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Swiss
10-01-2009, 1:25 PM
Is it legal to loan a firearm (handgun or long gun) to a neighbor for self-defense purposes for a short period of time?

Periodically there will be a rash of burglaries or home invasions in our area and non-gun owning neighbors get nervous. I've considered loaning out a firearm until the problems subside. Can I do this?

Thanks!

CSACANNONEER
10-01-2009, 1:33 PM
Yep, IIRC, it's up to 30? days for a handgun. The borrower must have a HSC and not ba a prohibited person. For long guns, I forget if there is a time limit or not.

you better have the ultimate trust in your neighbor though. If he/she ends up shooting me (even if I'm breaking in to his/her house), I will sue them for shooting me and you for providing them with the gun. It may end up costing you some cash to help your neighbors protect their lives.

Mister BLASTEE
10-01-2009, 1:35 PM
Wow I learn something new here everyday.

AndrewMendez
10-01-2009, 1:35 PM
Yep, IIRC, it's up to 30? days for a handgun. The borrower must have a HSC and not ba a prohibited person. For long guns, I forget if there is a time limit or not.

30 days is correct. However, if its an ongoing problem, I think your neighbor needs to get something for themselves. Or move!

Swiss
10-01-2009, 1:38 PM
Once they've experienced the reassurance the firearm provides in times of real need, I believe they'll get one for themselves pretty quickly. Just another way to introduce someone to firearms.

berto
10-01-2009, 1:40 PM
Perhaps it's time your neighbors invested in their own means of protection. Crime can happen anytime. Borrowing a gun during a high crime period only works if you're not among the first victims.

Good for you for helping them, a little prod in the right direction would be even better.

CSACANNONEER
10-01-2009, 1:43 PM
Once they've experienced the reassurance the firearm provides in times of real need, I believe they'll get one for themselves pretty quickly. Just another way to introduce someone to firearms.

I would not "introduce" someone to firearms by loaning them one. What good is having a car in the garage for an emergency trip to the hospital if you don't know how to drive it? Take your neighbors to the range and get him/her MORE than a few hours of hands on experience before loaning them a gun.

maschronic
10-01-2009, 2:00 PM
If he/she ends up shooting me (even if I'm breaking in to his/her house), I will sue them for shooting me and you for providing them with the gun. It may end up costing you some cash to help your neighbors protect their lives.

now we know your second job. :p

CSACANNONEER
10-01-2009, 2:06 PM
Yea, strict gun control would sure make my job a lot safer (for me).:p

Hey, ya wanna buy a watch? How'z 'bout a DVD player? Or, a PS2?

bwiese
10-01-2009, 2:06 PM
Is it legal to loan a firearm (handgun or long gun) to a neighbor for self-defense purposes for a short period of time?

Periodically there will be a rash of burglaries or home invasions in our area and non-gun owning neighbors get nervous. I've considered loaning out a firearm until the problems subside. Can I do this?

12078(d) PC includes the "infrequent loan" provision for lending of firearms between parties known to each other (and not otherwise prohibited persons).

The loan is for "lawful purposes" and must be "infrequent" (undefined) and for a max period of up to 30 days.

If a handgun, the borrower must hold a valid HSC card. [Certain parties may be exempt, unsure - but the usual Joe Blow neighbor won't.]

Now, if the neighbor screws up and has a bad shoot (and is too stupid to say "I shot him because I was in fear of my life as he advanced..." and instead says "it was an accident") then that is not a lawful purpose and could entangle you.

So for very very short term it's OK - but beyond that, he should be encouraged to buy a gun, train, and join the NRA.

wash
10-01-2009, 2:34 PM
I hope changing some of these rules is in the game plan.

I'm a handgun owner and I think I had an HSC once but I lost it and if it's valid for 5 years, it's probably expired any way. I had a BFSC too...

But evidently it's illegal to lend a handgun to me because I lack an HSC.

That's a lot of B.S.

RandyD
10-01-2009, 2:56 PM
Now, if the neighbor screws up and has a bad shoot (and is too stupid to say "I shot him because I was in fear of my life as he advanced..." and instead says "it was an accident") then that is not a lawful purpose and could entangle you.

I think you are right on point with the above comment. As I see it, this situation is analogous to someone loaning a car to a friend. If that friend causes an accident, an attorney will sue the owner based on the theory that the owner negligently loaned the vehicle. This is standard procedure in civil lawsuits involving vehicles. Just place the term "firearm" in place of "vehicle" and the theory is applicable.

mmartin
10-01-2009, 3:06 PM
12078(d) PC includes the "infrequent loan" provision for lending of firearms between parties known to each other (and not otherwise prohibited persons).

The loan is for "lawful purposes" and must be "infrequent" (undefined) and for a max period of up to 30 days.

infrequent is defined elsewhere for inter-familial transfer as not more than 5 times per year. don't know if the same definition would apply here, but if not specifically defined, it might be the same.

megan

loather
10-01-2009, 3:11 PM
I think you are right on point with the above comment. As I see it, this situation is analogous to someone loaning a car to a friend. If that friend causes an accident, an attorney will sue the owner based on the theory that the owner negligently loaned the vehicle. This is standard procedure in civil lawsuits involving vehicles. Just place the term "firearm" in place of "vehicle" and the theory is applicable.

It doesn't make it any less stupid and irresponsible a claim to make. It's an abundantly clear instance of post hoc, ergo propter hoc.

The kind of slime that would want to argue a case like that give all lawyers a bad name.

CSACANNONEER
10-01-2009, 3:12 PM
infrequent is defined elsewhere for inter-familial transfer as not more than 5 times per year. don't know if the same definition would apply here, but if not specifically defined, it might be the same.

megan

Wow, that's 5 out of 12 months. That's pretty frequent in my book.

mmartin
10-01-2009, 3:14 PM
I hope changing some of these rules is in the game plan.

I'm a handgun owner and I think I had an HSC once but I lost it and if it's valid for 5 years, it's probably expired any way. I had a BFSC too...

But evidently it's illegal to lend a handgun to me because I lack an HSC.

That's a lot of B.S.

PC also says I can loan one to you without the HSC as long as I don't let you out of my sight...
so you can use one of mine, as long as you don't mind my staring at you while you shoot.
megan
ETA: ok, well, it actually says something about remaining in immediate proximity ... I'll look up the code language... but don't think that will keep me from staring at you...

loather
10-01-2009, 3:42 PM
PC also says I can loan one to you without the HSC as long as I don't let you out of my sight...
so you can use one of mine, as long as you don't mind my staring at you while you shoot.
megan
ETA: ok, well, it actually says something about remaining in immediate proximity ... I'll look up the code language... but don't think that will keep me from staring at you...

It'd probably be a pretty welcome change from the sweaty guys staring at the "gun chick" at the range, wouldn't you say? :cool:

Uriah02
10-01-2009, 3:45 PM
For my own peace of mind I'd make sure they know how to shoot and are using proper ammo as well.

mmartin
10-01-2009, 3:57 PM
It'd probably be a pretty welcome change from the sweaty guys staring at the "gun chick" at the range, wouldn't you say? :cool:

ha! that usually stops when I outshoot them... :43:

ok, well I don't always outshoot them, but when I do, staring turns into being really busy elsewhere...:rolleyes:
megan

wash
10-01-2009, 4:03 PM
Quit looking at me.

This happens every time I go shooting.

dantodd
10-01-2009, 4:12 PM
Quit looking at me.


Happens to me too. But in their defense I think they're just mad because I accidentally put holes in THEIR targets.

GrizzlyGuy
10-01-2009, 4:15 PM
ETA: ok, well, it actually says something about remaining in immediate proximity ... I'll look up the code language... but don't think that will keep me from staring at you...

That's pretty darned close, here it is from 12078 (for cases where the person doesn't have a HSC): "The person loaning the firearm is at all times within the presence of the person being loaned the firearm."

http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12078.html

If you loan a large-capacity magazine, then they use the "accessible vicinity" phrase and HSC's are irrelevant (from 12020):

"The loan of the large-capacity magazine occurs at a place or
location where the possession of the large-capacity magazine is not
otherwise prohibited and the person who lends the large-capacity
magazine remains in the accessible vicinity of the person to whom the
large-capacity magazine is loaned."

http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12020.html

wash
10-01-2009, 4:23 PM
What about RAW owners who want to use the restroom?

That's a real example from a couple weeks ago at the Cow Palace gun show.

bwiese
10-01-2009, 4:32 PM
What about RAW owners who want to use the restroom?

That's a real example from a couple weeks ago at the Cow Palace gun show.

It becomes a VERY secure restroom :)

blacksheep
10-01-2009, 4:52 PM
Yep, IIRC, it's up to 30? days for a handgun. The borrower must have a HSC and not ba a prohibited person. For long guns, I forget if there is a time limit or not.

you better have the ultimate trust in your neighbor though. If he/she ends up shooting me (even if I'm breaking in to his/her house), I will sue them for shooting me and you for providing them with the gun. It may end up costing you some cash to help your neighbors protect their lives.

It would have to be your next of kin, you wont survive a break in at my house.;)

RandyD
10-01-2009, 5:20 PM
It doesn't make it any less stupid and irresponsible a claim to make. It's an abundantly clear instance of post hoc, ergo propter hoc.

The kind of slime that would want to argue a case like that give all lawyers a bad name.

I am not sure what your point was, but it appears you want to shoot the messenger. The purpose of my post was not to advocate the merits of that legal theory. The purpose of my post was simply to caution that there are some legal consequences of loaning a firearm to someone else.

glockman19
10-01-2009, 5:39 PM
Is this a state or national law?

What if I have guns at a friends house out of state?

What if they are there for a year or years?

I believe it is a State law that is unenforceable outside of California.

RandyD
10-01-2009, 6:33 PM
Is this a state or national law?

What if I have guns at a friends house out of state?

What if they are there for a year or years?

I believe it is a State law that is unenforceable outside of California.

The legal theory is based on the tort of negligence, it is not necessarily a statute. I am not aware of any state that does not allow a civil suit to be filed under a negligence cause of action. The tort of negligence could be applicable to many acts and omissions such as loaning a firearm to a person with bad judgment or someone who did not know how to use it safely.

CSACANNONEER
10-01-2009, 6:48 PM
It would have to be your next of kin, you wont survive a break in at my house.;)

Are you using a borrowed gun too?

ojisan
10-01-2009, 7:03 PM
I would say 12 days max for the loan time.
Day 1 = Loan him a gun, you both drive to gun shop and he buys his own.
Day 2-11 = The 10 Day Wait.
Day 12 = He goes and picks up his gun, you go and pick up yours.

(One more gun owner, one more voter who won't like anyone taking his gun away).
;)

Meplat
10-01-2009, 8:24 PM
30 days gives the neabor a chance to get something for themselvs and brings another convert into the fold.

30 days is correct. However, if its an ongoing problem, I think your neighbor needs to get something for themselves. Or move!

Meplat
10-01-2009, 8:30 PM
Maybe they have grown up with guns and only now realize they need to be armed. One size does not fit all.

I would not "introduce" someone to firearms by loaning them one. What good is having a car in the garage for an emergency trip to the hospital if you don't know how to drive it? Take your neighbors to the range and get him/her MORE than a few hours of hands on experience before loaning them a gun.

Meplat
10-01-2009, 8:48 PM
How likely is it that any of this will be scrutinized if I loan a gun to an old friend and something goes wrong. 0 to 5%?:43:

PC also says I can loan one to you without the HSC as long as I don't let you out of my sight...
so you can use one of mine, as long as you don't mind my staring at you while you shoot.
megan
ETA: ok, well, it actually says something about remaining in immediate proximity ... I'll look up the code language... but don't think that will keep me from staring at you...

KylaGWolf
10-01-2009, 8:48 PM
ha! that usually stops when I outshoot them... :43:

ok, well I don't always outshoot them, but when I do, staring turns into being really busy elsewhere...:rolleyes:
megan

lol now see even as a female I don't get stared at unless they are looking at how tall I am. I am a troll...lol but seriously I want to get to the point where I can outshoot my other half. I know that is going to take a whole lot of practice though. Which is fine by me :43: I am hoping to get a trip to the range in this weekend before my trip to my dads. I got to burn off some of the stress of what that trip is going to bring before the fact. I have a feeling I will make another trip to the range when I get back too. Heck if all goes well I may buy another gun when I get back. Then again I need to have H&K look at my gun to see if the problems I have had is due to a problem or not and if they can switch the side of the safety on it.