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bolantej
10-02-2009, 2:55 AM
Okay, as far as I'm aware, whatever makes a magazine considered detachable or not depends on one's own interperetation of the law.

I was told today that the bullet button that can still release the magazine with the use of a "tool" such as a bullet, pencil, etc., is not legal and that a bullet is not a tool. I have not read the entire law and the definitions of such things, so can someone tell me if the requirements are that specific? I mean, does a tool need to be an actual, manufactured for screwing or whatever in order to be used legally?

See, my friend's family member has a gun shop, and was told that he could not take his newly assembled (including Prince magazine lock thingy) OLL out of the store without a 10 round magazine inside the well and "locked" in place or it would be illegal. The family member is somehow associated with LEOs and that's their take on it.

Please clear this up for me without a flamewar.

Thanks a bundle,
Jason

freakshow10mm
10-02-2009, 4:57 AM
There is text from the DOJ around here stating that a device which requires a tool is OK and that a bullet or bullet tip is considered a tool.

The spirit of the law seems to indicate if you can't use your digit (finger/thumb) to manipulate the release, that a tool is needed, and that is not a detachable mag.

elrcastor
10-02-2009, 6:15 AM
check out the flowchart http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf

in CCR 11 5469 (a) they defined a bullet as a tool

http://weblinks.westlaw.com/result/default.aspx?cnt=Document&db=CA-ADC-TOC;RVADCCATOC&docname=11CAADCS5469&findtype=W&fn=_top&ifm=NotSet&pbc=4BF3FCBE&rlt=CLID_FQRLT1136953149210&rp=/Search/default.wl&rs=WEBL9.09&service=Find&spa=CCR-1000&vr=2.0


The following definitions apply to terms used in the identification of assault weapons pursuant to Penal Code section 12276.1:
(a) "detachable magazine" means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool. Ammunition feeding device includes any belted or linked ammunition, but does not include clips, en bloc clips, or stripper clips that load cartridges into the magazine.

(b) "flash suppressor" means any device designed, intended, or that functions to perceptibly reduce or redirect muzzle flash from the shooter's field of vision.

(c) "forward pistol grip" means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp forward of the trigger.

(d) "pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon" means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing.

(e) "thumbhole stock" means a stock with a hole that allows the thumb of the trigger hand to penetrate into or through the stock while firing.


Note: Authority cited: Section 12276.5(i), Penal Code. Reference: Sections 12276.1, 12280 and 12285, Penal Code.

tenpercentfirearms
10-02-2009, 6:16 AM
http://www.tenpercentfirearms.com/index.php?main_page=ar15

All of what you say is FUD. It is not up to interpretation. The law is quite clear on what is a tool and what detachable means.

Greg-Dawg
10-02-2009, 7:01 AM
According to ^^^

If you have a semi-automatic, centerfire rifle that has a magazine that requires the use of a tool to remove, it does not meet the definition of a “detachable magazine” and as a result, the restrictions in PC 12276.1 do not apply.

Fate
10-02-2009, 7:39 AM
See, my friend's family member has a gun shop, and was told that he could not take his newly assembled (including Prince magazine lock thingy) OLL out of the store without a 10 round magazine inside the well and "locked" in place or it would be illegal. The family member is somehow associated with LEOs and that's their take on it.
As long as it is a new Prince Bulletbutton and not an old Prince 50. If the rifle had a Prince 50 mag lock on it but no mag, that WOULD be an illegal configuration. The bullet button design negates those issues.

Casual_Shooter
10-02-2009, 7:55 AM
Then don't use a bullet... use a punch or small screwdriver or something else you bought in the "Tool" department of Home Depot.

Problem solved.

Fate
10-02-2009, 8:10 AM
Bullet is specifically mentioned in the penal code as a qualifying "tool". Safer to use a bullet than virtually anything else because of that fact.

bolantej
10-02-2009, 9:11 AM
Ah-ha!

He said it was a Prince. It had a set screw that he would have to unscrew three turns in order to disengage the lock (thus converting it to a fully functioning mag release) and detach the magazine. Maybe that's the deal.

So, WTH is FUD, anyway? I figure it has something to do with BS, but while we're fooling around with definitions, I figured I'd make sure.

Thanks for the responses, folks.
As long as it is a new Prince Bulletbutton and not an old Prince 50. If the rifle had a Prince 50 mag lock on it but no mag, that WOULD be an illegal configuration. The bullet button design negates those issues.

djleisure
10-02-2009, 9:28 AM
FUD = Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt

...and it is often mis-used on these forums, so use it wisely...

bolantej
10-02-2009, 9:41 AM
:) GRRAAATSEE!

Checked out the definition of detachable magazine in the 80th page of the AW id guide on the attorney general's site, so I could see it with my own eyes. I will have to offer my friend a copy of it to show his relative.


Thanks again!

tvfreakarms
10-05-2009, 12:07 AM
Yea let us know what his relative said about it! I'm sure his ego won't get in the way:D

:) GRRAAATSEE!

Checked out the definition of detachable magazine in the 80th page of the AW id guide on the attorney general's site, so I could see it with my own eyes. I will have to offer my friend a copy of it to show his relative.


Thanks again!