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GlockOn
10-02-2009, 2:14 AM
So I had an interesting conversation with Bushmaster today. The situation started about a week ago when I had a customer bring in a complete Bushmaster Carbon 15 Lower. The problem was pretty apparent right off the bat. On the lower receiver, where the buffer tube screws in, the receiver had cracked and separated right along the top, if you are familiar with the Carbon 15 there is a very obvious marking there that shows a joint. It had cracked badly enough that the buffer tube had fallen off. The customer claimed that he had not even fired the gun.

I put in a call to Bushmaster and explained the problem to them, hoping to get the item warrantied. I asked the Bushmaster Rep if he wanted me to send the entire lower including the magazine.

"There is a magazine" he says.
"Yes there is" I reply.
"So it has an open mag well?" he says.
"Yes it does" I reply.
"We aren't gonna touch that, you can't have any open mag well AR-15 rifles in California" he replies.

After discussing the wonders of California law with this guy, he finally tells me to send him whatever I have. So I sent that stuff off last week.
So yesterday I get a call back from him, stating that Bushmaster is going to refuse to warranty the lower because it has been modified. I ask him how he knows it's been modified. He tells me they know it has been modified because it is an open mag well, and that it is illegal in California. He is suggesting that the receiver started life with a closed magazine well and has been milled out, and also specifically stating that the buffer retainer channel has been milled out to make it deeper... I asked him what the purpose of that would even be in the first place and he told me he didn't know, but that their engineers had discovered this modification as well. We go back to talking about CA law and I again explain to him what California laws actually apply. He tells me that Bushmaster employs a person who deals solely in the area of California law.

Side story: About a month ago we had another Carbon 15 lower returned to us due to a manufacturer defect. This one was missing the hole for the role pin that holds the bolt catch. Bushmaster had apparently decided that hole being there was overrated or something and decided not to drill it. GO QUALITY CONTROL!!! Anyway, they had sent me a new lower in that case, one with an open mag well.

Back to the original story: I tell him that I am holding a lower in my hand that they just returned to me last week that has an open mag well, and he proceeds to tell me that is not possible.... The rep then tells me that they work very closely with BATFE when it comes to CA law. When I told him that DOJ would actually be more accurate he tells me that any law regulating CA is enforced solely by BATFE.

In any case, he tells me that because this lower has been "modified" that they are not going to warranty the "manufacturer defect." I'm not convinced that the lower has been modified, if it has, it was a professional job, because I didn't see any evidence. While I understand the sentiment of not wanting to warranty a "modified" receiver, I think it is poor customer service in any case. Kind of like if my mechanic refused to honor the warranty on my engine because I painted my car. Again let me specify that I am not convinced this is a modified lower.

I feel like Bushmaster could have stepped up to the plate and just simply taken care of a customer, but apparently, they aren't in a position to stand behind their product. I feel they are just looking for excuses to not replace defective product. So it looks like the Gun Shop is going to have to eat the cost of a new lower, which is not the end of the world, rather the cost of doing business, but also not really what I feel to be the appropriate solution. We are not going to leave our customer out in the cold over this, because it wasn't his fault. I don't believe he modified this lower.

I (personally) don't deal with companies that do not back their product, and today Bushmaster added their name to that list. It is my belief that they make an inferior product, especially in the Carbon 15 series. Let me also mention that both of these receivers were special orders, we stocked the Carbon 15 for a brief time, and quickly discovered that not only were they not good sellers, they were not of superior quality. I have attempted to advise all customers to avoid that product line, but obviously not with 100% success.

Bottom line, maybe the lower was modified, I am not an expert, but even if it was, it would cost them virtually nothing to back the customer and fix the problem, but they would rather hang a customer out to dry than take care of an issue, and that to me is very disappointing. I informed the rep of my feelings and he said "Everyone is entitled to their opinion, have a good day" and hung up.

Let me also say, I do not necessarily speak on behalf of Ade's Gun Shop. There are times when I speak solely on behalf of the shop, this is not one of those times. Thanks for reading, I'd be interested to hear what you guys think.... maybe I'm completely in the wrong. I'm aware of the status quo, and I'm sure that what I got from Bushmaster, I just sometimes expect a little above and beyond service.

SJgunguy24
10-02-2009, 2:51 AM
Way to back your product and your customers. If Bushmaster doesn't feel like their product is worth backing, then it ain't worth buying.

B Strong
10-02-2009, 4:56 AM
Carbon fiber is amazing stuff, and when it is properly manufactured it can be very useful.

I've never been convinced that the Carbon15 or Bushmaster receivers were properly engineered wrt the CF matrix, and the fact that CF detrioriates from UV exposure makes me even more skeptical that it's a good material for stressed parts in a firearm.

I bet that Bushmaster is having a ton of warranty returns on these, and is running for the tall grass trying to cover their collective behind.

tenpercentfirearms
10-02-2009, 6:20 AM
Glad I don't do Bushmaster. You should have given him your contact info and told him to look up your RMA.

Screw Bushmaster!

I sure do like my 20" V-Match for shooting critters though.

ZombieKiller
10-02-2009, 6:47 AM
Thanks for the info.......no Bushy for me.

eaglemike
10-02-2009, 8:09 AM
Thanks for your well reasoned post. Bushmaster has some issues with these lowers, and they aren't stepping up to the plate. I've handled several of these lowers at gun shows. Give me a good machined 7075 forging any day, or a "billet" version...... :) and a company that will back up their products. I've purchased some goodies direct from Bushmaster, and it's very disappointing to hear they don't know and/or understand the current legal situation - and evidently aren't will to listen.

all the best,
Mike

Riptide
10-02-2009, 8:15 AM
Andrew,

Way to go standing up for the customer. No more Bushmaster for me.

WokMaster1
10-02-2009, 8:30 AM
He tells me that Bushmaster employs a person who deals solely in the area of California law.

.

Kathy Lynch?????:eek:

Solidsnake87
10-02-2009, 9:03 AM
Way to go standing up for the customer. No more Bushmaster for me.

Same here. From now on, I'm sticking to RRA and CMMG.

Bowser
10-02-2009, 9:16 AM
Ha, I knew bushmaster sucked. Glad I'm going with BCM. Much higher wuality than any RRA, CMMG, Stag, etc.

Low-Pressure
10-02-2009, 9:25 AM
thank you for posting this, and thank you for being a good businessman. time to avoid bushy's

Variable2147
10-02-2009, 11:43 AM
Carbon fiber is amazing stuff, and when it is properly manufactured it can be very useful.

I've never been convinced that the Carbon15 or Bushmaster receivers were properly engineered wrt the CF matrix, and the fact that CF detrioriates from UV exposure makes me even more skeptical that it's a good material for stressed parts in a firearm.

Yeah, I'm just a know-nothing, but I'd put my money on a cav15 polymer over carbon fiber.

xm177
10-02-2009, 12:06 PM
In today's market there's really no reason to deal with a sub par company like Bushmaster. For around $900 you can get a CMMG or Smith & Wesson base model that won't quit. Kudos to your good service, Andrew.

Black Majik
10-02-2009, 12:17 PM
Bravo Andrew for sticking up for the customer.

Greg-Dawg
10-02-2009, 12:46 PM
The only "good thing" about Bushmaster is that the Washington DC sniper used one.

I have a Bushie bolt carrier assembly...it's good to go.

Jicko
10-02-2009, 12:48 PM
I will stick with my AL. No carbon 15 for me.

B Strong
10-02-2009, 12:52 PM
Yeah, I'm just a know-nothing, but I'd put my money on a cav15 polymer over carbon fiber.

I'm not a fan of the Cav unit either, for that matter, but my CF guru friend showed me CF/kevlar weaves that were bulletproof, literally, but they'd be so hard to machine for firearms receiver use that a lower (his best swag looking at a stripped lower) made from his stuff would be between 1k - 2k $.

I'll stick to the aluminum tackle.

professionalcoyotehunter
10-02-2009, 12:53 PM
I will avoid bushy's now.

akjunkie
10-02-2009, 12:58 PM
That is sad to hear. All my Pre-Ban Registered AWs (upper & lowers) are Bushmasters.

ke6guj
10-02-2009, 1:08 PM
In any case, he tells me that because this lower has been "modified" that they are not going to warranty the "manufacturer defect." I'm not convinced that the lower has been modified, if it has, it was a professional job, because I didn't see any evidence. While I understand the sentiment of not wanting to warranty a "modified" receiver, I think it is poor customer service in any case. Kind of like if my mechanic refused to honor the warranty on my engine because I painted my car. Again let me specify that I am not convinced this is a modified lower. IIRC, for warranty issues, if the modification did not cause the problem, then they ca't void the entire warranty, just items that could be affected by it.

So, to use you car example, if you modded the engine and the power windows stopped working, they would be covered, even though the engine wouldn't. Or, if the trans or rear-end went out, they may not be covered if the increased performance of the engine caused the failure.


You would think that Bushmaster has a way to differentiate between the open and closed magwell versions. Either with a different serial number range, or some other mold marking.

Variable2147
10-02-2009, 3:48 PM
I'm not a fan of the Cav unit either, for that matter, but my CF guru friend showed me CF/kevlar weaves that were bulletproof, literally, but they'd be so hard to machine for firearms receiver use that a lower (his best swag looking at a stripped lower) made from his stuff would be between 1k - 2k $.

I'll stick to the aluminum tackle.

im not saying im a fan of cav either, but i would invest my money there before i did on a carbon-15....the cav-15 is lifetime guaranteed. the website says even if your car lights on fire and the thing melts into a pile of goo....send em the pile of miss-shapen polymer and they'll replace it....sounds like the opposite of the bushy customer service

DarkHorse
10-02-2009, 5:34 PM
Ha, I knew bushmaster sucked. Glad I'm going with BCM. Much higher wuality than any RRA, CMMG, Stag, etc.

lol

BCM may be wuality, but your spelling is not.

supersonic
10-02-2009, 5:59 PM
Thanks for the heads up! I was just about to pull the trigger on a Bushmaster A2 DCM upper. Now, I'm going with ArmaLite (way better, anyway!).:D

missiontrails
10-02-2009, 6:06 PM
Ha, I knew bushmaster sucked. Glad I'm going with BCM. Much higher wuality than any RRA, CMMG, Stag, etc.

Hmmmm... Any reason you included CMMG with RRA and Stag? I'm just curious, do you know what you are talking about? Read and learn:http://forums.officer.com/showthread.php?t=81462

Justintoxicated
10-02-2009, 7:08 PM
bushmaster lowers are in fact banned by model number in California "Beshmaster XM15 (all)"

Dunno about the carbon fiber ones, but they are just trying to cover their ***. I would provide a reference to the law that bans AW by model, and a link to the flowchart to show that it is a legal lower. I would not expect them to know all of our laws... Thats just what we have to deal with here.

Ask to a manger that understands / knows the California gun laws.

Another email or two and you will not have to eat the cost...

evollep3
10-02-2009, 7:09 PM
good thing i dont do bushmasters

Justintoxicated
10-02-2009, 7:13 PM
Hmmmm... Any reason you included CMMG with RRA and Stag? I'm just curious, do you know what you are talking about? Read and learn:http://forums.officer.com/showthread.php?t=81462

I own one of each upper, they both shoot great, the biggest difference is the finish on the barrel on the BCM is better.

eaglemike
10-02-2009, 7:21 PM
bushmaster lowers are in fact banned by model number in California "Beshmaster XM15 (all)"

Dunno about the carbon fiber ones, but they are just trying to cover their ***. I would provide a reference to the law that bans AW by model, and a link to the flowchart to show that it is a legal lower. I would not expect them to know all of our laws... Thats just what we have to deal with here.

Ask to a manger that understands / knows the California gun laws.

Another email or two and you will not have to eat the cost...
Ummm, the Bushmaster Carbon 15 is not on the banned list...... It's not a Bushmaster XM15......

Bowser
10-02-2009, 7:35 PM
Hmmmm... Any reason you included CMMG with RRA and Stag? I'm just curious, do you know what you are talking about? Read and learn:http://forums.officer.com/showthread.php?t=81462

Do you know what YOU'RE talking about?

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA

Bladewurk
10-02-2009, 8:13 PM
Back in the Dark Ages of AR building I bought all Bushy stuff from Quality Parts to build up an AR, this was in 1990..couldn't even get chrome lined barrels back then unless they were old USGI. Nice 1st build on an Essential Arms Cast Lower..hell I was 19!

Bushmaster/Quality parts was one of the best way back when but their competition was NESARD and SARCO and they have not kept up with the competition.
The last 2 uppers I got from them were jamamatics, one was obviously torqued incorrectly.

After the "beltway sniper" settlement and the marketing of inferior quality Professional Ordnance plastic guns with shoddy warranties I washed my hands of Bushmaster..

missiontrails
10-02-2009, 9:51 PM
Do you know what YOU'RE talking about?

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA

Bad comeback. Again, why do you put CMMG with RRA and Stag? BTW, that list is OFF on the CMMG BCG, and that would have given you a few more pretty blue squares. All CMMG BCG's are shot peened, properly staked, and not a black insert, a BLUE insert. Have you ever seen a RRA or Stag with a 1/7 4150CMV barrel? Oh, that's what I thought. Oh ya, NOT having a staked receiver endplate allowed me to remove the stock assembly easily so I could install the stock I wanted, and sell the CMMG stock Assy with all parts for good $$. CMMG also let's you upgrade to a FA BCG at NO extra cost if that is what you want. Double shielded handguards are a $20 upgrade. H buffer? I run a 9mm buffer in my M4's. I will take the double finish of the CMMG (Hard anodizing with a secondary Teflon coating) over most. That chart is usefull for the hard features like barrel material and construction, but totally GAY for everything else. I am NOT saying CMMG is the best, just defending the fact that they don't belong where you put them. See, I just added 5 more blue squares for your chart that somehow, someone missed.

So yes, I do know what I'm talking about.

Bowser
10-02-2009, 10:17 PM
CMMG bolts are not properly staked. I around them everyday, and many have come back because the gas key loosened up and had to go through a MOACKS tool.

Blue orings are for rifle length rifles, not carbine.

CMMG barrel steel isn't up to nor tested per TDP.

missiontrails
10-02-2009, 10:26 PM
CMMG bolts are not properly staked. I around them everyday, and many have come back because the gas key loosened up and had to go through a MOACKS tool.

Blue orings are for rifle length rifles, not carbine.

CMMG barrel steel isn't up to nor tested per TDP.

I will post a pic of my BCG tomorrow, and you can then tell me mine is not staked properly. I have a pocket MOACKS tool, and I have used it on Young MFG BCG's in the past. My CMMG came staked like a mother. Barrel steel is up to TDP, but not HP tested. It is MP tested. Again, defend your putting the CMMG in the same bed with RRA and Stag, that was my original question.

robairto
10-02-2009, 10:43 PM
Bottom line, maybe the lower was modified, I am not an expert, but even if it was, it would cost them virtually nothing to back the customer and fix the problem, but they would rather hang a customer out to dry than take care of an issue, and that to me is very disappointing. I informed the rep of my feelings and he said "Everyone is entitled to their opinion, have a good day" and hung up.
.

They run a business and people who modify the part void the warranty and it's pretty easy to tell if the lower has been altered. Bad press etc. is part of the process and BM has been moving product and will continue to do so. I own a C15/Dissipator/Predator and I cut the bottom out of my C15. I contacted BM first and they said it will void the warranty. I can deal with that now lowers are $100 again. Just my .02 but the customer needs to deal with the consequences of poor decisions. I do applaud your efforts none the less.

maxima
10-02-2009, 11:05 PM
Looks like BM is among one of worst CS. I never ordered any BM stuff, definitely not in the future. There are so many AR 15 manufactures/vendors and products that far better than BM.

Bowser
10-02-2009, 11:11 PM
I will post a pic of my BCG tomorrow, and you can then tell me mine is not staked properly. I have a pocket MOACKS tool, and I have used it on Young MFG BCG's in the past. My CMMG came staked like a mother. Barrel steel is up to TDP, but not HP tested. It is MP tested. Again, defend your putting the CMMG in the same bed with RRA and Stag, that was my original question.

Because I dislike all three of those brands. Don't get your panties in a bunch because you bought a a CMMG when there are better manufacturers out there.

Plisk
10-02-2009, 11:37 PM
Because I dislike all three of those brands. Don't get your panties in a bunch because you bought a a CMMG when there are better manufacturers out there.

Please don't crap on this thread with an un-related issue. Especially since your basis for an argument is your own personal opinion.

Merc1138
10-03-2009, 1:51 AM
CMMG bolts are not properly staked. I around them everyday, and many have come back because the gas key loosened up and had to go through a MOACKS tool.

Blue orings are for rifle length rifles, not carbine.

CMMG barrel steel isn't up to nor tested per TDP.

So my CMMG BCG just magically staked itself overnight when I wasn't looking?

missiontrails
10-03-2009, 7:16 AM
Because I dislike all three of those brands. Don't get your panties in a bunch because you bought a a CMMG when there are better manufacturers out there.

Buddy, I have bought at least $18,000 worth of AR's over the past year (check my iTrader). :oMy last short term rifle was a Noveske Recce Low Profile.. So don't sit there and assume I'm a noob that just chose my first rifle. I PROMISE that I have had more rifles than you, including RRA, but not Stag.

My apologies to the OP. Regarding Bushmaster, 2 of my past ones (8 years ago) had canted front sights, but my recent uppers have been decent. Bushmaster has always been responsive to my questions, but I have never been in your situation with them.

eric90503
10-03-2009, 8:06 AM
That is sad to hear. All my Pre-Ban Registered AWs (upper & lowers) are Bushmasters.

:rolleyes:

Don't let some of these guys get to you. Just because it's on the internet does not mean its truth. Hell, a lot of these guys (not all) are mall ninjas just getting into the hobby. They can have fun with their bullet button neutered AR's...

My stock Bushmasters shoot great all day long. Professional ordinance originally designed the C15. Bushmaster picked up the company and modified the existing design, which sucked real bad. Function improved greatly. But with the OP I feel CF is not the choice for receivers. Just because a business made one bad choice, doesn't mean every product is
crap.

Bushmasters are good to go my friend.

eaglemike
10-03-2009, 8:20 AM
:rolleyes:

Don't let some of these guys get to you. Just because it's on the internet does not mean its truth. Hell, a lot of these guys (not all) are mall ninjas just getting into the hobby. They can have fun with their bullet button neutered AR's...

My stock Bushmasters shoot great all day long. Professional ordinance originally designed the C15. Bushmaster picked up the company and modified the existing design, which sucked real bad. Function improved greatly. But with the OP I feel CF is not the choice for receivers. Just because a business made one bad choice, doesn't mean every product is
crap.

Bushmasters are good to go my friend.
Truer words were never spoken. However...

The thread isn't about bashing all of Bushmaster's products. It's about Bushmaster not stepping up and supporting a product they sell. Get a clue.

ETA: I do have a front sight assembly I purchased from Bushmaster, part of a national match kit. The set screw hole is not tapped, and the remaining metal there is so thin there would only be 1 1/2 threads. Maybe it should be a bash thread.

Justintoxicated
10-03-2009, 10:20 AM
Ummm, the Bushmaster Carbon 15 is not on the banned list...... It's not a Bushmaster XM15......

Thats what I said, but it's easily possible that someone hears Bushmasters are on the banned list (They are) and just assumes it is all bushmasters.

reidnez
10-03-2009, 10:46 AM
I don't think it's necessarily that Bushmaster makes bad rifles, they make the same rifles they always have. It's just that so many other manufacturers (especially newer ones) have stepped up their game. We no longer have to choose between Colt and crap (not saying that Bushies are crap), because there are now a couple of additional top-shelf manufacturers, and numerous very good middle-of-the-road companies that are putting out excellent rifles for the money.

Bushmaster is a behemoth in the AR world and their stuff is still selling just fine, so I guess they haven't really felt the need to implement some of the sensible improvements that other MFR's have made.

akjunkie
10-03-2009, 11:35 AM
:rolleyes:

Don't let some of these guys get to you. Just because it's on the internet does not mean its truth. Hell, a lot of these guys (not all) are mall ninjas just getting into the hobby. They can have fun with their bullet button neutered AR's...

My stock Bushmasters shoot great all day long. Professional ordinance originally designed the C15. Bushmaster picked up the company and modified the existing design, which sucked real bad. Function improved greatly. But with the OP I feel CF is not the choice for receivers. Just because a business made one bad choice, doesn't mean every product is
crap.

Bushmasters are good to go my friend.


No worries, I bought all my Bushmaster products Pre Y2K.
Just meant to say I have always been a Bushmaster customer and it is sad to hear they are "going downhill" in regards to some of their products and customer service.

Bowser
10-03-2009, 5:17 PM
So my CMMG BCG just magically staked itself overnight when I wasn't looking?

Just because it was dented in partially doesn't mean it's properly staked.

missiontrails
10-03-2009, 5:39 PM
Just because it was dented in partially doesn't mean it's properly staked.

Dude, you are fighting a losing battle here.. Does this look like a dent to you?
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=228034

Bowser
10-03-2009, 5:42 PM
You show me a sample of 1 and maybe a few people here might have staked carriers, but I am around a lot of these uppers and I check them all out and they all don't come staked properly, having to tighten them on up and using a moacks tool. This is enough to show that the uppers are not QC'd very well and there is a lot of inconstancy. This alone is enough to put me off from the brand. I don't care how many rifles you buy, you don't go through and check lots of 20 at a time and see how poorly these products come out of the box. It's ridiculous.

missiontrails
10-03-2009, 6:31 PM
You show me a sample of 1 and maybe a few people here might have staked carriers, but I am around a lot of these uppers and I check them all out and they all don't come staked properly, having to tighten them on up and using a moacks tool. This is enough to show that the uppers are not QC'd very well and there is a lot of inconstancy. This alone is enough to put me off from the brand. I don't care how many rifles you buy, you don't go through and check lots of 20 at a time and see how poorly these products come out of the box. It's ridiculous.

Please tell me where you could be "checking lots of 20" different makes and models "out of the box"? Do you work in a store?

1988
10-03-2009, 6:58 PM
Carbon 15 is an AR, and I'm surprise to see no one comparing the Bushy Carbon 15 to Kel-tec SU16...

:D:D:D

freonr22
10-06-2009, 8:11 PM
response from bushmaster:

Thank you for the link. According to the CA DOJ, Our carbon top loader is the only rifle we can sell in CA. It does have a sealed mag well. Trust me if CA could open up again it would be a big part of our business again.


Thank You....

Harvey Macomber
Customer Service / Sales
Bushmaster Firearms International, LLC
Office: 1-800-883-6229 ext.286
Fax: 207-892-8068


F
Posted At: Saturday, October 03, 2009 3:12 AM
Posted To: Customer Service Email
Conversation: fyi bad press concerning you. I am not involved
Subject: fyi bad press concerning you. I am not involved
Importance: High

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=227624





By the way this is not me



quote from calguns.net.



also you really should look @ California gun laws



http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/../caawid/flowchart.pdf)