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NSR500
10-05-2009, 2:06 AM
http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1545

The Cats Out of the Bag!

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In that the "cats out of the bag" over on arfcom (and several other internet forums as well) concerning the IWI Tavor, I thought I should make the members of WEVO aware of what's going on.

KBI is teaming up with IWI, following the successful transition of the Jericho pistol line to KBI from Magnum, to bring the Tavor bullpup carbines and rifles to the US market. They will be built in the US from Israeli and American components. Formal introduction to the industry will occur at the 2010 SHOT Show.




As we did with our entry into the AR-15 market, we are soliciting opinions from the shooting community on certain features/construction to incorporate into the production.

The current topic in the thread on AR-15 com is whether or not to use the original 14.95" barrel (CTAR model) with a pinned flash suppressor vs. going with a 16" barrel with a removable flash suppressor. You can read all, or the portion of the thread that concerns this topic, (on pages 18 through 20), by clicking here.

We would like your opinions also. Please feel free to post here, on arfcom, or on The Charles Daly Forum with any questions or comments you may have.
__________________


Looks like my "Wish List" just got a little bigger!

Richie Caketown
10-05-2009, 2:08 AM
:eek: YES!!!! Im going to start saving up so the moment Radd makes a lock for it i can buy it

NSR500
10-05-2009, 2:14 AM
For those who don't know what a Tavor is:

http://i43.tinypic.com/2rz3tvs.jpg
http://i40.tinypic.com/i6f4i8.jpg
http://i44.tinypic.com/2lbcl7p.jpg

Richie Caketown
10-05-2009, 2:18 AM
i wonder if they will have a Micro Tavor available aswell

JeffM
10-05-2009, 2:43 AM
Everyone should go vote for 16" - it will make it much easier to add a fake can/extention to make the 30" OAL requirement for CA.

JeffM
10-05-2009, 2:56 AM
I dont know about this, considering it is manufactured by a foreign national company, the only reason they would build it in the U.S. because of the myriad restrictions that will be imposed for importation.

But again, IMI is unique as being a nationally held company, So there will be added importation restrictions. In canada the Tavor is a heavily neutered civilian version, very ugly, I hope they can manage to keep the integrity of the unit will making more changes tailored for the american market (Threaded barrel, top rails- etc. )

922r and other import restrictions.

I always preferred a Famas, but I accept the fact that it will never happen, so a Tavor will do,

There are semi-auto FAMAS guns in the US.

I just cant fanthom as to why Pakastani soldiers are being outfitted with Tavors while the civilian market in the U.S. would easily pay triple then what Pakistan would pay- and in much higher volume.

^Capitalism - exactly the reason why they are jumping through the hoops to bring these to the US market.

Hayashi Killian
10-05-2009, 3:20 AM
922r and other import restrictions.
My understanding of the article is that they won't be imported. They'll be built within the US. The only thing that will be imported is some parts.

cbn620
10-05-2009, 3:25 AM
Hmm, I wonder how much this will cost... I'm gonna guess a lot more than an AR.

Q
10-05-2009, 6:18 AM
Everyone should go vote for 16" - it will make it much easier to add a fake can/extention to make the 30" OAL requirement for CA.

+1 It's about time these were available here.

slappomatt
10-05-2009, 6:54 AM
theres a big thread (or two) over at arfcom. people where doing the math and just to get to 26" they need a 16.5" barrel. being as they dont want to have to make special barrels for this they will probably be using 18" barrels.

zcrehan
10-05-2009, 7:41 AM
Lol, even with an 18 inch barrel its shorter than the M4...

Cool rifle.

ChrisO
10-05-2009, 8:30 AM
Man can they switch these puppies over to left handed? I have always liked these rifles.

reidnez
10-05-2009, 8:35 AM
Man can they switch these puppies over to left handed? I have always liked these rifles.

Yes! Controls are ambidextrous and there are ejection ports on both sides of the rifle, so it can be set up to eject from either side. Very smart design. I really don't see the assault rifle advancing much past this concept.

ChrisO
10-05-2009, 8:41 AM
Very good design I really like it and the fact it can be switched over to a left handed configuration makes it that much better.

PatriotnMore
10-05-2009, 8:47 AM
I would definitely buy one of these if the price point is reasonable.

Solidsnake87
10-05-2009, 9:00 AM
There are semi-auto FAMAS guns in the US.

Yes, but they are on the banned list in CA and there are only 88 of them that were ever imported to the US. The ones I have seen go for $12-20K on gunbroker. Bascially, they are unobtanium.

I'd love to have a FA-MAS but a Tavor will do.

B Strong
10-05-2009, 9:01 AM
Man, everytime I look at a nice bullpup rifle I get the same "gotta have it" urge, and then I remember the AUG.

It was a great rifle, 100% reliable, but I could never wrap around the thing to shoot from prone - for me, that alone eliminates it from consideration as a serious fighting tool.

Don't get me wrong, it's very cool, but I'll take a conventional rifle first.

13Delta
10-05-2009, 9:02 AM
if its cheaper than the MSAR, i'll get one

reidnez
10-05-2009, 9:30 AM
Man, everytime I look at a nice bullpup rifle I get the same "gotta have it" urge, and then I remember the AUG.

It was a great rifle, 100% reliable, but I could never wrap around the thing to shoot from prone - for me, that alone eliminates it from consideration as a serious fighting tool.

Don't get me wrong, it's very cool, but I'll take a conventional rifle first.

I kinda feel the same way. Bullpups are very much a compromise and by no means the best solution for every mission. All you ever hear is "rifle velocity from SMG-length," but that doesn't tell the whole story. I still feel that the traditional rifle/carbine layout is much more ergonomic and instinctive to shoot, while the bullpup forces the shooter to adapt to it.

So I may get one for cool factor if, by some miracle, they are priced sub-$2k. But I won't be ditching my carbine just yet.

Greg-Dawg
10-05-2009, 9:33 AM
I'm fine with an AR.

Manic Moran
10-05-2009, 10:03 AM
while the bullpup forces the shooter to adapt to it.

It does.

And if you were brought up in the Irish army and were suddenly given an AR-15 to shoot, it would force you to adapt to the old-fashioned style.

but I could never wrap around the thing to shoot from prone

?

I've never seen nor had a problem shooting AUG from prone. There are at least three different techniques for doing so, depending on your preference.

NTM

Frijolito1988
10-05-2009, 10:09 AM
I'm fine with an AR.

You gotta realize more people here are collectors, and people willing to spend 1.5k + for a rifle are more than likely collectors and dont just need 1 rifle.

I'm exited for this, I need a bulpup in my line up and my options where either the AUG FS2000 and now we have a Tavor , im hoping we can some how get semi auto FAMAS in our future.

Scratch705
10-05-2009, 1:51 PM
if the FAMAS is on the banned list in CA, what makes you guys think they won't add the TAVOR to the list?

ke6guj
10-05-2009, 2:05 PM
if the FAMAS is on the banned list in CA, what makes you guys think they won't add the TAVOR to the list?because they can't just add it to the list. CA DOJ gave up the right to add firearms to the list. It would take new legislation to add anything to the list.

NSR500
10-05-2009, 2:07 PM
if the FAMAS is on the banned list in CA, what makes you guys think they won't add the TAVOR to the list?

Looking at your registration date you were not around for "2 Weeks". :43:

ke6guj
10-05-2009, 2:11 PM
12276.5. (a) The Attorney General shall prepare a description for identification purposes, including a picture or diagram, of each assault weapon listed in Section 12276, and any firearm declared to be an assault weapon pursuant to this section, and shall distribute the description to all law enforcement agencies responsible for enforcement of this chapter. Those law enforcement agencies shall make the description available to all agency personnel.
(b) (1) Until January 1, 2007, the Attorney General shall promulgate a list that specifies all firearms designated as assault weapons in Section 12276 or declared to be assault weapons pursuant to this section. The Attorney General shall file that list with the Secretary of State for publication in the California Code of Regulations. Any declaration that a specified firearm is an assault weapon shall be implemented by the Attorney General who, within 90 days, shall promulgate an amended list which shall include the specified firearm declared to be an assault weapon. The Attorney General shall file the amended list with the Secretary of State for publication in the California Code of Regulations. Any firearm declared to be an assault weapon prior to January 1, 2007, shall remain on the list filed with the Secretary fo State.The "list" was frozen on Jan 1, 2007.

Scratch705
10-05-2009, 2:18 PM
ahhh... didn't know that...

time for me to start saving then... haha

jdberger
10-05-2009, 2:27 PM
ahhh... didn't know that...

time for me to start saving then... haha

Just another small thing that CGN and the NRA did for you (for us)!

:)

tomd1584
10-05-2009, 2:30 PM
I'm all about us getting more guns in CA, but man that thing (in my eyes) is hideous.

Josh3239
10-05-2009, 4:02 PM
Yep, bunch of threads about it on ARF. Charley Daly is over on ARF asking people what length barrel they want and whether they want it with a flat top or Israeli optics like the MARS.

NSR500
10-05-2009, 4:14 PM
All I really care about is that it gets here. The more variety in firearms the better.
The fact these things are compatible with AR mags is awesome! No need for me to start buying another type of magazine.

djleisure
10-05-2009, 4:16 PM
The fact these things are compatible with AR mags is awesome! No need for me to start buying another type of magazine.

I think these actually take STANAG mags, which are slightly different, but still cool!

Bug Splat
10-05-2009, 5:20 PM
Meh, I'm not jumping for joy over it. Looks ok but all I see is a WAY over priced rifle that if we Cali guys get will need to be neutered.

Is that thing made out of plastic too? Where are all you SU-16 haters now? ;)

Peter W Bush
10-05-2009, 5:28 PM
How do these compare to the FS2000?

J_Rock
10-05-2009, 5:30 PM
Not going to work, even with a 18" barrel its still under the 30" CA limit.

You would need a 20"+ barrel or a one hell of a thick buttpad to bring it up to 30".

bomb_on_bus
10-05-2009, 5:34 PM
me wants!

:D

sevensix2x51
10-05-2009, 5:37 PM
looks like a fun toy. at least if it were out of state.. i still cant trust my ar's, with the california "we know better than you, and youre gonna hurt people with your scary weapon" legislation. and seeing as how this weapon wont have 1/1000th the aftermarket parts market, i cant see myself owning one. but it looks cool, nonetheless. maybe if i ever finally move to texas...

Charles Daly
10-22-2009, 12:54 PM
Not going to work, even with a 18" barrel its still under the 30" CA limit.

You would need a 20"+ barrel or a one hell of a thick buttpad to bring it up to 30".

You can forget the Tavor in CA. Even with the 18" barrel the OAL is 28.5". It will be available in 2010 throughout the US, just not CA!

eighteenninetytwo
10-22-2009, 12:57 PM
Lets not forget that it's hideously ugly also.

ke6guj
10-22-2009, 12:57 PM
You can forget the Tavor in CA. Even with the 18" barrel the OAL is 28.5". It will be available in 2010 throughout the US, just not CA!

If its only 1.5" short, a longer flash hider or thicker buttpad could be used to make it CA-legal.

Joe788
10-22-2009, 1:50 PM
What length is the barrel in this picture?

http://i43.tinypic.com/2rz3tvs.jpg

RAMCHARGER
10-22-2009, 5:04 PM
FUGLY IS TOO NICE A WORD FOR IT... And my standards are pretty, pretty low....

If it was a woman... Guys would walk behind her making Wookie sounds! :O)

tomd1584
10-22-2009, 5:30 PM
FUGLY IS TOO NICE A WORD FOR IT... And my standards are pretty, pretty low....

If it was a woman... Guys would walk behind her making Wookie sounds! :O)

+1,000

zeus45c
10-22-2009, 6:58 PM
My biggest problem with the Tavor is that you still can't change from left/right handed shooting on the fly based on obstacles you encounter.

Yes! Controls are ambidextrous and there are ejection ports on both sides of the rifle, so it can be set up to eject from either side. Very smart design. I really don't see the assault rifle advancing much past this concept.

xm177
10-22-2009, 7:18 PM
Honesty, I'm not feeling the loss of that plastic Halo space gun. Set phasers to stun. :biggrinjester:

Q
10-22-2009, 7:40 PM
If its only 1.5" short, a longer flash hider or thicker buttpad could be used to make it CA-legal.

+1 it's been done for stg556, ps90, and fs2000.

Flying Bones
10-22-2009, 8:47 PM
FUGLY IS TOO NICE A WORD FOR IT... And my standards are pretty, pretty low....

If it was a woman... Guys would walk behind her making Wookie sounds! :O)

Yup.

I guess the G22 ruined it for me.

Timberland
10-27-2009, 7:43 AM
I want one. It looks like an ar mag, but no ar release, what gives?

paratroop
10-27-2009, 8:32 AM
I think these actually take STANAG mags, which are slightly different, but still cool!

STANAG(standardization agreement) is what ar's and m-4s and m-16s use. it was a way to start standardizing our equipment with our allies. like we use the same rounds, i.e.7.62NATO.

bombadillo
10-27-2009, 8:50 AM
I just can't get into bullpups. I don't know what it is about them but they are all just hideous to me. REALLY short sight radius, ergos are just weird. Maybe if our forces were equipped with them and everybody started buying bullpups I could try them out some more, but they are very foreign looking and feeling to me.

mossy
10-27-2009, 8:51 AM
thats cool, but you will have to move outta CA to get it

Gio
10-27-2009, 10:57 AM
I like it, I would get one with the shorter barrel if I was not in CA :D

-Gio

WeekendWarrior
10-27-2009, 12:41 PM
WWRTW

Rem1492
10-27-2009, 12:49 PM
I like it, always have. And a FAMAS too. I guess it all depends on price because even 5.56 ammo is still hard to come by.

And the market of would be buyers is already flooded after the election.

$700-800 I'd bite, over that and I am not sure I'd get my money's worth.

I have a feeling they are looking at $1500+ to recoup investment.
-----------
Are these things chrome lined?

TangoCharlie
10-27-2009, 1:14 PM
You can forget the Tavor in CA. Even with the 18" barrel the OAL is 28.5". It will be available in 2010 throughout the US, just not CA!

You'd be wise -and it would also help Californians- to design a CA-compliant version of the Tavor. It is very easy and inexpensive to design a compliant version and doing so would enable you to sell a ton of these here. If you don't someone else inevitably will. The California market is HUGE.

RECCE556
10-27-2009, 1:32 PM
My biggest problem with the Tavor is that you still can't change from left/right handed shooting on the fly based on obstacles you encounter.
+1 but you have remember, a LOT of buyers don't plan on actually using these for other than "show and tell" or "square range" shooting.

I'm curious to know how the troops that are issues these use them in house clearing situations. So they just expose more of their bodies when they need to clear support side corners or do they some other technique...maybe shooting "gangster" style with the ejection port angled down? That would seem like the best method but it would expose your support arm a lot more and you would have to use "reference" sighting since your optics would be off your LoS.

someR1
10-27-2009, 1:42 PM
I could see this thing costing at least $1200. IMO, you are better off building a bad *** AR15's ... or maybe a .50BMG!

luckystrike
10-27-2009, 1:47 PM
What length is the barrel in this picture?

http://i43.tinypic.com/2rz3tvs.jpg

being a bullpup atleast 18' or 20'

RECCE556
10-28-2009, 10:33 PM
Also folks, if you do plan on getting some sort of Bullpup, be smart and don't extend the stock (unless you're a really big person). I see a lot of PS90's with that mod and it completely messes up the ergonomics of the gun. Extend the barrel...that's the right way to do it....long flash suppressor or even a fake sound suppressor will allow you to shoot the gun correctly. Remember, it doesn't have to be permanent...there is no "permanency" clause in the OAL requirement.

jumbopanda
10-28-2009, 10:36 PM
Also folks, if you do plan on getting some sort of Bullpup, be smart and don't extend the stock (unless you're a really big person). I see a lot of PS90's with that mod and it completely messes up the ergonomics of the gun. Extend the barrel...that's the right way to do it....long flash suppressor or even a fake sound suppressor will allow you to shoot the gun correctly. Remember, it doesn't have to be permanent...there is no "permanency" clause in the OAL requirement.

+1

:thumbsup:

Carlos Primero
10-29-2009, 5:13 PM
With an 18" barrel, extra-long flash suppressor, and bullet button, this should be a possibility in CA. I may not need one, but I would definitely buy one as soon as it became available. It looks like a kick-*** bullpup!

doctor_vals
11-03-2009, 7:39 PM
For California - we able to have only Japan version of Tavor. (http://www.tokyoarms.com/specials.php) :(

MikeR
11-03-2009, 8:54 PM
Ive had an itch for a bullpup for a long time. Im left eye dominate and it takes AR type mags, maybe emags.

At least this is one more option and hell yea its ugly (less so than a F2000), i want one!

This is freaking America we can make anything work if we want it bad enough! Damn hippies.

Stamatos
11-06-2009, 12:53 AM
This news warms my Hebrew blood :D Even if it isn't built up for CA, it is only a matter of time before some savvy gun folks make it work for us and I shall be the 5th in line for mine!

NSR500
11-06-2009, 1:44 AM
Ugly guns need Love too. ;)

Bug Splat
11-06-2009, 8:56 AM
I think I'd still rather have a KT-RFB. Same basic design but in the harder hitting 308, lower cost and made right here in the USA. KT is said to be working on their own CA version too with a bullet button like device.

doctor_vals
11-09-2009, 11:24 AM
I think I'd still rather have a KT-RFB. Same basic design but in the harder hitting 308, lower cost and made right here in the USA. KT is said to be working on their own CA version too with a bullet button like device.

Yeap, cheap... only $1300 compare to $3000
But long barrel.... :rolleyes: - http://www.rrarms.com/catalog.php?prod=GRFB18

Bug Splat
11-09-2009, 4:28 PM
Yeap, cheap... only $1300 compare to $3000
But long barrel.... :rolleyes: - http://www.rrarms.com/catalog.php?prod=GRFB18

Yeah its sad when $1300 is "cheaper". KT also makes shorter versions too.

http://www.gunblast.com/images/SHOT2007/Day1/100_0273.jpg

WeekendWarrior
12-14-2009, 1:54 PM
WWRTW

holasrmateo
12-14-2009, 6:01 PM
:rofl: I was just looking at this today. I think the biggest thing I dislike about bullpups is the hype around the AUG. Other than that, there are a few uggos but that try for conventional rifles too.

I didn't like the looks of the Tavor entirely at first but everything looks like its where it needs to be. Form and function at it's best. The OAL req is a killer since it detracts from the advantage of such a weapon.

On the flip side, if there was a civilian L85A2 (SA80), it would be California legal - minus the bullet button equivalent. I'd totally buy a decent bullpup - so long as it wasn't an AUG or FN2000 which really eliminates perhaps two of the most prolific. Also the PS90 in my opinion is a crime against nature and I will not buy it.

Noobert
12-14-2009, 6:08 PM
Did COD MW2 spark an interest in these things?

run8
12-14-2009, 7:35 PM
oh be still my heart, i like this odd looking duck for some reason.

Josh3239
12-14-2009, 7:55 PM
I think the biggest thing I dislike about bullpups is the hype around the AUG.

What hype? :confused:

Did COD MW2 spark an interest in these things?

They've been around for a lot longer than COD.

holasrmateo
12-14-2009, 9:38 PM
What hype? :confused:

The kind that you find around stuff like macs. People who live and die by them and visa versa. I'm not sure how to explain it. I'll admit it isn't completely rational. I just feel this need to not clamor for one because there are people that already do that.

Noobert
12-14-2009, 9:39 PM
What hype? :confused:



They've been around for a lot longer than COD.

They've been around long, definately, but no one seemed to be much interested

bondmid003
12-14-2009, 10:21 PM
Wow despite the Obamanation we've seen alot of companies either introduce or plan to introduce EBRs lately

hamster
12-14-2009, 11:03 PM
I want!

killshot44
12-14-2009, 11:36 PM
I still like my guns to look like guns. And you tell me which one is Ugly#1 and Ugly#2 in this picture.....
http://www.gunblast.com/images/SHOT2007/Day1/100_0273.jpg

joash
04-04-2012, 10:40 PM
Looks like it really is coming to the U.S. Market:

http://youtu.be/fS3vHnEQXBg

Capybara
04-04-2012, 11:55 PM
I don't know, on one hand, I repulsed by it's overall cheesy plasticity and what the cost will be. On the other hand, it is interesting. Bull pups are pretty rare really, I have hardly ever seen anyone shoot one in person.

Adding a lot of length to it to to make it Cali compliant probably makes it a no go and then I am sure that if it ends up being much over $1,200.00, I wouldn't be as interested. Glad it is coming to the U.S. though, that is a good thing and I hope that they sell of lot of 'em.

223556
04-05-2012, 12:22 AM
Battle comp 1.5 should make it oal 30" :)

joash
04-05-2012, 2:03 PM
I'm just wondering what kind of lame mag lock they'll use.

hammerhead_77
04-05-2012, 3:31 PM
It is cool...of course you could build a completely cali legal, non-AW, 7.62x39mm
bullpup for around $600 like I did. ( yeah, I just finished it and I'm bragging all over the place. Sorry :TFH:)

http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj587/hammerhead_77/P10209481.jpg

Either way, bullpups are freaking cool! Kinda like the real thing - so ugly you gotta love 'em!

glock7
04-05-2012, 3:45 PM
Cheesy plasticity? Lol a lot of weapons have plastic oops I mean polymer. It's cheaper.

BamBam-31
04-05-2012, 3:53 PM
I still like my guns to look like guns. And you tell me which one is Ugly#1 and Ugly#2 in this picture.....
http://www.gunblast.com/images/SHOT2007/Day1/100_0273.jpg

Okay, I laughed. :p

So wrong....

glock7
04-05-2012, 3:56 PM
Bullpups are great for CQB. I'd get one to put in the collection.

Capybara
04-05-2012, 6:37 PM
Cheesy plasticity? Lol a lot of weapons have plastic oops I mean polymer. It's cheaper.

Yeah, I know my AR isn't exactly polymer free either but for some reason, a polymer buttstock or foregrip on a metal rifle doesn't offend me as much as a plastic turtle shell like most of the Bullpups utilize. It also has to do with the color and texture. Like that 7.62 Bullpup a few posts up, that looks great to me, but the bare stock panels on the Tavor and FS2000 just remind me of my Sears canister vacuum, very similar construction.

fighterpilot562
04-05-2012, 6:45 PM
nice rifle