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View Full Version : Legal to shoot **Tannerite** on BLM Land?


WeekendWarrior
09-30-2009, 10:31 AM
WWRTW

SJgunguy24
09-30-2009, 10:59 AM
I've shot the stuff before with 2 BLM rangers(LEO) standing right there. They doubled over laughing their a**'s off.

Some say it's a gray area do to constructive possession of an explosive.
I say it's GTG , but the guy who warned me about it is one of the wise men around here.

WeekendWarrior
09-30-2009, 11:05 AM
WWRTW

SJgunguy24
09-30-2009, 11:33 AM
When they came driving up, I had a Saiga conversion (featureless) with a 30 locked in, a G17 on my hip with my standard mags +5(23 rounds) mixing up 2 1lb containers of Mr.T.:D

I had 20lbs and the ranger asked me what I was doing, "Being an American sir, exercising my freedoms"

domokun
09-30-2009, 12:03 PM
I've never shot the stuff before, but I am planning a trip out to some BLM land and was thinking about ordering some 1lb targets for the trip. Will this get us in trouble? Anyone know the legalities of shooting tannerite on BLM land? I want to stay on the right side of the law, but I also really want to shoot some tannerite.

If its not legal on BLM land, one of my buddies has a large ranch down south. Is it legal to shoot tannerite on private property if you are adhering to firearms laws when doing so?

We will be shooting OLLs, so we want to make sure we are staying within the law, don't want any trouble.

Thanks!

See all the Panoche PiŮata Shoot Threads.... :D Does that answer your questions? We haven't had any trouble with the rangers at all out there.

Acorn556
09-30-2009, 12:36 PM
See all the Panoche PiŮata Shoot Threads.... :D Does that answer your questions? We haven't had any trouble with the rangers at all out there.

this.

B Strong
09-30-2009, 1:16 PM
I've shot the stuff before with 2 BLM rangers(LEO) standing right there. They doubled over laughing their a**'s off.

Some say it's a gray area do to constructive possession of an explosive.
I say it's GTG , but the guy who warned me about it is one of the wise men around here.

I know who that fella is, and I agree with him, at least here in Ca.

We shot Tannerite on private prooperty w/ some LEO's involved in the fun, and drama occured when distant neighbors called the County SO - they came out with fire in the eye till the badges came out. It could have had been much a different situation had it only had been us dirty unwashed civilians.

WeekendWarrior
09-30-2009, 1:22 PM
WWRTW

xrMike
09-30-2009, 2:33 PM
I had 20lbs and the ranger asked me what I was doing, "Being an American sir, exercising my freedoms":D Great reply.

WeekendWarrior
10-14-2009, 3:46 PM
WWRTW

xrMike
10-14-2009, 3:56 PM
I read somewhere that if you wrap your tannerite container very tightly in a couple layers of duct tape, including the top and bottom of the container, the effect is enhanced.

coder44mag
10-14-2009, 4:07 PM
i also "read" somewhere that mixing 3lbs of tannerite in a 2 liter soda bottle produces a much louder explosion, but it may be illegal

Harley Quinn
10-14-2009, 6:43 PM
This kind of action could get you in trouble.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiEUMTT5TxY

:D

Toolfreak66
10-14-2009, 6:48 PM
I've shot it off in BLM land before and never had any troubles, but I've also never seen a ranger or other LEO there.

Toolfreak66
10-14-2009, 6:51 PM
This kind of action could get you in trouble.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiEUMTT5TxY

:D

Littering and...littering and....littering and smoking the refer!

maschronic
10-14-2009, 6:51 PM
i have never asked the rangers in barstow about tannerite, but i would have to guess that they would not like it. i do remember a ranger making a comment about shooting at propane tanks. they wanted to make sure that it was empty.

whenever i run into a ranger, they usually ask us how long we will be at the location, don't shoot glass, pick up all the trash, don't shoot each other, and come again.

but, you never know. the only way to find out is to call the ranger office and ask. just make sure you get their info.

ColoradoShooter
10-31-2009, 11:19 PM
I just got a $525 ticket for shooting tannerite in national forrest in colorado.

caoboy
11-01-2009, 4:58 PM
This kind of action could get you in trouble.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiEUMTT5TxY

:D

Is it wrong to laugh? LOL

Now..just a little bit more!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qz2X7LNsv7E&feature=related

bwiese
11-01-2009, 5:32 PM
I have severe concerns that even possession of Tannerite components could be considered "constructive possession" under 12300? 12301?PC.

This state even bans C02 bombs. If there's a fireworks exemption, I'd like to see it.

I do not wanna be near Tannerite in CA. It'd be an easy charge to bring.

Tanner(ite) says it's approved but I do not see any letters, and I don't even know if he's used a California-cognizant attorney. When I questioned one of their distributors close to them at Reno gunshow, they got all huffy and said I was a crazy Californian.

SJgunguy24
11-01-2009, 6:00 PM
I have severe concerns that even possession of Tannerite components could be considered "constructive possession" under 12300? 12301?PC.

This state even bans C02 bombs. If there's a fireworks exemption, I'd like to see it.

I do not wanna be near Tannerite in CA. It'd be an easy charge to bring.

Tanner(ite) says it's approved but I do not see any letters, and I don't even know if he's used a California-cognizant attorney. When I questioned one of their distributors close to them at Reno gunshow, they got all huffy and said I was a crazy Californian.

Bill, you know I hold your opinion in the highest regard. This stuff is OK if used and mixed in the perscribed manner.
If constructive possesion was true in California (for Tannerite as an explosive), than any body with a small amout of Gasoline in a gas can and a lighter can be popped for constructive possesion. A safe and sane firework can be turned into an explosive with some tape, is that constructive possesion?
I can go to the grocery store and buy some cleaning supplies and I can make explosives or poison gas, would that be constructive possession?

I'm not being disrespectful in any way Bill, but this stuff is legit. IMO

This is just my opinion, bwiese is the most knowledgable person I know on this board. If he says it I consider it to be the final word. I diagree with him on this...and this is the only time I have or will go against his advise.

coder44mag
11-01-2009, 7:17 PM
Bill, you know I hold your opinion in the highest regard. This stuff is OK if used and mixed in the perscribed manner.
If constructive possesion was true in California (for Tannerite as an explosive), than any body with a small amout of Gasoline in a gas can and a lighter can be popped for constructive possesion. A safe and sane firework can be turned into an explosive with some tape, is that constructive possesion?
I can go to the grocery store and buy some cleaning supplies and I can make explosives or poison gas, would that be constructive possession?


I don't follow law very closely, but I would personally classify tannerite as an explosive, possibly illegal, because of it's manufactured intent. Your examples, such as gas and legal fireworks, implies using them in a manner outside of the original intent, thus making them illegal.

I would like to know the precise argument if I'm every confronted, by a LEO, with my tannerite.

SJgunguy24
11-01-2009, 7:21 PM
I don't follow law very closely, but I would personally classify tannerite as an explosive, possibly illegal, because of it's manufactured intent. Your examples, such as gas, implies using it in a manner outside of the original intent, thus making it illegal.

I would like to know the precise argument if I'm every confronted, by a LEO, with my tannerite.

It is an explosive when mixed. Even when mixed the stuff needs such a shock to set it off, I feel the only thing that might get it
to go is a blasting cap or primer cord. IIRC even AN-FO explosives need a serious shock to get maximum blast effect.
Constructive possesion is what i'm talking about. Just having the stuff Bill feels is questionable.

bwiese
11-01-2009, 7:59 PM
I have since become aware of a person who has been popped for Tannerite - components, I believe, not mixed.

He lost his gun rights for 3 years on a plea down to misdemeanor.

The writing in 12301PC is very murkly, worse even than that of constructive possession for MGs/SBRs/SBSes.

Until Tannerite comes up with a letter from DOJ and/or a local DA I'd not touch the stuff.

Anyone saying otherwise has not read the law, nor thought how far it can extend.

SJgunguy24
11-01-2009, 8:05 PM
I have since become aware of a person who has been popped for Tannerite - components, I believe, not mixed.

He lost his gun rights for 3 years on a plea down to misdemeanor.

The writing in 12301PC is very murkly, worse even than that of constructive possession for MGs/SBRs/SBSes.

Until Tannerite comes up with a letter from DOJ and/or a local DA I'd not touch the stuff.

Anyone saying otherwise has not read the law, nor thought how far it can extend.

Where was this case? I'd like to read up on it. The disposable cold packs have the same nitrate that Tannerite has. Close to the same concentration also.

OK I just went through 12301PC and 12000 of the health and safety code. The way it reads, you better not ever have a can of smokeless powder or black powder or anything what so ever that can be mixed into any explosive agent.
I can get powdered milk to go if I want to. To many hours in detention with a library of books to read and plenty of time on my hands to experiment.

daves100
11-01-2009, 8:17 PM
Thanks for the info , was about to pick some up at a very good price. will pass after doing some research.

QUOTE=bwiese;3301289]I have since become aware of a person who has been popped for Tannerite - components, I believe, not mixed.

He lost his gun rights for 3 years on a plea down to misdemeanor.

The writing in 12301PC is very murkly, worse even than that of constructive possession for MGs/SBRs/SBSes.

Until Tannerite comes up with a letter from DOJ and/or a local DA I'd not touch the stuff.

Anyone saying otherwise has not read the law, nor thought how far it can extend.[/QUOTE]

diginit
11-01-2009, 9:41 PM
Tannerite is legal in all 50 states. A reactive rifle target. If you mix another substance with it is considered making a bomb in Ca.
It will take new legislation to outlaw it. So keep it legal and use common sense. I'm sure we have more than our lawmakers, Right?

diginit
11-01-2009, 9:51 PM
I can go to the grocery store and buy some cleaning supplies and I can make explosives or poison gas, would that be constructive possession?

Sorry Mike, But this would. But only if you had criminal intent. Tannerite, however, is not an explosive until mixed and shot by a high powered rifle. It must only be mixed at the range. By law. The detonation source is the key to being legal or illegal. And, of course, weather or not the user had criminal intent. It is not considered a firework because it is not launched into the air and is a chemical reaction resulting in a cold explosion. Very little heat is produced and the outcome is CO2, No hazardous gases are produced.
There are many amature pyrotechnic shoots in Ca. The largest of which is in Lake Havasu. Annually. I have been invited to participate. No license required. This is the only time I have found Bill to be mistaken, I hope he is anyways...Daniel Tanners' lawers have investigated this into the ground. And then built a stairway to get out.

Seesm
11-01-2009, 10:00 PM
So it IS illegal or legal... Bill is pretty sharp...

SJgunguy24
11-01-2009, 10:05 PM
Sorry Mike, But this would. If you had criminal intent. Tannerite, however, is not an explosive until mixed and shot by a high powered rifle. It must only be mixed at the range. By law. The detonation source is the key to being legal or illegal. And, of course, weather or not the user had criminal intent.

I know James. That was my example of constructive possession. It's amazing what somebody can do with common items.
Don't even let me tell you what I can do and a pool supply store. Phosgene anybody?
You can find good stuff just about anywhere and make a good case for constructive possession. Even if the suspect has zero chemistry knowledge at all. All the lawyer has to do is sell his case, thats the sad part.
Like I said ....kicked out of chemistry twice. I only use my knowledge for the power of good.

diginit
11-01-2009, 10:11 PM
It is legal until listed by name as a destructive device that must be licensed to possess or used in a manner that is to contrary to written law.

SJgunguy24
11-01-2009, 10:14 PM
So it IS illegal or legal... Bill is pretty sharp...

12301 is very vauge. You have to read health and safety code 12000 to get into it. That law basiclly says any chemical mixture or compound that has a fast or instant release of gases (explosive release) is illegal. It says black powder, smokeless powder, anything deemed flammable by a fire marshal is a destructive device.
So if you reload, your busted, if you have baby formula, your busted. Dust explosions are some of the most deadly.
There is a provision for producing ammo, but all a report has to say is you intended to use for purposes other that perscribed.
We are using tannerite for a reactive target. You set up at 400 yards what better reaction that to have your target blow up and make smoke?

It all comes down to intention and the DA. IMO
If a cop wants to be a dick your going down, they'll find a reason.

diginit
11-01-2009, 10:43 PM
It must be used at time of mixing to comply with CFR.
Must be used by persons over 21 with a clean criminal record. If anyone was arrested for Tannerite, They must have had a huge amount with criminal intent, were under 21, had a record, or had it already mixed.

bwiese
11-02-2009, 10:06 AM
Lotsa bad stuff above. You guys are inventing magic law to support your theses.

Tannerite COMPONENTS, even when separated and possessed at separate locations, likely are illegal unless somehow specifically exempted. Nobody has ever been able to cite any clear exemption to me.

I challenge Mr Tanner(ite) to show where he has a reading from a CA lawyer or CA DA that would say his product is legal. One person PMd me a year or so ago with all sortsa threats about how wrong I was and that he was ready to "show everyone" and then I heard nothing.

Tannerite is a binary explosive, and not gunpowder for reloading. I see no exemption for "not quite as strong regular explosives". The fact that lighter-weight C02 "coke bottle" explosives are banned helps show they don't want much in the way of explosives outside specifically exempted safe & sane fireworks and gunpowder/primer for reloading ammo.


Please read 12301PC and 12000H&S.

Then read 12312PC which codifies constructive possession of separated components (Tannerite's A and B parts)

12307PC does allow a 'civil compromise' a la AB2728 for AWs.

I now know of one person busted for this - took a lot of lawyering and 3yrs to get his gun rights back.

WeekendWarrior
11-02-2009, 10:18 AM
WWRTW

bwiese
11-02-2009, 10:20 AM
I'll just add "intent" doesn't matter - may be mitigation in defense.

"I didn't mean to have constructive possession of an SBR..." is not a valid defense either ;)

BroncoBob
11-02-2009, 11:42 AM
Oh please don't let the folks at TSG see this, as they'll not ship anymore of those exploding star targets to CA. Those people are hard enough to deal with.


A teeth - rattling good time! Make 'em go BOOM with these Exploding Star Shooting Targets.
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk75/223Bob/158178_ts.jpg

bwiese
11-02-2009, 11:57 AM
Oh please don't let the folks at TSG see this, as they'll not ship anymore of those exploding star targets to CA. Those people are hard enough to deal with.


I see no reason for anyone to bring in raw Tannerite into CA given the consequences.

Small exploding-star targets *may* have a defense.

But the people bringing in jugs of "A" and "B" are gonna end up swinging in the wind.

GrizzlyGuy
11-02-2009, 12:04 PM
I've never shot the stuff before, but I am planning a trip out to some BLM land and was thinking about ordering some 1lb targets for the trip. Will this get us in trouble? Anyone know the legalities of shooting tannerite on BLM land? I want to stay on the right side of the law, but I also really want to shoot some tannerite.

It's probably not a good idea to do this on public lands:

"Mark Brian Taylor, 41, of Lompoc, and Paul Joseph Taylor, 40, of Tempe, Arizona, were charged yesterday with negligently placing a device that might cause a fire. They are accused of going to a shooting area in the Los Padres National Forest on October 23, 2003 and shooting at a Tannerite Binary Explosive Ė on the same day the Forest Service issued a press release urging the public to be extremely cautious because of extreme fire danger. The brothersí activities led to the Happy Fire, a 75-acre blaze fire approximately five miles east of Santa Ynez."

http://www.justice.gov/usao/cac/pressroom/pr2007/101.html

gunn
11-02-2009, 12:34 PM
Bill:
Tannerite typically comes in the same package (.5-1LB) bottles with a small packet as the "Exploding Target" stuff sold on The Sportsmans Guide. You do have to mix it but the you could claim the "intent" was to have a reactive target since each and every bottle has a big target on it. If you think that "exploding star" targets "may have a defense", the commerically available Tannerite is NO DIFFERENT.

Now, if you feel that people who buy "jugs of it" may go "swinging in the wind" (aka A-N fertilizer in 50LB bags + 5LB powdered aluminum from eBay), IMO you may have a point here. If I picked up a bag of fertilizer and had it next to my 5LB jug of powdered aluminum, I'm not sure how I would claim that I'm making exploding targets vs. something more nefarious.

Now, granted this guy was stupid and made fireworks FOR RESALE AT WORK, the components he used are quite similar to Tannerite. How do you prove you are different from this clown when the overzealous DA starts saying to the average juror you are the next Timothy McVeigh?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/1999/01/01/national/main26696.shtml
http://www.nytimes.com/1999/01/02/us/bomb-components-cache-is-linked-to-profit.html

bwiese
11-02-2009, 3:07 PM
Bill:
Tannerite typically comes in the same package (.5-1LB) bottles with a small packet as the "Exploding Target" stuff sold on The Sportsmans Guide. You do have to mix it but the you could claim the "intent" was to have a reactive target since each and every bottle has a big target on it. If you think that "exploding star" targets "may have a defense", the commerically available Tannerite is NO DIFFERENT.


I think a 1lb jug of explosive material (or binary separation thereof, as shipped) may well be regarded as different than a small little star, regardless of the fact a star is painted on the jug. Many illegal explosives will go boom on impact - try shooting an old crate of decaying TNT sometime.

I would not be caught dead with Tannerite in CA. The law is way too biased against its use and way to biased toward ease of prosecution.

We already have one good guy that lost his gunrights for 3years w/Tannerite - and that was after substantial legal work to bring it down from felony.

I notice that nobody here has gone and read the friggin' law, they just talk circles.

Your arse, your $$$, your rights -- you've been warned. Don't expect CGF to rescue it - or at least my vote on whether that would be a case to take & support.

diginit
11-02-2009, 5:53 PM
But little star is the same thing. 95% AN and 5% AL. Comes in 1/2 lb and 1lb jars which contain a small baggie of catalist. Being that the ONLY ignition source is a high powered rifle, It is limited to adults using it. As far as BLM goes, The rangers know this is legal. We have demonstrated it for them and they loved it. Once again, It is a cold explosion, No fire danger unless mixed with another substance. Then it is illegal and considered making a bomb. I will bring this thread to Daniel's attention. hopefully, He can clarify things.

CHS
11-02-2009, 7:43 PM
But little star is the same thing. 95% AN and 5% AL. Comes in 1/2 lb and 1lb jars which contain a small baggie of catalist. Being that the ONLY ignition source is a high powered rifle, It is limited to adults using it. As far as BLM goes, The rangers know this is legal. We have demonstrated it for them and they loved it. Once again, It is a cold explosion, No fire danger unless mixed with another substance. Then it is illegal and considered making a bomb. I will bring this thread to Daniel's attention. hopefully, He can clarify things.

Yes, please do.

Because you all seem so convinced that this is legal, without listening to Bill's advice and actually READING the PC.

So please quote in the PC where this is legal, not mentioned, or exempted.

diginit
11-02-2009, 8:53 PM
It stands to reason, That if it wasn't legal. It wouldn't be sold or shipped here. You know how every other state feels about CA sales. I just don't know the PC excemption involved myself. I do know it is legal is All 50 states. Unless Ca. has succeded from the U.S. I just sent an email to a friend who is on a hunting trip with Daniel Tanner himself. We will hopefully hear from one or both of them soon. I'm sure his lawers covered this state also. There has got to be a code somewhere that Bill has simply overlooked.

SJgunguy24
11-03-2009, 2:32 AM
Yes, please do.

Because you all seem so convinced that this is legal, without listening to Bill's advice and actually READING the PC.

So please quote in the PC where this is legal, not mentioned, or exempted.

I have read the PC and the H&S code. It says you need a permit to use anything that maybe deemed an explosive.
It states black powder, smokeless powder, anything the fire marshall deems to be an explosive. Anything that has an instant or very fast release of gasses.
The law is ambiguous and I see Bill's concern. The way it is written, anybody with anything what so ever that may have any sort of explosive reaction can be busted.

Thats why I stated earlier what about the innocent volcano in 4th grade science class. If you contain that mixture, your a felon. If you have a cap gun, or strike anywhere matches in any amount deemed more that necessary, your a felon.
It seems this law has too much leeway, too many ways to get screwed. It's funny though, there is a provision for reloading. But what if your stocking up on supplies and your looking for a good deal on a press? Your a felon, at least the way this law is written.

Yes Bill i've read the law, and I can totally see where your worried about the well being of us and our freedom.
This is a bad law. It should state the actual chemicals and ratios in which a high velocity explosive can be mixed from. What do I know, i'm just a construction worker.

This law sucks if your a farmer, huge amounts of fertilizer, and diesel tractors.......Felon.
If I didn't like to stick it to the man......i'd move.

Where's Geronimo

xrMike
11-03-2009, 8:22 AM
But little star is the same thing. 95% AN and 5% AL. Comes in 1/2 lb and 1lb jars which contain a small baggie of catalist.Is that all Tannerite is? AN +Al? That is soooo easy to make yourself...

Those percentages are by weight, right? (I'm sure they are, just want to verify). Does Tannerite also require a small amount of catalyst? (Even if it doesn't, do you know what that catalyst is exactly?)

THanks.

SJgunguy24
11-03-2009, 8:28 AM
Is that all Tannerite is? AN +Al? That is soooo easy to make yourself...

Those percentages are by weight, right? (I'm sure they are, just want to verify). Does Tannerite also require a small amount of catalyst? (Even if it doesn't, do you know what that catalyst is exactly?)

THanks.

Yes, it is.

Ti, zirconium hydroxide, aluminum powder is the catylist.

There is one more thing in there but i'll let you do the reaserch


<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/B0g7taPV8oI&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/B0g7taPV8oI&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object> This will give you a hint.

CHS
11-03-2009, 8:44 AM
Is that all Tannerite is? AN +Al? That is soooo easy to make yourself...


There's more in it than that:

http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=b1eHAAAAEBAJ

WeekendWarrior
11-03-2009, 9:18 AM
WWRTW

SJgunguy24
11-03-2009, 9:21 AM
The rangers out of the Hollister BLM office have no problem with it, I talked to them on the phone about it and they know we are using it at the upcoming Zombie shoot.

We shot some with two ranger standing right there.....well OK they were doubled over laughing but they were present.

xrMike
11-03-2009, 12:53 PM
Yes, it is.

There's more in it than that:

http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=b1eHAAAAEBAJ

Thanks guys! That patent spells it all out.

Most if not all of those ingredients are easily available from online pytrotechnic suppliers.

WeekendWarrior
11-03-2009, 1:05 PM
WWRTW

Gossettc68
11-04-2009, 1:55 AM
Lotsa bad stuff above. You guys are inventing magic law to support your theses.

Tannerite COMPONENTS, even when separated and possessed at separate locations, likely are illegal unless somehow specifically exempted. Nobody has ever been able to cite any clear exemption to me.

I challenge Mr Tanner(ite) to show where he has a reading from a CA lawyer or CA DA that would say his product is legal. One person PMd me a year or so ago with all sortsa threats about how wrong I was and that he was ready to "show everyone" and then I heard nothing.

Tannerite is a binary explosive, and not gunpowder for reloading. I see no exemption for "not quite as strong regular explosives". The fact that lighter-weight C02 "coke bottle" explosives are banned helps show they don't want much in the way of explosives outside specifically exempted safe & sane fireworks and gunpowder/primer for reloading ammo.


Please read 12301PC and 12000H&S.

Then read 12312PC which codifies constructive possession of separated components (Tannerite's A and B parts)

12307PC does allow a 'civil compromise' a la AB2728 for AWs.

I now know of one person busted for this - took a lot of lawyering and 3yrs to get his gun rights back.

Okay, so I went over the penal codes listed above 12301PC and 12000H&S. nowhere did I find anything relative to tannerite at all.

First of all Tannerite is neither a destructive device nor an " Explosive " under the scope of the penal code. They make it very apparent that a destructive device is a device used to throw harmful particles or cause injury to person/property.

Tannerite is sold as a shot indicator. Not as a destructive device. The purpose is to create an audible/visual confirmation that you've hit your target. Tannerite is sanctioned by the ATF, DOT and CPSC has approved it as a consumer commodity.

You know of a guy who got busted? I've know of a lot of people who have been " Busted " all over the United States. The problem then lies with hotheaded stubborn police officers//prosecutors. I know we all have heard stories or witnessed what can happen when a prosecutor has a hard on to nail someone. I do feel sorry for the guy, I really do. He should have hired better legal representation.

Anways...

(2) Any bomb, grenade, explosive missile, or similar device or any
Launching device therefore.

I can see how such may look like a " gray area " however Tannerite is not a bomb...grenade nor a explosive missile. It is a shot indicator. It is not designed to be any of the above nor is its intended used in the aforementioned manner.

The penal code does get rather specific with the Co2 bombs. However you can mix Tannerite all day and shake it up...nothing will happen. You must shoot it for it to detonate.

I spose I can't drop mentos in my coke for fear of getting arrested for creating a chemical reaction/explosion??

I tried to look for a CA exemption for standard issue airbags. It takes a federal explosive manufacturing license to make them ( they are a exploding device after all ) and I couldnít find anything telling me that it's legal to own one!

I guess what I am getting at is the law isnít telling you what you can do; it tells you what you cannot do. Example: The law says it's bad and punishable to pee in public...however nowhere does it state " You are allowed to pee in your own home " thatís not how laws are written or supposed to be viewed.

Tannerite is noisy, loud and does its job...marks the spot. Tannerite is shipped and shot in California daily.

One thing I did notice was the penal code was pretty vague until you hit the tiny section for Co2 bombs...They devoted a little chapter for those buggers. Until I see one of those for reactive targets I will still believe they are legal to own/shoot in the state of CA. Just make sure youíre sticking to intended use. A shot indicator.

Thanks,
Charles

WeekendWarrior
11-04-2009, 9:18 AM
WWRTW

xrMike
11-04-2009, 12:13 PM
Gossettc68, nice first post. Welcome to calguns.

WeekendWarrior
11-04-2009, 1:01 PM
WWRTW

diginit
11-04-2009, 5:24 PM
Thanks....Charles. Take my word, This man knows what he is talking about.

Gossettc68
11-04-2009, 11:37 PM
Thanks for the warm welcome guys. Yes I have been a lurker for quite some time now. The discussion about Tannerite caught my eye =P

SJgunguy24
11-04-2009, 11:41 PM
Thanks for the warm welcome guys. Yes I have been a lurker for quite some time now. The discussion about Tannerite caught my eye =P

I bet it did;)

Hey did you read any of my earlier posts? I used the same example. I read the laws and for what I can come up with. The manager of any Wal mart or grocery store is constructive possesion of "explosive materials".

Gossettc68
11-05-2009, 9:06 PM
I bet it did;)

Hey did you read any of my earlier posts? I used the same example. I read the laws and for what I can come up with. The manager of any Wal mart or grocery store is constructive possesion of "explosive materials".

But thats just it, it's the literal thinking that can/will cause problems. I almost didnt want to make a post based of the fact that this could be argued with any number of things besides Tannerite.

If I take my maritime distress flare and point it at someone or something and shoot I've just turned a distress signal into a destructive device. See below

(1) Any projectile containing any explosive or incendiary material or any other chemical substance, including, but not limited to, that which is commonly known as tracer or incendiary ammunition, except tracer ammunition manufactured for use in shotguns.

(2) Any bomb, grenade, explosive missile, or similar device or any launching device therefor.

Does that mean that maritime distress rockets are illegal? No.

It's like I said before, if you are gonna use it, use it as a shot indicator only. CA is not the only state...actually there are many MANY states that have statutes//codes that are similar in definition. Your state laws are rather lapsed in comparison in this case. In fact...Just referencing the penal codes to Tannerite is damaging in itself.

I'll have to retract a statement I made in my first post regarding the CPSC. The CPSC does not " Approve " items. They can only " Disprove " items. I know, it doesnt make any sense I asked a agent at one point " Well if you don't disprove a product, doesnt it mean it's approved? " the only response I could get out of them was " Sorry, we don't approve anything ". I know, doesnt make any sense.

I only bring that up because good luck getting a DA to write a statement saying " Oh ya! Tannerite is legal! " I don't think that would happen regardless of how the laws are written.

Lets take another look at the Co2 bombs. Based on the current argument with tannerite, there should be no need to have a selection devoted to Co2 bombs...Because..well it's a bomb and they cover bombs in section 2 of the first chapter. Yet the Co2 bombs now have their section just like items listed in section 2.

Now here is the thing, if you are using Tannerite in a manner other than it's manufactured intended use ( Just like mis-using a maritime distress flare, or shooting propane tank ) it can and will be considered a destructive device. At least this is my opinion from a legal standpoint.

Charles

bwiese
11-06-2009, 12:50 AM
It stands to reason, That if it wasn't legal. It wouldn't be sold or shipped here.

Same logic: wow, I'm gonna get some coke now that it's legal in CA.

I am pursuing details on this. The man in Oregon does not appear to have California legal representation, and I've seen many cases where LARGE GUN COMPANIES with GOOD non-California counsel get into problems in CA.

I just helped deal with a big commercial screwup on listed receivers - non-CA FFL was sure that they were legal and off-list, and a CA FFL relied on it. Fortunately none were built as rifle and all were returned.

Until then you should not rely on someone else's - esp an out-of-stater's - (lack of) understanding of CA law.

Famous last words: "It stands to reason" = "But I assumed..."

There is certainly enough law to prosecute someone easily, and with a bad judge and the looseness in the law end up with multiple felonies. Remember we're in a post-9/11 world now.


I do know it is legal is All 50 states.

No you don't. How many friggin' times to I have to tell you this? Your head must be very thick.

California is most likely a NO. I'd bet there's a few other states like this too - esp NY etc. And this doesn't count local ordnances either (city/county).

Furthermore, from my reading, it looks like separated Tannerite components (constructive possession does apply!) may be *more* illegal - even if mixed A+B Tannerite itself were actually legal!

No sh*t.


... I'm sure his lawers covered this state also. There has got to be a code somewhere that Bill has simply overlooked.

Oregon lawyers knowing CA law details?

One of the things I may speak about to vendors at SHOT Show is that they are best using CA counsel, outside-CA counsel is either hyper overconservative (Cheaper-Than-Dirt, Sportsman's Guide banning sales of perfectly legal parts) or they make mistakes (S&W/Walther P22 etc.)

bwiese
11-06-2009, 12:52 AM
The rangers out of the Hollister BLM office have no problem with it, I talked to them on the phone about it and they know we are using it at the upcoming Zombie shoot.

WTF does that have to do with legal relevance?

BLM are Fed guys. They only dimly know CA law, and are often wrong (look at some of the OLL drama w/BLM rangers in the past).

Hell, those guys may have been rotated in from another state where Tannerite is legal.

Gawd, I feel like I'm banging my head on the wall. I thought Calgunners were smarter than this.

bwiese
11-06-2009, 12:57 AM
But thats just it, it's the literal thinking that can/will cause problems.

No it's loose reading.

I KNOW OF AT LEAST ONE PERSON HAS ALREADY BEEN BUSTED FOR THIS AND GOT OUT BY THE SKIN OF HIS TEETH WITH A MISDEMEANOR REDUCTION AND 3-yr FIREARMS PROHIBITION. BIG LAWYER FEES WERE INVOLVED.

Do *NOT* Expect CGF to save your *** from felony charges.

I'm almost hoping, unfortunately, for someone else to get busted to be an example so the people that require hammers to the head to learn will finally get it.

At this point enough stupidity is going on I think we'll run it by CGF lawyers for their reading.

I'll be talking to Tanner soon. He may indeed perhaps have some kinda letter that gives him a minor bit of cover - kinda like the Iggy letter that protected Evan's Gunsmithing screw up with listed receivers.

THE LAWS ARE SO LOOSELY CONSTRUCTED ANYTHING THAT GOES BOOM AND WHICH YOU DON'T WANNA BE NEAR COULD READILY BE ARGUED BY A MARGINALLY COMPETENT DA, WITH A PASSIVE JUDGE IN A BUSY COURT, TO BE DD.

goldleviathan
11-06-2009, 1:17 AM
Tannerite. That sounds like a good way to give gun enthusiasts a bad name. Just wait until the media and liberal legislature start hearing stories about gun guys bringing explosives into the equation. All of the self serving chatter and rationalizing on the calguns forum is going to be meaningless in the court of public opinion. Thanks guys!

WeekendWarrior
11-06-2009, 2:52 PM
WWRTW

Mitch
11-06-2009, 3:09 PM
Bweise, the only thing I meant by this is that liklihood of getting in trouble over it down at Panoche is minimal. BLM rangers and DFG are the only ones that actively patrol this area that could get you in trouble as it is Federal land. I was not commenting on legality, merely saying this is probably one of the better places to do it should you decide to.

I have no dog in this fight, but if Bill is correct, I think that means you shouldn't be in possession of the stuff anywhere in California.

bwiese
11-06-2009, 3:30 PM
I have no dog in this fight, but if Bill is
correct, I think that means you shouldn't be in possession of
the stuff anywhere in California.

Yup. Bingo.

The above arguments are at their essence saying, "Go take the risk of felonies because you probably won't be caught."

I too have no "dog" - if Tannerite were demonstrably legal, fine. But I hate to see gunnies not reading and getting enmeshed (or having risk) of difficult-to-fight criminal charges. And you can be sure some noob will say, "But someone on Calguns said Tannerite was legal!"

Again, this is NOT AT ALL like OLL matters. On that, we have clear bounds, clear regulatory path & history, and canned/prepared defenses for anyone legit having OLL issues. The body of law surrounding stuff like Tannerite is very very murky.

bwiese
11-06-2009, 3:32 PM
Bweise, the only thing I meant by this is that liklihood of getting in trouble over it down at Panoche is minimal.


Not necessarily. A new BLM ranger rotated in could decide to call locals asking about legality. Cops start looking up Penal codes etc. and trouble starts.

BLM rangers and DFG are the only ones that actively patrol
this area that could get you in trouble as it is Federal land. DFG are California. They have California LE powers/enforce CA laws, and some may well not like Tannerite or just see the PC I've quoted above.

[quote[I was not commenting on legality, merely saying this is
probably one of the better places to do it should you decide to.
[/quote]

Bank robberies are especially fruitful when no cops are around and you're not caught.

SSSD.

diginit
11-08-2009, 9:09 PM
This sounds to me like another case of someone in authority dislikeing something and doing whatever it takes to assure it is made illegal.
If someone actually has been busted for Tannerite while following the Fed laws reguarding it, They should appeal the judgement with better representation. All the way to the SC if they necessary. Tannerite is a rifle target, With specific rules for it's use. Not a destructive device. Coke and Mentos, On the other hand...
I'm looking forward to hearing both sides of the discussion between Bill and Daniel. We have been using this product for years and demonstrated it's use to law enforcement. Thanks to this post, and a few that oppose this products use, There probably will be problems in the future. So the antis have done their job successfully. again....

bwiese
11-08-2009, 9:32 PM
This sounds to me like another case of someone in authority dislikeing something and doing whatever it takes to assure it is made illegal.

I am neutral on Tannerite. It's not really an RKBA issue, it's an entertainment product.


If someone actually has been busted for Tannerite while following the Fed laws reguarding it, They should appeal the judgement with better representation. All the way to the SC if they necessary.

1. The person involved had good criminal lawyers. It was in
a metro area with busy courts however.

2. Following Fed law is irrelevant if the state law criminalizes it. How
come you can't get that???

3. Since it got down to a misdemeanor + 18 month prohibition, and
it can be expunged, it would not be worth the $100+K cost to appeal
to the Supremes, even if they would hear the case (they likely would
not).

Tannerite is a rifle target, With specific rules for it's use.
Not a destructive device.

When people are buying 25lb jugs it's not just a target, and a target can be anything you aim at anyway. It's a binary explosive that when detonated results in heat and gas expansion at a rapid rate.


We have been using this product for years and demonstrated it's use to law enforcement.

Just because they're cops, they don't always know the law.

And I have plenty of evidence of cops violating the law on guns. Perhaps your cop Tannerite buddies stretch the law in other areas? :)

SJgunguy24
11-08-2009, 9:39 PM
Bill, there's no heat involved. All of the videos with fire and explosions need to have an ignition source. The Tannerite reaction will extinguish a flame.

bwiese
11-08-2009, 9:56 PM
Bill, there's no heat involved. All of the videos with fire and explosions need to have an ignition source. The Tannerite reaction will extinguish a flame.

It's still an exothermic reaction.

Will you put your hands in it?

SJgunguy24
11-08-2009, 10:26 PM
It's still an exothermic reaction.

Will you put your hands in it?

While it's reacting? No. The pressure wave will knock me down.
I gues thats why the directions say never shoot any closer that 100 yards away.
The stuff is harmless. I would be more worried about someone buying 100 instant cold packs while getting into his diesel truck.

CABilly
11-08-2009, 11:16 PM
This kind of action could get you in trouble.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiEUMTT5TxY

:D

I think that's fake. At 36-39 seconds you can see what looks like a fuse burning at the lower left corner of the fridge right before the explosion.

SJgunguy24
11-08-2009, 11:25 PM
I think that's fake. At 36-39 seconds you can see what looks like a fuse burning at the lower left corner of the fridge right before the explosion.

No thats no fake, thats exactly how it works. You saw the ignition source, looks like a flare or something like that.
It there was nothing to light the fuel, it'll never go off.
Thats how it works, pressure, and sound. Very little heat if any.

artherd
11-14-2009, 3:55 PM
Bill, there's no heat involved. All of the videos with fire and explosions need to have an ignition source. The Tannerite reaction will extinguish a flame.

You clearly have no clue what you are talking about.

Tannerite is a HIGH EXPLOSIVE.

It Detonates, in a highly energetic exothermic fashion.

When something Detonates, the reaction moves at or above the speed of sound in the material. When something Deflagrates (burns) it moves at the flame front in the material (much slower.)

The fact that it usually will not initiate combustion in nearby materials is totally irrelevant. Most high explosives will actually put out fires. They are often used to extinguish burning oil wells.

You guys would not believe how many people we have kept out of jail.

Please, just, listen. And take the tannerite to Nevada.

artherd
11-14-2009, 3:58 PM
While it's reacting? No. The pressure wave will knock me down.

Its a HIGH explosive, it will probably not knock you down but the shock wave moving at eight THOUSAND meters per second will liquify your bones.

The stuff is harmless.

It's a high explosive... it's potential for harm depends completely on how much there is and the distance from the blast. It is exactly in the same class as C4, Dynamite, and TNT.

It's also fun as all get out in jurisdictions in which it's legal.

SJgunguy24
11-14-2009, 4:08 PM
Ben I already got all the hate mail. I'm gonna play it safe, but like I stated before. Any hardware store or grocery store manager can be popped for constructive possession the way that law is written.
Just think of all the chaos one could start at a pool supply store.

artherd
11-14-2009, 4:15 PM
Ben I already got all the hate mail. I'm gonna play it safe, but like I stated before. Any hardware store or grocery store manager can be popped for constructive possession the way that law is written.
Just think of all the chaos one could start at a pool supply store.

I'm with ya - the law needs to change.

Mickey D
11-14-2009, 8:28 PM
I've used it up the Feather River Canyon (hwy 70) on BLM land, just northeast of Concow. Fun stuff! Put a liter bottle of white gas if front of or behind before shooting. :D

SJgunguy24
11-14-2009, 9:40 PM
I've used it up the Feather River Canyon (hwy 70) on BLM land, just northeast of Concow. Fun stuff! Put a liter bottle of white gas if front of or behind before shooting. :D

That won't do anything, you need an ignition source. Works kinda like a fuel air bomb.

hoffmang
11-14-2009, 10:32 PM
The Penal Code and the Health and Safety Code make this a gray area at best. Bill will speak to Mr. Tanner and CGF will engage some legal effort to look into this, but I fear on my first reading that Bill is correct that any activist state DA or LEO could prosecute you for a felony.

-Gene

SJgunguy24
11-14-2009, 10:44 PM
The Penal Code and the Health and Safety Code make this a gray area at best. Bill will speak to Mr. Tanner and CGF will engage some legal effort to look into this, but I fear on my first reading that Bill is correct that any activist state DA or LEO could prosecute you for a felony.

-Gene

Gray area? The way that law is written ANYTHING, I mean ANYTHING that can create an "explosive reaction" is illegal. No more science class volcanos, no more mentos and coke. If your a welder your screwed, oxygen and acetlyne.
If intent really has no bering than everybody is in constructive possession of explosive materials.

oaklander
11-14-2009, 10:51 PM
Having nail polish remover for one's wife, and sugar for one's cookies, and fertilizer for one's lawn are more defensible than having something that is advertised as an "exploding target."

I don't agree with the laws here either, but until this gets sorted out, it's best to play it safe.

SJgunguy24
11-14-2009, 11:02 PM
Having nail polish remover for one's wife, and sugar for one's cookies, and fertilizer for one's lawn are more defensible than having something that is advertised as an "exploding target."

I don't agree with the laws here either, but until this gets sorted out, it's best to play it safe.

Kevin, I will. I'm not happy about it but I do trust the CGN board. This law is horrible, the way it's written and Bills explination intent has no meaning.
If a DA want to be a dick he could raid anybody's house and bust them, no matter their intention.
So it doesn't say exploding target, but i'm an electrician and I have Cadweld for making ground connections, and I have a few instant cold packs for the first aid kit. Oh and i'm driving a diesel truck.
Innocent?
I'll be a good boy untill I hear otherwise.

oaklander
11-14-2009, 11:41 PM
If it's any consolation, I'm not too happy about it either. I just built a tack-driver, and that thing is screaming for a nice reactive target!

:D

But Bill & Gene have never steered me in the wrong direction, so I always listen.

Kevin, I will. I'm not happy about it but I do trust the CGN board. This law is horrible, the way it's written and Bills explination intent has no meaning.
If a DA want to be a dick he could raid anybody's house and bust them, no matter their intention.
So it doesn't say exploding target, but i'm an electrician and I have Cadweld for making ground connections, and I have a few instant cold packs for the first aid kit. Oh and i'm driving a diesel truck.
Innocent?
I'll be a good boy untill I hear otherwise.

technique
11-14-2009, 11:46 PM
Can we get a demographic chart on the likelihood of its legality? :D

WeekendWarrior
11-17-2009, 10:46 AM
WWRTW

Ghostwheel
11-17-2009, 11:45 AM
Gray area? The way that law is written ANYTHING, I mean ANYTHING that can create an "explosive reaction" is illegal. No more science class volcanos, no more mentos and coke. If your a welder your screwed, oxygen and acetlyne.
If intent really has no bering than everybody is in constructive possession of explosive materials.

Let's not forget that Safeway is a WMD supply store! Bleach and Ammonia in the same isle! What were they thinking?

-Chris

SJgunguy24
11-17-2009, 12:15 PM
Let's not forget that Safeway is a WMD supply store! Bleach and Ammonia in the same isle! What were they thinking?

-Chris

What are you doing??? The secret is now out:banghead::banghead:

Don't forget about the doom that awaits any and all who enter a Kragens.:willy_nilly::willy_nilly::willy_nilly:

Ghostwheel
11-17-2009, 12:32 PM
What are you doing??? The secret is now out:banghead::banghead:

Don't forget about the doom that awaits any and all who enter a Kragens.:willy_nilly::willy_nilly::willy_nilly:

Let's also not forget the dangers of DHMO. Incredibly deadly, and in every household: http://www.dhmo.org/

evollep3
11-17-2009, 12:38 PM
an interesting thread but man i dont know what to say Dignit is probaly one of the most knowledgable person i know and so is bill i think i will stay out of this one

xrMike
11-17-2009, 1:20 PM
Let's also not forget the dangers of DHMO. Incredibly deadly, and in every household: http://www.dhmo.org/The world's deadliest solvent! It is responsible for more deaths throughout recorded history than all other chemicals combined! They really need to outlaw that stuff. You can bet they will some day.

WeekendWarrior
11-17-2009, 1:32 PM
WWRTW

diginit
11-21-2009, 8:48 PM
OK, If I read 12030 and 12031 correctly, Our AMMO is illegal and anyone that shoots a gun is a felon. It is an explosive reaction emiting gasses. Think about that one.
Daniels' Lawers have researched this till it hurts. In ALL states.

diginit
11-21-2009, 9:03 PM
Its a HIGH explosive, it will probably not knock you down but the shock wave moving at eight THOUSAND meters per second will liquify your bones.



It's a high explosive... it's potential for harm depends completely on how much there is and the distance from the blast. It is exactly in the same class as C4, Dynamite, and TNT.

It's also fun as all get out in jurisdictions in which it's legal.


I'm sorry, But Tannerite is only considered a high explosive if over 10 lbs are mixed. That is not legal. Feds have tested this and this is their conclusion. Fed law overides State law last I heard.
If someone has a 25 lb in a single bag and gets busted, It has different implications. But seperate 1/2 or 1lb charges are nothing more than rifle targets and the result of a plea bargan does not constitute fed, state, or local laws. The person that got arrested for illegal open carry and possession of explosives (25 lbs in a sack) needed representation with a better knowledge of the facts of their case.

diginit
11-24-2009, 9:42 PM
OK, If I read 12030 and 12031 correctly, Our AMMO is illegal and anyone that shoots a gun is a felon. It is an explosive reaction emiting gasses. Think about that one.
Daniels' Lawers have researched this till it hurts. In ALL states.

I guess no one liked this one....Threw a kink in this, Did I?
It's strange that 50 people (including the S.F. D.A.) say it's legal and 1 says it isn't. Hierarchy Like or dislike seems to rule in Ca...Period

I have NO desire to harm the CGF's reputation at all. I, for one, appreciate all the Foundation has done for our rights. You'd think that finding it legal would help CG as well as those who responsibly use it, Considering we have been using and posting it for over 3 years now.

WeekendWarrior
11-25-2009, 9:45 AM
WWRTW

Jel
11-25-2009, 9:54 AM
I guess no one liked this one....Threw a kink in this, Did I?
It's strange that 50 people (including the S.F. D.A.) say it's legal and 1 says it isn't. Hierarchy Like or dislike seems to rule in Ca...Period

I have NO desire to harm the CGF's reputation at all. I, for one, appreciate all the Foundation has done for our rights. You'd think that finding it legal would help CG as well as those who responsibly use it, Considering we have been using and posting it for over 3 years now.

I feel ya James...and I'm in 100% agreement with you.

evollep3
11-25-2009, 10:38 AM
I'm sorry, But Tannerite is only considered a high explosive if over 10 lbs are mixed. That is not legal. Feds have tested this and this is their conclusion. Fed law overides State law last I heard.
If someone has a 25 lb in a single bag and gets busted, It has different implications. But seperate 1/2 or 1lb charges are nothing more than rifle targets and the result of a plea bargan does not constitute fed, state, or local laws. The person that got arrested for illegal open carry and possession of explosives (25 lbs in a sack) needed representation with a better knowledge of the facts of their case.

when we going back to panoche is what i want to know :)

WeekendWarrior
11-25-2009, 10:44 AM
WWRTW

evollep3
11-25-2009, 10:47 AM
lets do it ! i might go this weekend just cause

diginit
11-25-2009, 10:06 PM
I've got 25 lbs of this socalled illegal product. More when I get to the drug store. And I'm not afraid to say so. Keep in mind that I have a friend that is a good friend of the sole patent holder of this product. I have been assured it is legal in Ca. So go ahead and buy some. UPS wouldn't ship it from the factory to Ca. if it were illegal. Just don't put it in a 10lb or larger bag or bottle.
In order to satisfy the anti's on this site, We should organize this shoot on Bumpfire.net. The Mods there have no dislike for it and know it is legal.

SJgunguy24
11-26-2009, 7:36 AM
an-fo?? let me guess. you just watched "deja vu". i read this entire thread, and im definitly not up to par in regards of the law as some of these guys, but in my opinion this stuff is an explosive. im going to try to get into contact with one of my old instructors, its a long shot, but i want to see his opinion. im also going to try to talk to someone EOD qualified and see what they say about it. and not in regard to ca law, just to see what they think of this particular compound. i dont think high school chemistry makes anyone an expert on this subject. i wouldnt be caught dead with this stuff unless i had proof it was considered legal. and i dont think the state of california is going to tell anybody it is definitly ok. im no expert by any means, but i have a little training and experience.

No fuel oil, it's mostly ammonium nitrate and aluminum powder.
When used as directed it's very safe. Handguns won't set it off.
There's more dangerous stuff at Home Depot
Whats Deja-va?

Mickey D
11-26-2009, 7:54 AM
That won't do anything, you need an ignition source. Works kinda like a fuel air bomb.

Have you shot Tannerite? There is an instance of flame when fired upon. I have had white gas ignite if you vaporize it while shoooting the Tannerite.

SJgunguy24
11-26-2009, 8:16 AM
Have you shot Tannerite? There is an instance of flame when fired upon. I have had white gas ignite if you vaporize it while shoooting the Tannerite.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Sv1pCDooGp4&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Sv1pCDooGp4&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
Yes, nothing caught on fire.

You had to of had a secondary ignition source. I have tried to get a like what you see in some of the videos but it didn't light.
I used something with a bit more energy than white gas.

diginit
11-26-2009, 7:44 PM
Tannerite will NOT ignite white gas. The flash point is not high enough. It is a cold explosion caused by a molecular reaction, and the gas will just evaporate. It will NOT ignite 97 octane unless occopanied by a flare or other ignition source. PERIOD.
It will ignite diesel fuel. Diesel is ignited by compression, But combining Tannerite and Diesel fuel IS considered making a bomb in CA. Once again, It takes a 10 lb charge of Tannerite to be considered a high explosive. Anything added to the T charge (unless over 10 lbs) is a felony. But ONLY in CA. In any of the true United States, It is permitted. I guess I'm going to have to contact Daniel Tanner again. Like he doesn't have anything better to do than clear up BS from paranoid people.

diginit
11-26-2009, 8:00 PM
Have you shot Tannerite? There is an instance of flame when fired upon. I have had white gas ignite if you vaporize it while shoooting the Tannerite.

I'm sorry, You are mistaken. I've done extensive research and have shot Tannerite at LEAST once a month for over 3 years. Sometimes 3 times. Day and night. The flame you speak of is of a low temperature, NOT enough to ignite any gasoline. I know this to be fact. If you shoot it at night, You see a flash. But it still will NOT ignite Gasoline. Like I said, I know....We don't need anyone making assumptions. Because the definition of assume is to make an a** out of you and me.

supersonic
11-26-2009, 8:02 PM
an-fo?? let me guess. you just watched "deja vu". i read this entire thread, and im definitly not up to par in regards of the law as some of these guys, but in my opinion this stuff is an explosive. im going to try to get into contact with one of my old instructors, its a long shot, but i want to see his opinion. im also going to try to talk to someone EOD qualified and see what they say about it. and not in regard to ca law, just to see what they think of this particular compound. i dont think high school chemistry makes anyone an expert on this subject. i wouldnt be caught dead with this stuff unless i had proof it was considered legal. and i dont think the state of california is going to tell anybody it is definitly ok. im no expert by any means, but i have a little training and experience.

Why don't you just save your words/opinions until YOU DO get the 'OFFICIAL' "word" from your instructor and the EOD 'longshot' you seem to mention, even though it's a ...........longshot???:confused:

diginit
11-26-2009, 8:58 PM
Why don't you just save your words/opinions until YOU DO get the 'OFFICIAL' "word" from your instructor and the EOD 'longshot' you seem to mention, even though it's a ...........longshot???:confused:


Straight to the point. I like that. I just didn't want to seem rude.
What does the instructor know? Other that tactics. The EOD, the same. The problem here is that one person says it MAY BE illegal. And Daniel Tanner's lawers say the opposite. Why the hell the OP asked this in the first place, I have NO idea. It IS legal is ALL 50 states! We have been using it for years, And I have said before, Have demonstrated it's PROPER use for BLM Rangers. Who loved it and knew it was legal. WTF? I'm ready to start a CA court case to define it's legality myself.

just4fun63
11-26-2009, 9:08 PM
I have since become aware of a person who has been popped for Tannerite - components, I believe, not mixed.

He lost his gun rights for 3 years on a plea down to misdemeanor.

The writing in 12301PC is very murkly, worse even than that of constructive possession for MGs/SBRs/SBSes.

Until Tannerite comes up with a letter from DOJ and/or a local DA I'd not touch the stuff.

Anyone saying otherwise has not read the law, nor thought how far it can extend.

This may have been covered as I didnít read the whole thread. I talked to a friend who used to work for Arson/Bomb. He said it's legal until you mix it then you just manufactured an explosive without a license. Also, taking a legal firework and modifying it to increase the PSI and cause a boom is illegal.

diginit
11-26-2009, 9:27 PM
This may have been covered as I didn’t read the whole thread. I talked to a friend who used to work for Arson/Bomb. He said it's legal until you mix it then you just manufactured an explosive without a license. Also, taking a legal firework and modifying it to increase the PSI and cause a boom is illegal.

CORRECT! About time...Dog gone it... Tannerite can only be mixed at the range at the time of shooting. Also, It cannot be mixed or nothing added to increase it's potential. No more than 10 lb charges. BINGO! Thanks Just4fun. That's exactly what Tannerite is for. Just For Fun.
I'm so happy someone here is unbiased and will post what is true weather they like it or not.
__________________

just4fun63
11-26-2009, 9:35 PM
CORRECT! About time...Dog gone it... Tannerite can only be mixed at the range at the time of shooting. Also, It cannot be mixed or nothing added to increase it's potential. No more than 10 lb charges. BINGO! Thanks Just4fun. That's exactly what Tannerite is for. Just For Fun.
I'm so happy someone here is unbiased and will post what is true weather they like it or not.
__________________

Just as a caveat don't mess with tannerite! In an explosives class I have seen what tannerite can do when compressed and set off with a blasting cap. It can be made very powerful.

diginit
11-26-2009, 9:40 PM
Just as a caveat don't mess with tannerite! In an explosives class I have seen what tannerite can do when compressed and set off with a blasting cap. It can be made very powerful.

Yes, It can be. But we only shoot Tannerite. Nothing mixed with it. Therefore, it is not considered a high explosive. Blasting caps are illegal unless you are licensed. I even have a BB and 10 rnd mags on my AR. I follow the letter of the law.

just4fun63
11-26-2009, 9:50 PM
Following the letter of the law is smart. Someone mentioned earlier that they would like to get a case decided on this. I wish there was a way to get a legal ruling on issues like this. You could write to the " please explain this in plain english" department and get a answer like "yes it is" :eek:

paratroop
11-27-2009, 4:37 AM
Why don't you just save your words/opinions until YOU DO get the 'OFFICIAL' "word" from your instructor and the EOD 'longshot' you seem to mention, even though it's a ...........longshot???:confused:

well, nevermind. you guys are all pros and thats all that really matters now isnt it.

supersonic
11-27-2009, 11:14 AM
Straight to the point. I like that. I just didn't want to seem rude.
What does the instructor know? Other that tactics. The EOD, the same. The problem here is that one person says it MAY BE illegal. And Daniel Tanner's lawers say the opposite. Why the hell the OP asked this in the first place, I have NO idea. It IS legal is ALL 50 states! We have been using it for years, And I have said before, Have demonstrated it's PROPER use for BLM Rangers. Who loved it and knew it was legal. WTF? I'm ready to start a CA court case to define it's legality myself.

THANK YOU!!!! I tend to (say) what most people are (feeling)........I just don't pull any punches, is all!;)

Mendo223
11-27-2009, 8:28 PM
Well, we went to Panoche and shot all sorts of tannerite and ran into no problems. Pumpkins go BOOM!

wow sounds lke fun im gonna have to plan a trip!

diginit
12-02-2009, 10:09 PM
WELL? Has everyone just written this off because they don't like or it conflicts with their interests? This is about what is legal and what is not, Just like OLL's. NO difference. Many people know it IS legal, Including the S.F. D.A.
YES, San Francisco of all places. It seems only one person is Ca. says it is illegal. And their political propaganda (FUD) has others believing also. One time before this....Their mistake was just ignored and the post left to die.
This will not happen to this post. I ask anyone that has responsibly shot this product that has half a round one to post a comment here. It's a shame that a man can't simply admit they made a mistake.
I would respect them so much more. But Tannerite is not liked and it makes gunners look bad. I have only one word left, BULL. James.

SJgunguy24
12-02-2009, 10:21 PM
This may have been covered as I didnít read the whole thread. I talked to a friend who used to work for Arson/Bomb. He said it's legal until you mix it then you just manufactured an explosive without a license. Also, taking a legal firework and modifying it to increase the PSI and cause a boom is illegal.

Piccilo petes and vise grips............constructive possession?

Ghostwheel
12-02-2009, 11:22 PM
I have since become aware of a person who has been popped for Tannerite - components, I believe, not mixed.

Is there any chance you can give us enough specific information that we can google, or use some other research method, to get the whole story? Without specifics it might as well be urban legend.



He lost his gun rights for 3 years on a plea down to misdemeanor.


A plea agreement does not set legal precedence, so unless I know the details of his arrest I'm not going to assume that his circumstances will apply to everyone.




Anyone saying otherwise has not read the law, nor thought how far it can extend.

I am not saying that I know the law, but I am saying that I think we deserve the facts. Hearsay anecdotal cases are not the basis on which to make any rational decision.

So, can someone point me to a California case that has gone to trial and set binding precedence?

-Chris

bwiese
12-02-2009, 11:49 PM
Diginit is being disingenuous with his comparisons.

I would not have joined/assisted startup of the OLL campaign had the laws on AWs been as murky as 12301PC et seq. Furthermore, there was no constructive possession for AWs, and there is for DDs. So those comparisons are wildly inappropriate.

SF DA has said that Tannerite is legal? Which one, Kamala Harris, or former DA Terence Hallinan? I'm sure you have no paper from either of these people. You may have one junior DA that was asked a question and made favorable noises.

I will be making further inquiries into Tannerite including talking to Tanner himself (not that he knows anything) because I wanna keep good guys out of trouble, but other priorities do exist since Tannerite issues are not RKBA issues.

Mitch
12-03-2009, 6:45 AM
WELL? Has everyone just written this off because they don't like or it conflicts with their interests?

Since you are the guy who claims Tanner is a buddy of yours, you seem to be the only one here with an interest. Everyone else is just arguing the facts as they see them.

WeekendWarrior
12-03-2009, 8:20 AM
WWRTW

Full Clip
12-03-2009, 8:54 AM
I will be making further inquiries into Tannerite including talking to Tanner himself (not that he knows anything) because I wanna keep good guys out of trouble...

Bill, you make interesting points here and I would not personally buy Tannerite until I understand the subject more fully, however, injecting arrogance into an argument never helps.
I look forward to seeing Tanner's documentation but won't simply pre-judge him and assume he is ignorant of the law.

bwiese
12-03-2009, 9:37 AM
Bill, you make interesting points here and I would not personally buy Tannerite until I understand the subject more fully, however, injecting arrogance into an argument never helps.
I look forward to seeing Tanner's documentation but won't simply pre-judge him and assume he is ignorant of the law.

Based on several years' prior experience in dealing with out-of-state gun vendors, etc. it's clear to me out of staters - even lawyers - really don't understand CA laws or regulatory procedures.

evollep3
12-03-2009, 1:42 PM
Mitch, I would like to see Tannerite approved for use! Diginit is by far not the only one who is very interested in the outcome of this debate and bwiese's inquiries. Since I am relatively new to PCs, I will let those who are much more tenured and versed in PCs come up with the answer, but I can tell you there are a lot of people with a deep interest in the outcome of this.

All I can do here is wait for the outcome of the situation and do anything I can to help if/when asked to do so. (Please let me know if there is anything I can do to help. I am getting the tannerite itch bad, but will hold off until this matter is resolved)

DUDES! all this tension here is no bueno! how about we resolve this in a good ole cap gun draw out first one shoot have to fall to the floor! if not how about its time to go to panoche and relax in the quite land of BLM away from the females?

Full Clip
12-03-2009, 4:20 PM
Based on several years' prior experience in dealing with out-of-state gun vendors, etc. it's clear to me out of staters - even lawyers - really don't understand CA laws or regulatory procedures.

Yes, I know that's the case, just based on my own dealings, but there are always exceptions. And given the fact that Tanner makes his living from openly selling a product that would/should attract a LOT of attention, I'd like to think he has done a little research to determine its legality. However, I'm not assuming he has.
Regardless, I look forward to hearing something directly from Tanner or seeing some legal documentation.

Ghostwheel
12-04-2009, 12:17 AM
Based on several years' prior experience in dealing with out-of-state gun vendors, etc. it's clear to me out of staters - even lawyers - really don't understand CA laws or regulatory procedures.

Howdy bwiese,

I am glad to see that you are still engaged in this discussion. Though, I am sad to see that you are responding to other posts while neglecting my request to provide specifics regarding the case you previously mentioned where someone plead out on charges that originated with Tannerite possession.

Could you please spare us all a moment of your time and provide us with concrete facts on which we can evaluate the way members of California's executive branch consider tannerite? You claim to have facts that we do not have, and it would greatly help us all in our quest for understanding if you would share your knowledge with us.

You stated "I have since become aware of a person who has been popped for Tannerite - components, I believe, not mixed" and I am sure I am not the only one eager to hear facts regarding this case that can be verified via public record. Since you are the only one in this thread who has stated knowledge of these facts I am sure you can understand why we are asking your for assistance in coming to an understanding regarding this situation.

Thank you for your assistance during these troubling times,

-Chris

bwiese
12-04-2009, 12:39 AM
It was mentioned before.
A very good Calgunner was popped a coupla years ago in LA area for *only* Tannerite (no 'color' or other charges).
He was charged with FELONY dd charges. After significant expensive lawyering that was funded by a rich uncle, it was plead down to misdemeanor H&S violation with 18 month stipulated firearms possession ban. The individual missed the first year or so of the OLL revolution.

That's all the detail I'll give out given the individual wants some privacy but also wants to warn others.

Ghostwheel
12-04-2009, 7:45 AM
It was mentioned before.
A very good Calgunner was popped a coupla years ago in LA area for *only* Tannerite (no 'color' or other charges).
He was charged with FELONY dd charges. After significant expensive lawyering that was funded by a rich uncle, it was plead down to misdemeanor H&S violation with 18 month stipulated firearms possession ban. The individual missed the first year or so of the OLL revolution.

That's all the detail I'll give out given the individual wants some privacy but also wants to warn others.

I do appreciate the reply, but you could have just said "I can't give you details"; because like you said everything above "was mentioned before" and I was asking for MORE information than this. I appreciate that you are respecting this person's right to privacy, so I'll stop bugging you. But, without all the details and the context of the arrest I'm not going to let this hearsay story affect my choices when I pack my vehicle on the way to Panoche.

-Chris

Gossettc68
12-04-2009, 11:12 AM
Mr. Gossett,

Please keep me in the loop regarding the thread on CalGuns. I don’t have time to search the net during work hours for obvious reasons and I am on conference with Asia after 6pm regarding importing, but a Google alert popped up on my business email and it appears that the thread is continuing.

I sent a letter to Mr Bill Wiese over a month ago, including all of my personal information, wishing to review his ideas on legalities of Tannerite, and have offered the assistance of my own attorneys free of charge, and I have never received a response from him in any form.

Please assure the folks on the forum that my service to customers has not been limited to ‘concern’. I have helped every customer who has ever been cited for using Tannerite as a shot indicator, as prescribed, by supplying them with my law firms who specialize in this field of expertise….in every state. I do this free of charge. A company couldn’t expect repeat business if they didn’t stand behind their product and claims. By helping customers out of legal binds, it not only helps develop precedence on the legal end and education within the industry and governing agencies, but it’s simply the right thing to do.

Not being a member of Calguns, and not having time to monitor internet threads, I would appreciate it if you or anyone else would notify the company if there is a comment made that should be brought to our attention.

Cordially,
Dan J. Tanner
Tannerite Company
36366 Valley Rd
Pleasant Hill OR 97455
877-744-1406

SJgunguy24
12-04-2009, 11:28 AM
Mr. Gossett,

Please keep me in the loop regarding the thread on CalGuns. I donít have time to search the net during work hours for obvious reasons and I am on conference with Asia after 6pm regarding importing, but a Google alert popped up on my business email and it appears that the thread is continuing.

I sent a letter to Mr Bob Wise over a month ago, including all of my personal information, wishing to review his ideas on legalities of Tannerite, and have offered the assistance of my own attorneys free of charge, and I have never received a response from him in any form.

Please assure the folks on the forum that my service to customers has not been limited to Ďconcerní. I have helped every customer who has ever been cited for using Tannerite as a shot indicator, as prescribed, by supplying them with my law firms who specialize in this field of expertiseÖ.in every state. I do this free of charge. A company couldnít expect repeat business if they didnít stand behind their product and claims. By helping customers out of legal binds, it not only helps develop precedence on the legal end and education within the industry and governing agencies, but itís simply the right thing to do.

Not being a member of Calguns, and not having time to monitor internet threads, I would appreciate it if you or anyone else would notify the company if there is a comment made that should be brought to our attention.

Cordially,
Dan J. Tanner
Tannerite Company
36366 Valley Rd
Pleasant Hill OR 97455
877-744-1406

Well, now we wait.........................

evollep3
12-04-2009, 11:28 AM
classic ok this man has my business :)

Ghostwheel
12-04-2009, 9:05 PM
Mr. Gossett,

Please keep me in the loop regarding the thread on CalGuns. I donít have time to search the net during work hours for obvious reasons and I am on conference with Asia after 6pm regarding importing, but a Google alert popped up on my business email and it appears that the thread is continuing.

I sent a letter to Mr Bill Wiese over a month ago, including all of my personal information, wishing to review his ideas on legalities of Tannerite, and have offered the assistance of my own attorneys free of charge, and I have never received a response from him in any form.

Please assure the folks on the forum that my service to customers has not been limited to Ďconcerní. I have helped every customer who has ever been cited for using Tannerite as a shot indicator, as prescribed, by supplying them with my law firms who specialize in this field of expertiseÖ.in every state. I do this free of charge. A company couldnít expect repeat business if they didnít stand behind their product and claims. By helping customers out of legal binds, it not only helps develop precedence on the legal end and education within the industry and governing agencies, but itís simply the right thing to do.

Not being a member of Calguns, and not having time to monitor internet threads, I would appreciate it if you or anyone else would notify the company if there is a comment made that should be brought to our attention.

Cordially,
Dan J. Tanner
Tannerite Company
36366 Valley Rd
Pleasant Hill OR 97455
877-744-1406

Thank you, sir. This is the single most on-point and comprehensive email in this entire thread.

-Chris

diginit
12-05-2009, 2:31 PM
Well, now we wait.........................

Wait for what? This entire thread is based on FUD.
I recieved an interesting email recectly. Some paragraphs and phrases have been omitted to protect the ignorant.

I can understand protecting members and being concerned. However I can assure you that we ship Tannerite out on a daily basis to California. Trust me, If it were illegal we would know about it.

That being said, on occasion there are people who are cited for using Tannerite all over the U.S. This stems from uneducated law officials and district attorneys. It does happen from time to time. But believe me when it does happen we know about it. And Daniel steps in, charges get dropped. And there has been circumstances where a customer has used the product outside it's intended use.

After talking to Daniel about the guy that " Supposedly " got busted for use of Tannerite, we have heard of no such case. And if it did happen, any lawyer worth his salt would have most certainly contacted us. If someone did get busted using Tannerite then the chances are he was not using it in a acceptable manner.

Tannerite is legal regardless *************** The day that it becomes illegal, you can bet your *** we will be the first ones to know and of course halt sales to said state.

CA_AR-15_925
12-05-2009, 2:32 PM
And wait

diginit
12-05-2009, 2:38 PM
For a retraction, maybe?

CA_AR-15_925
12-05-2009, 2:39 PM
Tannerite is hella fun to shoot. I buy 2 boxes and have a blast. I only shoot it in the nevada desert. (Blackrock). I won't shoot it in Cali until I have some DOJ paperwork. I just don't have lawyer money if needed.

M. Sage
12-05-2009, 9:32 PM
I'm just going to say, go read CA's penal code on "destructive devices". If you put dry ice in an empty bottle and seal it, it's a DD. Anything that explodes by a chemical reaction taking place in a sealed container is a DD.

diginit
12-05-2009, 9:42 PM
I'm just going to say, go read CA's penal code on "destructive devices". If you put dry ice in an empty bottle and seal it, it's a DD. Anything that explodes by a chemical reaction taking place in a sealed container is a DD.

You mean like ammunition?
Gunpowder burning is a chemical reaction. Inclosed in a casing, it is a small bomb. a case in a safe is alittle bigger. But this is different because? We ALL like it?

Hey guys, We are all felons. The anti's just won.

Why is it that everyone that no experience with it and knows Bill is against it and everyone that has used it for years and knows me is for it. Although I've never met the SF DA and many others.
Once Again. Tannerite is as legal in Ca. as your ammo, OLL, or Mac 10 with FFL modified serial numbers. There are laws reguarding it's proper use. Therefore avoiding the DD classification unless used as one. Which would be illegal. It is a reactive rifle target.

Daniel Tanners' lawers have researched this until they bleed. Non CA. or otherwise. There have been NO convictions is the US for the proper use of this product.

Gossettc68
12-05-2009, 9:55 PM
I'm just going to say, go read CA's penal code on "destructive devices". If you put dry ice in an empty bottle and seal it, it's a DD. Anything that explodes by a chemical reaction taking place in a sealed container is a DD.

No I am sorry, you are wrong.

A destructive device is a firearm or explosive device that, in the United States, is regulated by the National Firearms Act of 1934. Examples of destructive devices are grenades, and firearms with a bore over one half of an inch, including some semi-automatic shotguns. While current federal laws allow destructive devices, some states have banned them from transfer to civilians. In states where banned, only law enforcement officers and military personnel are allowed to possess them.

All National Firearms Act firearms including destructive devices, must be registered with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, who then closely monitor use, transport, and storage of the items.

The definition of a "destructive device" is found in 26 U.S.C. ß 5845(f). The definition reads as follows:

(1) any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas, (A) bomb, (B) grenade, (C) rocket having a propellant charge of more than 4 ounces, (D) missile having an explosive charge of more than 1/4 ounce, (E) mine or (F) similar device.

(2) Any weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes; and

(3) Any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into a destructive device as defined in subparagraphs (1) and (2) and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled.

The term destructive device shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned or given by the Secretary of the Army, pursuant to the provisions of section 4684(2), 4685, or 4686 of Title 10 of the United States Code; or any other device the Secretary finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, or is an antique or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes

Ghostwheel
12-05-2009, 11:04 PM
I'm just going to say, go read CA's penal code on "destructive devices". If you put dry ice in an empty bottle and seal it, it's a DD. Anything that explodes by a chemical reaction taking place in a sealed container is a DD.

My apologies in advance. I'm just feeling kind of ornery at the moment so I'm going to nitpick. Don't take it personally, there has been plenty of posts in this thread worthy of nitpicking and I'm kinda being opportunistic with this one.

The statement "If you put dry ice in an empty bottle and seal it, it's a DD" is not covered by the statement "Anything that explodes by a chemical reaction taking place in a sealed container is a DD".

The explosion caused by Dry Ice (frozen CO2) in a sealed container is NOT a chemical reaction. It is a result of the pressure generated by the physical transformation of a solid molecular state to a gaseous molecular state. Dry Ice is one of several chemicals that (normally) sublimates from solid to gas without becoming liquid in between. Though, that only happens when not under pressure. It is actually possible to get Dry Ice to transform into a liquid if you do seal it into a container capable of holding back the expansion pressure. (You might not find that on wikipedia, but as a physics and chemistry major I did prove this as part of a class project.)

-Chris

M. Sage
12-05-2009, 11:33 PM
You mean like ammunition?
Gunpowder burning is a chemical reaction. Inclosed in a casing, it is a small bomb. a case in a safe is alittle bigger. But this is different because? We ALL like it?

Hey guys, We are all felons. The anti's just won.

Why is it that everyone that no experience with it and knows Bill is against it and everyone that has used it for years and knows me is for it. Although I've never met the SF DA and many others.
Once Again. Tannerite is as legal in Ca. as your ammo, OLL, or Mac 10 with FFL modified serial numbers. There are laws reguarding it's proper use. Therefore avoiding the DD classification unless used as one. Which would be illegal. It is a reactive rifle target.

Daniel Tanners' lawers have researched this until they bleed. Non CA. or otherwise. There have been NO convictions is the US for the proper use of this product.

Not yet. Use it in CA enough and there will be. I've posted the entirety of the relevant PC further down.

My apologies in advance. I'm just feeling kind of ornery at the moment so I'm going to nitpick. Don't take it personally, there has been plenty of posts in this thread worthy of nitpicking and I'm kinda being opportunistic with this one.

The statement "If you put dry ice in an empty bottle and seal it, it's a DD" is not covered by the statement "Anything that explodes by a chemical reaction taking place in a sealed container is a DD".

The explosion caused by Dry Ice (frozen CO2) in a sealed container is NOT a chemical reaction. It is a result of the pressure generated by the physical transformation of a solid molecular state to a gaseous molecular state. Dry Ice is one of several chemicals that (normally) sublimates from solid to gas without becoming liquid in between. Though, that only happens when not under pressure. It is actually possible to get Dry Ice to transform into a liquid if you do seal it into a container capable of holding back the expansion pressure. (You might not find that on wikipedia, but as a physics and chemistry major I did prove this as part of a class project.)

-Chris

Dude, I know all about phase changes. I completely understand your nit-picking on that one, since I didn't post the PC section for you (I was hoping that others would Google it, but I'll do the work for y'all). I know very well how dry ice noisemakers work. :) CA's legislature... not so much (it frightens me that they're this stupid, but they also banned a non-existent Asian martial arts weapon, too):

# 12301. (a) The term "destructive device," as used in this chapter, shall include any of the following weapons: (1) Any projectile containing any explosive or incendiary material or any other chemical substance, including, but not limited to, that which is commonly known as tracer or incendiary ammunition, except tracer ammunition manufactured for use in shotguns. (2) Any bomb, grenade, explosive missile, or similar device or any launching device therefor. (3) Any weapon of a caliber greater than 0.60 caliber which fires fixed ammunition, or any ammunition therefor, other than a shotgun (smooth or rifled bore) conforming to the definition of a "destructive device" found in subsection (b) of Section 479.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, shotgun ammunition (single projectile or shot), antique rifle, or an antique cannon. For purposes of this section, the term "antique cannon" means any cannon manufactured before January 1, 1899, which has been rendered incapable of firing or for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade. The term "antique rifle" means a firearm conforming to the definition of an "antique firearm" in Section 479.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations. (4) Any rocket, rocket-propelled projectile, or similar device of a diameter greater than 0.60 inch, or any launching device therefor, and any rocket, rocket-propelled projectile, or similar device containing any explosive or incendiary material or any other chemical substance, other than the propellant for that device, except those devices as are designed primarily for emergency or distress signaling purposes. (5) Any breakable container which contains a flammable liquid with a flashpoint of 150 degrees Fahrenheit or less and has a wick or similar device capable of being ignited, other than a device which is commercially manufactured primarily for the purpose of illumination. (6) Any sealed device containing dry ice (CO2) or other chemically reactive substances assembled for the purpose of causing an explosion by a chemical reaction. (b) The term "explosive," as used in this chapter, shall mean any explosive defined in Section 12000 of the Health and Safety Code.

Sections 2 and 6 worry me when it comes to Tannerite.

Ghostwheel
12-06-2009, 3:27 PM
Sections 2 and 6 worry me when it comes to Tannerite.

I can see why those sections could be reason for concern. They are very broad strokes and they paint a lot of things as illegal. By their definition, putting baking soda and vinegar into a balloon would be illegal. Of course, no cop would enforce this law against a baking soda and vinegar balloon; as that would be rather silly.

What gives me hope is that, so far, law enforcement out at Panoche has shown no inclination to act on this very broadly written law. Ninth grade civics... The power of the executive branch includes the ability to _not_ enforce a law that they do not support. Law enforcement officers have witnessed Tannerite used, as prescribed on the label, and they have not seen it as an issue. (So far, I admit.)

This could be a matter of context, though. Panoche is far from residential housing, and the LEOs could just be a bit more relaxed. Bill has referenced a case down in the "LA area" where cops did take issue; but we don't know if that was LA residential, or LA rural (IS there a LA rural?). In a residential setting, the police are far less likely to be 'flexible'.

It's kind of like how everyone goes five miles over the speed limit on the highway, but do it in a school zone at 2:25pm and you are begging for a ticket. BOTH cases are illegal, but in the former your chances of seeing the law enforced are pretty slim.

Maybe the title of this thread should be "Safe to shoot Tannerite on BLM land?" because then we could actually discuss what many of us have witnessed first hand as opposed to hashing and rehashing our reading of the law. I have personally used Tannerite reactive targets out at Panoche on many occasions, sometimes with and sometimes without other CalGuns members. I wasn't mixing large batches, and we were maintaining safe firing line procedures. Basically, we were not giving LEOs any reason to think we were a danger to ourselves or to others.

I was also glad to see the letter from Mr. Tanner. I'm going to print a copy of that letter and drop it into my tuppy of tannerite targets.

I think this entire thread could be summed up like this:

1) According to CA PC #12301, Tannerite reactive targets could be considered an explosive device. You could get arrested*.
2) If you get cited, arrested, etc for Tannerite, contact Dan Tanner for some free legal aid. But, retain your own council; since his interests may not always match yours.
3) Many CalGuns members have shot Tannerite targets at Panoche, in the presense of LEOs, and not had an issue. YMMV.

-Chris

*Even if a Tannerite case goes through the courts and is proven entirely legal, a LEO could still arrest you for "disorderly conduct" or "disturbing the peace". If a cop wants to arrest you, he will; and even if you don't go to jail it will cost you a lot of money and give him a lot of overtime.

retired
12-06-2009, 4:21 PM
*Even if a Tannerite case goes through the courts and is proven entirely legal, a LEO could still arrest you for "disorderly conduct" or "disturbing the peace". If a cop wants to arrest you, he will; and even if you don't go to jail it will cost you a lot of money and give him a lot of overtime.[/QUOTE]

Not necessarily. If he works dayshift, which is when most criminal cases are heard, he will be in court while on duty, so there will be no OT.:D He can only hope that it continues on beyond his shift.;)

Ghostwheel
12-06-2009, 4:44 PM
Not necessarily. If he works dayshift, which is when most criminal cases are heard, he will be in court while on duty, so there will be no OT.:D He can only hope that it continues on beyond his shift.;)

I was thinking of the day of the arrest. Hauling someone in. Taking their statement, if they are dumb enough to talk. There is a fantastic video lecture on YouTube called "Don't Talk to Cops". The first half is a law professor, and the second half is a LEO.

Don't Talk to Cops, Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik)
Don't Talk to Cops, Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE)

Well worth the time to watch.

In the second half, the LEO admits that when he would take someone in for questioning his mindset would be (paraphrased) "My overtime rate is $58/hr. I'll stay here for the next ten hours".

diginit
12-06-2009, 7:04 PM
The term destructive device shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon;
This says it pretty well. By the way, Tannerite is not a chemical reaction. It is a reaction at the molecular level. This is getting :wheelchair:
And I'm tired of :beatdeadhorse5: Is that illegal too? Animal cruelty? After it's already dead? Needs some research....

Some of the best lawers in the country say it's legal when used within correct parameters. Only those who feel it will damage their cause seem to be concerened. I understand if CG won't allow it as do some ranges.
But to call it illegal due to this fear is just wrong.

Ghostwheel
12-06-2009, 7:56 PM
By the way, Tannerite is not a chemical reaction. It is a reaction at the molecular level.

First off, I want to say that I am in the 100% pro-tannerite camp.

Second... A reaction at the molecular level IS a chemical reaction.

Tannerite explosions are the result of a chemical reaction of Ammonia Perchlorate, Ammonia Nitrate, Aluminum powder, Titanium powder and Zirconium, triggered by the impact of a centerfire rifle round.*

-Chris

*My reference for this is Daniel Tanner's registered patent (http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=%2220030033952%22.PGNR.&OS=DN/20030033952&RS=DN/20030033952).

Gossettc68
12-07-2009, 9:33 PM
I am revising what was put in this post prior, Stay tuned.

Charles

WeekendWarrior
12-08-2009, 12:00 PM
WWRTW

CHS
12-08-2009, 2:17 PM
What about those little snappers you throw on the ground and they explode? You know, the ones you can buy in chinatown and come packed in saw dust? By the definitions above, those would be destructive devices and would be a felony to posses... yet they are legal because they were not designed as destructive devices (they were designed as a toy). Yet, they contain a substance that explodes with kinetic energy from an impact just like Tannerite does...


Those are legal because they are specifically classified as fireworks (and thus don't fall under that same PC) and explicitly approved by the CA State Fire Marshall as being "safe and sane".

Deadbolt
12-08-2009, 2:45 PM
looks like a ton of fun - but in CA id suspect they'd be leery of the potential fire hazard :confused:

Gossettc68
12-08-2009, 3:52 PM
looks like a ton of fun - but in CA id suspect they'd be leery of the potential fire hazard :confused:

The molecules separate fast and causes a break in the sound barrier, much like a rifle round. It acts like a oxygen robber and puts fires out. There is no flame upon activation and it is not flammable.

Watch the Tannerite video on the front of the Tannerite website www.tannerite.com

Gossettc68
12-08-2009, 3:59 PM
Sutton birdbombs are manufactured and distributed in California. Note that in the penal code there is no exemption for them in the DD rules. Seal bombs are also legal in CA. Once again I do not see an exemption in the DD rules yet they are still an explosive, but still legal. Black powder is an explosive, (Not a low explosive, but classified as a high explosive 1.1D, the same as dynamite, C-4, RDX, etc) yet, if the INTENT is to be used for any bona-fide SPORTING use, then it is LEGAL. If it is made for your personal non-commercial SPORTING use, you are fine. If black powder is made for ANY COMMERCIAL USE, then it is "Magically" regulated as a high explosive 1.1D. This all boils down to MANUFACTURED INTENT! Since Tannerite is labeled in compliance with all Consumer Product laws, and is on file with every government agency as a (Proper Shipping Name): Consumer Commodity ORM-D, it is legal in CA, until the state decides to change or tighten their laws.

The penal code also states that you cannot have a rocket, rocket propelled projectile, or similar device of a diameter greater than 0.60... Yet, members of the general public can build a 10 foot rocket containing explosive material that chemically reacts.

http://www.rocstock.org/rsxxiii_groupc.jpg

Once again there are no exemptions in the Destructive Device rules for rockets.

There is no practical purpose for a dry ice bomb. It all comes down to intent.

If youíre a hobbyist and enjoy building rockets, go for it! Youíre fine. If you like shooting Tannerite Targets at long distances, with your "Evil Guns", you are fine (Unless an anti sees you). If you like shooting your cannons, or launching anvils (Google it) with explosives, you are FINE. All of these things and MANY more are fine as long as it's done for a specific, legitimate purpose.

If youíre being annoyed by a deer eating your flowers and you use a Sutton bird bomb to deter it you are fine. If you are in possession of a parachute rocket that goes 1000 feet into the air, designed for a specific life-saving purpose, you are FINE (in fact, if you own a boat and are on water, you will get busted if DO NOT have an explosive designed as a signal device) Please note: Most of the required life saving devices that contain explosives are labeled as 1.3G (A federally regulated item) however, they are exempt under every law IF used as designed. But if you are being an idiot and capping off parachute flares in the city limits, contrary to their INTENED PURPOSE, you are looking at a criminal prosecution.

With regards to people who get in trouble: There is "Normally" more to the story than others know. This just means that because something is legal to do, (like own a firearm) doesn't mean that you can go shooting on BLM land during a special "Fire Order". The same applies for the use of chainsaws, ATVs, etc.

Charles,

(In a world of idiots where common sense isn't so common)

Deadbolt
12-09-2009, 8:05 AM
The molecules separate fast and causes a break in the sound barrier, much like a rifle round. It acts like a oxygen robber and puts fires out. There is no flame upon activation and it is not flammable.

Watch the Tannerite video on the front of the Tannerite website www.tannerite.com

learn something new everyday!!! thanks :)

diginit
12-09-2009, 8:08 PM
A Quote from a friend of a friend who is an INFORMED authority on this subject:
"Tannerite is not a destructive device. It's not manufactured to be a destructive device, It's intended use is to not be a destructive device...I don't understand how difficult this is to comprehend? When you shoot Tannerite at a shooting range your obviously not using it with criminal intent."

All these so-called law guru's on this forum should know this.
Tannerite is used in conjunction with firearms as use as a shot indicator. It's not a bomb or a freakin grenade it's a shot indicator.

I emailed the Ca DOJ and am hoping for a response that will clear this ignorance off the map soon.

I'll say it again, I understand why the Mods on this site don't care for this product, But to say it is illegal is a distortion of the PC. Like other things we ALL know of. But no one complains about those because we all like them. Sounds kind of hypocritical to me.
We've only been posting Tannerite Vids here for 3 years now. And who knows how many have purchased an MP5-A or A1.

M. Sage
12-09-2009, 8:26 PM
A Quote from a friend of a friend who is an INFORMED authority on this subject:
"Tannerite is not a destructive device. It's not manufactured to be a destructive device, It's intended use is to not be a destructive device...I don't understand how difficult this is to comprehend? When you shoot Tannerite at a shooting range your obviously not using it with criminal intent."

That's referring to federal law, not California law. There is no "intent" clause in the CA DD code. I posted it above, go read it.

All these so-called law guru's on this forum should know this.
Tannerite is used in conjunction with firearms as use as a shot indicator. It's not a bomb or a freakin grenade it's a shot indicator.

So? Put dry ice in a 2 liter bottle and cap it - in CA you just became a felon.

I emailed the Ca DOJ and am hoping for a response that will clear this ignorance off the map soon.

Going to CA DOJ looking to dispel ignorance? That's hilarious.

I'll say it again, I understand why the Mods on this site don't care for this product, But to say it is illegal is a distortion of the PC. Like other things we ALL know of. But no one complains about those because we all like them. Sounds kind of hypocritical to me.
We've only been posting Tannerite Vids here for 3 years now. And who knows how many have purchased an MP5-A or A1.

I love Tannerite. I can't wait to play with more. But what I don't care for is people in CA getting in trouble with the law because they've been misinformed. Read CA's DD code again, intent has nothing to do with what is or isn't a DD.

WeekendWarrior
12-10-2009, 9:22 AM
WWRTW

WeekendWarrior
12-17-2009, 12:25 PM
Updates?

iRIGHTi
01-08-2010, 2:22 PM
time for a group buy and a case discount price? :cool:

i've got one going on @ 1919a4.com right now if anyone is interested. i'm iRIGHTi over there as well, or you can e-mail me at scott@1919bmg.com.

been shooting Tannerite for years. in CA and out. Tannerite has been selling it to CA residents for years. it is an ORM-D product and marked as such when shipped. just like my ammo from CMP. never had a problem as i always use Tannerite as a reactive target as it is intended. of course a LEO can charge you with anything, but Tannerite is not a DD if used as intended in 1/2 or 1lb containers provided and not mixed until ready for use.

just spoke with Dan again today and he and his legal people have gotten with DOJ. he's waiting to hear back from Bill. i'm good to go with it and will be happy to be a test case on my own dime should the need to ever arise. bet it won't. because it's legal!

that 250lb 55 gallon drum that was done at Big Sandy, AZ a couple years ago sure was a sight though! the ground shook like a meteor hit and the pics i took show the shock waves. but like i said, that was AZ and wa shot with a T9 90mm arti gun! here's the video. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LE1i2QVwXlE

WeekendWarrior
01-08-2010, 2:37 PM
Would tannerite be legal if you put a 1lb container inside a fruit like a watermellon or maybe a pumpkin?

EBR Works
01-12-2010, 8:37 PM
Still waiting for definitive answers.

Bill, have you spoken with Mr. Tanner? In post #131 Mr. Tanner indicated that he had sent you a letter to initiate discussion. Please let us know what has been determined.

Knight
01-12-2010, 9:31 PM
Tag'd for future reference. :lurk5:

bwiese
01-13-2010, 3:20 AM
I've let this slide as it's been a low priority.

But we're gonna run this by a CGF lawyer and have him contact Tanner, esp as a Californian that our attorney knows of has been busted for it and incurred large fees.

iRIGHTi
01-13-2010, 10:06 AM
Dan Tanner and his council await the CGF atty's call.

What county of CA did the person the CGF atty knows get into trouble in if I may ask?

Group buy is open if anyone is interested. You can check out the thread over at 1919a4.com.

EBR Works
01-13-2010, 10:15 AM
Dan Tanner and his council await the CGF atty's call.

What county of CA did the person the CGF atty knows get into trouble in if I may ask?

Group buy is open if anyone is interested. You can check out the thread over at 1919a4.com.

I believe is was Los Angeles County.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=3447405&postcount=129

12gauge12
01-13-2010, 1:44 PM
While shooting on some blm land last weekend we talked to a blm ranger about this stuff. He mentioned that separately tannerite is legal. As soon as you mix it together, you will have serious issues with it being legal. On a side note he didn't know CA AW laws and mentioned that the only laws he cared about were federal.

1919_4_ME
01-13-2010, 2:13 PM
Heres the latest version of reactive targets. This one is for .22 rimfire but he is working on one's for centerfire rifles. These would legal anywhere as they are set off by black powder via a shotgun 209 primer. The cannons are loaded with black powder and you simply pull back the piston to set. Once the target is hit it trips the piston to hit the shotgun primer setting off the mini cannon. Its pretty loud and is very safe and is totally re loadable. (no debris will come flying at you). Can't wait till he comes out with the big ones for center fire rifles. Just something else to think about for an alternative...:chris:

This is the rimfire target
<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/DJ-zLGTNPs8&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/DJ-zLGTNPs8&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>


<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/GH-WpOytOv0&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/GH-WpOytOv0&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>


Website:
www.targetcannon.com

diginit
01-13-2010, 8:10 PM
You guys still haven't figured this out? Anything that can damage ones cause is illegal. It will never be clarified by someone who doesn't approve of it. It's like asking an anti to shoot a .50 Cal BMG... Instead of pulling the trigger, They will look for any reason for it to be illegal. Even if it is registered.
Get a clue. Even a blind man can see that some people are just waiting for this thread to die... They just don't understand that it won't happen. This thread has more views than the stickied rules of this page.
CG has already stated that they will not defend anyone that is falsely arrested for this product. But Daniel Tanner will send an attorney to Cal. if it does happen. Makes you wonder.....Doesn't it.
I have no desire to defile the CG reputation, But lets call a diamond a diamond. Not a piece of coal.

WeekendWarrior
01-14-2010, 9:20 AM
Diginit,

I am with you on this one. Mr. Tanner has clearly extended his hand to CGN leadership, who did not bother to respond to him. I think that makes us look really bad, and conveys the wrong message to Mr. Tanner. There are many gunners in CA that love his product, and will continue to be loyal customers. I don't think it's fair for CGN leadership to say we should not use this product while they "look into the matter" and then put it on the back burner completely. Mr. Tanner has offered his lawyers to help anyone who gets in trouble using his product in the way it was designed to be used. I think CGN leadership either need to actively investigate the legality of this product like they said they would, or lift their "ban" until they decide it is time to look into the legality. Not trying to be an S disturber here, just think it's time to get some closure here. And yes, you are right, people like you and me will not let this thread die.

iRIGHTi
01-14-2010, 11:23 AM
I talked to Dan again today and he's still waiting to hear from the CG atty, who knows someone that ran into trouble using his product which IS legal in ALL 50 states. :cool:

To bad this got put on the back burner as it is an issue of concern to many CG'ers and others. All it should take is a phone call, then that atty might just get a fax from Dan proving his products legality in CA! :)

sorensen440
01-14-2010, 11:52 AM
Not trying to stir the pot but this reminds me of a "prince 50 is illegal" thread from a while back.

wildhawker
01-14-2010, 4:48 PM
With all due respect, Tannerite is a chicken**** issue in the field of CA gun rights (that is if you consider explosives as part of the gun rights movement).

Sorry if everyone's been busy on things like Incorporation, amicus briefs to SCOTUS, carry permits, ending the AW ban, hicaps, waiting periods, SHOT outreach and the recent holiday season...

I love all sorts of SBRs and SBSs and DDs that I can't get and/or use in CA - market demand does not a legal product make. I'm not sure Tannerite is illegal, but I'm sure that I'm positively tired of the bull**** surrounding it.

I'd like Mr. Tanner and his attorney to present their argument here at CGN. As always, I'm available by PM or wildhawker at gmail dot com.

-Brandon


Diginit,

I am with you on this one. Mr. Tanner has clearly extended his hand to CGN leadership, who did not bother to respond to him. I think that makes us look really bad, and conveys the wrong message to Mr. Tanner. There are many gunners in CA that love his product, and will continue to be loyal customers. I don't think it's fair for CGN leadership to say we should not use this product while they "look into the matter" and then put it on the back burner completely. Mr. Tanner has offered his lawyers to help anyone who gets in trouble using his product in the way it was designed to be used. I think CGN leadership either need to actively investigate the legality of this product like they said they would, or lift their "ban" until they decide it is time to look into the legality. Not trying to be an S disturber here, just think it's time to get some closure here. And yes, you are right, people like you and me will not let this thread die.

iRIGHTi
01-14-2010, 6:26 PM
well with 18 pages of people talking about it, maybe CG could make it a priority to clarify the issue with a phone call. why TH should Tannerite need to make a case here on a forum. Dan has dotted his I's and crossed his T's. IN ALL 50 STATES with legal council. like he needs to go to every forum and defend his legal product. jeez!

CG does great work. for all of us behind enemy lines. all i'm saying is one guy getting in trouble does not make a product illegal. no details have been provided. no case that i can find of anyone being prosecuted in CA/LA County for using Tannertite, EVER! now if some idiot wants to load a dump truck and touch it off like the numb nut in MN next to a nuke plant...well that's the idiots problem. (BTW, he was only prosecuted/convicted/plead out to being a proby in posession of weapons which he was not supposed to have because he was/is a proby. Not the Tannerite or any type of DD)

Alot of people in CA have & do use Tannerite. May be a chicken sheisse issue to you. Not us. We want facts and are looking to CG to clarify. Pick up the phone and give Dan a call. Like I said, maybe they'll get a fax with a CA DOJ header and resolve the issue.

My $.02


With all due respect, Tannerite is a chickenk**** issue in the field of CA gun rights (that is if you consider explosives as part of the gun rights movement).

Sorry if everyone's been busy on things like Incorporation, amicus briefs to SCOTUS, carry permits, ending the AW ban, hicaps, waiting periods, SHOT outreach and the recent holiday season...

I love all sorts of SBRs and SBSs and DDs that I can't get and/or use in CA - market demand does not a legal product make. I'm not sure Tannerite is illegal, but I'm sure that I'm positively tired of the bull**** surrounding it.

I'd like Mr. Tanner and his attorney to present their argument here at CGN. As always, I'm available by PM or wildhawker at gmail dot com.

-Brandon

Napalm Bulldog
01-14-2010, 6:36 PM
If its not a big deal why havent I seen anyone shoot this stuff at ranges? Just wondering.

wildhawker
01-14-2010, 6:46 PM
You're right. Buy the crap and do what you will. If you don't like people saying it's possibly not legal, don't enter into the conversation. Neither Calguns or CGF is obligated to assuage your fears or provide analysis.

I'm positive this issue is being looked at. In the meantime, do what you want; we're all big boys and girls. You're obviously confident that it's legal so I'm not exactly sure why this is even an issue for you.

If Dan wants to make a case to skeptics he may come here and present his argument. Or, alternatively, he can do the opposite and - through his vocal customer base - stand back and watch while everyone else pays for legal analysis so he (only) can profit from it. *I'm* not the one trying to sell Tannerite. Maybe Dan Tanner should come over and make his pitch; it's not my job (or that of CGN or CGF) to do it for him. It's Dan's product, Dan's name and Dan's *** - if he doesn't have the fortitude to make his own case then I don't think it's a product I'd be interested in purchasing.

ETA: One thing to note: every single one of us have *regular jobs* that pay the bills. Some of us put another 20-60 hours/week into pro bono gun rights work. If you think that 18 pages of people yakking, jabbing and *****ing somehow makes this issue float to the top of our priority list you need to rethink how the world works.

well with 18 pages of people talking about it, maybe CG could make it a priority to clarify the issue with a phone call. why TH should Tannerite need to make a case here on a forum. Dan has dotted his I's and crossed his T's. IN ALL 50 STATES with legal council. like he needs to go to every forum and defend his legal product. jeez!

CG does great work. for all of us behind enemy lines. all i'm saying is one guy getting in trouble does not make a product illegal. no details have been provided. no case that i can find of anyone being prosecuted in CA/LA County for using Tannertite, EVER! now if some idiot wants to load a dump truck and touch it off like the numb nut in MN next to a nuke plant...well that's the idiots problem. (BTW, he was only prosecuted/convicted/plead out to being a proby in posession of weapons which he was not supposed to have because he was/is a proby. Not the Tannerite or any type of DD)

Alot of people in CA have & do use Tannerite. May be a chicken sheisse issue to you. Not us. We want facts and are looking to CG to clarify. Pick up the phone and give Dan a call. Like I said, maybe they'll get a fax with a CA DOJ header and resolve the issue.

My $.02

WeekendWarrior
01-15-2010, 8:48 AM
Brandon,

Mr. Tanner already sent information to Bill and got NO response from him over a month ago... He even posted in this very thread. This issue does not require a lot of attention to be resolved, unlike many other issues facing gun owners as you mentioned, like Incorporation. The reason we want a resolution is leadership at CGN said do not use this product, but then failed to follow up on it like they said they would. Out of respect for Calguns I am abstaining from using tannerite until a conclusive decision is made. All we need to do is get the CGN lawyer in touch with Mr. Tanner's and we should be good to go.

Originally Posted by Gossettc68 View Post
Mr. Gossett,

Please keep me in the loop regarding the thread on CalGuns. I don’t have time to search the net during work hours for obvious reasons and I am on conference with Asia after 6pm regarding importing, but a Google alert popped up on my business email and it appears that the thread is continuing.

I sent a letter to Mr Bill Wiese over a month ago, including all of my personal information, wishing to review his ideas on legalities of Tannerite, and have offered the assistance of my own attorneys free of charge, and I have never received a response from him in any form.

Please assure the folks on the forum that my service to customers has not been limited to ‘concern’. I have helped every customer who has ever been cited for using Tannerite as a shot indicator, as prescribed, by supplying them with my law firms who specialize in this field of expertise….in every state. I do this free of charge. A company couldn’t expect repeat business if they didn’t stand behind their product and claims. By helping customers out of legal binds, it not only helps develop precedence on the legal end and education within the industry and governing agencies, but it’s simply the right thing to do.

Not being a member of Calguns, and not having time to monitor internet threads, I would appreciate it if you or anyone else would notify the company if there is a comment made that should be brought to our attention.

Cordially,
Dan J. Tanner
Tannerite Company
36366 Valley Rd
Pleasant Hill OR 97455
877-744-1406

As you can see, Mr. Tanner has been reaching out to us regarding this issue. He runs a nationwide corporation, and Im sure does not have time to defend the legality of his product in every thread on every gun forum that pops up on the internet. He has already made a great effort by coming here to post what he has and has clearly extended a helping hand here.

Brandon, dont get me wrong, we all greatly appreciate what the good people at Calguns are doing for shooter's rights, and the time and effort they expend doing this. As I mentioned before, I will go with the general direction of the leadership on tis forum because I feel that we all share similar goals, and if Bill or anyone else thinks that shooting tannerite could hurt those goals, I am willing to abstain. But it sounds like the decision to internally police tannerite was made because 1 person got in trouble for it, and he had a homemade 25lb bag of it at the time... this is not the same as shooting the official 1lb or 1/2lb targets in their containers.

WeekendWarrior
01-15-2010, 8:57 AM
If its not a big deal why havent I seen anyone shoot this stuff at ranges? Just wondering.

I think its because it would get really obnoxious if tannerite was constantly going off at public/private ranges, especially for people doing precision shooting etc (dust clouds, distractions, obscured targets, etc.). Also it might be a noise issue. Go to any shoot on BLM land and everyone is shooting this stuff.

wildhawker
01-15-2010, 4:10 PM
It's being addressed, I can promise you that. When we have some information it will be passed along.

The fact that Tanner sells product all over the place is not my problem. Such is the nature of sales. It's incumbent upon the seller to provide adequate information to his customers. If customers would like their own legal analysis on their timeframe they can absolutely contact Jason Davis or Chuck Michel who I'm sure would be happy to provide advice for a nominal fee.


-Brandon

Brandon,

Mr. Tanner already sent information to Bill and got NO response from him over a month ago... He even posted in this very thread. This issue does not require a lot of attention to be resolved, unlike many other issues facing gun owners as you mentioned, like Incorporation. The reason we want a resolution is leadership at CGN said do not use this product, but then failed to follow up on it like they said they would. Out of respect for Calguns I am abstaining from using tannerite until a conclusive decision is made. All we need to do is get the CGN lawyer in touch with Mr. Tanner's and we should be good to go.



As you can see, Mr. Tanner has been reaching out to us regarding this issue. He runs a nationwide corporation, and Im sure does not have time to defend the legality of his product in every thread on every gun forum that pops up on the internet. He has already made a great effort by coming here to post what he has and has clearly extended a helping hand here.

Brandon, dont get me wrong, we all greatly appreciate what the good people at Calguns are doing for shooter's rights, and the time and effort they expend doing this. As I mentioned before, I will go with the general direction of the leadership on tis forum because I feel that we all share similar goals, and if Bill or anyone else thinks that shooting tannerite could hurt those goals, I am willing to abstain. But it sounds like the decision to internally police tannerite was made because 1 person got in trouble for it, and he had a homemade 25lb bag of it at the time... this is not the same as shooting the official 1lb or 1/2lb targets in their containers.

diginit
01-15-2010, 8:05 PM
If its not a big deal why havent I seen anyone shoot this stuff at ranges? Just wondering.

Because ranges are in or near towns and it violates there noise ordinance.
That's why most HP rifle lanes are nearer the sound wall than the pistol lanes.

Like I have said before, I understand CG's point of view, And appreciate what they are doing. But this situation sounds too much like someone that doesn't like a black rifle because it looks too scary. :chris:

Full Clip
01-15-2010, 11:51 PM
I'm not really sure why this thread has become so antagonistic, but perhaps I just don't understand the personal motivations that are driving it.

Nobody needs the blessing of Calguns to do business in CA. Hell, nobody needs the DOJ's blessing. They just have to be within the law. If Tanner and his lawyers are confident in their legal status, then what's the issue? If you trust them, go stock up on all Tanner's wares and have a "blast."

As for what Calguns should be addressing with its limited resources, I agree that this should be a back-burner issue at best until we have our full 2nd A rights ó*at least as they are recognized by most "free" states.

Swatguy10_15
01-15-2010, 11:57 PM
This shouldnt really be an issue at all. I have an idea. Lets make sure that all resources are geared toward keeping the firearms that you shoot tannerite WITH.Then well worry about what we can shoot at. Maybe Im being picky but.."Well hey we can shoot tannerite!"..Got nothing decent to shoot it with,but we can shoot tannerite!

EBR Works
01-28-2010, 3:10 PM
I just had this email exchange with Daniel Tanner:

I signed up for the Tannerite group buy that iRighti organized. I want to order your product, but there remains a serious question as to whether your product is actually legal in California since our laws here are very complex and restrictive. iRighti said that you have a letter of approval from the California DOJ. If that is so and I can get a copy of the letter, I will place the order. There are many others on the CalGuns forum that would buy Tannerite if the California DOJ has actually approved it. There apparently was discussion of someone being prosecuted for possession of the unmixed Tannerite components in Los Angeles County. This has the CalGuns community spooked. Thanks very much.

And Daniel's response:

The CA DOJ has told our lawyers that they canít find anything particularly illegal with Tannerite (if used as prescribed) but they strongly discourage its use. We have shipped to CA for 13 years, and the only customers that we know of who were ever cited, called us and we paid for their lawyers and got them off scott free. This mystery person that you mentionedÖ.l have heard of it from others, but no one will ever mention a name or citation number. My suspicion is that IF it even happened to begin with, there were extenuating circumstances. Buy if you wish, or not.. we will let everyone know if/when Tannerite is outlawed in CA.
Cordially,
Daniel@Tannerite

diginit
02-08-2010, 8:34 PM
Impacto beat me to it. I just got the same response from the DOJ. I already knew Daniel's response. Too bad that the CG staff wouldn't take 5 min. to do that for it's members. Defending our rights to legal sporting....But only if they like it. Couldn't even admit to making a mistake. Just let the thread die.
Just goes to show, If someone is anti something.....They won't help or even try to understand.
I rest my case. And, sad to say, have lost most of my respect....This thread simply stated that some Cal Gunners needed help to clarify legality of the use of a product. All we got is the usual bureaucratic run around and PM's from the staff and finally had to clarify it for ourselves.
Damned Shame.

CHS
02-08-2010, 9:24 PM
Impacto beat me to it. I just got the same response from the DOJ.

I rest my case.

So... You've got a ruling letter from the DoJ?

Or just a friendly chat on the phone from some random BOF employee?

Until you post a ruling letter, your anecdote doesn't mean jack or squat.

chickenfried
02-08-2010, 9:31 PM
You mean the same outdoor ranges that won't let you rapid fire or put up targets that look vaguely human. :p

If its not a big deal why havent I seen anyone shoot this stuff at ranges? Just wondering.

diginit
03-04-2010, 8:00 PM
Avioding the issue dosn't solve anything. If CG needs a couple bucks to make a phone call, I'll gladly make a donation.

dav
03-05-2010, 2:47 PM
diginit, your similarity to a troll is really draggin the quality of this thread down.

IN CALIFORNIA, nothing is ever "legal". Some things are "illegal". You will NEVER prove any product is legal. Any DA who feels like it can charge you with anything they like. And they do. All the time.

Will you get off? Maybe, but not until trouble and money have been expended. Also, you might not get off. Many doing legal things end up incarcerated.

Tannerite may not be illegal. You cannot, however, equate that with being legal.

Now shutup already.
.

iRIGHTi
03-05-2010, 5:41 PM
everyone rolls by their own interpretation of our behind enemy lines laws. i have for 13 years and will continue to use tannerite as it is intended as a target hit indicator. i'm not out blowing up cars and dumptrucks next to nuke plants like the idiots on youidiottube. use it as intended as Dan said below and you should not have a problem. if you do let them know. they stand behind their product 100% if it is used as intended.

BTW: THX to Chuck Michel for the new business cards, magnets, and pens I received today. If I ever do have a problem, in any way firearmswise, my mouth is shut and I know who I'm calling because I'm doing nothing wrong! :cool:

the tannerite group buy closed along time ago. those who got in, great. those who didn't, maybe next time. :sleeping:

edit: forgot - not cool DAV. comment. don't tell others to shutup. remember the 2nd is after the 1st for a reason!

scfast
03-14-2010, 11:28 AM
diginit, your similarity to a troll is really draggin the quality of this thread down.

Now shutup already.
.Man all this bs from grown men.this thread has finally made me loose the last bit of respect i had for CALGUNS and GGF and the people who post here.Im out

Bagelthief
03-14-2010, 3:12 PM
diginit, your similarity to a troll is really draggin the quality of this thread down.

IN CALIFORNIA, nothing is ever "legal". Some things are "illegal". You will NEVER prove any product is legal. Any DA who feels like it can charge you with anything they like. And they do. All the time.

Will you get off? Maybe, but not until trouble and money have been expended. Also, you might not get off. Many doing legal things end up incarcerated.

Tannerite may not be illegal. You cannot, however, equate that with being legal.

Now shutup already.
.

Wow...your...a jerk!

Bagelthief
03-14-2010, 3:16 PM
BTW, does someone have Mr. Tannerites web site? I want to buy some before I take out my rifle...

Ghostwheel
03-14-2010, 3:33 PM
diginit, your similarity to a troll is really draggin the quality of this thread down.

IN CALIFORNIA, nothing is ever "legal". Some things are "illegal". You will NEVER prove any product is legal.


The laws of United States of America generally prescribe to the principle "Everything which is not forbidden is allowed".

As an example, I'd like to point you to the Open Carry laws in California. The law forbids carrying a concealed weapon without a license, and if forbids carrying an unconcealed loaded weapon. Because the law does not explicitly forbid the carrying of an unloaded unconcealed firearm, it is legal. This position has been defended several times in court, demonstrating that something not explicitly described in law can in fact be proven 'legal'.

This one example alone demonstrates that your understanding of California law is flawed, and that you may wish to research your position a little more thoroughly.

Any DA who feels like it can charge you with anything they like. And they do. All the time.

Will you get off? Maybe, but not until trouble and money have been expended. Also, you might not get off. Many doing legal things end up incarcerated.


I agree with the statement that a DA can charge you with anything they want, but I disagree with your conclusion that the DA alone can make something illegal. The legislature writes the laws, not the DA.


Tannerite may not be illegal. You cannot, however, equate that with being legal.

Please see my above notes. If California, and the rest of the United States, did not adhere to the principle of "Everything which is not forbidden is allowed" then you wouldn't be able to have a pistol gripped semi-auto rifle with a magazine locked in place with a 'bullet button'. Take a good look at the CalGuns Assault Rifle Identification Flowchart (http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf). The whole point of that flowchart is to point out what has been expressly listed as illegal, because whatever is not expressly listed as illegal IS LEGAL and is defendable in court.


Now shutup already.


I believe this is in violation of the code of behavior for members of this site. You owe diginit an apology.

-Chris

Ghostwheel
03-14-2010, 3:35 PM
BTW, does someone have Mr. Tannerites web site? I want to buy some before I take out my rifle...

https://www.tannerite.com/

Ships via UPS right to your door.

-Chris

CHS
03-14-2010, 3:35 PM
BTW, does someone have Mr. Tannerites web site? I want to buy some before I take out my rifle...

There's this neat new site out there called Google. Look it up.

Ghostwheel
03-14-2010, 3:38 PM
There's this neat new site out there called Google. Look it up.

Dude... There is an even better site for smacking someone down for not doing their own googling, if that is your thing. Click this link to see. (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Tannerite&l=1) :)

-Chris

Bagelthief
03-14-2010, 4:09 PM
There's this neat new site out there called Google. Look it up.

For your information, I did google "Mr tannerite", and didnt get any hits. Yes I know I could have googled "tannerite" and get hits for "A" website that sells tannerite, but I wanted Mr. Tannerites specific site because he will provide me with a lawyer in case some BS goes down.

Seriously, there are some F***ing A holes on this site. Thankfully there are also some pretty cool cats too, IE Ghostwheel, which is why I choose to stay. Thanks for the info friend!

iRIGHTi
03-14-2010, 4:30 PM
WTH? stop the BS guys. buy it or don't buy it. want info? www.tannerite.com
ph: 877-744-1406
Talk to Dan Tanner - Inventor/Owner/Patent Holder.
then buy it if you want or don't.

jeez! i wanna go shooting! is it 3/20 yet? tick tick tick... :cool2:

Gossettc68
03-29-2010, 12:09 PM
The thousands of California state cops, firemen, feds and prosecutors who purchase Tannerite binary targets agree with DanÖ..that anyone who has a problem with this LEGAL product is either 1. A pansy, or 2. A queer.

Man up and assert your rights and have little fun instead of quivering under the blankets of fear.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tisT80ZUllY

Fot
03-29-2010, 12:21 PM
:grouphug:

Ghostwheel
03-29-2010, 12:37 PM
The thousands of California state cops, firemen, feds and prosecutors who purchase Tannerite binary targets agree with DanÖ..that anyone who has a problem with this LEGAL product is either 1. A pansy, or 2. A queer.

Man up and assert your rights and have little fun instead of quivering under the blankets of fear.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tisT80ZUllY

As one of the people who drive three hours to Panoche to shoot lawn gnomes stuffed with tannerite, I'd like to say that I am offended by your post. Was a juvenile attack on someone's sexuality really necessary or appropriate? Is this a forum for ALL gun owners, or just the straight ones?

It seems that this thread has long since let the original topic, which was the legality of shooting tannerite, and entered into the realm of off-topic attacks. Is there any chance the moderators would consider closing this thread?

-Chris

iRIGHTi
03-29-2010, 2:35 PM
http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/1340/nuke00.gif (http://img651.imageshack.us/i/nuke00.gif/) :cool:

great video of the Big Sandy Shoot in AZ. Tons of safe fun and lots of big boom tannerite! Gunny Ermey too! :cool2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NhluTb0Pzo&NR=1

before and after (AZ style)

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/1885/mgs100626.th.jpg (http://img260.imageshack.us/i/mgs100626.jpg/)
http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/8943/mgs100627.th.jpg (http://img229.imageshack.us/i/mgs100627.jpg/)

gunn
04-02-2010, 3:08 PM
Q: Has anyone who wants to shoot tannerite sent a letter to the CalDOJ specifically asking for a ruling letter as to if a binary explosive as a "reactive target" is illegal as a destructive device or not?

If so, what was their response (if any?).
-g

L4D
04-02-2010, 5:01 PM
http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/1340/nuke00.gif (http://img651.imageshack.us/i/nuke00.gif/) :cool:

great video of the Big Sandy Shoot in AZ. Tons of safe fun and lots of big boom tannerite! Gunny Ermey too! :cool2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NhluTb0Pzo&NR=1

before and after (AZ style)

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/1885/mgs100626.th.jpg (http://img260.imageshack.us/i/mgs100626.jpg/)
http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/8943/mgs100627.th.jpg (http://img229.imageshack.us/i/mgs100627.jpg/)


Damn!!!!
That Youtube video will soon be banned for viewing in CA due bad assedness........