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b.rez
10-05-2009, 4:44 PM
hey guys i just registered to the forum about 5 mins ago lol i didnt even get a chance to introduce myself so if you guys dont mind ill make it brief since i need some expert opinions with my situation..well my name is bryan i live in the high desert, victorville to be exact..i purchased an ar 15 from a firearms dealer in oklahoma..the model of the ar is smith and wesson m&p15 ORC, before the purchase i made sure i asked all types of questions mainly if this would be california legal well the guy i spoke to said yes it was as long as it had the bullet button installed and i would only receive a 10 round mag..i finally made the purchase so i had it sent to a pawn shop close to home, it finally got here today and when i called the pawn shop to see if it was there they said yes but that according to them the rifle is not california approved, man was i pissed off :mad:..so now i dont know what to do i called the oklahoma shop but they are closed today so i had the guys hold on to it till i can get things straighten out..can you guys help me on some advice on what can i do, or how can i find out if this model is legal or not

BigBamBoo
10-05-2009, 4:51 PM
............

djleisure
10-05-2009, 4:51 PM
As far as I know, that lower is perfectly legal. Maybe they forgot to add the bullet-button before shipping it. If that's the case, then yep, it's illegal and I'm pretty sure the receiving FFL cannot just fix it (by adding a BB) then give it to you - I think it needs to come into the state that way. BUT I could be wrong on that last point.

Bug Splat
10-05-2009, 4:53 PM
Sounds like the shop you had it ship too is not up to speed on Cali law. Your best bet is to have someone here recommend you a shop in your area that is. maybe your pawn shop can ship it to the other shop in your area. Worst case is they send it back to the dealer in Oklahoma and you have to pay transfer fees again.

psssniper
10-05-2009, 4:54 PM
You should have checked with your receiving FFL and made sure they were on board before the seller sent the gun. Tell them to send it back to the seller and then have the seller resend it to an FFL with whom you have talked and confirmed that they will receive it and do the DROS. Is it going to cost you some extra? yup, live and learn. There may be a better way so lets wait and see what the calGun pre-cogs have to say.

Requiem
10-05-2009, 4:54 PM
See "ca aw id" Flow chart link at top of page. Also, next time ask the gun store/pawn shop/ffl about your out of area purchases being sent to them BEFORE you have it sent to them.

b.rez
10-05-2009, 4:57 PM
see thats exactly what ive been hearing that this model is legal, like i said i wouldnt be wasting my time or money on something that its not gonna be legal..well yes i forgot to mention that the guy at the pawn shop also mentioned that they forgot to install the bullet button..FU@#!! lol this may sound illegal but you think i can work that part out with them say if we install one right there an there?

djleisure
10-05-2009, 4:59 PM
I'm pretty sure they have already received an AW and cannot modify it without an appropriate license. They will probably just have to send it back. Whoever sent it without the BB installed should foot the bill, if you agreed on them installing it before sending it...

b.rez
10-05-2009, 5:02 PM
i did ask my pawnshop before i had it sent to them if it was okay to have them receive an ar15 they said yes as long as it was legal maybe i should of mentioned that perticular model but i didnt come to my head as i was pretty much assured by the oklahoma guys that it was.. also bug splat mentioned that maybe the pawnshop can send it out to another local shop, is that true? can that work?

b.rez
10-05-2009, 5:06 PM
man im about to say F it and just build my own dang ar..what kind of complete uppers are legal in ca? i also found this http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=34397&highlight=official+off-list+list..does any one if thats still pretty much current?

reidnez
10-05-2009, 5:08 PM
see thats exactly what ive been hearing that this model is legal, like i said i wouldnt be wasting my time or money on something that its not gonna be legal..well yes i forgot to mention that the guy at the pawn shop also mentioned that they forgot to install the bullet button..FU@#!! lol this may sound illegal but you think i can work that part out with them say if we install one right there an there?

Are we talking about a complete rifle here? If so, then the law was broken when it entered the state assembled and without bullet-button. I would think this would fall mostly on the shipping FFL. In fact, I'm pretty surprised anybody would ship a rifle to CA that way. By now, most merchants either fall into the "we don't deal with CA" camp, or the "we deal with CA and know your laws" camp.

But if I were the receiving FFL, I would probably box that weapon up and send it back the second I saw it. I hope they disassembled it since they're holding onto it! Maybe they'll work with you and install a BB, maybe they won't. Just make sure they take it apart: it isn't a rifle (and thus doesn't need a BB) unless it's assembled. Good luck!

b.rez
10-05-2009, 5:12 PM
yes it was sent as a complete rifle and yes without the bullet button..but other then it not having the bullet button and if there willing to work with me and put one on, how can i prove to them or show them that this model is legal? is there a list that i can print out or some one i can call?

djleisure
10-05-2009, 5:17 PM
You can go through the flowchart (http://calnra.com/cgi-bin/flowchart.cgi) and print the page that specifically lists AR rifles by name... but I'm guessing that is NOT the problem they are talking about. The problem is the fact that they have received an AW from another dealer.

Bud Fox
10-05-2009, 5:41 PM
I would think the FFL can install a BB, assume that's legal. That would be the biggest question in my mind. However, also make sure the stock is NOT collapsible if there's a pistol grip on it. If the rifle is over 30 inches long without the stock, and there is a collapsible stock just have them remove it, or have them take the pistol grip off and you should be good to go.

This is my understanding, but this is NOT meant to be used as legal advice. ;)

Good luck.

HKROB
10-05-2009, 5:44 PM
yes it was sent as a complete rifle and yes without the bullet button..but other then it not having the bullet button and if there willing to work with me and put one on, how can i prove to them or show them that this model is legal? is there a list that i can print out or some one i can call?

You need to slow down chief & get all your duck in a row.The part in bold is why your rifle is illegal send it back to the oki have him install a bullet button and a 10rd mag Or have him send the stripped lower receiver to your FFL.

djleisure
10-05-2009, 5:48 PM
I would think the FFL can install a BB, assume that's legal.
Unfortunately that's not true. Very few California FFL's (if any?) can receive assault weapons and modify them sale to the general public. That's why we have middle-man FFL's lined up to take care of that stuff out of state and then send it our way. Gotta play by the rules!

Turbinator
10-05-2009, 5:52 PM
Not knocking beginners, but this is exactly what happens when anyone and everyone gets onto the OLL bandwagon.

To the OP - please try to hook up with someone in your area who is knowledgeable and can help you steer through these hurdles - I think we all know this transaction could have gone smoother had the shipping FFL installed the bullet button for you, and the receiving FFL was fully aware of what was being transferred.

Good luck,
Turby

b.rez
10-05-2009, 5:57 PM
yes i guess i agree with most of you, its just that i paid for the rifle already i was waiting for the darn thing for like 6 or 7 days already and now i pretty much have to ship it back..i just dont want to get stuck with having to ship it back or worse not being to get a full refund back..like i mentioned i might just build my own ar..what are the rules and laws when it comes to complete uppers being shipped from out of state?

Bud Fox
10-05-2009, 6:05 PM
Unfortunately that's not true. Very few California FFL's (if any?) can receive assault weapons and modify them sale to the general public. That's why we have middle-man FFL's lined up to take care of that stuff out of state and then send it our way. Gotta play by the rules!

Thanks for the heads up. So the OP has no alternative but to have the rifle shipped back, that's assuming the FFL can receive the rifle in the current configuration it's in. Correct?

djleisure
10-05-2009, 6:09 PM
Thanks for the heads up. So the OP has no alternative but to have the rifle shipped back, that's assuming the FFL can receive the rifle in the current configuration it's in. Correct?
Based on all the facts that I have, that is correct. Anything else will be getting a little (or a lot) sketchy with the law.

Pistolwhipped
10-05-2009, 6:17 PM
I am surprised they wanted to ship to CA at all! Most FFL's out of state wont ship here especially when it comes to ARs from what I've found. Shipping it without a BB installed was a mistake on the shipping FFL's end. Unfortuantely like they said above its very difficult to modify it legally once its here and finding an FFL thats able to legally do that out there might be impossible.

If I were in your shoes I would send the it back tell them to F*** off and buy a lower and do it yourself. you can pick what you want on the rifle instead of what the manu thought looked good. Like Turby said find someone that knows what they are doing and that will make everything a lot better.

b.rez
10-06-2009, 10:21 AM
does anyone know if smith and wesson provides a factory mag lock on certain rifles? spoke to the dealer were i purchased my rifle and they said that smith and wesson does that for them thats why that perticular model is california complaint..im really thinking about taking this to legal authorities, cause once again according to the gun dealer theyve sent out many of these same rifles without any problems here to california..

Lancear15
10-06-2009, 10:45 AM
does anyone know if smith and wesson provides a factory mag lock on certain rifles? spoke to the dealer were i purchased my rifle and they said that smith and wesson does that for them thats why that perticular model is california complaint..im really thinking about taking this to legal authorities, cause once again according to the gun dealer theyve sent out many of these same rifles without any problems here to california..

I'm not sure you are going to get any "legal authorities" IE the DOJ to say that your rifle is specifically legal. I would tell the pawn shop to send the rifle back. Then have them ship it to an OLL friendly FFL(a non jackhole FFL). Then I would never do business with the pawn shop again. :D

ar15barrels
10-06-2009, 10:59 AM
i had it sent to a pawn shop close to home, it finally got here today and when i called the pawn shop to see if it was there they said yes but that according to them the rifle is not california approved

Ask the pawn shop to SHOW YOU the list of rifles that ARE CA APPROVED.

Here's a hint: there is no such list. ;)
There is only a list of rifles that are banned.

leelaw
10-06-2009, 11:05 AM
Ask the pawn shop to SHOW YOU the list of rifles that ARE CA APPROVED.

Here's a hint: there is no such list. ;)
There is only a list of rifles that are banned.

That's just silly.

How about a list of handguns that AREN'T on the roster?

Besides, it seems pretty clear that we're dealing with a Category 3 Assault Weapon.

leelaw
10-06-2009, 11:10 AM
see thats exactly what ive been hearing that this model is legal, like i said i wouldnt be wasting my time or money on something that its not gonna be legal..well yes i forgot to mention that the guy at the pawn shop also mentioned that they forgot to install the bullet button..FU@#!! lol this may sound illegal but you think i can work that part out with them say if we install one right there an there?

If the rifle was shipped into CA as an assault weapon, then your local FFL can't just stick on the BB and send it out your way, without a proper license and AW permitting.

man im about to say F it and just build my own dang ar..

You need to talk to the place you purchased it from and get this fixed. You've put your local FFL in a bind.

anayaphoto
10-06-2009, 12:01 PM
I recently purchased a stag AR from a guy in Washington. I had to mail him a bullet button and a 10 round mag for him to install before the rifle was shipped to my FFL. It has to be CA legal when it arrives at the CA FFL.

Vin496
10-06-2009, 12:08 PM
On the flip, can the FFL just ship it back? I thought all AWs had to go through a AW licensed FFL. Or does the fact it has never been registered in California make a difference.

Clodbuster
10-06-2009, 12:29 PM
Do you seriously want to take this to the legal authorities??? To have them hammer out if you were trying to import an AW???

Ask yourself.
A. Was the rifle disassembled as recieved by the FFL?
B. Did the rifle have a magazine lock in place as received by the FFL
C. Did the rifle have the pistol grip removed as received by the FFL

If I were in your postion, that rifle would have been shipped out of California back to the Seller without discussion if the answers to A,B,C were NO.


Clod

does anyone know if smith and wesson provides a factory mag lock on certain rifles? spoke to the dealer were i purchased my rifle and they said that smith and wesson does that for them thats why that perticular model is california complaint..im really thinking about taking this to legal authorities, cause once again according to the gun dealer theyve sent out many of these same rifles without any problems here to california..

Jbox
10-06-2009, 12:35 PM
Are out of state prices that much cheaper that one would go through this much hassle??? I can understand for something rare but for an AR? I have seen them in the market place for as low as $750 (ok only once) but they have definitely come down a lot in price.

Flying Bones
10-06-2009, 1:35 PM
You and the Shipper have a problem. Do the pawn shop a favor and send the rifle back immediately. The cat's out of the bag, no fixing it now. You need to figure out what the hell you are going to do before you RUSH OUT AND TRY TO GET IT BACK HERE AS FAST AS POSSIBLE.
This **** can get somebody in a lot of trouble. It's in your best interest to read a little, then take the appropriate steps. Odds are it's going to cost you some more money.
Don't talk to the police. Don't talk to any authorities. You will only cause problems for you and others. Dont trust Oaklahoma, a pawn shop, the BFE police or Flying Bones, read and understand the law.
1. Send it back immediately.
2. Figure out what's legal, for your own sake.
3. Talk to an OLL friendly FFL, make shipping arrangements
4. Receive.
5. Enjoy.

reidnez
10-06-2009, 1:48 PM
yes i guess i agree with most of you, its just that i paid for the rifle already i was waiting for the darn thing for like 6 or 7 days already and now i pretty much have to ship it back..i just dont want to get stuck with having to ship it back or worse not being to get a full refund back..like i mentioned i might just build my own ar..what are the rules and laws when it comes to complete uppers being shipped from out of state?

State and Federal law do not care about uppers, UNLESS they are attached to a lower. Then it is a rifle. A lower by itself is regulated, a lower mated with an upper is regulated, but an upper by itself is just a part.

An upper receiver by itself is a part, not a firearm, and there are no restrictions on buying or shipping these (no need to go through an FFL). This is where you need to know the law: slap a nifty 10.5" upper on your rifle lower, and you have just violated the National Firearms Act and committed a felony under federal law.

Please check out the flow chart and the other info on this site. David's excellent blog will also walk you through the process and give you a brief (but sufficient) overview of the legalities of all this. It can be found here:

http://blog.riflegear.com/articles/building-a-california--legal-ar-15-rifle.aspx

Once you've done that, my advice, as you've heard from others, is to tell your receiving FFL to send the rifle back ASAP. Buy a lower locally, either complete with BB or build it up yourself from a stripped receiver, and mail-order an upper.

Lesson learned for you. It pays to study up before you whip out the credit card! :D We've all been there.

WeekendWarrior
10-06-2009, 3:16 PM
WWRTW

djleisure
10-06-2009, 3:25 PM
S&W only started making AR lowers back in 2006, after the list was already out so there is no way they could be on it. What you could do is asky why they think its illegal, provide them with a copy of the list,. If it does not have a bullet button, ask if they will install one for you and drive one over there. if not ask them to ship it to a more friendly FFL? You should be good to go, I have a S&W MP15T (all of their lowers are listed as "MP-15" so the ORC designation should not affect anything) sitting in my safe at home. Not so add flames to the fire, but they are awesome rifles!
That would be great advice if the FFL didn't already receive an AW from out of state. Since they did, the best thing they (the receiving FFL) can do is send it back.

shark92651
10-06-2009, 4:57 PM
To the OP - did the rifle come in with the upper separated from the lower? I would double-check with the dealer on this. If so, in this case it would not be in an illegal configuration. The FFL could hand you the upper to take home with you and you DROS the lower as it would NOT be an assault weapon without the upper attached. During your 10 day wait, you purchase a BB and install it when you pick up your lower half and BEFORE you put your upper on. Of course all of this depends on whether or not your pawn shop dealer is going to be all paranoid on you and actually let you DROS it. Deal with people that know OLLs and you don't have to get stuck in situations such as this.

Omega13device
10-06-2009, 5:24 PM
Even if it was shipped assembled, I don't know of anything that would make it illegal to simply remove the upper from the lower. That would be a legal configuration.

For example, let's say a thug dumps an illegally configured AR over my fence one night and I find it in the morning. I remove the upper from the lower. Have I violated some PC? If you think so please cite PC, do not just assume.

Omega13device
10-06-2009, 5:34 PM
If the rifle was shipped into CA as an assault weapon, then your local FFL can't just stick on the BB and send it out your way, without a proper license and AW permitting.

It may be illegal to possess an AW without a permit, but where in the PC does it say that putting it in a legal configuration is an additional violation?

uracan
10-16-2009, 12:10 AM
poor, poor, FFL that received it, it would be interesting to see how this clusterf**k gets sorted out, keep us posted....