not an option. Unless maybe is a large city with traffic like SF, but even there I'm not sure how well it will work. I know in NY they still walk, and I've even seen their SWAT persons in the street with their rifles cruising around.

Once power is given, it's nearly impossible to remove. I don't know how we can make police more accountable for their wrong actions. Once there is any bit of suspicion that gives them PC to look further. If you resist that looking they'll continue escalating their force to be one step ahead of you.

In the end the citizens lose. At the end of the day the police forget they're citizens, and they've lost as well.