PDA

View Full Version : Are early Winchester Model 1912's CA Legal?


Chris M
10-08-2009, 10:24 AM
I was looking over the "CA Shotgun AW ID Flowchart" and noticed #2:

"Does the firearm shoot more than one shot with a single function of the trigger?" Yes = Illegal.

Early Winchester Model 12 pump shotguns can do just that. You can simply hold the trigger down, and keep pumping until the magazine is empty. I believe the triggers in these models were modified around the 1930's, so later guns didn't have this feature.

If this feature makes the model 12 illegal in CA, is there a way to alter the gun to prevent this from happening - thus making the gun legal?

bwiese
10-08-2009, 10:26 AM
It's not semiauto and still requires manual cycling thru the pump. And you can then say the pump is the trigger anyway....

m1match
10-08-2009, 10:28 AM
CA AW shotgun laws are limited to semiauto shotguns so the Win. Model 12, which like the Ithaca 37, does not have a disconnector, wouldn't be affected.

Chris M
10-08-2009, 10:40 AM
I didn't really think I'd run into any legal issues if I brought the gun to the range, or went hunting with it, but that part of the AW ID Flowchart just jumped out at me.

Just wanted some clarification.

Thanks,
Chris.

ke6guj
10-08-2009, 10:42 AM
It's not semiauto and still requires manual cycling thru the pump. And you can then say the pump is the trigger anyway....yup, Bill nailed it.

CA AW shotgun laws are limited to semiauto shotguns so the Win. Model 12, which like the Ithaca 37, does not have a disconnector, wouldn't be affected.

That question is covering the MG question, not an AW question.

Chris M
10-08-2009, 10:45 AM
It's not semiauto and still requires manual cycling thru the pump. And you can then say the pump is the trigger anyway....

I had to ask because the flowchart doesn't ask whether it's a Semi-Auto until #11.

So, it seems like the legality of the model 12 would basically come down the the definition of "Trigger".

gun toting monkeyboy
10-08-2009, 10:46 AM
It is not an MG question either. The old auto triggers were pretty common on shotguns back then. I have a bunch of old Stevens 520s that do the same thing. You have to manually cycle the action between shots. While it is fun, it isn't all that useful. Successive shots tend to be off target to the side by up to several feet at 25 yards. But you sure can empty the gun pretty quick that way.

-Mb

ke6guj
10-08-2009, 11:17 AM
It is not an MG question either. The old auto triggers were pretty common on shotguns back then.I wrote that question on the shotgun legality flowchart to exclude machine guns from the chart. My intention was not to include Auto-triggers on pump-action shotguns, which are legal. Perhaps I'll need to further clarify that question.

dantodd
10-08-2009, 12:24 PM
Maybe just move the "semi-auto" question up?

ke6guj
10-08-2009, 12:30 PM
I think that would just cause way more work to get all the logic flows to work again, because, as it is now, if you get to the semi-auto question and say no, then you are done. But if you moved the semi-auto question up, you still have to deal with all the questions that are currently above it.

I think it would be way easier to try to explain that pump-action auto-triggers do not fall under the MG question.

ke6guj
10-08-2009, 12:40 PM
thinking about it more, you can't even try to limit it to semi-auto shotguns, because, IIRC, a double-barrel shotgun set up to fire both barrels at the same time with one trigger has been ruled an MG in the past.