PDA

View Full Version : infrared laser


Timberland
10-08-2009, 8:00 PM
I read a "sniper scope" law a while back. Can anyone tell me where infrared lasers fall in ca law?

bigcalidave
10-08-2009, 8:09 PM
Check with the FDA? They regulate lasers here. Which is why we can't buy anything cool anymore. But your rangefinders have IR lasers, so do most distance measuring devices.

xibunkrlilkidsx
10-08-2009, 9:21 PM
If i remmeber its ones that are not visable to the naked eye that are illegal, ones that can only bee seen under NV goggles are illegal to have.

technique
10-08-2009, 9:27 PM
Nope....you CAN have an infrared laser invisible to the naked eye. What do you think the PEQs are. Insight will just not sell them to civi market.

xibunkrlilkidsx
10-08-2009, 9:33 PM
PEQ?


edit: ah always wondered what those units were called.

technique
10-08-2009, 9:36 PM
PEQ?

http://www.insighttechgear.com/products-peq2a.htm

WeekendWarrior
10-09-2009, 7:59 AM
WWRTW

reidnez
10-09-2009, 8:25 AM
CPC Section 468:

"Any person who knowingly buys, sells, receives, disposes of,
conceals, or has in his possession a sniperscope shall be guilty of a
misdemeanor, punishable by a fine not to exceed one thousand
dollars ($1,000) or by imprisonment in the county jail for not more
than one year, or by both such fine and imprisonment.

As used in this section, sniperscope means any attachment, device
or similar contrivance designed for or adaptable to use on a firearm
which, through the use of a projected infrared light source and
electronic telescope, enables the operator thereof to visually
determine and locate the presence of objects during the nighttime.

This section shall not prohibit the authorized use or possession
of such sniperscope by a member of the armed forces of the United
States or by police officers, peace officers, or law enforcement
officers authorized by the properly constituted authorities for the
enforcement of law or ordinances; nor shall this section prohibit the
use or possession of such sniperscope when used solely for
scientific research or educational purposes."

-Note that a "sniperscope" does not have to be actually mounted on a weapon in order to be a no-go. It just has to be "designed for" or "adaptable to" a weapon.

-To me, it seems targeted at active NV scopes using an IR illuminator, rather than IR lasers. But it doesn't make an explicit distinction between the two, so I would not push it.

-Also, you could reasonably argue that the definition of "telescope" only includes magnified optics, and not 1X. Of course, law enforcement and the D.A. might feel differently.

-Even further, it begs the question of whether an IR laser (or even illuminator) on a weapon, plus NVG's worn on your head (since they aren't adaptable to a weapon) would constitute a sniperscope.

It's obviously a very, very poorly written law and I wonder how many LEO's are even aware of it and enforce it. Quality NV is outside of most shooters' budgets anyway, so I don't see it coming up all that often. But still, I would hate to be the test case.

brando
10-09-2009, 8:30 AM
Still, you will find IR lasers marked "LEO/MIL Only" for the most part and not for export either. There's a reason we like to keep our night fighting advantage close hold ;)

technique
10-09-2009, 10:28 AM
Still, you will find IR lasers marked "LEO/MIL Only" for the most part and not for export either. There's a reason we like to keep our night fighting advantage close hold ;)

Thats the reason I like to have NV/illuminator/and lasers, I don't want a disadvantage on anyone....And some officers don't mind getting em for you;)

The illuminator and PVS14s are all I will risk playing with....the laser is in reserve.

badicedog
10-09-2009, 11:15 AM
Still, you will find IR lasers marked "LEO/MIL Only" for the most part and not for export either. There's a reason we like to keep our night fighting advantage close hold ;)

You will also find Eotech's marked "LEO/MIL Only":D

badicedog
10-09-2009, 11:28 AM
FDA regulates lasers, note: FDA does not make law, only recommendations. FDA does recommends that retailers/manufacturers not sell directly to the public. It has to do with the fact that any laser with power output >5mw will cause irreversible eye damage

CHS
10-09-2009, 12:10 PM
It has to do with the fact that any laser with power output >5mw will CAN cause irreversible eye damage

Fixed it for you.

CHS
10-09-2009, 12:16 PM
Here's the most important part that most people gloss over:

nor shall this section prohibit the use or possession of such sniperscope when used solely for scientific research or educational purposes.

When you're practicing shooting, it is an "educational purposes"

So the law has absolutely no teeth whatsoever.

There are quite a few other holes in it as well.

Army
10-09-2009, 4:34 PM
The law concerns illumination, not designation.

The law was written in the Generation I days, which required a separate IR illumination source. A IR laser does NOT illuminate, it only pinpoints.

Current GenIII and GenIV needs no dedicated light source, background light being more than efficient.

Telperion
10-09-2009, 5:23 PM
There is misinformation in this thread. Complete laser devices are regulated at the federal level. This is from a response I wrote on THR about the subject:

Since 1968, the FDA's Center for Devices and Radiological Health (CDRH) has regulated laser products in the US. Laser devices are given classifications based on power and wavelength, and each class requires certain safety features. Here's the rub: visible laser aiming modules are classified as IIIa devices, but infrared lasers are classified as IIIb. Class IIIb lasers are required to have significantly more safety features such as a key lock and remote disconnector.

Now, key locks and remote switches can get kind of clunky, especially on a weapon-mounted device, so Insight applied for a variance to the rules. They argued that law enforcement/military training was a sufficient substitute for the safety requirements. Hence, they cannot sell them to private citizens.

Bottom line: your government thinks you're too dumb to own a IR laser. Possession of one is NOT illegal, but you will have to find somebody willing to sell you one. Or if you have some electronics knowledge, you can try building one from parts, since laser diodes and tubes are not regulated.

duc748bip
10-09-2009, 8:34 PM
Any laser aiming device will damage your eye,that is way you don't stare into the beam. IR are more dangerous because even if u don't see it. it will still burn your retina. I guess you can still buy them. just a word of caution.
Many outfit won't sell nightvision rifle scope in CA. But many Nightvision monoscope can be mounted behind a Eotech ot Aimpoint. Don't know what the law says about that?

Purple K
10-09-2009, 9:17 PM
Thermal imagers don't require any light or an illuminator, and their legallity is not in question.

pottymouth310
10-09-2009, 9:43 PM
Does that mean I can't run a PEQ2 on my AR on a public range?

packnrat
10-10-2009, 4:38 AM
I would love to get a thermal set up.
But the cost, maks a great scope look cheep in price.

Afterburnt
10-10-2009, 6:03 AM
who sells the Thermal imagers, I've seen em somewhere but I dont remember exactly?

redcliff
10-10-2009, 6:23 AM
Thermal imagers don't require any light or an illuminator, and their legallity is not in question.

Unless you're hunting Big Game as defined by CDFG.. It's illegal to use any NV device for hunting them per CDFG including passive NV and Thermal.

Under 99% of circumstances 3rd gen NV devices don't require any illumination either, although its significantly harder to spot targets with them versus Thermal.

(h) Except as otherwise provided, while taking or attempting to take big game under the provisions of Section 353 or
Section 354, Title 14, CCR, it is unlawful to use any device or devices which: 1) throw, cast or project an artificial light or
electronically alter or intensify a light source for the purpose of visibly enhancing an animal; or 2) throw, cast or project
an artificial light or electronically alter or intensify a light source for the purpose of providing a visible point of aim
directly on a animal. Devices commonly referred to as “sniperscopes”, night vision scopes or binoculars, or those utilizing
infra-red, heat sensing or other non-visible spectrum light technology used for the purpose of visibly enhancing an animal
or providing a visible point of aim directly on a animal are prohibited and may not be possessed while taking or
attempting to take big game. Devices commonly referred to as laser rangefinders, “red-dot” scopes with self-illuminating
reticles, and fiberoptic sights with self illuminating sight or pins which do not throw, cast or project a visible light onto an
animal are permitted.
NOTE: Authority cited: Sections 200, 202 and 203, Fish and Game Code. Reference: Sections 200, 202, 23, 203.1, 207,
2005 and 3950, Fish and Game Code.

Purple K
10-11-2009, 7:39 PM
Does that mean I can't run a PEQ2 on my AR on a public range?

No! The PEQ2 is a night vision device (light amplification/IR illumination). Completely different from thermal imaging.

badicedog
10-11-2009, 8:10 PM
Does that mean I can't run a PEQ2 on my AR on a public range?

Why would you want to? It's only visible with night vision (pvs-7/14). Plus, helmet mounted NV is awkward to use with a rifle.

PRODRIVE
10-11-2009, 8:24 PM
shooting m16 with PEQ and PVS 14 :D
it's very fun to shoot.

badicedog
10-11-2009, 9:48 PM
shooting m16 with PEQ and PVS 14 :D
it's very fun to shoot.

Do you wear PVS on left eye while shooting? I found using on right eye, was awkward for me.

PRODRIVE
10-12-2009, 8:05 AM
i wear on my right eye, but i also mount it on rifle.

lorax3
10-12-2009, 9:18 AM
For those that own a PEQ are you LEO or active duty military?

If not, were you able to buy one as a civilian?

I would love to get one, while avoiding the legal issue of course. :)

Haplo
10-12-2009, 5:40 PM
As used in this section, sniperscope means any attachment, device or similar contrivance designed for or adaptable to use on a firearmwhich, through the use of a projected infrared light source and electronic telescope, enables the operator thereof to visually determine and locate the presence of objects during the nighttime.

The device merely needs to be adaptable to use on a firearm; and this device must have an electronic telescope.

This does not make illegal an infrared laser mounted on a firearm, those don't have electronic telescopes, just a light source.

Thus under this law, you can have your IR Laser on the gun, and wear a head-mounted night vision system provided that NV system isn't designed for or adaptable for use on a firearm. So just get a head mounted system and your good to go.