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Phil3
10-01-2009, 7:21 PM
Would appreciate comments from those who shoot F-Class, F/TR, long range benchrest, or even tactical.

I recently shot a Benchrest heavy gun at 1000 yards. I rather did not like the fact that once you adjust for wind and mirage (no small feat), you just touch the trigger, not holding the rifle, the gun sliding back in the bags. There is no feedback on shots, and since you can not see bullet holes at 1000 yards, you adjust point of aim and shoot based on wind conditions, and how your "sighter" shots (marked by a person in the target pits) looked during (hopefully) similar conditions.

Call me old fashioned, but shooting for groups seems a bit odd to me. Is not the point to hit what you are aiming at, the "X"? Benchrest does score for this in addition to groups, but "groups" seems odd to me, unless grouped around the X.

In F-Class, if I understand correctly, shots are marked after each shot. F/TR, restricted to 223 and 308 sounds appealing, but 1000 pretty much eliminates the 223 except for outstanding shooters, and the 308 is dropping like a rock at that distance, presenting a daunting task for a newbie. F-Class can give you great long distance rounds, but gets into exotica and high cost.

Would appreciate experiences of those who have shot in any of these disciplines and perhaps correct any misconceptions or information I have. I just want to get off on the right foot for long distance shooting and welcome any comments from those who have already traveled this road. I would be shooting in Sacramento.

Thanks.

- Phil

Ahhnother8
10-01-2009, 8:46 PM
Pthfndr has fired all those types of matches and many more. Probably not so much benchrest, but I've seen him testing off the bench at short range. He can give you the straight scoop. From my perspective, you need to shoot all the different types of matches before jumping in the deep end. Each has different equipment requirements, if you want to be competitive. If you don't care, there can be a lot of cross-over in equipment.

Short synopsis:

LR benchrest - kind of an anal crowd, secrets are a little bit tightly held, equipment is mostly high-end.

Tactical - the mall-ninja tacticool crowd, which dresses the part, and some of them even know how to shoot. :eek:

F-class (open) - expensive equipment to be competitive, people very open with information, lots of matches locally and throughout the world. The World Championships were last Summer in England.

F-class TR (.223 / .308) - relatively economical, people very open with information, lots of matches locally and throughout the world. The World Championships were last Summer in England.

Palma / prone / XTC - mostly .223 and .308, extremely competitive, equipment can be inexpensive or exotic, information is freely shared, Sacramento has some of the best competitors in the world, lots of matches locally and worldwide, the friendliest group of shooters of all. No bias here!!

Lane

ocabj
10-01-2009, 9:18 PM
If you wanted to shoot in an actual long range discipline, then F-Class T/R is the least expensive.

All you need is a rifle in .308 with a decent scope, a bipod, and good ammo.

You could shoot Palma for a low entry cost with the Savage 12 Palma gun:
http://www.savagearms.com/12palma.htm. Add a Phoenix Precision rear sight and a 30mm front sight like the Right sight (about $900 for the sight pair). Then you'll need a spotting scope, scope stand, shooting coat, and sling. Oh, and good ammo.

I still haven't shot in a sanctioned NRA LR match, just at open practice matches. I shoot specifically High Power Rifle (aka Across the Course). But I have a match rifle that I built in 6mmBR at the beginning of the year that works for NRA MR and LR. For me it's easy to crossover into NRA LR since all of my equipment (shooting coat, spotting scope, scope stand, shooting card, etc) that I use in High Power transfers over to NRA MR and LR.

So for someone who doesn't shoot any sanctioned LR format, I would recommend F-T/R. There's nothing wrong with .308 at 1000. Yes, there are better 1000 yard cartridges. But when you shoot in a specific category, you're shooting against the other people in the same category. Thus, F-T/R in .308 won't be up against F-open 6.5x284 rifles.

Pthfndr
10-01-2009, 9:32 PM
Phil

If you want to see what kind of matches and equipment is out there, we have the following things going on at the Sac Valley range this month.

This Sunday you can observe the monthly long range tactical rifle match. We sign in at 7:30, start shooting shortly after 8 and the match runs till abut 12:30.

Then Saturday the 10th, is a "across the course" (XTC) High Power match, shot at 200, 300, 600 yards. Time frame is essentially the same and observers are always welcome.
Also on Saturday the 10th, on the steel silhouette range is the tactical rifle steel match you could check out. They shoot out to 550 yards on reactive steel from various positions.

The next day, Sunday the 11th, is a 3 x 600 yard match where you will see Palma shooters, High Power shooters, and F Class shooters. Same time frame and of course observers are welcome.

Come to any of those, hang out after the match is over and ask all the questions you want. Everyone is friendly.

On the bench rest thing. Most people don't get it, but bench rest is all about the rifle and ammo. If you think it's no big deal you'd be wrong. They have to dope the wind at long range the same as any of the other shooting disciplines. Sure, they don't shoot from positions, but there is a lot that has to be done to shoot little tiny groups over and over and over. And if it wasn't for the bench rest crowd a lot of the great cartridges would not exist. They are the R&D department of the shooting world.

Nothing wrong with a .308 for long range. It just means you need to learn to read the wind better than someone shooting a "hot rod" cartridge. The nice thing about a .308 or .223 is that you can shoot thousands of rounds learning before the barrel needs to be replaced. Not so with a lot of others.

F T/R is probably the least expensive way to get into long range shooting. And the same rifle could also be used in tactical long range matches. AR15barrels has pinned thread in one of the other forums which breaks down what kind of $$$ you'd be looking at to get into tactical type competition: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=214398 Savage makes some models which would also be suitable.

Which ever you choose to try, don't think that getting something that shoots a hot rod cartridge will make life easier. From 800 yards out, until you learn to read the wind you will struggle. Ahhnother8 (Lane) is a Palma shooter and shoots a .308. While he is too humble to say anything, I will tell you, he is one of the best long range shooters you will ever meet. He does things with a .308 I only wish I could do with my 6.5 rifle. Why, because he knows how to read the wind. That's the name of the game at long range and IMO that's what makes it satisfying when one does well when the wind blows.

Bug Splat
10-01-2009, 9:45 PM
Short synopsis:

LR benchrest - kind of an anal crowd, secrets are a little bit tightly held, equipment is mostly high-end.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA you nailed it. I got very little help from some of the guys I used to shot against. Don't get me wrong we all have fun and they did open up after a few matches but over all they like to size up a new shooter before they go blabbing about their equipment.

Benchrest actually isn't much about the shooting but about the prep. Small groups are made from the reloading bench and how much time you put into you rifle. Its allllllllll about being anal and doing everything exactly the same. For those of us that do shoot bench the fun is in the process and not so much the shooting. When I look at groups I don't look at how well I shot but how well I made the loads.

Phil3
10-02-2009, 7:35 AM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA you nailed it. I got very little help from some of the guys I used to shot against. Don't get me wrong we all have fun and they did open up after a few matches but over all they like to size up a new shooter before they go blabbing about their equipment.

Benchrest actually isn't much about the shooting but about the prep. Small groups are made from the reloading bench and how much time you put into you rifle. Its allllllllll about being anal and doing everything exactly the same. For those of us that do shoot bench the fun is in the process and not so much the shooting. When I look at groups I don't look at how well I shot but how well I made the loads.

My host who took me as a shooter-guest to a benchrest match said kind of the same thing about other shooters. He said other shooters may sometimes decline to answer questions, or if they know, may tell you to talk to someone else, so they can avoid answering. Still, at the two matches I have attended, technical matters were being discussed, but I suspect not enough to give away trade secrets. It is difficult to determine what someone is NOT telling you.

Your second paragraph hits on what bothers me about benchrest. It appears to be less about shooting than ammo prep and top notch equipment. Although, at 1000 yards, substantial shooter skill IS required for handling wind and mirage. I don't know, just doesn't seem as "right" as shooting off a bipod, having to look at the grass and trees for wind.

- Phil

Bug Splat
10-02-2009, 8:09 AM
Your second paragraph hits on what bothers me about benchrest. It appears to be less about shooting than ammo prep and top notch equipment. Although, at 1000 yards, substantial shooter skill IS required for handling wind and mirage. I don't know, just doesn't see as "right" as shooting off a bipod, having to look at the grass and trees for wind.

- Phil

Yeah, its not the funnest form of shooting but more like a game of chess. I've never met someone who walked away from a game of chess and said "YEAH BABY! THAT KICKED ARSE!!!!". Its a slow mans activity. A lot of us shooters even refrain from caffeine because an over stimulated heart beat can open up groups via the pulsing vain through your cheek. There is a little tip for ya ;).

F-class can be just as anal. A good buddy of mine does a lot of F-class. He calls it Bench shooting without the bench. Many of the guys who get bored shooting bench move to f-class.

I have yet to try Tactical but I sure want to. Looks like a lot of fun.

ocabj
10-02-2009, 8:11 AM
Although, at 1000 yards, substantial shooter skill IS required for handling wind and mirage. I don't know, just doesn't see as "right" as shooting off a bipod, having to look at the grass and trees for wind.

- Phil

Benchrest vs mechanical rest (bipod) vs sling is are the same when it comes to reading wind.

The difference is the added variables of shooter error. Just because I'm prone with the rifle using only a sling for support and iron sights, it doesn't mean I read the wind any different than another guy shooting off a bench. We're both going to be looking at the mirage and wind flags.

Phil3
10-02-2009, 8:12 AM
Pthfndr has fired all those types of matches and many more. Probably not so much benchrest, but I've seen him testing off the bench at short range. He can give you the straight scoop. From my perspective, you need to shoot all the different types of matches before jumping in the deep end. Each has different equipment requirements, if you want to be competitive. If you don't care, there can be a lot of cross-over in equipment.

Short synopsis:

LR benchrest - kind of an anal crowd, secrets are a little bit tightly held, equipment is mostly high-end.

Tactical - the mall-ninja tacticool crowd, which dresses the part, and some of them even know how to shoot. :eek:

F-class (open) - expensive equipment to be competitive, people very open with information, lots of matches locally and throughout the world. The World Championships were last Summer in England.

F-class TR (.223 / .308) - relatively economical, people very open with information, lots of matches locally and throughout the world. The World Championships were last Summer in England.

Palma / prone / XTC - mostly .223 and .308, extremely competitive, equipment can be inexpensive or exotic, information is freely shared, Sacramento has some of the best competitors in the world, lots of matches locally and worldwide, the friendliest group of shooters of all. No bias here!!

Lane

How can one shoot (try out) all the different matches without having the equipment to do so? I managed to borrow a gun for benchrest, with luck.

Is Palma/prone/XTC (across the course), all with iron sights?

Ideally, I wish to use a scope, bipod, from a fixed position of 600 yards, shooting heavy 223 or something similar with minimal recoil, off a bench. I do not think there is such a thing, with the closest being F/TR at 600 yards, which is prone (I can do).

- Phil

cfm117
10-02-2009, 2:50 PM
I shoot sanctioned XTC 200,300,600. It's all with iron sights, which is why I enjoy it. It takes alot of practice to shoot 1 or 2 MOA at 600 with iron sights from the prone w/ no rest. I started getting serious about it about 2 years ago. My current XTC high score is 747/800. You can get to a certain point with basic gear like a mat, cheap scope and maybe a jacket. But to reach into the 700's you will need to start thinking about every little detail, trying to squeeze out more points. Weapon upgrades can get pricey as well as investing in reloading gear to start making 80gr A max's
and such. I'm gonna start seriously training here for next years Presidents Hundred at Perry. So basically once you get to a certain point, it becomes heavily gear dependent.

Jicko
10-02-2009, 2:55 PM
Short synopsis:

LR benchrest - kind of an anal crowd, secrets are a little bit tightly held, equipment is mostly high-end.

Tactical - the mall-ninja tacticool crowd, which dresses the part, and some of them even know how to shoot. :eek:

F-class (open) - expensive equipment to be competitive, people very open with information, lots of matches locally and throughout the world. The World Championships were last Summer in England.

F-class TR (.223 / .308) - relatively economical, people very open with information, lots of matches locally and throughout the world. The World Championships were last Summer in England.

Palma / prone / XTC - mostly .223 and .308, extremely competitive, equipment can be inexpensive or exotic, information is freely shared, Sacramento has some of the best competitors in the world, lots of matches locally and worldwide, the friendliest group of shooters of all. No bias here!!

Lane


OMG~~~~

:popcorn:


"Tactical"
- shoots at targets at various distances up to 1k yds/meter (or capability of your caliber)
- shoots in the day, shoots at the night too
- shoots steel (instant feedback), shoots paper targets (accuracy), and a mix of shoot/no-shoot targets
- shoots in prone, or improvised positions (thru barricades, portholes, sitting, kneeing, standing, on a tower, on the truck bed, on top of a car's hood, on rooftop, or even on a helicopter etc)
- shooters are friendly too....


"Palma/prone/XTC"
- shoots at ONLY a few distances, 200, 300, 500, 600, 1000?
- I don't think they shoot at night
- shoots ONLY paper, just a few authorized targets (couple of "sighter" shots, and then, you are on your own)
- shoots in prone, sitting, standing (depending on the rules, just the same thing over and over again
- OK, the shooter are friendly....


Now... OP, you pick.... :D

Ahhnother8
10-02-2009, 7:35 PM
How can one shoot (try out) all the different matches without having the equipment to do so? I managed to borrow a gun for benchrest, with luck.

Is Palma/prone/XTC (across the course), all with iron sights?

Ideally, I wish to use a scope, bipod, from a fixed position of 600 yards, shooting heavy 223 or something similar with minimal recoil, off a bench. I do not think there is such a thing, with the closest being F/TR at 600 yards, which is prone (I can do).

- Phil

Do you have a hunting rifle, a varmint rifle, a SBR? Most people start out with the "wrong" equipment. Then if they decide to pursue a given shooting game they begin the process of accumulating the "right" equipment. We've all been there. I have fired in two tactical matches recently with a single shot Palma rifle. Kinda difficult to get two shots off in 6 seconds, but it was just to see what that game was all about.

Yes, Palma, Fullbore, and XTC is all iron sights. Some of the prone stuff is with a scope, if desired. There are not a lot of any sight matches around though. October 11 at Sac is a 60 shot 600 yard match - prone - any caliber and any sights.

Regarding your ideal noted above, 600 yard benchrest is for you. You can shoot with a bipod, but you will be at a disadvantage. The 6BR is the ultimate 600 yard caliber, which is light recoiling, easy to load for, with widely available components and data. Just not many available matches with that exact format. In fact, there are not a lot of just 600 yard matches in any of the games.

F-class and prone have a lot of matches at Sac, Coalinga, and Reno. Depending upon the type of match, you may shoot from 300, 500, 600, 800, 900, or 1000 yards. Though probably not all on the same day. It just depends...

Lane

Pthfndr
10-02-2009, 8:16 PM
OMG~~~~

:popcorn:




Take it easy there Jicko. Ahhnother8 knows me, Vu, and the rest of the Norcal crew very well. He's a good guy. It's just his way of having fun with us.

Just to give you an idea of how much the Norcal crew respects his abilities, when they heard he was going to give one of our matches a try, some of them were seriously concerned he was going to show up with his Palma rifle and beat us at our own game.

Phil3
10-02-2009, 8:38 PM
Do you have a hunting rifle, a varmint rifle, a SBR? Most people start out with the "wrong" equipment. Then if they decide to pursue a given shooting game they begin the process of accumulating the "right" equipment. We've all been there. I have fired in two tactical matches recently with a single shot Palma rifle. Kinda difficult to get two shots off in 6 seconds, but it was just to see what that game was all about.

Yes, Palma, Fullbore, and XTC is all iron sights. Some of the prone stuff is with a scope, if desired. There are not a lot of any sight matches around though. October 11 at Sac is a 60 shot 600 yard match - prone - any caliber and any sights.

Regarding your ideal noted above, 600 yard benchrest is for you. You can shoot with a bipod, but you will be at a disadvantage. The 6BR is the ultimate 600 yard caliber, which is light recoiling, easy to load for, with widely available components and data. Just not many available matches with that exact format. In fact, there are not a lot of just 600 yard matches in any of the games.

F-class and prone have a lot of matches at Sac, Coalinga, and Reno. Depending upon the type of match, you may shoot from 300, 500, 600, 800, 900, or 1000 yards. Though probably not all on the same day. It just depends...

Lane

I have NO equipment and want to be sure I get the right stuff the first time, but need to nail down the discipline.

What class is shooting prone with any caliber, F-Class? What is the difference between F-Class and prone?

Given your comments for Sacramento, it seems if I want maximum shooting time, F-Class or F/TR is it. I also like the idea of shooting varied distances, and while it is prone, I can't have everything I guess. I like tactical rifles, for no real good reason, and suppose I can just buy a Savage 10FCp in 308 with the 15 McMillan stock, or try the Savage Long Range Precision Varminter in 223 with a 1:7" barrel for the heaviest bullets, which should work to 600 - 800 yards reasonably well. This would permit me to stay in F/TR.

I find the description of matches very difficult to understand on the Sacramento Valley website. I called them, and they told me for F-Class and F/TR, if the site says anything like prone, highpower, etc., it is probably inclusive of F.:( Not real informative or clear.

I plan on being at the October 11 match to observe and learn more.

- Phil

CSACANNONEER
10-02-2009, 8:48 PM
Phil3,

If you are interested in longrange benchrest shooting for score, we do that at FCSA matches. We also mark each shot during record groups. The only catch is that you'ld need a 50. Yea, they are not cheap but, they are not that expensive either. My match ammo is running less than $2.50/round and I've seen high end commercial .308 go for more than that. Anyway, if you are ever interested in shooting a FCSA match, you're welcome to use my rifle and equipment for a match or two.

BigBamBoo
10-02-2009, 9:52 PM
...........

Phil3
10-03-2009, 8:50 AM
Phil3....like cannoneer...if you want to try BR, F open class, or tactical...and can make it a bit further north. Let me know and you can shoot anyone of my rifles at a match. I mainly do BR now days but do a F class now and again.

I have used my Tikka T3 Lite in .223 for F-TR...no not the ideal setup for that but I have placed with it.

The best advice I can give is just attend some of the matches and express an interest. There are many good folks at the shoots and I am sure more then one would offer to let you shoot their rifles.

Take care,Stan

Stan, thank you for your offer. Are your matches north or south of Redding. Redding is already 210 miles away, which already means getting close to an overnight trip. What do you like best and least about BR vs F-Class? I like tactical rifles, but am not so interested in pressure events, or shooting from varied tactical positions (if I understand what happens here correctly). What are you shooting for BR and at what distance?

- Phil

Gnzrme
10-03-2009, 9:17 AM
Phil,

I just shot at the Tri County Rifle Range match..They hold LR matches every other month with the odd months being Palma and the even; NRA Long Range. I did the Palma match with a 20" bbl...Everybody was calling me "Stubby" and I came in last, but I placed and I had fun....Tri County seems very low key, non sactioned (not for record) matches and the club is run by a person named Michael Tuck who is a Cal Guns member...Range is in Cuyama which is just southwest of Taft and just outside of Maricopa...From the San Fernando Valley, its about 100 miles....there are not too many 1000 yard ranges in CA and once you become a member of the club, you can goto their range anytime and practice...otherwise range is open for public use the Saturday before the match to allow people to sight in and practice the day before.

You are up in San Ramon so that is a ways, but people do camp at the range, so if you are interested, send and email to myke155@yahoo.com and let him know that you heard about his club/range here and I referred you....

You can shoot anything you want except 50 cal on their range.....

Phil3
10-03-2009, 9:29 AM
Phil3,

If you are interested in longrange benchrest shooting for score, we do that at FCSA matches. We also mark each shot during record groups. The only catch is that you'ld need a 50. Yea, they are not cheap but, they are not that expensive either. My match ammo is running less than $2.50/round and I've seen high end commercial .308 go for more than that. Anyway, if you are ever interested in shooting a FCSA match, you're welcome to use my rifle and equipment for a match or two.

Don't know what FCSA is, but in my county of Contra Costa, I can not even buy a 50. I like to shoot many rounds for practice, so even if I could own such a thing, it would kill me in ammo costs. I would really enjoy shooting such a thing, but our county stupidvisors felt with the refineries around here, a big weapon like that was too much of a threat in the hands of a terrorist. That, after another member admitted the measure was largely "sympbolic"!

Forgive the rant.

- Phil

BigBamBoo
10-03-2009, 9:57 AM
............

CSACANNONEER
10-03-2009, 10:02 AM
Phil,

I just shot at the Tri County Rifle Range match..They hold LR matches every other month with the odd months being Palma and the even; NRA Long Range. I did the Palma match with a 20" bbl...Everybody was calling me "Stubby" and I came in last, but I placed and I had fun....Tri County seems very low key, non sactioned (not for record) matches and the club is run by a person named Michael Tuck who is a Cal Guns member...Range is in Cuyama which is just southwest of Taft and just outside of Maricopa...From the San Fernando Valley, its about 100 miles....there are not too many 1000 yard ranges in CA and once you become a member of the club, you can goto their range anytime and practice...otherwise range is open for public use the Saturday before the match to allow people to sight in and practice the day before.

You are up in San Ramon so that is a ways, but people do camp at the range, so if you are interested, send and email to myke155@yahoo.com and let him know that you heard about his club/range here and I referred you....

You can shoot anything you want except 50 cal on their range.....

I read you post and got excited when I heard about such a close 1000 yard range UNTIL, you said that they don't allow 50s there.:( Do you think there's anyway of showing them that 50s don't do any more damage than any other round? Are there 1000 yard pits there? Are there benches at any distance? Do you have any pictures of the range? Are there any amenities? Thanks.

BigBamBoo
10-03-2009, 10:11 AM
...........

CSACANNONEER
10-03-2009, 10:24 AM
Thanks Stan. It would be nice to be able to drive less than 200 miles to shoot at 1000! Right now, Coalinga (about 250 miles from me) is my closest option. Desert Marksman doesn't count since the rest of the range needs to be evacuated to shoot 1000.

Jicko
10-03-2009, 11:11 AM
Thanks Stan. It would be nice to be able to drive less than 200 miles to shoot at 1000! Right now, Coalinga (about 250 miles from me) is my closest option. Desert Marksman doesn't count since the rest of the range needs to be evacuated to shoot 1000.

Camp Pendleton is not 200miles from you....

Gnzrme
10-03-2009, 11:13 AM
Greg,

According to Michael Tuck, the President of the Tri County Rifle Range, if the person shooting the 50 misses the backdrop of the target (pretty hard to do in my mind) the bullet will cross right over hwy 166 so that is why they ban the 50...the range is 2-3 miles due south of hwy 166...As far as facilities, they have an outhouse (smells really bad...), a 1000, 900 and 800 yard shooting lines (berms built up, NO COVER, so plan for the sun). at the 800 yard line they have a bunch of benches, a large awning and a bunch of BBQ's and wood...there are several trash cans...As far as the pit, its very good...5 targets on swinging frames. 6'x6', 2 conex containers for the target supplies, the pit line has benches and it is now covered by a 2-3' awning of wood/tin so the sun is not too bad there...There is a Porta Potty with a bunch of small caliber bullet holes in it (people will shoot anything for fun, but its still destruction of property). That porta potty also smells...obviously they do not get emptied regularly...they do have a 100 yard line and frame holder for a target frame...there is one concrete bench (1 person position) to shoot off. The range itself is next to an alfalfa field on some privately owned property and its been in use for several years and the family that owns it should continue to use it as a range...Membership is 25.00 with a 50.00 initiation fee and you get 24/7 access to the range...However, I do not think that they will allow late night shooting since believe it or not, there is a mobile home that is situated down range beyond the 1000 yard line and to the left and they do not want to disturb this family so as not to cause attention to the range...

oh, they do have flag poles for official wind flags at 800, 1000 and somewhere between that distance....

thats about all I recall from my visit...also no water or electricity or phones but there is cell phone coverage...

CSACANNONEER
10-03-2009, 11:16 AM
Camp Pendleton is not 200miles from you....

Ok, I just don't drive that far south because it takes so long to drive throu LA traffic. Is Pendleton open to civilian shooting? Is it civilian 50 friendly?

CSACANNONEER
10-03-2009, 11:19 AM
Greg,

According to Michael Tuck, the President of the Tri County Rifle Range, if the person shooting the 50 misses the backdrop of the target (pretty hard to do in my mind) the bullet will cross right over hwy 166 so that is why they ban the 50...the range is 2-3 miles due south of hwy 166...As far as facilities, they have an outhouse (smells really bad...), a 1000, 900 and 800 yard shooting lines (berms built up, NO COVER, so plan for the sun). at the 800 yard line they have a bunch of benches, a large awning and a bunch of BBQ's and wood...there are several trash cans...As far as the pit, its very good...5 targets on swinging frames. 6'x6', 2 conex containers for the target supplies, the pit line has benches and it is now covered by a 2-3' awning of wood/tin so the sun is not too bad there...There is a Porta Potty with a bunch of small caliber bullet holes in it (people will shoot anything for fun, but its still destruction of property). That porta potty also smells...obviously they do not get emptied regularly...they do have a 100 yard line and frame holder for a target frame...there is one concrete bench (1 person position) to shoot off. The range itself is next to an alfalfa field on some privately owned property and its been in use for several years and the family that owns it should continue to use it as a range...Membership is 25.00 with a 50.00 initiation fee and you get 24/7 access to the range...However, I do not think that they will allow late night shooting since believe it or not, there is a mobile home that is situated down range beyond the 1000 yard line and to the left and they do not want to disturb this family so as not to cause attention to the range...

oh, they do have flag poles for official wind flags at 800, 1000 and somewhere between that distance....

thats about all I recall from my visit...also no water or electricity or phones but there is cell phone coverage...


Thanks, I've got an email out to him right now. I wonder why he thinks that a 50 projo will travel 3 miles but a .308 won't? Obviously, he is thinking with emotions rather than logic. The POA would have to be well over several degrees high for a bullet to travel that distance. But, his place, his rules.

Phil3
10-03-2009, 11:32 AM
Stan, thank you for invite. I would like to find a way to do this.

I recognize their IS substantial shooter skill in shooting BR (wind and mirage), but unless I am missing something, there are some things about it that I either I just don't understand or are not my cup of tea.

- Groups. Call me old fashioned, but it seems to me one shoots a gun to hit what they are aiming at, the X. Shooting and winning for shooting a tiny group, that may be nowhere near the X just seems odd to me.

- Feedback. Also seems odd to me to shoot and not get any feedback on where the shots are going. You can barely make out holes at 600 yards, but at 1000, you have no idea until the match is over.

- Theoretical Performance. The shooting strategy is to shoot sighter shots, know where they go in observed conditions (through target markers), and then during record shots, use that information to make adjustments to the gun for the conditions that are now present. If conditions remain unchanged there may little more to do than pull the trigger. Fact is, when I recently shot at 1000 yards with a BR heavy gun, that is what I was told to do, fire off all ten as fast as I could, and no need to hold onto the gun (sliding on bags). Of course, conditions rarely are static, hence the need to adjust and use wind and mirage skills, as well as sighter information, and that DOES take substantial skills as I found out.

But, it all rather reminded of the movie Shooter with the remote controlled rifle used in the assassination. I don't mean to demean BR, but I think it would much more fun to me, if I was hitting something "reactive", or gave me feedback on each shot. This is why I was looking at 600 yards, since with a good scope, you can just make out bullet holes.

Am I missing anything here? I am like you, as you said, "... I just like the "low pressure" of shooting from a static position and concentrating on wind reading,trigger control,etc..". It is ironic that this is most easiest accomplished just by going to the local range and practicing with a spotting scope to give me feedback. If only F/TR was on the bench...! I think Sacramento has a 550 meter silhouette range, so need to check that out.

- Phil

Gnzrme
10-03-2009, 11:55 AM
Phil,

I think you are missing something...Each and every shot including the 15 for record were pulled, marked and scored and put back up for the shooter to observe and use to plan for his next shot....Now if conditions died down and went to perfect, then hopefully the puller is fast and can pull, patch and score and put back up the target before the conditions dramatically change...not too hard if your shooter is nailing the target in the same spot and you do not have to look over 36 sq feet of target (6x6) for a bullet hole...

Phil3
10-03-2009, 12:25 PM
Phil,

I think you are missing something...Each and every shot including the 15 for record were pulled, marked and scored and put back up for the shooter to observe and use to plan for his next shot....Now if conditions died down and went to perfect, then hopefully the puller is fast and can pull, patch and score and put back up the target before the conditions dramatically change...not too hard if your shooter is nailing the target in the same spot and you do not have to look over 36 sq feet of target (6x6) for a bullet hole...

I was referring to the 1000 NBRSA match I went to. I shot sighters and these were marked with a pink disk, which was placed over the last shot. This was useful to understand where shots were going in the conditions, and also just to get the rifle sighted in. But, once we shot for record, I got 10 shots. These were not marked at all. I did this process two more times, for a total of three. Once all three were done, and the match was over, the targets came back, and this was the first time I saw how I had done. Prior to this, no feedback on any record shots. Other than the sighters, I shots 30 shots (3 x 10) on three targets (10 shots each), and knew nothing about where any went until the match was over.

- Phil

Gnzrme
10-03-2009, 12:35 PM
Humm,

That's not how we did it, but we were not shooting benchrest, but palma and F t/r...I was in the F t/r class with a scoped rifle....Ok, now you got me thinking since our's was non-sactioned, maybe we were doing it different...I have seen video's of matches and they pulled/scored between shots....

Rob, how do you do it up north?....:):) no pun intended....

CSACANNONEER
10-03-2009, 12:45 PM
I've never shot NBRSA but, I've got friends who have. IIRC, they have told me that they do not use spotters during record strings. I would have never been able to figure out how to shoot at 1000 without the use of spotters so, I'm glad we use them for FCSA matches, which are basically 1000 yard benchrest matches for .50s only.

BigBamBoo
10-03-2009, 1:32 PM
................

Ahhnother8
10-03-2009, 3:45 PM
I have NO equipment and want to be sure I get the right stuff the first time, but need to nail down the discipline.

What class is shooting prone with any caliber, F-Class? What is the difference between F-Class and prone?

Given your comments for Sacramento, it seems if I want maximum shooting time, F-Class or F/TR is it. I also like the idea of shooting varied distances, and while it is prone, I can't have everything I guess. I like tactical rifles, for no real good reason, and suppose I can just buy a Savage 10FCp in 308 with the 15 McMillan stock, or try the Savage Long Range Precision Varminter in 223 with a 1:7" barrel for the heaviest bullets, which should work to 600 - 800 yards reasonably well. This would permit me to stay in F/TR.

I find the description of matches very difficult to understand on the Sacramento Valley website. I called them, and they told me for F-Class and F/TR, if the site says anything like prone, highpower, etc., it is probably inclusive of F.:( Not real informative or clear.

I plan on being at the October 11 match to observe and learn more.

- Phil

F-class - equipment wise, it is benchrest laying on the ground basically. Except TR has caliber restriction and a bipod requirement. Every shot the target is pulled and marked. Strings of fire vary from 10-20 shots, depending upon the match.

Prone - on the ground, with a sling and shooting coat, no type of front or rear rest, typically with iron sights, but not always. Palma - .223 or .308 at 800, 900, 1000 yards, Fullbore - .223 or .308 at 300-1000 yards, Prone - typically at 600 or 1000 yards with any caliber and any sights (not too many of these matches).

A Savage would work fine in either caliber. If it is a repeater, it would work for tactical matches too. With that set-up, you could shoot at least 10 days a month on the 1000 yard range at Sac. Most would be practice days, but some would be matches.

Lane