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bolantej
09-29-2009, 11:48 PM
Okay, shot my new AR today and my mags would occasionally fall out when I fired the gun, and the next round would not load.

The day before, after I shot it without any problems, I tightened the bullet button aluminum nut a bit more than it was originally. (Could this be the culprit?)

I tightened it because when I would insert a tool to release the mag, the opposite side of the mag catch would go too far out and spin, forcing me to straighten it and place it into it's slot in the lower receiver. I guess I was just pushing it too far in.



I've since unscrewed the aluminum nut to make it flush with the outside of the hole in the BB, as it was previously.

I'm thinking that by tightening the aluminum nut, it prevents the mag catch from going out enough to properly grab the notch on the magazine.

Any thoughts?

These are p-mag 10/30s in a Spike's lower.

Thanks!
_jasonosaj_

NeoWeird
09-29-2009, 11:56 PM
I'll take a gamble and bet if you either (a) download the magazine a bit so it only has 8 or 9 rounds in it or (b) give the magazine a firm smack when you put it in the gun you wouldn't have a problem.

I'd bet the problem is when the magazine is fully loaded, the spring tension is so tight that when you push the magazine into the gun, and the cartridges hit the bottom of the carrier, you're not fully overcoming the tension of the spring. The magazine catch however is putting lateral tension against the magazine so it doesn't fall out right away. The gun fires, vibrates, gets hit, etc and the magazine catch loses it's tension hold on the magazine and the magazine falls out.

It's not a 'problem' or 'defect', it's just the devil in the design. Something that you learn and train to avoid rather than actually fixing.

bolantej
09-30-2009, 12:01 AM
Thanks for the advice. I did smack it, but perhaps I will try again after loosening the nut and then if it doesn't help I'll download. I would imagine pinning the mags to make them compliant can be a hard skill to perfect.

NeoWeird
09-30-2009, 12:22 AM
Just so you know, the REAL Bullet Button is designed so you use a screwdriver, and when the screwdriver bottoms out against the stud it is to depth. If it is turn in so it's flush with the top, not only is that NOT installed properly, but it could potentially be illegal. All the DA would need to do is get a small framed women to crame her finger tip into the hole just enough to drop the mag and it would be easily argued that you had an illegal weapon.

The BB is designed the way it is on purpose. Screw the nut all the way in until the screwdriver bottoms out. If your mag catch is coming out of the retaining recess in the receiver, then you may have so little of spring tension that the magazine could work it's way out while you're using it.

So bringing the nut out further will probably only exasterbate your problem. The reason it MAY have worked before is because you may have loosened it to the point that the spring tension on the magazine release was not as tight as it should be. Since it is now under less load, it is easier to deflect open and so it would require less force to seat a magazine. Again though, this means it would require less force to jar the mag catch open and drop the magazine.

So screw the nut in, download a round or two, and give the magazine a firm smack to seat it. Once it is reliably staying in there, then you can start increasing the amount of rounds while your gun wears in and your muscle memory starts learning what it takes to get a full magazine to seat properly.

bolantej
09-30-2009, 12:31 AM
Thank you Sir for taking the time to re-educate me. I seem to have misplaced my BB instructions, so I appreciate your help. The BB is now correctly installed as you've described.

We'll see how the next sessioon goes. :)

dieselpower
09-30-2009, 8:43 PM
Just so you know, the REAL Bullet Button is designed so you use a screwdriver, and when the screwdriver bottoms out against the stud it is to depth. If it is turn in so it's flush with the top, not only is that NOT installed properly, but it could potentially be illegal. All the DA would need to do is get a small framed women to crame her finger tip into the hole just enough to drop the mag and it would be easily argued that you had an illegal weapon.
The BB is designed the way it is on purpose. Screw the nut all the way in until the screwdriver bottoms out. If your mag catch is coming out of the retaining recess in the receiver, then you may have so little of spring tension that the magazine could work it's way out while you're using it.

So bringing the nut out further will probably only exasterbate your problem. The reason it MAY have worked before is because you may have loosened it to the point that the spring tension on the magazine release was not as tight as it should be. Since it is now under less load, it is easier to deflect open and so it would require less force to seat a magazine. Again though, this means it would require less force to jar the mag catch open and drop the magazine.

So screw the nut in, download a round or two, and give the magazine a firm smack to seat it. Once it is reliably staying in there, then you can start increasing the amount of rounds while your gun wears in and your muscle memory starts learning what it takes to get a full magazine to seat properly.

Sorry man...that's FUD. I can grow a fingernail and shave it to fit into any BB now. That part has nothing to do with spring tension, or at least not on the BBs I have used. Its the long throw of the BB that allows you to push the magazine catch lever out of the other side. The OP is correct, he needed to screw the nut in farther. The magazine catch didn't have enough tension on it and the vibration was causing the lever to jump and the mag would drop out that was correct.

missiontrails
09-30-2009, 9:03 PM
Sorry man...that's FUD. I can grow a fingernail and shave it to fit into any BB now. That part has nothing to do with spring tension, or at least not on the BBs I have used. Its the long throw of the BB that allows you to push the magazine catch lever out of the other side. The OP is correct, he needed to screw the nut in farther. The magazine catch didn't have enough tension on it and the vibration was causing the lever to jump and the mag would drop out that was correct.

Gonna have to agree with you on this. OP, get a REAL BB TOOL, and give the nut another turn. BTW, some mags will have play in the magwell, my Fusil mags for example, but the catch should still keep them in there.

dfletcher
09-30-2009, 9:21 PM
I found that the aluminium tool - the one with the two teeth, looks lik a Smith screwdriver without the tip - really screws the BB nut down as far as possible and allows for as much spring pressure as possible. I forget who sells/makes them, but I have about 5 of the things, always carry one inside the PG.

bolantej
09-30-2009, 9:42 PM
Well, while away from the computer, I removed the BB, gave the BB spring a little stretch and tightened the screw. The mag catch no longer comes out of it's recess and it feels snug when I press it in.

Blast off on Friday. I'll write again if it's still an issue after trying all the above suggestions. Thanks everyone!!!

-Jason

dieselpower
09-30-2009, 9:48 PM
I also have friday off, if you are in the Socal area around ventura Shooters lanes are on me. I got to zero my red dot again, and I just got the Magpul ACS and need to check it out.

gemini1
09-30-2009, 10:05 PM
You need to tighten the bb nut all the way in. Look inside the magwell and test your bb mag release. When you push the mag release using a small screw driver or tip of the bullet, check and see if the notch that holds a mag is pushed out just enough to drop the mag then you're gtg. You need to have a freelock tool and make sure you check the bb nut does not get loosen up. Or apply a little blue locktite on the nut, to make sure it stays in place.

sspen003
09-30-2009, 10:11 PM
Get a RAD-Lock. They are easy to install and use.

Same thing happened to me. I had some faulty C-product mags that would only hold 8-9 rounds. If I put ten in they either wouldnt fit or the gun wouldnt fire. Big blow to my ego bc it was the first time I shot my AR, but then I found it to be the Mags

bolantej
09-30-2009, 10:23 PM
I also have friday off, if you are in the Socal area around ventura Shooters lanes are on me. I got to zero my red dot again, and I just got the Magpul ACS and need to check it out.

Much appreciated but I'm in the capital of our loverly state.

shookatash
09-30-2009, 10:31 PM
Get a RAD-Lock. They are easy to install and use.

Same thing happened to me. I had some faulty C-product mags that would only hold 8-9 rounds. If I put ten in they either wouldnt fit or the gun wouldnt fire. Big blow to my ego bc it was the first time I shot my AR, but then I found it to be the Mags

same here. 10/10s and 10/20s would require me to slam it in with a closed bcg.

evollep3
09-30-2009, 10:48 PM
Sorry man...that's FUD. I can grow a fingernail and shave it to fit into any BB now. That part has nothing to do with spring tension, or at least not on the BBs I have used. Its the long throw of the BB that allows you to push the magazine catch lever out of the other side. The OP is correct, he needed to screw the nut in farther. The magazine catch didn't have enough tension on it and the vibration was causing the lever to jump and the mag would drop out that was correct.

dont tighten it too much if you do you will take all the slack out of it and neo is correct try loading it with 9 rounds only who did the coversion on the pmag

evollep3
09-30-2009, 10:52 PM
Sorry man...that's FUD. I can grow a fingernail and shave it to fit into any BB now. That part has nothing to do with spring tension, or at least not on the BBs I have used. Its the long throw of the BB that allows you to push the magazine catch lever out of the other side. The OP is correct, he needed to screw the nut in farther. The magazine catch didn't have enough tension on it and the vibration was causing the lever to jump and the mag would drop out that was correct.

not completely FUD he does have a point when people were buying the Free lock inserts they would install them to a point where the avg person can almost use their pinky nail to drop the mag

another words nails either from a male or female = not a tool

bolantej
09-30-2009, 11:14 PM
I didn't over tighten it so we'll just see how it runs next session.

the mags were pinned by midwestpx dealer.

evollep3
10-01-2009, 10:55 AM
I didn't over tighten it so we'll just see how it runs next session.

the mags were pinned by midwestpx dealer.

were they with the rivets? if so than its more than likely the lack of slack in the mag to allow the bolt to fit properly or the follower or spring is catching on the rivet which could be the reason for the fail to chamber the next round if you want i can let you borrow one of mines to try out

eaglemike
10-01-2009, 11:17 AM
Polymer mag's will not fully seat in a Kaiser lower I built........ works fine with metal mag's, C products, etc....

all the best,
Mike

WeekendWarrior
10-01-2009, 12:01 PM
WWRTW

dchang0
10-01-2009, 4:32 PM
same here. 10/10s and 10/20s would require me to slam it in with a closed bcg.

It's terrible--the manufacturers of 10-rnd kits could actually do it right, but they're so afraid of accidentally creating 11-rnd mags that they don't try to go for 10.5-rnds like they should. It's not like it's hard to make a 10.5-rnd mag that fits 10 rounds and also has room for a closed bolt...

bolantej
10-01-2009, 4:51 PM
I'm thinking of making block inserts so they're 10.5 rounders and do away with the rivets altogether.

evollep3
10-01-2009, 4:53 PM
i have a few you can measure off of if you need

CHS
10-01-2009, 5:41 PM
What LPK did you use?

Some of the cheaper LPK's use crappy out-of-spec mag catches with a "pillow-shaped" face. That face is not made up of the nice crisp 90-degree angles that a true in-spec catch should look like (with a 45-degree bottom chamfer).

These catches are notoriously bad at holding in mags properly, especially PMAG's.

gemini1
10-01-2009, 8:21 PM
Get a promag 10/20 and see how it works on your AR. I got a couple from NorCalBRG.com and they both work fine on mine. Never had the chance to reconfigure the 20s and 30s pmags I bought since those two promags are enough for me at the range.

tvfreakarms
10-05-2009, 1:15 AM
When I first shot my ar, I had FTL on all the mags except my 10rd mag. I had a 10/30 pmag w/rivets, 2 c products 10/20 mag and 1 c product 10rd. For some reason when I put the 10rd in, it loaded just fine. And ever since then I had no FTL problems after that. Can't explain why it happen but hopefully my next trip to the range, it i won't have the same problem.

kermit315
10-05-2009, 5:40 AM
Sorry man...that's FUD. I can grow a fingernail and shave it to fit into any BB now. That part has nothing to do with spring tension, or at least not on the BBs I have used. Its the long throw of the BB that allows you to push the magazine catch lever out of the other side. The OP is correct, he needed to screw the nut in farther. The magazine catch didn't have enough tension on it and the vibration was causing the lever to jump and the mag would drop out that was correct.

So, doing that, exactly which tool were you using? If you are dropping mags without tools on a BB equipped rifle, its not a fixed mag anymore, and there is definitely potential to be charged. Not so much fud as you might think. While not normally an issue, if you can drop the mag without tools, no matter how much of a pain it might be, you do not have a fixed mag rifle.

dieselpower
10-05-2009, 1:41 PM
So, doing that, exactly which tool were you using? If you are dropping mags without tools on a BB equipped rifle, its not a fixed mag anymore, and there is definitely potential to be charged. Not so much fud as you might think. While not normally an issue, if you can drop the mag without tools, no matter how much of a pain it might be, you do not have a fixed mag rifle.


Kermit, the whole point is FUD. I can right now, drop any magazine in an AR15 in California that uses a BB with a trimmed fingernail. That doesn't make the BB illegal. The BB is designed to only allow a tool to be used to withdraw the magazine from the weapon. The .gov can not use a set of strange bodily parts to over come that design of the BB.

IF THEY CAN, ALL BB AR15s are NOW illegal.

So the whole point of a DA finding some tiny "little person" to go to court to show the BB can be operated with a finger is complete and total FUD.

Vinz
10-05-2009, 2:16 PM
thats a strong finger nail...
you might be on to something, a nail is not a tool.
vinz

kermit315
10-05-2009, 3:00 PM
Kermit, the whole point is FUD. I can right now, drop any magazine in an AR15 in California that uses a BB with a trimmed fingernail. That doesn't make the BB illegal. The BB is designed to only allow a tool to be used to withdraw the magazine from the weapon. The .gov can not use a set of strange bodily parts to over come that design of the BB.

IF THEY CAN, ALL BB AR15s are NOW illegal.

So the whole point of a DA finding some tiny "little person" to go to court to show the BB can be operated with a finger is complete and total FUD.

The following definitions apply to terms used in the identification of assault weapons pursuant to Penal Code section 12276.1:
(a) "detachable magazine" means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool. Ammunition feeding device includes any belted or linked ammunition, but does not include clips, en bloc clips, or stripper clips that load cartridges into the magazine.

Show me where in any of the PC, it says a fingernail is a tool. Until then, that paragraph above comes into play.

You might not like it, but thats the way it is.

Merc1138
10-05-2009, 3:15 PM
Show me where in any of the PC, it says a fingernail is a tool. Until then, that paragraph above comes into play.


Show me the PC where it says that it isn't? Carving your fingernail into a specific shape to do something, could be considered turning it into a tool. However, that would require having long gross fingernails in a very odd shape. Take your FUD elsewhere please.

kermit315
10-05-2009, 5:23 PM
Show me the PC where it says that it isn't? Carving your fingernail into a specific shape to do something, could be considered turning it into a tool. However, that would require having long gross fingernails in a very odd shape. Take your FUD elsewhere please.

I am thinking that since its a freaking part of your body its not a tool. Find ANYTHING that says otherwise. Anything. You cant.

Take your own advice.

ETA: If you can find me a credible source saying that a living part of your body, still attached, is by any definition a tool, I will apologize to all in this thread for stating otherwise. With your logic, your finger is a tool. It doesnt pass muster. Until you can cite a credible source, if you are dropping magazines with your fingernail, as far as I am concerned, you are setting yourself up for an AW charge if dealing with a non registered AR pattern rifle.

ETA2: If you really want to continue to debate this, start a thread in 2A and lets stop threadjacking this one. OP, I apologize for jacking your thread.

Merc1138
10-05-2009, 5:32 PM
ETA: If you can find me a credible source saying that a living part of your body, still attached, is by any definition a tool, I will apologize to all in this thread for stating otherwise.

Hmm, we're talking about fingernails.

And yes, I did bold that specific portion of the text for a reason, guess what that reason is? Come on, you've got to have figured it out by now. Fine, I'll explain.

Your fingernails are not living tissue. This is something covered in basic Biology. Additionally, an anthropologist could easily claim that the shaping of something such as a fingernail to accomplish a basic task(pushing something inside of a hole) would easily be considered making a tool by caveman standards. Even using today's standards, I could point out the "coke-nail", which is in essence, a fingernail made into a tool.

No, I'm not going to ask that you apologize for your glaring error regarding basic biology, just stop spreading silly FUD.

edit: And not only have I pointed out your error, explained how an attached fingernail can be explained to be a tool, I forgot to point out that not every calgunner is a man, and I'm sure at least one of the ladies here has a set of or at some point in time has glued on some fake fingernails...

Wait... omg, I just thought of the perfect thing to market to bb equipped EBR owners in california... press on BB tool nails! Hahahaha, at least your post made me entertain myself with that thought.

kermit315
10-05-2009, 5:51 PM
Hmm, we're talking about fingernails.

And yes, I did bold that specific portion of the text for a reason, guess what that reason is? Come on, you've got to have figured it out by now. Fine, I'll explain.

Your fingernails are not living tissue. This is something covered in basic Biology. Additionally, an anthropologist could easily claim that the shaping of something such as a fingernail to accomplish a basic task(pushing something inside of a hole) would easily be considered making a tool by caveman standards. Even using today's standards, I could point out the "coke-nail", which is in essence, a fingernail made into a tool.

No, I'm not going to ask that you apologize for your glaring error regarding basic biology, just stop spreading silly FUD.

edit: And not only have I pointed out your error, explained how an attached fingernail can be explained to be a tool, I forgot to point out that not every calgunner is a man, and I'm sure at least one of the ladies here has a set of or at some point in time has glued on some fake fingernails...

Wait... omg, I just thought of the perfect thing to market to bb equipped EBR owners in california... press on BB tool nails! Hahahaha, at least your post made me entertain myself with that thought.

Ok, you got me. Fingernails are no longer living. However, they are attatched to living tissue on your body naturally. I wont apologize because you didnt cite any credible source saying that a fingernail is a tool, vice a natural part of the human body, just as hair is.

I am going to 2A and starting a thread re: fingernails as tools so this thread isnt threadjacked any further. Join or dont, I dont care. But stop trying to back up your baseless argument by screaming "FUD".

Merc1138
10-05-2009, 5:59 PM
My baseless argument? Not only did I point out basic biology, but anthropology as well. Sounds like 2 well established sciences if you ask me. Also, there's nothing to state in any PC how a tool attached to your body is relevant. If I want to superglue something to the end of my finger, then so be it. Go ahead and post in the 2a section, I'll call you out on your poor understanding of modern science there as well, also your lack of ability to explain where you came up with the idea that the ATF, CA DOJ, or any other agency has defined a point in any case law or legislation what means of attachment can be considered "natural" OR at what point something is an appendage of the human body and not a tool.

So either backup your baseless arguments with at least a sensible train of thought, or stop spreading FUD.

evollep3
10-05-2009, 6:01 PM
Ok, you got me. Fingernails are no longer living. However, they are attatched to living tissue on your body naturally. I wont apologize because you didnt cite any credible source saying that a fingernail is a tool, vice a natural part of the human body, just as hair is.

I am going to 2A and starting a thread re: fingernails as tools so this thread isnt threadjacked any further. Join or dont, I dont care. But stop trying to back up your baseless argument by screaming "FUD".

+1 Kermit

Merc just think of this if everyone that buys a bb and have them install the wonder tool only when they are using the rifle is that no longer just a tool as now you are able to mimic the regular mag release.
the fingernail thing is kind of a gray area but one topic that is walking a very thin line if you want to do it be my guest but what kermit is saying to advise others to do so till you have hard evidence which all in all back to the old advise better safe than sorry.

Merc1138
10-05-2009, 6:06 PM
+1 Kermit

Merc just think of this if everyone that buys a bb and have them install the wonder tool only when they are using the rifle is that no longer just a tool as now you are able to mimic the regular mag release.
the fingernail thing is kind of a gray area but one topic that is walking a very thin line if you want to do it be my guest but what kermit is saying to advise others to do so till you have hard evidence which all in all back to the old advise better safe than sorry.

We're not talking about the wonder tool are we? Your fingernail is not attached to the rifle at any point(unless you were to jb weld you fingernail to it or something... and that'd just be weird.)

We're discussing whether or not the potential to jam a fingernail in the hole makes everyone here on this forum who owns a BB equipped AR a felon. I'm still waiting for Kermit to explain how his argument which only showed his poor knowledge of biology, is not baseless.

Unless evollep3, you're agreeing with him that we're all possibly committing potentially multiple felonies? Just like Kermit you have yet to give any explanation to the baseless idea the a fingernail could potentially make a BB equipped AR into an unregistered assault weapon. Or are you going to start posting the same FUD across the forum as well?

kermit315
10-05-2009, 6:08 PM
Go to 2a....I am done with this tangent in this thread.

Merc1138
10-05-2009, 6:14 PM
Good, we don't need you telling people that using a BB is a felony in this thread.

evollep3
10-05-2009, 6:16 PM
We're not talking about the wonder tool are we? Your fingernail is not attached to the rifle at any point(unless you were to jb weld you fingernail to it or something... and that'd just be weird.)

We're discussing whether or not the potential to jam a fingernail in the hole makes everyone here on this forum who owns a BB equipped AR a felon. I'm still waiting for Kermit to explain how his argument which only showed his poor knowledge of biology, is not baseless.

Unless evollep3, you're agreeing with him that we're all possibly committing potentially multiple felonies? Just like Kermit you have yet to give any explanation to the baseless idea the a fingernail could potentially make a BB equipped AR into an unregistered assault weapon. Or are you going to start posting the same FUD across the forum as well?


I’m talking about the ability to mimic the mag release I don’t think agree that if you accidentally did it that it’s a felony but if you are indeed doing it on purpose like filing your index nail to do so I think you’re asking for trouble or attention that you might not want and if you are doing so I wouldnt advise other to do so. But hey what you do is your choice this is the WWW so do as you please as I can only say better safe than sorry

and the wonder tool example is no different really if you think about it people can say hey its a attachment (it was a tool i screwed on to release the mag?) no beuno

Merc1138
10-05-2009, 6:19 PM
Could it potentially attract attention? Sure, and probably not the attention you want. Does that make it a felony? No. Kermit also left out the part about having to file down your fingernail to do it(and again, you could just use a fake fingernail anyway), kind of important when you're claiming that anyone with a BB and a fingernail is committing a felony.

The wonder tool example is very different, because it's attached to the rifle and not you. It is very clear that a tool cannot be attached to the rifle and be used to drop the mag. Nothing about fingernails is defined anywhere.