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MrClamperSir
10-04-2009, 5:38 PM
I was reading on another forum about CCW and how, in general, "we" need more training. While I happen to believe one can never be prepared enough, the intent was to put you through different scenarios. One of the scenarios was about being armed in public when you stumble into a situation in which another person has a gun drawn. They went on to say that the normal, or natural reaction, was to draw your own weapon, which they obviously discouraged.

While reading the scenario and trying to "put myself at the scene", my first reaction was to find cover and make sure myself, and who ever else was with me, was out of danger.

The point is, you never know who the guy with the gun is, and until you do, stay the hell out of it. I agree and feel that is universally understood.

I find it hard to believe that the "natural" reaction is to draw your own weapon.

Turo
10-04-2009, 6:01 PM
If you were to observe the entire incident, starting with whatever started it and it escalated to a person drawing a gun and you also saw that the person with a gun was the perpetrator, then yes drawing your weapon in defense of others would be a correct choice. If you just walked into a situation where someone had a gun drawn on another, and you don't know who was in the right/wrong then no, it shouldn't be a natural reaction.

freakshow10mm
10-04-2009, 6:20 PM
Natural reaction is to draw your weapon. There is a weapon present, that isn't yours and is being presented in a threatening way to someone else. You have a split second to decide if you should immediately intervene and sort things out or take cover, observe, and see who the good guy is, be a good witness.

Without specifics, I'd draw so it's ready if I need it and take cover.

It could be the actual victim in this case has drawn their weapon in lawful self defense and the guy who's looking down the barrel just pulled a knife on the guy.

Sometimes it's best to observe when you're a third party but for some, the urge to help and take control is too much.

It's a tough call either way.

k1dude
10-04-2009, 6:59 PM
My reaction would be to run unobserved the opposite way while calling 911. Once far enough away I would take cover and put my hand on my gun without brandishing it until I knew what the h**l was going on.

Desert_Rat
10-04-2009, 9:35 PM
+1 on figuring out who is who.
Could most definantly be a good guy with the gun drawn,

MP301
10-04-2009, 10:36 PM
Lot of factors to consider here....no easy right and wrong answer. If you draw your gun and your wroing, could be bad....if you hesitate and your wrong, it could be bad.

The good thing is, that with a discussion like this, is to make people think about it beforehand...learn what your personal limitations, feelings, ability, etc., are, so that if you ever end up in this situation you have something....anything, to go on.

In my advanced tactical training, live shoot houses were usede with scenarios/ situations that didnt necessarily have a right or a wrong to them. They were designed to make you think. Why would you/did you react like that? What was your thinking.

Why did I shoot the guy at the end of the dark hallway who did not have a gun? Well, he was holding his 80's brick phone with a long antenna in his hand like it was a pistol....He should have had a newer phone (just kidding)....it looked like a gun and I had only a second to react to the threat.

One important point in explaining situations like this is CYA. (This does not mean Cover Your A** either). It means...."Can You Articulate" Why did you do or not do something? Do you have a reason? What were you thinking? What was happening? What information did you have and how did you interpret it?

Right and wrong can be a real grey area when you dont know all the facts. But you have to live with what you did or didnt do after the fact...(unless of course you action or inaction got you dead).

A lot of responsibility comes with carrying a gun along with a lot of safety. Personally, I feel middle of the road. I dont over react, but I dont wet down my leg and hide under a rock either. I do what I feel is right and accept what happens afterward.

A little side note. My CCW instructor had this scenario. Lets say you were in a stop and rob getting a dsoda and when you came back up to the counter, this dirtbag was getting ready to shoot the little girl behind the counter. What should you do?

Then he made it perfectly clear that if it wasnt you or your family in danger, you should not get involved because you might get sued. Let her die, observe and be a good witness.

So I asked him how he would view this same situation if i were in this store and it was his daughter behind the counter working her way thru college. I mean, shes somebodies daughter, right? Would you thank me and shake my hand because I was such a good witness as to how your daughter's life was cut short when I could have stopped it? Or would you rather be shaking my hand saying thank you for saving her life?

Well, that made me real unpopular with him and he changed the subject. But you get the point. Its really easy for some politicion or LEO or whomever to tell you not to get involved, but they sure feel different if it affects them.

If you can live with yourself by letting someone die when you could have intervened, then that is your right. It doesnt make you wrong. But the way many of us view ourselves, life in general, etc., that would not work for us. Sue me....good luck with that.Take it all. But you cant take my honor, dignity and sense of right and wrong......

Sheep Dog all the way. Which one are you?
http://www.upitall.com/Private/u/131/188/4151

jello2594
10-05-2009, 12:09 AM
It's like the old adage. Every bullet you fire is one million dollars. Figuring legal costs, court costs, lawsuits, etc.. Keeping that figure in mind, you only use your firearm to protect yourself or immediate family. Would you pay $1M to save your own life or your kids? Of course. Would you spend it to protect a shopkeeper getting robbed by a crackhead? Probably not...

MP301
10-05-2009, 2:08 AM
It's like the old adage. Every bullet you fire is one million dollars. Figuring legal costs, court costs, lawsuits, etc.. Keeping that figure in mind, you only use your firearm to protect yourself or immediate family. Would you pay $1M to save your own life or your kids? Of course. Would you spend it to protect a shopkeeper getting robbed by a crackhead? Probably not...

See my previous post. Would you feel the same if someone could have saved you or your families life instead of just worrying about themselves? Probably not....

My money is worth someone else's life, sure...how about that? Besides, that is what insurance and bankruptsy law is for. Sue me for doing the right thing...the price i pay for living in Ca I guess.

My only concern is staying out of jail, so Im not inclined to do something to intentionally cause that. However, in order to do the right thing, I would risk it ...intelligently of course. I would do it for my family and myself obviously...but I would also do it for someone I dont even know who is doing nothing wrong....

Why is thier life worth less then mine or my families life? Because I dont know them? Because I dont know thier family that depends on them...that love them.....please.

If more people would stop being so selfish, things wouldnt be so messed up in this world in the first place. Grow a pair folks...geeeze.

freakshow10mm
10-05-2009, 4:10 AM
A little side note. My CCW instructor had this scenario. Lets say you were in a stop and rob getting a dsoda and when you came back up to the counter, this dirtbag was getting ready to shoot the little girl behind the counter. What should you do?
Smoke him.

Then he made it perfectly clear that if it wasnt you or your family in danger, you should not get involved because you might get sued. Let her die, observe and be a good witness.

I could never live with myself knowing I could have saved a life but never tried.

audiophil2
10-06-2009, 6:36 PM
Think of your situations this way. What would you do if you did not have a gun with you?
In any case involving a stranger you most likely would run away. If it was a friend you would feel baaad while running away. If it was a spouse/child you would fight without a gun and hopefully not die.
Always remember the +1 factor.

Jak1
10-06-2009, 7:55 PM
Obviously, protecting your family is #1. I couldn't stand by and watch someone else get hurt or killed if I knew exactly what was going on. If I do my best and end up getting sued or incarcerated, so be it. It would suck for me and my family, but for me, it would still be the right thing to do.

flyer898
10-06-2009, 8:37 PM
The restaurant robberies in the bay area a while ago made me think about this. My goal would be to survive along with those under my care and at the same time not increase the danger to the others (victims) involved. I don't want to start a gunfight if no one's life is in real danger as opposed to potential danger. I know where my bullets are going, but I don't know where the return fire is going. If I have to reveal myself and shoot I want those with me under cover and I want to have identified and prioritized all of the targets. My most common carry gun holds five rounds. The number of adversaries must be considered when starting this gunfight. If the robbers shoot someone, that changes the equation; potential threat has become actual threat. My thought then is headshots and one per customer; those with shotguns getting priority. This is why I train with the ammunition I carry and my hand hurts as a consequence.

Jason762
10-06-2009, 8:53 PM
If it doesn't directly affect me or my friends/family, I'm staying the hell away from it. Like the police, there is no legal obligation for me to protect the lives of others.

*snip*

Why is thier life worth less then mine or my families life? Because I dont know them? Because I dont know thier family that depends on them...that love them.....please.

If more people would stop being so selfish, things wouldnt be so messed up in this world in the first place. Grow a pair folks...geeeze.

Their life is not worthless to me, but it must've been to them because they didn't take the steps to protect themselves. IMO if you value your life, there's no reason not to have something and training to fight back with.

As for the selfishness bit, why should the "victim" (who's really the victim here?) expect you to put your life/reputation/money on the line for getting him/herself in that situation?

Let's say you turn a corner and you see me (a legal, CCW permit carrying, upstanding citizen) holding a firearm on a person. This person has their hands up, looks scared poopless, and is pleading me not to shoot him. You instantly think I'm the "bad guy" here, you see someone whose life is in "danger" and you draw and shoot me, saving the "good guy".

Well, you've just f'ed me royally, haven't you?