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View Full Version : Gun safes! Glorified cabinets???


tvfreakarms
10-06-2009, 5:53 PM
Ok, i'm not here to bash any particular company that makes safes. But i've seen videos of people prying these safes open like it's nothing. Yea they can withstand fire for up to 2 to 3hrs. But lets face it, most likely you have a better chance of some burglars taking your whole safe and being bolted down before it gets burn down.

I'm sure if you give a burglar enough time he would eventually pry it open. But my thing is, some people pay thousand plus for a good safe to several thousands for a really good safe, but in the end it really doesn't take much for a burglar to pry it open. Yea they say to bolt it down and what not but I figure if your paying that kind of money it shouldn't be that easy for them to pry those safes open that easily. What do you guys think? Any lock smiths out there to give your 2 cents?

I guess it's more of a deterrent, but then again you might as well buy a cheaper safe and have a home alarm then your good to go.

Well here's a couple of safes i'm looking into:

Fort knox (http://www.ftknox.com/redesign/safes/protector.htm)
or
Patriot safes (http://www.patriotsafe.com/gun-safes-28wide.html)

Lateralus
10-06-2009, 5:59 PM
Ive seen videos of Fort Knox's safes being run over by an Abrams Tank.

With a quality safe bolted down properly into concrete, I think your firearms are pretty well secured. A safe is also a deterrent. Many home invasion robberies are done quickly, and if a burglar cannot sevure any firearms or safes quickly, they will not do it. Plus, in order to take a safe or pry it open, they will usually bring specific tools to do so. If someone broke into your home and pried open a safe, they knew it was there and came specifically for it.

Librarian
10-06-2009, 6:00 PM
Drop into the Safes forum - and look at http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=1495010
and
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=135167

joemama
10-06-2009, 6:34 PM
They prevent the smash and grab type of burgleries. I finally have one and it gives me a little more peace of mind.

Afterburnt
10-06-2009, 6:42 PM
Ive seen videos of Fort Knox's safes being run over by an Abrams Tank.


They were not in somebody's house were they? Is Janet Reno back or something? LOL

floogy
10-06-2009, 6:45 PM
Yeah, i saw the same videos but the thing is that most safes can't be broken in to that easily. Are usually bolted down and better construction. Anything can be broken yes, but not anyone can. I would bet a good safe like browning or ft knox etc would defeat 98% of burglars. Besides, someone with those kind of safe breaking skills would probably know before hand what you had. If i wouldnt trust someone with my SSN or credit card i wont be telling them about my guns.

justin_5585
10-06-2009, 7:00 PM
Plus, at least in my neighborhood, when I get a safe it will be for these reasons, in this order:

To protect my guns and documents from fire
To consolidate everything into one place (rather than guns all over the house - and no, I don't have children here ever)
Theft

As you can see, theft is the least of my worries, and although I'm not complacent, it's not my top concern in this area.

Casual_Shooter
10-06-2009, 7:31 PM
That video shows an entry level safe. Nothing is foolproof. You can only do as much as you can.

Most of the real safe guys will tell you that if you want a safe to protect items from a fire, get a "Fire" safe. If you want to protect items from a bad guy, get a burglar resistant safe. While there are safes made to do both, it is generally understood that they do not do both things - fire and theft resistance- as well as a safe designed to do one thing.

Install the safe (and don't tell anyone.... anyone about it) in a secure area which would prevent prying and your chances of someone getting into it go down. Buy a high quality safe (Graffunder etc) and your chances of someone getting into it go way down. These safes weigh 1500+ lbs, so even if they aren't bolted down, getting them out of your house would be very difficult.

If they want it, though, they'll get it.

swerv512
10-06-2009, 7:47 PM
I have a safe just to help me sleep better at night and when i'm not at home, knowing that i did my part in helping to keep my valuables safe and firearms from criminals...
safes are just a deterrent. anyone with enough time will get into the safe. if you really value your firearms, insure them- that way if there is a claim, you'll have the means to replace what you lost...

X-NewYawker
10-06-2009, 8:01 PM
What brand was so easy to open?

bolantej
10-06-2009, 9:29 PM
I think these folks are right when they say it's just to keep the smash and grabbers form getting your stuff. who's to say a determined criminal doesn't come equipped with a cutting torch or some other method of getting into that thing?

you could always pile drive the foundation of your house and cement the safe into the ground and hide it under some furniture so no one would even know it was there.

dadoody
10-07-2009, 12:39 AM
I think these folks are right when they say it's just to keep the smash and grabbers form getting your stuff. who's to say a determined criminal doesn't come equipped with a cutting torch or some other method of getting into that thing?

you could always pile drive the foundation of your house and cement the safe into the ground and hide it under some furniture so no one would even know it was there.

Have a floor safe in the garage or closet. Most Burglaries are smash and grabs. Unless you're bragging to everyone in town about your multi-million dollar gold stash in a specific location, I don't see anyone losing their valuables in a floor safe.

Back, in the LA riots, a Korean Check cashing business was hit by the rioters. The shop keepers did it right: they had most of their cash in a hidden floor safe, but they left a few thousand in the above ground safe as a decoy. The looters pulled the entire safe and smashed it open and got the few grand and left, while the majority of the cash was recovered afterwards by the shop owners and their friends (who all came armed to the teeth).

B Strong
10-07-2009, 5:50 AM
Ok, i'm not here to bash any particular company that makes safes. But i've seen videos of people prying these safes open like it's nothing. Yea they can withstand fire for up to 2 to 3hrs. But lets face it, most likely you have a better chance of some burglars taking your whole safe and being bolted down before it gets burn down.

I'm sure if you give a burglar enough time he would eventually pry it open. But my thing is, some people pay thousand plus for a good safe to several thousands for a really good safe, but in the end it really doesn't take much for a burglar to pry it open. Yea they say to bolt it down and what not but I figure if your paying that kind of money it shouldn't be that easy for them to pry those safes open that easily. What do you guys think? Any lock smiths out there to give your 2 cents?

I guess it's more of a deterrent, but then again you might as well buy a cheaper safe and have a home alarm then your good to go.

Well here's a couple of safes i'm looking into:

Fort knox (http://www.ftknox.com/redesign/safes/protector.htm)
or
Patriot safes (http://www.patriotsafe.com/gun-safes-28wide.html)

The beauty of a safe is that it keeps the honest people and the meth heads out of your business.

99.9% of the burglars that operate today are petty dope heads, they don't have the skills or paitence to "work" a safe to get it open. If they can't carry the thing out, it's staying where it is.

New area for the safe makers is guitar specific safes for collectors. They also break it off in the buyers. My cousin looked at the guitar specific safes, overpriced by at least 2K $ in the ones he looked at, and simply bought a good fireproof gun safe and made his own interior to hold his guitars.

Casual_Shooter
10-07-2009, 9:17 AM
What brand was so easy to open?

I believe it was an entry level Liberty.... but any safe (RSC) you buy from Home Depot, Costco etc. would be defeated in a similar fashion just as easily.

The thing to take away from that video is that the bad guys had LOTS of room to pry the thing open. If it were bolted in a corner with the "pryable" side against a wall, it would have been MUCH harder to open.

Saym14
10-07-2009, 10:54 AM
where is the link to the videos?

BrowningTBolt
10-07-2009, 11:03 AM
Ok, i'm not here to bash any particular company that makes safes. But i've seen videos of people prying these safes open like it's nothing. Yea they can withstand fire for up to 2 to 3hrs. But lets face it, most likely you have a better chance of some burglars taking your whole safe and being bolted down before it gets burn down.

I'm sure if you give a burglar enough time he would eventually pry it open. But my thing is, some people pay thousand plus for a good safe to several thousands for a really good safe, but in the end it really doesn't take much for a burglar to pry it open. Yea they say to bolt it down and what not but I figure if your paying that kind of money it shouldn't be that easy for them to pry those safes open that easily. What do you guys think? Any lock smiths out there to give your 2 cents?

I guess it's more of a deterrent, but then again you might as well buy a cheaper safe and have a home alarm then your good to go.

Well here's a couple of safes i'm looking into:

Fort knox (http://www.ftknox.com/redesign/safes/protector.htm)
or
Patriot safes (http://www.patriotsafe.com/gun-safes-28wide.html)

You make a bunch of assumptions in your post with no support. WHICH safe did you see easily pried open? I have seen a video of a safe being pried in less than 5 minutes. It was in the middle of a room and then pushed over so the door was facing up. Even the crappy safe in that video would be difficult to pry open like they did in the video if it was bolted to the floor and placed in a corner or partially built in to something.

So, which safe did you see broken into? What brand? Model?

Of course any safe can be breached with time and the proper tools. Hell, a steel cutting saw can be used to just go through the body on nearly any safe that you would have in your home. Of course, that takes time, power tools, and makes a **** load of noise.

Casual_Shooter
10-07-2009, 11:03 AM
Search for Security on Sale via youtube.

MasterYong
10-07-2009, 11:09 AM
keep in mind as well that the vids you saw of safes being easily pried open may not have been of actual safes.

I was looking through a Cabela's catalog recently and noticed that the first 5-6 "safes" listed were only about $300-400 which didn't make sense. Upon reading the ad more closely I realized these were "gun cabinets" that looked like safes.

I think a lot of people, to save money, buy these gun cabinets (which are basically glorified filing cabinets, but the bear the same logo as a prominent safe manufacturer) and then don't realize that they didn't buy a safe. I'm willing to bet that some businesses even outright advertise these cabinets, which outwardly look very similar to a heavy-duty safe, as being real safes to make a buck.

One of those 500lb+, giant safes with the 2" bolts that close all the way around the door shouldn't be that easy to pry open...

Casual_Shooter
10-07-2009, 11:14 AM
keep in mind as well that the vids you saw of safes being easily pried open may not have been of actual safes.

I was looking through a Cabela's catalog recently and noticed that the first 5-6 "safes" listed were only about $300-400 which didn't make sense. Upon reading the ad more closely I realized these were "gun cabinets" that looked like safes.

I think a lot of people, to save money, buy these gun cabinets (which are basically glorified filing cabinets, but the bear the same logo as a prominent safe manufacturer) and then don't realize that they didn't buy a safe. I'm willing to bet that some businesses even outright advertise these cabinets, which outwardly look very similar to a heavy-duty safe, as being real safes to make a buck.

One of those 500lb+, giant safes with the 2" bolts that close all the way around the door shouldn't be that easy to pry open...

Keep in mind, none of these are "Safes". They are Residential Security Containers or RSC's.

A "500lb giant safe with 2" bolts" could be pryed open as easily as the one in that video. 500lb's would be considered "light" in the safe world and at that weight, would be an indication that very lightweight material (i.e. thin steel) was used.

A "giant" "Safe" with 2" bolts would probably weigh more like 3500lbs.

dot429
10-07-2009, 11:15 AM
Here's a Liberty safe commercial:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2EyFNCAX3s


Here's a fun one on a little "safe" that is garbage, potato anyone?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99Q3aDy-BUc&feature=related


At the end of the day, if someone wants to get in a safe badly enough, and they have enough time, they will do it. Have a safe, have insurance, and don't advertise to your neighbors that you are a gun owner. Having an alarm system, a big dog, and a "Beware of Dog" sign is always a good idea too.


Best,

Michael

MasterYong
10-07-2009, 11:20 AM
Keep in mind, none of these are "Safes". They are Residential Security Containers or RSC's.

A "500lb giant safe with 2" bolts" could be pryed open as easily as the one in that video. 500lb's would be considered "light" in the safe world and at that weight, would be an indication that very lightweight material (i.e. thin steel) was used.

A "giant" "Safe" with 2" bolts would probably weigh more like 3500lbs.

I wasn't meaning to indicate that a giant safe would be 500lbs. The 500 pounders I'm talking about are the ones made by browning and advertised as "8 gun safes" that probably hold 5.

Also, you're referring to a video that no one posted. "That video"???

Lastly- what makes it a safe then, in your own vernacular???

odysseus
10-07-2009, 11:31 AM
Not all RSC safes are created equal and RSC safes are minimal safes at best. Most new higher-end RSC safes have protections against simply pry bar attacks like the Fort Knox ones you linked too. However there are other brute force methods to compromise a RSC safe. By all means RSCs must be bolted down. As also mentioned, most residential smash and grab burglars are not prepared to tear into one either if they find it, so it is a reasonable defense - but not a guarantee.

However security is in layers. If even finding the safe or getting into the room it is in is difficult, then you have added time and difficulty. If there is an alarm system (which is a good idea anyway for everything else you have too also including fire alert) going off and calling the police, they have little time to hang out and even in most likelihood will avoid your location, unless you are a specific target.

Most home thieves break in and head right to your master bedroom and office. They are looking for easy to move and easy to fence items. They normally don't want to spend any more time there than their greed allows them to.

Casual_Shooter
10-07-2009, 11:46 AM
You said giant 500lb safe... don't know how I could have taken it any other way.

"That video" is in reference to the one people were discussing about a safe being pried open. Thought that was obvious. Guess for some it wouldn't be.

A "Safe" is a classification of the container as is RSC. If you look on the door of the units sold at Costco, Walmart etc, you will see the RSC label.

It's not really my vernacular. It's a classification the industry uses. But since you asked. A safe in my vernacular is B rated and costs a minimum of $5,000 (for the size I would need) and is made of a minimum 1/4" steel with an even thicker door and weighs 1500+lbs. An RSC of that size costs $500-$700 and is made of 12ga steel and weighs 300-500lbs.

My understanding of the classifications comes from reading the posts of well-known safe experts on THR- Frank aka a1abdj for one- and others.

RSC "safes" are essentially "rated" at 5 minutes with a screwdriver and a hammer. Chances are most of the "safes" in the $250 range are just cabinets, and probably wouldn't last longer than a few minutes against a tire iron.

Here's a pretty good read that explains the differences.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=351112

qaz987
10-07-2009, 12:07 PM
Any safe can be broken into but in some situations even the cheap boxes work well. I bolted in a Stack-on in my hunting van and I'm still happy.
:mnl:

MasterYong
10-07-2009, 12:37 PM
"That video" is in reference to the one people were discussing about a safe being pried open. Thought that was obvious. Guess for some it wouldn't be.



No reason to be intentionally rude, man. There is still a question in this thread as to what video people are talking about. Obviously the OP mentioned a video, but you referenced "that video" like you'd seen it- like it'd been clarified. I was hoping for a link, not posturing.

CSACANNONEER
10-07-2009, 12:43 PM
I keep "several" pounds of black powder (not smokeless) in various key places in my safe just in case anyone decides to torch it. Yep, I might not be able to use my guns after that but, no one else will either.

Casual_Shooter
10-07-2009, 12:45 PM
No reason to be intentionally rude, man. There is still a question in this thread as to what video people are talking about. Obviously the OP mentioned a video, but you referenced "that video" like you'd seen it- like it'd been clarified. I was hoping for a link, not posturing.

Wasn't trying to be rude... I was admitting I should have clarified what I was talking about. :)

Here's the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBhOjWHbD6M

MasterYong
10-07-2009, 12:54 PM
Wasn't trying to be rude... I was admitting I should have clarified what I was talking about. :)

Here's the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBhOjWHbD6M

Sweeeeeet. That's what I'm talking about: stuff getting ripped up!

I really wish they'd disclose what brand that was that got ripped open, though I guess that'd open them up to legal troubles. It doesn't look, even in the tiny video screen, like it's as robust as most sold in stores. There aren't even bolts going all the way around the door, just on the one side. Still interesting, but from the video alone it looks like they used about the weakest "safe" they could find.

Caeser2001
10-07-2009, 3:43 PM
That's why you go through your ceiling from the basement and through the wall in the next room to make sure they are secured, very secured ;)

xibunkrlilkidsx
10-07-2009, 4:55 PM
Ok, i'm not here to bash any particular company that makes safes. But i've seen videos of people prying these safes open like it's nothing. Yea they can withstand fire for up to 2 to 3hrs. But lets face it, most likely you have a better chance of some burglars taking your whole safe and being bolted down before it gets burn down.

I'm sure if you give a burglar enough time he would eventually pry it open. But my thing is, some people pay thousand plus for a good safe to several thousands for a really good safe, but in the end it really doesn't take much for a burglar to pry it open. Yea they say to bolt it down and what not but I figure if your paying that kind of money it shouldn't be that easy for them to pry those safes open that easily. What do you guys think? Any lock smiths out there to give your 2 cents?

I guess it's more of a deterrent, but then again you might as well buy a cheaper safe and have a home alarm then your good to go.

Well here's a couple of safes i'm looking into:

Fort knox (http://www.ftknox.com/redesign/safes/protector.htm)
or
Patriot safes (http://www.patriotsafe.com/gun-safes-28wide.html)


that safe was a cheap import model. it had a thin 12 or 14 gauge door with small bolts. you relly think that burlgers are going to spend that much time, givent that the 2 in that video worked for the guy who you see at the begging got in there in 2 mins, you really tihnk they carry around a big digging bar and pry bar? If your really worried about someone breaking in pay the money and get a TL-rated safe,(15.30-30x6), and you have the sapre cash. If they want into the asfe they will get in,either through cutting holes in the walls or eventually drilling it opena nd not activating the re locker,it is just about stalling them long enough to where its not worth it.

We ahve a Fort Knox safe in our shopt hat we got from a gent who needed cash. it is a really nice safe and the locking system is very cool.

floogy
10-07-2009, 5:36 PM
At the end of the day, if someone wants to get in a safe badly enough, and they have enough time, they will do it. Have a safe, have insurance, and don't advertise to your neighbors that you are a gun owner. Having an alarm system, a big dog, and a "Beware of Dog" sign is always a good idea too.


Best,

Michael

Dont forget your gun and flashlight!

HappyG
10-07-2009, 6:37 PM
I don't think there are many people that can waltz into a home and walk out with a +500lb safe unless it was an inside job. As far as breaking into one..just buy a heavy weight/gauge safe and I think you're better off then buying a cheap one somewhere just to say that you have one.

People invest thousands into their collection, only to keep them in a $400 safe. Doesn't make sense.

God Bless The Mauser
10-07-2009, 8:36 PM
I think any safe can be easily broken into IF you have the right tools, know how and space to do it.

Carnivore
10-07-2009, 11:41 PM
I would venture to say that 90% of the safes you can fit in your home are not that hard to get into. Like locks on your door of your house that can be opened in 5 seconds with a pipe wrench. It really only keeps the honest people out. If they want it, they will get it if they have to hold your family at gun point to do it.

Beelzy
10-08-2009, 10:33 AM
I keep "several" pounds of black powder (not smokeless) in various key places in my safe just in case anyone decides to torch it. Yep, I might not be able to use my guns after that but, no one else will either.

Yep, that and a nice "Explosives" sign should be a good torch deterrent. :cool:

Addax
10-08-2009, 5:20 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YshDFtJ6sQ

Fort Knox Defender Series Safe being run over by a M47 Tank