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bboyin4food
10-03-2009, 11:53 AM
Ill try to keep the story short, but here it goes:

my grandfather (who lived in Idaho) passed away 2 weeks ago. he had quite a collection of old hunting rifles, shotguns and revolvers, all which were promised to his grandkids (me, my cousins). in his last few years he had become a little loopy and transfered his guns to his oldest daughter that also lived in idaho, because he was afraid the Gov. was gonna take them :TFH:.

a few months ago on our last visit to see him, we tried to convince my aunt to transfer them back into his name to safeguard our heritage and be able to pass the guns down from him to us when he passed. she didnt want to talk about it (refused to do it). we knew his health was failing, but it was a hard issue to talk about. we certainly didn't expect him to pass so soon

so, i get the call that he passed away. before i get the chance to get home from work, i learn that my aunt had given his whole collection to her son-in-law for a ridiculously low sum of money. supposedly to 'help with the funeral costs' - which we found out later that since he was a veteran, was not as much as they thought. i guess my cousin and him had just arrived for a visit when he passed. this whole transaction took place before the coroner even took his body away, so i hear. anyway, it was all done before anyone could say "wtf."

the guns are no longer in my family and you can imagine how my family feels since we all grew up shooting and hunting with my grandpa since we were young. we decided we needed to put it past us for now and deal with my grandfathers funeral first, which i might add that my cousin and her husband did NOT stay for. in fact they left soon after and before most of my family showed up to confront him.

sorry just had to get that out... :mad:
my question is about being able to get our family heritage back. if i can convince this guy (whom ive never really met) to sell them back to me, assuming he hasn't sold them for a profit yet, how would multiple guns work?

1) im assuming since it was a mother - son in law transaction. no DROS was needed? (he is a resident of california, she is a resident of idaho)

2)it is also possible that they still might be in my Aunts name. if thats the case is there a provision for aunt to nephew? i dont see anything on the attorney general site...

3) if they are in his name now, i would need to transfer about 10+ guns. each handgun needs to be DROS'd and long guns can be all on one DROS with a handgun correct?

4) im assuming the same goes for PPT fees? 1 handgun/ x long guns?

CSACANNONEER
10-03-2009, 12:09 PM
I'm sorry for your loss. I bet you are SOL as far as the guns are concerned. My family had a similar situation happen were my grandmother was wrangled into writing a new will a week before she died which excluded every one of my grandfather's family (by name) from getting anything. This was the exact opposite of my grandfather's will which stated that she got everything until she died and then we all got part of what was left. Her family was nice enough not to let us know about her passing until the entire estate was gone!

If I were you, I'd contact the son-in-law and offer to buy whatever you want at full market value. The monitary loss is nothing compared to the family heritage contained in some of those pieces. Life isn't fair but, at least, you still know where the guns are and might be able to buy them. My grandfather's stuff just evaporated into thin air!

bboyin4food
10-03-2009, 12:22 PM
you are right. im hoping something will work out, and im hoping this guys is a lot more reasonable and understanding than he has portrayed himself so far.

of course, my grandfather did not even have a will. he was a pretty stubborn man. i saw something like this happening given all the factors of the situation. just sucks when it actually happens.

bsim
10-03-2009, 12:26 PM
...1) im assuming since it was a mother - son in law transaction. no DROS was needed? (he is a resident of california, she is a resident of idaho)...I don't believe HE (the son-in-law) can take possession of anything that's not a C&R without an FFL involved. This *may* be outside the lines of Intrafamilial transfers which are direct family only (I don't see anything about spouses).

But I will stand corrected if I'm wrong on this...

dustoff31
10-03-2009, 12:38 PM
I don't believe HE (the son-in-law) can take possession of anything that's not a C&R without an FFL involved. This *may* be outside the lines of Intrafamilial transfers which are direct family only (I don't see anything about spouses).

But I will stand corrected if I'm wrong on this...


I was thinking that too, but wasn't sure so I didn't post. I don't think in laws are covered.

bboyin4food
10-03-2009, 12:41 PM
I don't believe HE (the son-in-law) can take possession of anything that's not a C&R without an FFL involved. This *may* be outside the lines of Intrafamilial transfers which are direct family only (I don't see anything about spouses).

But I will stand corrected if I'm wrong on this...

just what i was thinking also. Aunt => her daughter => husband would be the proper route. however i dont think her daughter meets requirements for firearm ownership for medical/mental reasons. so that would make this an illegal transfer if what you say is correct.

CSACANNONEER
10-03-2009, 12:54 PM
So, either try to buy the guns and get them in your possession or, get DOJ and ATF involved because they were illegally transfered across state lines. Unfortunately, if you call in the thugs, you will NEVER see the guns again. You have no legal rights to them and it would take a lot of cash and a good attorney to make the AFT and DOJ let you look at them again, let alone keep them. You're screwed, just get what you can as fast as you can and kiss the rest good bye.

bboyin4food
10-03-2009, 1:05 PM
So, either try to buy the guns and get them in your possession or, get DOJ and ATF involved because they were illegally transfered across state lines. Unfortunately, if you call in the thugs, you will NEVER see the guns again. You have no legal rights to them and it would take a lot of cash and a good attorney to make the AFT and DOJ let you look at them again, let alone keep them. You're screwed, just get what you can as fast as you can and kiss the rest good bye.

good call. looks like i got some work to do. thanks

CHS
10-03-2009, 1:27 PM
So, either try to buy the guns and get them in your possession or, get DOJ and ATF involved because they were illegally transfered across state lines. Unfortunately, if you call in the thugs, you will NEVER see the guns again. You have no legal rights to them and it would take a lot of cash and a good attorney to make the AFT and DOJ let you look at them again, let alone keep them. You're screwed, just get what you can as fast as you can and kiss the rest good bye.

+1 What he said.

Try diplomacy first though.

BigDogatPlay
10-03-2009, 1:58 PM
Diplomacy, yes.... even though it rarely works in these sorts of situations.

Unless there is something I am not aware of, if the son in law in a California resident he may have some "issues" bringing even a small collection into the state like that..... should anyone in authority find out about it.

CSACANNONEER
10-03-2009, 2:00 PM
Diplomacy, yes.... even though it rarely works in these sorts of situations.

Unless there is something I am not aware of, if the son in law in a California resident he may have some "issues" bringing even a small collection into the state like that..... should anyone in authority find out about it.

So, the OP should report him? I don't think so, reread my post. If the OP reports the SIL, the guns will most likely disapear.

johnthomas
10-03-2009, 2:46 PM
So, the OP should report him? I don't think so, reread my post. If the OP reports the SIL, the guns will most likely disapear.

Find out what the transfer law in that state is. If you offer to buy the gun's from someone that doesn't leally own them, then what? If it turn's out that he is legal, make an offer. If he isn't, then inform him the buy he made was not legal. He'll say something like, "You gonna turn me in"? And you say, I just want to buy the gun's from my Aunt at a fair price. If he ask's again if your going to turn him in, just say yes. Remember this, you will probably never see these gun's again, so you can drop it or get some satisfaction.

dantodd
10-03-2009, 3:01 PM
I'm sory for your loss. Families can be very difficult in stressful times. The whole inter-familial thing is a California artifice. I do not know the laws in Idaho but it is quite possible that nothing illegal was done in the transfers. If you can find the person who bought the guns you might be able to buy back one or two to fulfill your need for a remembrance of your grandfather. Unfortunately you'll have to have them shipped to a California FFL and the roster will apply.

Good luck.

Meplat
10-03-2009, 3:26 PM
This is why you give all your guns to whoever you want to have them before you die, and after you decide you only need the basics for possible social work. What the heck, if you want to go hunting or shooting sometime later and you can't borrow one or two back, you gave them to the wrong people in the first place.

you are right. im hoping something will work out, and im hoping this guys is a lot more reasonable and understanding than he has portrayed himself so far.

of course, my grandfather did not even have a will. he was a pretty stubborn man. i saw something like this happening given all the factors of the situation. just sucks when it actually happens.

Meplat
10-03-2009, 3:44 PM
How big a stink do you want to make?:43: I have been screwed in several inheritance situations but have always taken the high ground. In this case? I'm not sure turning the other cheek would be the right thing. I have only been screwed out of cash and real estate. If someone gets between me and my grandfathers guns? He'd better be a blood relative or the gloves come off.:eek:

just what i was thinking also. Aunt => her daughter => husband would be the proper route. however i dont think her daughter meets requirements for firearm ownership for medical/mental reasons. so that would make this an illegal transfer if what you say is correct.

Meplat
10-03-2009, 3:53 PM
So, how about a sell them to me/us or tell it to the DOJ/judge strategy?:43:

Give him fair market value if you possibly can. It's not about the money. Sure, it will leave a bad taste in your mouth but it beats the alternative.

Diplomacy, yes.... even though it rarely works in these sorts of situations.

Unless there is something I am not aware of, if the son in law in a California resident he may have some "issues" bringing even a small collection into the state like that..... should anyone in authority find out about it.

pullnshoot25
10-03-2009, 4:03 PM
That blows. I hope you can get some, if not all, of them back.

KylaGWolf
10-03-2009, 5:18 PM
I am sorry for your loss. You brought up an interesting point. I am going to have to do a bit of digging with my dad when I go Monday to see him. (he has health issues and this may be the last time I see him before he becomes real bad) I know there are two guns there at the house. A revolver and step-mom had a derringer. When she passed it became his. My brothers do not have any guns. I wonder if he would make sure those go to me when he is gone. Doubtful but I would really hate to see those guns sold to become part of the estate. My oldest brother will turn everything in to cash given the chance and there are somethings that just should be such. Sometimes I really hate having to deal with my brother...but in this case I might just get stubborn and say fine I will take the guns you can deduct it from my share. Doubt he will do it though.

dantodd
10-03-2009, 5:41 PM
I am sorry for your loss. You brought up an interesting point. I am going to have to do a bit of digging with my dad when I go Monday to see him. (he has health issues and this may be the last time I see him before he becomes real bad) I know there are two guns there at the house. A revolver and step-mom had a derringer. When she passed it became his. My brothers do not have any guns. I wonder if he would make sure those go to me when he is gone. Doubtful but I would really hate to see those guns sold to become part of the estate. My oldest brother will turn everything in to cash given the chance and there are somethings that just should be such. Sometimes I really hate having to deal with my brother...but in this case I might just get stubborn and say fine I will take the guns you can deduct it from my share. Doubt he will do it though.

If your dad is in CA just ask him for them now and don't ever let them become part of the estate. Offer to buy them if he wants the money.

bboyin4food
10-04-2009, 3:33 AM
thanks for all the thoughts guys. as of right now, it looks like things might work out. but im not about to relax yet. Meplat said it right when he said if anyone comes between me and my grandfathers guns, the gloves are coming off.

i would be completely satisfied with not getting any of them if they were still within my family, but they are not. only time and patience can tell for now.

if anything, let this be a reminder to HYST before things happen to you or any family member.

Kharn
10-04-2009, 8:29 AM
My instructions to my family after my passing include where to find my bound book (easy way to track my own collection even though its not required), in which I noted how much I paid for each, and who receives each of the really valuable ones (the remainder go draft-style to a preset list of persons). The NFA ones even have pre-filled/unsigned Form 5s to make it even easier.

Inheritances are messy, more than one shooter's estate has been cleaned out by a family member while everyone else was at the wake, funeral or burial.

bwiese
10-04-2009, 3:02 PM
I am even unclear from the story if the guns were even illegally transferred to the son-in-law..... if the son-in-law and daughter were indeed both Idaho residents, no Fed paperwork is needed and the transfers of those guns to him was kosher legally.

Even if the son in law were from out of state, there is handwaving as to whether he really got them from Gramps. Might be difficult to prosecute unless everyone talked - after all, there are some provisions allowing firearms to be transferred from estates to inheritors without going thru FFL. I suspect the family member handling estate matters wouldn't help out. I also suspect this is way way way low on the Feds radar even if you called given the proximity to estate matters.

Aside from that, there really is no way to "wind back the clock" to render these guns inheritable to you (the orig poster).

They are in possession of son-in-law. If he wants to sell/transfer them to you, that process will be just like acquiring them from a GunBroker auction:
- they've gotta go thru CA FFL;
- gun(s) have to be CA legal;
- handguns have to be either Rostered [or exempt single actions etc];
- not a PPT, so CA FFL can charge whatever he wants;
- one-non-PPT-handgun-a-month law is applicable.

Dr Rockso
10-04-2009, 3:37 PM
I am even unclear from the story if the guns were even illegally transferred to the son-in-law..... if the son-in-law and daughter were indeed both Idaho residents, no Fed paperwork is needed and the transfers of those guns to him was kosher legally.
From my reading it sounds like the OP's aunt was given the guns well before the OP's grandfather died, and shortly after the death of the OP's grandfather the aunt sold the collection to her son-in-law, a CA resident. That doesn't appear to be an inheritance issue to me, since the aunt owned the guns well before the death occurred.

bwiese
10-04-2009, 3:53 PM
From my reading it sounds like the OP's aunt was given the guns well before the OP's grandfather died, and shortly after the death of the OP's grandfather the aunt sold the collection to her son-in-law, a CA resident. That doesn't appear to be an inheritance issue to me, since the aunt owned the guns well before the death occurred.

If that is indeed the case - I haven't gone back to re-read - then that transfer needed to run thru a CA FFL as it certainly wasn't "estate/probate exempt".

ricochet
10-04-2009, 4:36 PM
They are in possession of son-in-law. If he wants to sell/transfer them to you, that process will be just like acquiring them from a GunBroker auction:
- they've gotta go thru CA FFL;
- gun(s) have to be CA legal;
- handguns have to be either Rostered [or exempt single actions etc];
- not a PPT, so CA FFL can charge whatever he wants;
- one-non-PPT-handgun-a-month law is applicable.

For my own education, if he get's the son-in-law to sell the guns, how is this not a Private Party Transfer ?

ke6guj
10-04-2009, 4:43 PM
For my own education, if he get's the son-in-law to sell the guns, how is this not a Private Party Transfer ?I think that Bill thought the son-in-law was not a CA-resident at the time he posted that.

M9Man
10-04-2009, 8:29 PM
Tell the Aunt that the sale was illegal and that if she doesn't get the guns back she could go to federal prison. I'm sure that will make her ignorant behind scramble to undo her mistake. A similar thing happened to my Grandpa His Dad brought a really special Japanese rifle home from the war and years later when he died his Mom sold it at a garage sale for like 5$ while he was at work. She said the guy ran with it like he was afraid someone was going to take it from him. It was all my Grandpa could do to hold back the tears.

bsim
10-04-2009, 9:24 PM
From my understanding:
OP's Grandpa (Idaho resident) transferred guns to OP's Aunt (Idaho res.)
OP's Aunt then sold said guns to her Son-in-Law (CA Resident)

That means Son-in-law acquired firearms across state lines without an FFL, nor with an intrafamilial transfer.

Definite no-no.

Purple K
10-04-2009, 9:35 PM
I can put you in contact with an FFL that thinks it's rediculous to charge fees for each weapon in a situation like this. He'll do multiple transfers on a single background check. PM me.

MrClamperSir
10-04-2009, 9:46 PM
I pretty much had the same situation in my family. What I learned after years of bitterness, it boils down to one thing, if your grandfather cared enough about those guns going to the right people, he would've seen to it. A little loopy or not, everyone knows if there's no will there's no order. I know it's a tough pill to swallow because I went through the same heartache myself. I'd still try and do everything in my power to get 'em back but keep that mind for your own life and what you want leave behind and to whom.

Good luck.