PDA

View Full Version : A question for AK gurus


lomalinda
10-07-2009, 8:07 PM
The following came from AK47world (http://www.ak47world.com/rifles.html):
"What does receiver thickness and the lack of "mickey-mouse" anti-trip device that only complicates your trigger group, mean to AKM performance???

Simple, if you only fire your thinner receiver AKM variants lightly, you usually won't have any problems.

But if you need more out of your AK, like sustained fire/rapid fire, like with 75, or 100 round drums, or with other "extreme situations", the thicker 1.5mm stamped receivers found in Norinco, Valmet/Sako, and Zastava/Serbian rifles are more durable.

This means the thicker 1.5mm receiver AK's are a lot less likely to experience malfunctions like the thinner 1mm receiver AK's do, when the thicker receiver Chinese, Yugoslavian, or Valmet's get hot under rapid fire, sustained-fire situations, because there's less "fatigue", thus "flex" & jams, in the thicker 1.5mm steel receivers, than in the thinner-walled receivers of the Warsaw-Pact AKM-type rifles."


Do any commonly used stamped commercial receivers feature >1 mm thick walls, and, perhaps most important, is this really an issue with a properly heat-treated receiver? At a recent BP, the topic was broached and several people were of the view that a focally-treated receiver would flex if used for sustained periods, and was generally of lower quality longeveity-wise than commercial counterparts.

69Mach1
10-07-2009, 8:10 PM
There are commercially available thicker US made AKM receivers. In regards to 1 mm AK receivers, I think a 60 year run says alot.

lomalinda
10-07-2009, 8:28 PM
Are there any other factors aside from wall thickness that might have influenced that author's views that come to one's mind?

Perhaps there was a different manner of processing the receivers that accounts for this finding?

Or is the site positing an unsubstantiated view?

:confused:

SJgunguy24
10-07-2009, 8:35 PM
OK so a thicker receiver is stronger? Well yeah of course the 1.5mm gonna be stronger than a 1mm. If you really want to build a strong AK use a milled receiver.
I built up a NDS1 and that thing is tough. I think if you have a full heat treated 1mm reciever that thing will be around long after your gone. I checked into building on a 1.6mm receiver and the only bonus was not having to heat treat the the axis pin holes.

lomalinda
10-07-2009, 10:01 PM
So I just read that the thicker 1.5 mm receivers of the Yugos were designed that way primarily to buttress the receiver against the forces generated by the grenade launcher. This makes sense intuitively, and it seems that although there certainly should be extra strength imparted by a 50% thicker receiver, the question of it being important in sustained use is not so clear.

69Mach1 points out, quite correctly, that there have been many AKs made that were stamped and built as machine guns for foreign use that worked just fine. Given the post-1986 limitations we suffer in this country, for a person who partakes in training courses (with a legal semi-auto bearing a 1 mm receiver) that involve lots of rounds during exercises, this may not be as big an issue as alleged in the above linked site.

Any other views on the subject are welcome. It's probably more of an issue with machine guns, which is not the topic, but it's interesting nonetheless when discussing semi-automatics.

69Mach1
10-07-2009, 10:06 PM
lomalinda, could you please fix your link so that I can read the rest of the blog? Thanks.

SJgunguy24
10-07-2009, 10:08 PM
Are you worried about a homebuild? If you are just pick up a NDS reciever.
I'd have to say that a fully heat treated 1mm is just as strong as a 1.5mm. Even on Nodak's website they say the NDS 1 is suitable for a FA build.

technique
10-07-2009, 10:10 PM
So I just read that the thicker 1.5 mm receivers of the Yugos were designed that way primarily to buttress the receiver against the forces generated by the grenade launcher. This makes sense intuitively, and it seems that although there certainly should be extra strength imparted by a 50% thicker receiver, the question of it being important in sustained use is not so clear.

69Mach1 points out, quite correctly, that there have been many AKs made that were stamped and built as machine guns for foreign use that worked just fine. Given the post-1986 limitations we suffer in this country, for a person who partakes in training courses (with a legal semi-auto bearing a 1 mm receiver) that involve lots of rounds during exercises, this may not be as big an issue as alleged in the above linked site.

Any other views on the subject are welcome. It's probably more of an issue with machine guns, which is not the topic, but it's interesting nonetheless when discussing semi-automatics.



I noticed a few AKs (possibly transferable) at my dealer yesterday....Maybe he would let me look at em tomorrow and measure? Is that what you are interested in?

I think AKs, home built today on 1mm flats aren't generally completely heat treated. Just the trigger/hammer holes and rails is all I ever see the average home builder do.....unless you have access to a kiln or have that type of equipment because you build a lot.

lomalinda
10-07-2009, 10:12 PM
Mach:

http://www.ak47world.com/

Use the "AK 47 Rifles" link. The stuff down near the bottom is what I clipped.

lomalinda
10-07-2009, 10:19 PM
"I noticed a few AKs (possibly transferable) at my dealer yesterday...."

So your dealer not only has pre-1986 transferables but has post-1986 dealer samples/stuff he makes for LE/military use, too?

Damn, promised land indeed, my man!

:43:

Anyway, yeah, it would be interesting to see what the thickness of the reg MGs is for comparison purposes. Seems if they're good enough for that kind of use, it would be sufficient for a Front Site class.

technique
10-07-2009, 10:24 PM
I'll see what I can do. I'm not 100% sure if they were civilian or dealer transferable or not but I'm sure he wouldn't mind me having a look.

I think most AKs should be sufficient for a class. Even on the 1mm so long as properly heat treated. I have only read of the "egging" of FCG holes with poor heat treated Receivers.

SJgunguy24
10-07-2009, 10:25 PM
Build on a NDS.

B Strong
10-08-2009, 9:34 AM
The following came from AK47world (http://www.ak47world.com/rifles.html):
"What does receiver thickness and the lack of "mickey-mouse" anti-trip device that only complicates your trigger group, mean to AKM performance???

Simple, if you only fire your thinner receiver AKM variants lightly, you usually won't have any problems.

But if you need more out of your AK, like sustained fire/rapid fire, like with 75, or 100 round drums, or with other "extreme situations", the thicker 1.5mm stamped receivers found in Norinco, Valmet/Sako, and Zastava/Serbian rifles are more durable.

This means the thicker 1.5mm receiver AK's are a lot less likely to experience malfunctions like the thinner 1mm receiver AK's do, when the thicker receiver Chinese, Yugoslavian, or Valmet's get hot under rapid fire, sustained-fire situations, because there's less "fatigue", thus "flex" & jams, in the thicker 1.5mm steel receivers, than in the thinner-walled receivers of the Warsaw-Pact AKM-type rifles."


Do any commonly used stamped commercial receivers feature >1 mm thick walls, and, perhaps most important, is this really an issue with a properly heat-treated receiver? At a recent BP, the topic was broached and several people were of the view that a focally-treated receiver would flex if used for sustained periods, and was generally of lower quality longeveity-wise than commercial counterparts.

The anti-trip parts are designed to keep the rifle from firing out of battery during f/a fire, and aren't needed on a semi-auto.

Don't worry about receiver wall thickness on a semi - there are plenty of 20 year old "real" AK's with 1mm receivers that haven't seen any PM, have been fired with corrosive ammo, and have been fired in f/a till the handguard caught fire.

Those rifles are still in service.

AM9000
10-08-2009, 10:04 AM
A full auto Ak with a flaming handguard... Now that's an image. Enough to keep a soldier up at night. Just sounds evil.

drummerdude1188
10-08-2009, 10:28 AM
I think a 60 year run says alot.

This.

Flopper
10-08-2009, 10:49 AM
A full auto Ak with a flaming handguard... Now that's an image. Enough to keep a soldier up at night. Just sounds evil.

And here's the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNAohtjG14c&feature=PlayList&p=A2465BD5185CFDF9&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=5

scotthmt
10-09-2009, 12:55 AM
And here's the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNAohtjG14c&feature=PlayList&p=A2465BD5185CFDF9&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=5

everyone says that video is fake, but i think it's real. the "drum is an airsoft drum hear the bbs rattling?' people have obviously not handled or used a romy drum for the AK

supermario
10-09-2009, 5:19 AM
I have a bulgarian drum and i think it rattles too! you got 75rounds of ammo in there and the rounds arent held in place like a typical magazine, so i think its normal to rattle?

69Mach1
10-09-2009, 7:49 AM
I have a bulgarian drum and i think it rattles too! you got 75rounds of ammo in there and the rounds arent held in place like a typical magazine, so i think its normal to rattle?

Yes, absolutely normal.

B Strong
10-09-2009, 7:55 AM
everyone says that video is fake, but i think it's real. the "drum is an airsoft drum hear the bbs rattling?' people have obviously not handled or used a romy drum for the AK

Having played "Cook the Krink" with a post sample, I can attest that this is the usual end result of drum dumps in full auto.