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View Full Version : Are BB equiped OLL's more defendable that MMan Gripped?


cowboyup
10-05-2009, 8:20 PM
Hope this is the right place to post, this.

I know Feature Less with a MMan is just as legal as a BB equiped, but it it more or less defendable?

Thanks.

diginit
10-05-2009, 8:35 PM
No pistol grip that protrudes conspictiously beneath the action of the weapon, no flash suppressor, no forward pistol grip, no thumbhole stock, No folding or telescopic stock, No grenade launcher.
Featureless is totally legal. Providing the lower is not on THE LIST.
Any one of these and you must have a fixed mag. A MM grip alone won't do it if you have any one of these features. Otherwise, It is a good way to go.

Dr Rockso
10-05-2009, 8:45 PM
MMGs are less common, so it's possible that a LEO would be aware of BBs but not featureless rifles. Both are equally legal, and at this point in the game either option is extremely low risk.

SuperSet
10-05-2009, 8:48 PM
Someone will have to dig up the post but AFAIK, only BB rifles have ever been wrongfully seized.

bwiese
10-05-2009, 9:20 PM
They are equally legal and equally defendable.

The MM-gripped featureless rifle actually requires one step less of explanation than a BB'd rifle w/features.

The first hoop one sometimes has to go thru explaining their OLL ARs/AKs to LEOs is Harrott v. Kings County and "off list" status - regardless of features - and knowledgeably explaining that "series" doesn't apply (or better, is merely limited to the R-R & Kasler lists).

Verbal agility and being able to know/quote Harrott concepts, the generic AW definitions in 12276.1PC and regulatory definitions in 11 CCR 5499 all help defuse questioning. Haircut, a clean shirt, and avoidance of driving lowered purple Hondas with cracked windshields also helps ;)

kf6tac
10-05-2009, 10:10 PM
Defensible to whom? In a court of law, they are as Bill said equally defensible. If you're talking about the initial point of contact with a LEO, I might venture that a bullet button is more easily "defensible" in that the LEO can see for him/herself that when they push the button, the mag does not come out and is thus not removable, whereas there's no similarly easy demonstration that one can use to show a LEO that a MonsterMan grip is in compliance.

lorax3
10-05-2009, 10:51 PM
A similar thread came up a few weeks ago. I will reiterate some points I perviously made.

I think it would depend on who was examining the rifle. We know as a fact from various DOJ letters regarding the definitions and requirements of pistol grips.

If actual written 'official' proof(DOJ letter of pistol grip style grasp) had to be somehow generated then it would be easier to demonstrate how a MMG does not meet the definition of a pistol grip. However I see this as a more likely route in a court or when looked at by a DA. An unaware DA may be given the run around when calling the DOJ on bullet button legality. Although said DA will just need to read the PC and CCR, but perhaps they are lazy.

'On the street' however may be a different story. AFAIK LEO's has been issued more training memo's regarding the bullet button as how it negates 'evil features'.

So in the scenario in which my weapon was examined by a cop on the beat I would much rather have a BB installed as opposed to a MMG build with a 30rd magazine. As said LEO has received more bullet button memo's.

Of course at the end of the day if you rifle is legal, then it is legal. So choose the route that works for you.

unusedusername
10-05-2009, 11:05 PM
Haircut, a clean shirt, and avoidance of driving lowered purple Hondas with cracked windshields also helps ;)

As someone who drives a bright green, low to the ground Hyundai I represent that remark...

(Image from google images of same make/model/options car as mine, but that one has ugly rims. :P )
http://budgetautosalesappleton.com/images/tib1.jpg

I do have a nice haircut and usually "business casual" clothes tho.

The only court case I'm familiar with is a OLL with a U-15 stock. That one was ruled to be NOT an "assault rifle" per CA law. I'm not sure if any other method has case law for it.

artherd
10-06-2009, 2:05 AM
If anything the MMG is more defensible than the BB.

DOJ has made no argument against MMG type builds. They really can't, and they know it.

They briefly made a (poor and lacking in factual basis) argument against BB rifles - alleging that they had the 'capacity to accept a capacity to accept' a detachable mag. This argument is of course frivolous to the point of being insane.

The average beat cop you encounter probably knows nothing of either kind of gun. Be prepared with above-average legal knowledge on Harrott and the AW laws.

johnny_22
10-06-2009, 4:51 AM
When I take my MMG AR to Metcalf, I usually take another rifle. When the MMG AR is next to a Ruger PC-9 or a Marlin Carbine, or even the 10-22, the difference are less noticeable.

It is easy to say and show anybody questioning the legality that the MMG is essentially an uglier version of a traditional rifle.

cowboyup
10-06-2009, 1:11 PM
Interesting points all, thanks.

You just don't see as many featureless builds for sale in shope or at shows...

cowboyup
10-06-2009, 1:12 PM
They are equally legal and equally defendable.

The MM-gripped featureless rifle actually requires one step less of explanation than a BB'd rifle w/features.

The first hoop one sometimes has to go thru explaining their OLL ARs/AKs to LEOs is Harrott v. Kings County and "off list" status - regardless of features - and knowledgeably explaining that "series" doesn't apply (or better, is merely limited to the R-R & Kasler lists).

Verbal agility and being able to know/quote Harrott concepts, the generic AW definitions in 12276.1PC and regulatory definitions in 11 CCR 5499 all help defuse questioning. Haircut, a clean shirt, and avoidance of driving lowered purple Hondas with cracked windshields also helps ;)

Agreed on all accounts. Thank you.

unusedusername
10-06-2009, 6:43 PM
Interesting points all, thanks.

You just don't see as many featureless builds for sale in shope or at shows...

That is because a $40 MMG costs more then a $15 BB.

MonsterMan
10-07-2009, 6:37 AM
That is because a $40 MMG costs more then a $15 BB.

Yeah, but being able to drop your legal 30 rounders, priceless. :D

SuperSet
10-07-2009, 6:40 AM
Interesting points all, thanks.

You just don't see as many featureless builds for sale in shope or at shows...

One other factor.. most factory builds come with a flash hider and a MMG + flash hider combination is a no-no.