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tay
10-05-2009, 10:25 AM
Interesting Report:

http://www.kqed.org/epArchive/R910050833

stormy_clothing
10-05-2009, 10:29 AM
All of this wasted money and time to defeat bad behavior, why ?

How do you pay back society for taking a life, you can't there is no 30 year repayment that brings them back there gone.

When someone is convicted of murder he should be brought into the next room where they usually have a glass viewing are, sat in the electric chair and ended right then, do not pass go do not waste 1 million dollars on appeals.

Murder would stop very quickly.

vladbutsky
10-05-2009, 11:06 AM
So is microstamping law going to be enacted in a few months? My understanding was that this law requires more than one company providing the technology (i.e. no monopoly). I didn't hear any other companies to "embrace" this crap so I thought this law is doomed to die. But NPR never mentioned anything like that...
Did I miss something?

Gio
10-05-2009, 11:17 AM
Okay so go buy a pre-ban firing pin and voila! You have yourself an almost untraceable firearm. Took all but 1 second for me to think of that in my dainty little brain since I am a gun owner and must be a caveman for having them.

-Gio

CalNRA
10-05-2009, 11:29 AM
Okay so go buy a pre-ban firing pin and voila! You have yourself an almost untraceable firearm. Took all but 1 second for me to think of that in my dainty little brain since I am a gun owner and must be a caveman for having them.

-Gio

just think, Canada enacted the whole ballistic database for every handgun sold there and they almost solved a crime with it. Not quite,, but I swear they were close!!!!

(who woulda thunk that a signature based on metal scraping against each other might change after a while!!!)

mtptwo
10-05-2009, 11:30 AM
Okay so go buy a pre-ban firing pin and voila! You have yourself an almost untraceable firearm. Took all but 1 second for me to think of that in my dainty little brain since I am a gun owner and must be a caveman for having them.

-Gio

Save you just committed a felony because of this law.

RRangel
10-05-2009, 11:34 AM
Technically it shouldn't be going into effect. I suspect the state will run into legal problems if they try something funny.

Spending money on things that don't work is the hallmark of gun ban proponents. Just look at how wonderful our state is run; run into the ground.

The statists and collectivists that run our state never think twice about trampling our Constitutional rights.

Gio
10-05-2009, 11:41 AM
Save you just committed a felony because of this law.

If I was on the other side of the law I would think about doing that, but the biggest flaw is if your firearm is stolen and used in a crime then the heat is on you. So not going to happen, I guess we will be forced to modify our previously owned firearms? Too many flaws in their scheme of life and gun control.

-Gio

Blackhawk556
10-05-2009, 11:53 AM
cant you run something down the barrel that will change the stamp it leaves on the bullet?

RRangel
10-05-2009, 11:57 AM
cant you run something down the barrel that will change the stamp it leaves on the bullet?

The barrel is not going to be leaving any stamp on the bullets. It's the chamber and firing pin. They both wear and this stupid excuse for technology does not work. Then again what else do you expect from those who know what's best for the peons?

Blackhawk556
10-05-2009, 12:02 PM
wow

"other states are waiting to see how it works here in CA"

yeah, let California spend the money to see if this law even works. If it doesn't work (which it won't) CA will be out of millions of dollars while other states spend nothing at all. I wonder why CA has moeny problems right now???

Lancear15
10-05-2009, 12:22 PM
just think, Canada enacted the whole ballistic database for every handgun sold there and they almost solved a crime with it. Not quite,, but I swear they were close!!!!

(who woulda thunk that a signature based on metal scraping against each other might change after a while!!!)

This is actually true. But no anti will listen to facts, just their misguided emotions.

YubaRiver
10-05-2009, 12:30 PM
How would a pierced primer effect microstamping? I've had a couple that
put burrs on the firing pin.

wash
10-05-2009, 12:34 PM
Oops, I was dry firing with a go-gauge instead of a snap cap...

mtptwo
10-05-2009, 12:47 PM
My XD9 swipes the primer, which is pretty normal for autos. I wonder how stamping is going to work with that?

Lancear15
10-05-2009, 12:53 PM
My XD9 swipes the primer, which is pretty normal for autos. I wonder how stamping is going to work with that?

The technology doesn't work so it is a non- issue.

1859sharps
10-05-2009, 12:55 PM
Save you just committed a felony because of this law.

but when have criminals ever worried about breaking the law. They will figure out the firing pin swoping all on their own if they haven't already.

As for it about to become an active law. yes, on paper it is. However there are clauses in the law that pretty much make it a non issue at this time. If I remember the major issue to it becoming an enforceable law is the technology to microstamp must not be encumbered by patents. which at this time it is.

bwiese
10-05-2009, 12:59 PM
A proper rebuttal has been posted to the site under CGF auspices.

dantodd
10-05-2009, 12:59 PM
Okay so go buy a pre-ban firing pin and voila! You have yourself an almost untraceable firearm. Took all but 1 second for me to think of that in my dainty little brain since I am a gun owner and must be a caveman for having them.

-Gio

Please be sure to treat your guns firing pin carefully. A metal brush, as commonly used to clean gun chambers could easily scrub away the microstamping on the pin and a file would completely destroy the printing in just a few seconds. So, the lesson to be very careful using everyday tools around your firearm or you might damage the ID marks.

bernieb90
10-05-2009, 1:17 PM
Last time I checked both firing pins, and barrels were items on a gun that break or wear, and are replaced. Firing pins on semi-auto pistols can and do break occasionally. Barrels wear out and loose accuracy, or become pitted, and corroded. This is like putting the VIN of a car on the tires, and then telling people they can't change the tires. Are you going to have to pay hundreds of dollars for a replacement firing pin because the manufacturer has to set up again to mark your replacement pin.

bernieb90
10-05-2009, 1:26 PM
If I was on the other side of the law I would think about doing that, but the biggest flaw is if your firearm is stolen and used in a crime then the heat is on you. So not going to happen, I guess we will be forced to modify our previously owned firearms? Too many flaws in their scheme of life and gun control.

-Gio

Why would a criminal change the firing pin on a stolen gun. He steals the gun commits a crime, and the legal owner is hounded into bankruptcy by the DA. Meanwhile Mr. Criminal goes on to toss your gun in the river, steals another gun, and goes about his business as usual. Identifying marks that tie the gun directly to a person other than the criminal are as good as it gets.

If a criminal wants to use the gun more than once then he can certainly aquire unstamped guns on the black market (just like the ones now with removed serial numbers).

Timberline
10-05-2009, 1:33 PM
So is microstamping law going to be enacted in a few months? My understanding was that this law requires more than one company providing the technology (i.e. no monopoly). I didn't hear any other companies to "embrace" this crap so I thought this law is doomed to die. But NPR never mentioned anything like that...
Did I miss something?

It was a KQED production, their show is called "Quest." Not an NPR production.

And no, you didn't miss anything, the report failed to mention the legal and patent problems with the legislation. I listened this morning, waiting for the punchline, but it never came. The reporter, Amy Standen, has an online notebook, with some backstory on the article. You can leave comments, too, though it looks like Bill Wiese has already given the authoratative response on the problems with the law.

http://www.kqed.org/quest/blog/2008/06/20/reporters-notes-how-to-id-a-bullet/

Werewolf1021
10-05-2009, 1:33 PM
Wouldn't there be a problem with the chain of custody for the brass? It seems there is not way to determine if the BG just went to his local range and scooped up a case or two from the guy next to him.

FortCourageArmory
10-05-2009, 2:06 PM
A proper rebuttal has been posted to the site under CGF auspices.
Bill,
You nailed it!!

Aldemar
10-05-2009, 2:56 PM
Revolvers......

Gunm
10-05-2009, 4:06 PM
Wouldn't there be a problem with the chain of custody for the brass? It seems there is not way to determine if the BG just went to his local range and scooped up a case or two from the guy next to him.
I can see it now. "CSI recovered one bullet. Apparently there were 20 shooters in the room, all of whom attended a certain shooting range, who were such poor shots that only the one bullet hit anything, including the windows and walls. Each of the shooters fired dozens of rounds. We have all 20 persons of interest in custody for murder. Obviously only one of them was a good shot." :eek:

bomb_on_bus
10-05-2009, 4:10 PM
cant you run something down the barrel that will change the stamp it leaves on the bullet?


Yup, you could run a metal file to scratch up the grooves in the barrel but then your making the gun even more inaccurate.

Merc1138
10-05-2009, 4:16 PM
Yup, you could run a metal file to scratch up the grooves in the barrel but then your making the gun even more inaccurate.

Yeah, but is the average criminal(and I use that loosely, kind of hard to define "average" when it comes to criminals) probably don't give a crap about being able to shoot less than 1 moa at 100 yards. "Busting a cap in yo azz" doesn't usually involve precision long range shooting. Remember, we're talking about people who use crap .25's and the like already anyway, and even if they were to use something higher power have you ever heard of a driveby happening from any distance greater than maybe the opposite side of the street? And certainly in a robbery every shooting I've ever heard of is within 10 yards or less.

M. Sage
10-05-2009, 4:57 PM
Save you just committed a felony because of this law.

Yeah, because one more felony matters to a felon who is committing one just by being in possession of a firearm.

loather
10-05-2009, 5:57 PM
It doesn't matter, as any evidence collected by means of this is subject to a logical fallacy known as post hoc, ergo propter hoc. Translated from Latin, it loosely means, "this happened, therefore this caused that." Which, as you may know, may not always be true.

e.g. You buy a gun. Someone was shot, and shell casings from that murder scene are stamped with your serial number. Therefore, you shot that person.

They forget to leave out the fact that your gun may have been stolen or otherwise not in your possession at the time.

It's stupid. It's the same thing as AB 962 -- I buy .40 caliber ammo, and a murder is committed with .40 caliber ammo. Therefore, I killed that person.

Nope, not gonna fly in court.

gd-bh
10-05-2009, 6:43 PM
I was excited to be working on this story. After all, it's not that often that a primarily environmental reporter

Stop right there. If being a "reporter" isn't enough to cause one to doubt the persons credibility, adding "environmental" seals the deal. There are no bigger liars and believers of junk science than "environmentalists". Anything spewing from the mouth/pen/brainwaves of an "environmental reporter" should automatically be dismissed as either a lie, a deception, or such a stretching of slim fact that nothing short of a miracle of biblical proportion could ever make true.

In other words, any thinking person would completely ignore the feces spewed by this person. Too bad there are few humans alive in this state who actually use that gray matter between their ears. (present company excluded of course..;) )

Librarian
10-05-2009, 6:47 PM
Save you just committed a felony because of this law.

Nothing in the law restricts owner modifications of their pistols.

Timberline
10-05-2009, 7:33 PM
Stop right there. If being a "reporter" isn't enough to cause one to doubt the persons credibility, adding "environmental" seals the deal. There are no bigger liars and believers of junk science than "environmentalists". Anything spewing from the mouth/pen/brainwaves of an "environmental reporter" should automatically be dismissed as either a lie, a deception, or such a stretching of slim fact that nothing short of a miracle of biblical proportion could ever make true.

In other words, any thinking person would completely ignore the feces spewed by this person. Too bad there are few humans alive in this state who actually use that gray matter between their ears. (present company excluded of course..;) )

Nonsense. Reporters investigate and develop stories, which are then "reported" in the news. Many reporters cover particular issues in depth, and one issue which is particularly important in California is the Environment. You're confusing reportage with biased advocacy, which is something entirely different.

gd-bh
10-06-2009, 12:52 AM
Nonsense. Reporters investigate and develop stories, which are then "reported" in the news. Many reporters cover particular issues in depth, and one issue which is particularly important in California is the Environment. You're confusing reportage with biased advocacy, which is something entirely different.

30 years ago, I'd probably agree with you. But I think it would be hard to honestly find one news outlet that simply "reports" the news, without bias. That is certainly a lofty ideal, but the integrity required of that concept has long been sold out by the "news" organizations.

Sunwolf
10-06-2009, 5:23 AM
What are they proposing about existing guns?From some reports there is a 100 year supply of existing guns.

Sunwolf
10-06-2009, 5:31 AM
Nonsense. Reporters investigate and develop stories, which are then "reported" in the news. Many reporters cover particular issues in depth, and one issue which is particularly important in California is the Environment. You're confusing reportage with biased advocacy, which is something entirely different.

Once upon a time in a land far,far away,there was a beautiful princess.......................................... ..................

leitung
10-06-2009, 5:49 AM
Nothing in the law restricts owner modifications of their pistols.

Thank you, once it's sold as new, the safe list does not apply anymore, you can file and scrape to your hearts content.

As long as the new model of handgun, when added to the list, has those features, and each one of that rostered model is sold NEW with those features, no violation of law is committed. If you buy the gun, file off the microstamper, then PPT it, this is not a violation of the law. Provided your intent when PPTing the gun was not a situation in which to circumvent the microstamping law.

Of course, this law will not apply to handguns already on the roster, revolvers, & handguns added to the list that are done under the exemption for minor cosmetic differences. Also, this technology has to be patented by 2 companies before it can be enforced. As it stands right now, the LCI & Mag disconnect law already does out 99% of new models of handguns anyway.

Also remember, that PPTs and consignment guns will still be able to be freely bought and sold here in California.

The world is not coming to an end, we will still have a very rich selection of handguns come 1/1/10..

Oh did I mention the good folks at CGF are going after the roster right now?

Ike Arumba
10-06-2009, 4:25 PM
Thank you, once it's sold as new, the safe list does not apply anymore, you can file and scrape to your hearts content.
But you still can't remove the serial number, right?

Also remember, that PPTs and consignment guns will still be able to be freely bought and sold here in California.
Really? I thought consignment guns were considered to be sold by the FFL, and therefore subject to the list.

bwiese
10-06-2009, 4:26 PM
Really? I thought consignment guns were considered to be sold by the FFL, and therefore subject to the list.

Nope. Consignment guns are treated as PPTs and are just 'showcased' at the FFL. I - as well as many folks here - have bought many consignment non-Rostered guns from CA FFLs.

tube_ee
10-06-2009, 5:06 PM
30 years ago, I'd probably agree with you. But I think it would be hard to honestly find one news outlet that simply "reports" the news, without bias. That is certainly a lofty ideal, but the integrity required of that concept has long been sold out by the "news" organizations.

The entire idea of "unbaised news" is a peculiarly American one, and even more an American idea from the latter half of the 20th Century.

In the rest of the industrialized world, and for the majority of the history of our Republic, newspapers unabashedly reflect the opinions of their owners. Most places, you can predict the outcomes of elections by comparing the sales figures of newspapers.

Even now, this is largely true... there's a reason you'll never see a story critical of General Electric on NBC.

You might also ponder the effects of the FCC dropping the requirement for broadcasters to air "programming in the public interest" as a condition of their leasing our radio spectrum. They had to do it, and news counted toward the requirement. After that was done away with, the news divisions (which had always lost money) were required to turn a profit... in all three major networks, news operations were transferred to the "entertainment" divisions.

--SHannon

DREADNOUGHT78
10-06-2009, 10:00 PM
A vender here told me in a conversation that the microstamping process was in a hold up because the developer had sold the rights to Toshiba. But in the deal they did not sell all necessary to complete the process but rather retained it in order to possibly collect some sort of royalties.

As far as the marring of the barrels? If you committed a crime with a certain firearm you could run a screwdriver or some other type of metal object down the barrel to change the rifling so that if recovered the Ballistics from the later fired rounds would have different striations then rounds recovered at the crime scene.

wash
10-07-2009, 7:34 AM
Toshiba, that's a good one...

As for making a gun un-traceable, why?

Since there is no micro-stamping, if you reload your ammo or use old ammo and avoid fingerprints, how could it be traced?

A nice torch will make the barrel, extractor and breech face never make the same marks again.

And that's why the law is stupid, any (non-prohibited) criminal with half a brain can buy a gun, use it once and destroy the evidence without much effort.

We can catch stupid criminals without more stupid laws.

7x57
10-07-2009, 7:50 AM
When someone is convicted of murder he should be brought into the next room where they usually have a glass viewing are, sat in the electric chair and ended right then, do not pass go do not waste 1 million dollars on appeals.

Murder would stop very quickly.

Worked in the Soviet Union real well, didn't it? Aside from the fact that "law and order" isn't worth what you describe, it often doesn't produce law and order anyway. Those who give up Liberty for safety usually get neither.

The founders had a lot of experience with the law being used for political purposes, as well as the entire English experience of the necessity of biasing the system in favor of the accused. Please re-read the owner's manual--you are operating heavy machinery in a dangerously out-of-spec manner.

7x57