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mocos
09-29-2009, 6:28 PM
my noveske 16" midcon is maybe on it's last legs...

it started to key hole a couple of months ago just before BARC...when I was sighting it in with a new scope....1/2 groups at 50yds with wolf 62 grainers..switched to fed 69 smk's....4-6" and 7 out of 10 key holed same with pmc 55 grainers.....same thing except they all key holed....switched back to wolf 62's....1/2 groups again...duh??? got all the 150 yd steel at BARC with a resonable time and not too many extra shots....

little history here....bought the barrel in '05..used "final finish to break in the barrel" have never used copper solvent to clean the barrel...initially Break Free, then Wd-40 and now just kroil....and not that often.

round count...averaged 300/month, most of it wolf 55s 62s..so I may have easily 12,000 rds down the tube...may get more if I stay with wolf...

Is this what to expect from noveske?....what have I done right and more importantly...what have I done wrong...

I am impressed and will order another one from noveske

anybody out there with similar round counts?

m1match
09-29-2009, 6:47 PM
12,000 rounds??? If your barrel shot shot well through that many rounds, I'd say you're doing really well!!! Time for a new barrel and considering the long life of your Noveske, if I were you, I'd replace it with another Noveske.

Barney Gumble
09-29-2009, 6:49 PM
Assuming you get a top quality replacement barrel, don't use final finish...

CSACANNONEER
09-29-2009, 6:59 PM
Assuming you get a top quality replacement barrel, don't use final finish...

and, DO NOT introduce any teflon products into your barrel!

gose
09-29-2009, 7:03 PM
12k isn't bad, get a new barrel and move on ;)

My 18" JP has something like 7k rounds through it and started to open up a little bit. Still not too bad (1-1.5" groups at 100), but as soon as my new 20" upper comes in, the 18" gets demoted to practice and Chabot matches for a couple/few more thousand rounds before getting a new barrel.

bwiese
09-29-2009, 7:14 PM
Your barrel is non-chrome-lined. It's beyond its expected lifespan.

But try several types of ammo just in case you had a bad batch.

cbn620
09-29-2009, 7:25 PM
and, DO NOT introduce any teflon products into your barrel!

I'm pretty sure CLP has teflon or something similar. Never heard this. Care to explain? You can PM if this is old news and I'm just really behind, i.e. not to threadjack.

phish
09-29-2009, 8:29 PM
sometimes, it's best to just move on ;)

Linus
09-29-2009, 8:37 PM
Buy an LMT barrel next. :thumbsup:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=224100&highlight=barrel+life

randy
09-30-2009, 12:39 AM
I'd be bummed if my gun was keyholing at that many rounds. Clean it real good then clean it again.

gunrun45
09-30-2009, 12:56 AM
I would try a copper removing solvent in the barrel prior to chucking it. You most likely have a large buildup of copper residue that. Have you checked for throat erosion? Wear in the area of the gas port?

Group B
09-30-2009, 1:04 AM
I'm pretty sure CLP has teflon or something similar.

The U.S. Military-spec CLP does not contain teflon.

Arteel
09-30-2009, 2:47 AM
Don't feel bad. I think Technique got about half the round count you did in his Noveske before it started key holing.

CSACANNONEER
09-30-2009, 5:13 AM
I'm pretty sure CLP has teflon or something similar. Never heard this. Care to explain? You can PM if this is old news and I'm just really behind, i.e. not to threadjack.

You are right. I would never put CLP in a rifled barrel. Teflon adheres with heat and barrels do not heat up evenly. This causes the teflon build up to be greater in one particular spot in the barrel. This ends up choking the bullet and ruining the precision that the barrel was once capable of. IT ends up being cheaper to replace the barrel than remove the teflon from it. Yea, the military simplifies it's cleaning by using only one product. I don't blame them. There are a lot of not so smart enlisted personel who would get confused if they had to use two different products to clean a gun. Also, the military is not worried about maintaining the ultimate precision which each barrel is caplable of. Face it, most military personel can not hold 2-3moa. If anyone has any doubts about teflon build up, ask your neighborhood custom rifle builder, a NBRSA shooter or your trusted barrel maker.

mocos
09-30-2009, 5:25 AM
randy said
"I'd be bummed if my gun was keyholing at that many rounds. Clean it real good then clean it again. "

what kind of round count would you expect before going bad and what kind of care and ammo would promote that?

mocos
09-30-2009, 5:52 AM
Barney Gumble wrote
"Assuming you get a top quality replacement barrel, don't use final finish... "

what's the reasoning behind this......the concept of the product is pretty good...breaking in a barrel in 40 rds as opposed to +\- 200 rds using "regular" ammo.

B Strong
09-30-2009, 6:05 AM
my noveske 16" midcon is maybe on it's last legs...

it started to key hole a couple of months ago just before BARC...when I was sighting it in with a new scope....1/2 groups at 50yds with wolf 62 grainers..switched to fed 69 smk's....4-6" and 7 out of 10 key holed same with pmc 55 grainers.....same thing except they all key holed....switched back to wolf 62's....1/2 groups again...duh??? got all the 150 yd steel at BARC with a resonable time and not too many extra shots....

little history here....bought the barrel in '05..used "final finish to break in the barrel" have never used copper solvent to clean the barrel...initially Break Free, then Wd-40 and now just kroil....and not that often. round count...averaged 300/month, most of it wolf 55s 62s..so I may have easily 12,000 rds down the tube...may get more if I stay with wolf...

Is this what to expect from noveske?....what have I done right and more importantly...what have I done wrong...

I am impressed and will order another one from noveske

anybody out there with similar round counts?

First off, forget abrasive products for any type of barrel "break-in."

I've tried it on match rifles and service rifles, and imo it makes no difference.

The introduction of any abrasive into the bore requires you to absolutely clean out the bore afterwards, which brings me to my second point - in not using a good copper solvent, you failed to really clean all that abrasive out of the bore.

Using Break-Free for anything other than parts lubrication is a no-goer in my book. Likle other posters noted, it leaves teflon in the bore that can lead to patches of the stuff in various places.

This is my suggestion.

Get some shooter's choice solvent:

http://www.shooters-choice.com/

And some M-Pro 7 cleaner:

http://www.mpro7.com/

I'd spray the M-pro (soak the hell out of) in the barrel and let it sit overnight.

Then start out with the Shooter's Choice and run soaked patches through the bore from the chamber end. Use a bore guide. You're going to get a load of dirty oatches. Repeat until the patches run through clean.

Then go back to the range and test.

I've got a Colt SP-1 CAR type rifle I purchased new in (iirc) 1977 - pencil 16" barrel 1-12. I've fired I don't know how many rounds through it - certainly more than 20K rounds - and although I'm the only "owner", I'm not the only user. When the rifle went to live in the country in a free state prior to the R-R law, the individual who is it's care-taker put it on one of his registered transferable Colt lowers and shot the hell out of the thing in full-auto.

That rifle doesn't keyhole w/ M193 ammo.

It was never broken in, has been through a carbine class at FS with me, my friend has done mag dumps with it in F/A, no appreciable degradation in accuracy. It has only seen after session cleaning with solvent and the occcasional bore brush, parts replacement as needed (extractor/springs, buffer assembly and spring, forend and stock)

Do a proper cleaning on that Noveske barrel and I bet it will come back.

B Strong
09-30-2009, 6:15 AM
Barney Gumble wrote
"Assuming you get a top quality replacement barrel, don't use final finish... "

what's the reasoning behind this......the concept of the product is pretty good...breaking in a barrel in 40 rds as opposed to +\- 200 rds using "regular" ammo.


http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/Barrel_BreakIn.asp

http://www.6mmbr.com/GailMcMbreakin.html

I subscribe to McMillan's pov, as it confirms my personal experience.

There is one exception to this.

On barrels intended for BPCR (Black Powder cartridge Rifle) competition, some of the Italian barrels are rough on arrival. My guru in all things BPCR polishes these bores using JB polish, and he has targets and testing to back up his assertions in this one narrow circumstance.

He also cleans the barrel obsessively after using the JB to avoid any residual abrasive.

mocos
09-30-2009, 9:23 AM
thanks b strong

good reading material....with the number of rounds fired, the break-in method
is a moot point in comparison to a 300 win mag which has an estimated life of 1000 rds (mcmillan)...I will retract never using solvent..probably did when I did the "final finish" but after that went to break free etc...

just comment regarding sharp rifling, jb bore cleaner...yada yada....under normal circumstances of shooting, wouldn't the sharp edges of the rifling get rounded anyway?

my unconfirmed thoughts is that using "final finish" is accelerated j-b bore action with uniform, consistent strokes...something that the human hand can not match?....and I guess that could apply to barrel lapping as well....

Noveske barrels have polygonal rifling...not a true polygon but no sharp edges to the "rifling"...seems to be in contrast with some of what the articles put forth....and it has worked for a lot of rounds. There is a lot of good things going on out there regarding pacnor polygonal barrels...I recently picked up a rem r5 in 308 and the rifling is supposedly not square edged...seems that nothing ever stays the same....they call it progress

I have a Outers foul out, just got some longer rods in the mail and will "foul out" my noveske barrel and give it another go.

as it stands now...my noveske and federal match kings don't like each other at all.... but it still has a love affair going with wolf...

will update as things happen...

technique
09-30-2009, 10:41 AM
Is this what to expect from noveske?....what have I done right and more importantly...what have I done wrong...

I am impressed and will order another one from noveske

anybody out there with similar round counts?

Mine keyholed around 5k. I never really inspected it, I just replaced it. It could be a damaged crown for all I know. This was a 16.1 in Recon SS barrel.

Right now I am about where you are in a chrome lined LMT barrel....Its still shooting fine, No keyholes yet.

I you still want Noveske, I would get a chrome lined....it pays off with high round count shooters.

trinydex
09-30-2009, 10:59 AM
In fact, I’ve never heard of one of our new barrels shooting out. In a year and two months, there’s never been a report of one of my new buttons…the new types of rifling types [barrels] shooting out.

http://www.defensereview.com/noveske-rifleworks-n4-light-recce-carbine-john-noveske-interview-part-one/

doh?

bballwizard05
09-30-2009, 11:04 AM
anyone wanna clue in the semi-noob as to what keyholing is?

trinydex
09-30-2009, 11:08 AM
it's when the bullet tumbles in the air because it is not stabilized. i think.

so it'll hit the target sideways and make a sort of keyhold looking hole in the target.

bballwizard05
09-30-2009, 11:11 AM
Oh ok, thats what I was thinking, but then realized me thinking is dangerous, and I best leave it to the pros. thanks

B Strong
09-30-2009, 11:21 AM
anyone wanna clue in the semi-noob as to what keyholing is?

"Keyholing" is where the projectile isn't properly stabilized in flight, and strikes the target sideways rather than tip first.

technique
09-30-2009, 11:33 AM
http://www.defensereview.com/noveske-rifleworks-n4-light-recce-carbine-john-noveske-interview-part-one/

doh?

Yeah...I know. I read that a while ago and it gave me a good laugh.:D
There are a few less than truths in there.

QuarterBoreGunner
09-30-2009, 11:57 AM
As god is my witness I read the thread title as

"My noveske is key holing at 12,000 YRDS" and I thought well no **** it is.

J_Rock
09-30-2009, 12:19 PM
Also you have to remember that barrel life also depends on your rate of fire. If you were doing lots of rapid fire strings without letting the barrel cool down then Id say 12,000 rounds is pretty impressive.

slappomatt
09-30-2009, 12:31 PM
As god is my witness I read the thread title as

"My noveske is key holing at 12,000 YRDS" and I thought well no **** it is.

me too. and I thought the same thing. lol. and dibs on everyone's "worn out" barrels they arent using anymore!!! :chris:

762cavalier
09-30-2009, 12:45 PM
As god is my witness I read the thread title as

"My noveske is key holing at 12,000 YRDS" and I thought well no **** it is.

You were not alone in that.;)

mocos
09-30-2009, 1:07 PM
Mine keyholed around 5k. I never really inspected it, I just replaced it. It could be a damaged crown for all I know. This was a 16.1 in Recon SS barrel.

Right now I am about where you are in a chrome lined LMT barrel....Its still shooting fine, No keyholes yet.

I you still want Noveske, I would get a chrome lined....it pays off with high round count shooters.

what do you consider high round count....my estimate of 12k may be conservative and I'm not throwing in the towel yet.....and since 90% of my rds are 100 yds or less, I could tolerate key holing for who knows how long...

do you still have the barrel...I might be interested....noveske is backordered right now...

ar15barrels
09-30-2009, 1:16 PM
my noveske 16" midcon is maybe on it's last legs...

it started to key hole a couple of months ago just before BARC...when I was sighting it in with a new scope....1/2 groups at 50yds with wolf 62 grainers..switched to fed 69 smk's....4-6" and 7 out of 10 key holed same with pmc 55 grainers.....same thing except they all key holed....switched back to wolf 62's....1/2 groups again...duh??? got all the 150 yd steel at BARC with a resonable time and not too many extra shots....

little history here....bought the barrel in '05..used "final finish to break in the barrel" have never used copper solvent to clean the barrel...initially Break Free, then Wd-40 and now just kroil....and not that often.

round count...averaged 300/month, most of it wolf 55s 62s..so I may have easily 12,000 rds down the tube...

When you finally replace it, send me the old barrel so I can section it and photograph it.

PIRATE14
09-30-2009, 1:52 PM
what do you consider high round count....my estimate of 12k may be conservative and I'm not throwing in the towel yet.....and since 90% of my rds are 100 yds or less, I could tolerate key holing for who knows how long...

do you still have the barrel...I might be interested....noveske is backordered right now...

Well most guys that shoot competition usually start thinkin about changing their barrels at around 3,000 rds.....

I am assuming that you don't really shoot for acurracy cause you might have noticed your group sizes opening up some before key holing.....

You'd prolly be better suited with a higher end chrome lined barrel....

PIRATE14
09-30-2009, 1:53 PM
When you finally replace it, send me the old barrel so I can section it and photograph it.

Thats a good idea.....;)

mocos
09-30-2009, 2:29 PM
When you finally replace it, send me the old barrel so I can section it and photograph it.

what?..and destroy a perfectly good home defense barrel ?? I will definitely keep you in mind when I have exhausted all attempts to keep my rounds from becoming circus performers and when the wolfs are doing somersaults at 10yds out.....

...now that I got your attention....what do you think is causing the key holing.....bullets not getting stabilized...twist is 1:7...erroded bore...throat..(no equipment to inspect)... crown is ok by the whennaked eye...and protected by muzzle brake (jp/b cooley)...always cleaned from breech end...whenever I cleaned it...maybe every 1500 rds...in the last year or so, consisted of running a couple of patches soaked in kroil, let it sit a while, sometimes run a nylon brush back and forth a few times then dry patches until it was sorta clean....

mocos
09-30-2009, 2:32 PM
As god is my witness I read the thread title as

"My noveske is key holing at 12,000 YRDS" and I thought well no **** it is.

forgot to mention that they were still supersonic at that distance.....hmm must be the fog in pacifica

ar15barrels
09-30-2009, 2:34 PM
what do you think is causing the key holing.....

Eroded throat and bore.

mocos
09-30-2009, 2:40 PM
Well most guys that shoot competition usually start thinkin about changing their barrels at around 3,000 rds.....

I am assuming that you don't really shoot for acurracy cause you might have noticed your group sizes opening up some before key holing.....

You'd prolly be better suited with a higher end chrome lined barrel....

well, yes and no...sometimes the target is upper a zone at 50 yds twice against the clock....there is accuracy involved...be nice if the holes are touching...wishful thinking...

and of course depends on the requirements of the competition...check out Chabot's 3gun(2 gun really) and their tac rifle when it starts up again.

and what round count would you expect from a chrome lined barrel....

PIRATE14
09-30-2009, 2:56 PM
well, yes and no...sometimes the target is upper a zone at 50 yds twice against the clock....there is accuracy involved...be nice if the holes are touching...wishful thinking...

and of course depends on the requirements of the competition...check out Chabot's 3gun(2 gun really) and their tac rifle when it starts up again.

and what round count would you expect from a chrome lined barrel....

Well you only need a certain amount of accuracy for three gun versus say NRA High power......depends on your level of competiveness.....

Round count down a barrel has a lot of varibles involved......repeated mag dumps....full auto...etc.... gonna depend on how you shoot the rifle....

Heat is the enemy for any type of barrel......even a chrome lined M4 used by SOCOM types will burn after a few thousand rounds.....

But You should be able to push 15-20K w/ a chromelined barrel....

technique
09-30-2009, 3:19 PM
what do you consider high round count....my estimate of 12k may be conservative and I'm not throwing in the towel yet.....and since 90% of my rds are 100 yds or less, I could tolerate key holing for who knows how long...

do you still have the barrel...I might be interested....noveske is backordered right now...

Highround count on a non-chrome lined barrel is 10K...Mine crapped on 5k and I get keyholes at 50 yards.

My Chrome lined barrel is 10K+ and still going. Though there is throat erosion and a worn chamber....its still good with no keyholes and very little accuracy loss.

I'm keeping that old Noveske barrel for a future pistol build.:)

mocos
09-30-2009, 4:00 PM
Eroded throat and bore.

I'm guessing...if the throat is eroded, the bullet sorta rattles its way towards the rifling and gets banged up a bit......now no longer smooth as a baby's butt... hits the rifling which imparts spin to the bullet... when the bullet exits the barrel it's not perfectly round anymore and begins to wobble and depending on the bullet type, weight and velocity, the bullet will wobble a little or a lot....and may keyhole.... The main cause is the eroded throat? and the bore somewhat?

would the slower velocity of the wolf 62's (+/- 2700 fbs)versus the smk 69's (+/-2900) be the reason why the wolf's are not key holing and the smk's are?

ar15barrels
09-30-2009, 4:04 PM
No idea why the bahavior is so different.
Perhaps the wolf bullets are obturating into the oversized throat and the sierras are not.

That's why I want to measure and cross section the barrel.

When my last barrel shot out, I could drop a 55gr bullet about 2" down into the throat before it stopped.
It probably had about 13-15k through it.

norcal-ar
09-30-2009, 8:37 PM
this is now tagged i want to see the out come of this situation.

randy
10-01-2009, 1:00 AM
randy said
"I'd be bummed if my gun was keyholing at that many rounds. Clean it real good then clean it again. "

what kind of round count would you expect before going bad and what kind of care and ammo would promote that?


20k would be where I wouldn't be upset about group size. My JP is old and I've shot it for years. I put it on paper last year and did 1moa no problem. I do have a new one on order though.

SuperSet
10-01-2009, 10:08 PM
While we're on this road about ARs being shot out, how often should the gas tube be replaced?

ar15barrels
10-01-2009, 10:19 PM
While we're on this road about ARs being shot out, how often should the gas tube be replaced?

When the head wears out and leaks enough to cause short stroking.

http://ar15barrels.com/tech/gas-tube-wear.jpg

Trendkill
10-01-2009, 10:37 PM
My Noveske barrel is workin just fine......not quite a kagillionn rounds....but workin fine.

dot429
10-01-2009, 11:21 PM
If the barrel break-in stuff is all hog-wash, then why does John Paul, who I've spoken with on the phone several times at length about break-in, advocate JB bore paste and include it with detailed instructions on how to use it with every rifle/upper he sells?

I own two JP uppers and have the owners manuals, videos, and included JB paste, though I have not broken them in yet, they remain unfired. This is a bit confusing; is JP full of it? I sure hope not. I spent a lot of money on his wonderful uppers.

Also, I've used CLP in bores for years, including my NM M1A that shoots 1 hole groups at 100 yards and never had a problem. Have I just been lucky?

Mute
10-02-2009, 7:49 AM
Everyone has their own opinion on barrel break-in. I've gone both routes, having used guns right out of the box and putting others through the laborious process of shooting and cleaning after X number of rounds. If breaking in a barrel made any kind of difference I certainly didn't notice it. Nowadays, I just take it to the range and shoot it. That's my break-in.

coop44
10-02-2009, 8:34 AM
if you shoot wolf and pmc, you might as well start reloading using rocks from your driveway, How wolf and pmc ever got to be considered acceptable ammo is freaking amazing!

Gator Monroe
10-02-2009, 8:36 AM
Almost 11.000 rounds thru my WASR 22 should I expect this also ?:(

mocos
10-02-2009, 8:56 AM
if you shoot wolf and pmc, you might as well start reloading using rocks from your driveway, How wolf and pmc ever got to be considered acceptable ammo is freaking amazing!

It's all relative as to what anyone considers "acceptable"...I was getting 4-5 inches at 200yd..with wolf 62 jhp's out of my noveske.....1/2" at 50 yds....for the price, that was certainly acceptable. If I could get the same with rocks out of somebody's driveway, I would switch to rocks in a heartbeat....the economics of that was I got more "bangs" for my bucks....why waste say...fed 69ers on targets less than 50yds... can't speak for pmc's ....

mocos
10-02-2009, 8:58 AM
this is now tagged i want to see the out come of this situation.

gotcha....will post after I do a "foul out" on the barrel....

SuperSet
10-02-2009, 8:59 AM
When the head wears out and leaks enough to cause short stroking.


Thanks Randall.
My backup rifle has seen 4000 rounds and I see some residue where the gas tube meets the gas block. I'm not seeing any short stroking so should I replace the gas tube anyway?
ETA: Sorry for the thread hijack, mocos.

dchang0
10-02-2009, 9:06 AM
if you shoot wolf and pmc, you might as well start reloading using rocks from your driveway, How wolf and pmc ever got to be considered acceptable ammo is freaking amazing!

Some Wolf ammo is actually repackaged/rebranded super-high quality ammo, such as Wolf Match Extra = SK Standard Plus.

And Wolf's quality in handgun rounds appears to be improving gradually (their 9mm is rebranded Tula). So it wouldn't be wise to assume that Wolf centerfire rifle ammo can't also improve gradually over time, especially as the factories improve their tooling and processes.

mocos
10-02-2009, 9:08 AM
[QUOTE=technique;3138449]Highround count on a non-chrome lined barrel is 10K...Mine crapped on 5k and I get keyholes at 50 yards.

My Chrome lined barrel is 10K+ and still going. Though there is throat erosion and a worn chamber....its still good with no keyholes and very little accuracy loss.

wow...it's all over the place...maybe you guys out there with high round count barrels could post what you've got and what you have shot.....no war stories..or "my buddy's got a yada yada"...some real life experiences would be appreciated.

mocos
10-02-2009, 9:11 AM
My Noveske barrel is workin just fine......not quite a kagillionn rounds....but workin fine.

if not a kagilliion....how many thousands.....

ar15barrels
10-02-2009, 9:15 AM
Almost 11.000 rounds thru my WASR 22 should I expect this also ?:(

Not from a 22.
22's probably get more wear from improper cleaning than from shooting.

mocos
10-02-2009, 9:16 AM
No idea why the bahavior is so different.
Perhaps the wolf bullets are obturating into the oversized throat and the sierras are not.

That's why I want to measure and cross section the barrel.

When my last barrel shot out, I could drop a 55gr bullet about 2" down into the throat before it stopped.
It probably had about 13-15k through it.

at that point, other than by dropping a bullet down into the throat, can one see or feel the erosion? also, will chamber type have any correlation with throat wear...ie nato, saami, wylde etc ....noveske has a wylde chamber

ar15barrels
10-02-2009, 9:17 AM
My backup rifle has seen 4000 rounds and I see some residue where the gas tube meets the gas block. I'm not seeing any short stroking so should I replace the gas tube anyway?

No.
That's leakage at the gas block, caused by gas block dimensions, not gas tube problems.

mocos
10-02-2009, 9:19 AM
20k would be where I wouldn't be upset about group size. My JP is old and I've shot it for years. I put it on paper last year and did 1moa no problem. I do have a new one on order though.

are you saying you have 20k on your jp tube and still getting moa?...who is the barrel maker?

ar15barrels
10-02-2009, 9:19 AM
at that point, other than by dropping a bullet down into the throat, can one see or feel the erosion? also, will chamber type have any correlation with throat wear...ie nato, saami, wylde etc ....noveske has a wylde chamber

If you know what you are looking for, you can look down the barrel and simply SEE the erosion.

Chamber type certainly changes things.
If you start with a longer throat of larger diameter, it's going to be "shot out" sooner.

A SAAMI 223 throat in a non-chromed barrel probably becomes a 5.56 throat within about 5k rounds.

mocos
10-02-2009, 9:27 AM
Almost 11.000 rounds thru my WASR 22 should I expect this also ?:(

that's an ak of some type? what kind of groups was it capable of when new and what do you get now...or does it matter?

B Strong
10-02-2009, 9:31 AM
If the barrel break-in stuff is all hog-wash, then why does John Paul, who I've spoken with on the phone several times at length about break-in, advocate JB bore paste and include it with detailed instructions on how to use it with every rifle/upper he sells?

I own two JP uppers and have the owners manuals, videos, and included JB paste, though I have not broken them in yet, they remain unfired. This is a bit confusing; is JP full of it? I sure hope not. I spent a lot of money on his wonderful uppers.

Also, I've used CLP in bores for years, including my NM M1A that shoots 1 hole groups at 100 yards and never had a problem. Have I just been lucky?


If you listen to what McMillan wrote, it's about selling barrels.

I don't know if that's the case with JP, but I wouldn't run JB or any abrasive through a quality barrel.

Originally Posted by coop44
if you shoot wolf and pmc, you might as well start reloading using rocks from your driveway, How wolf and pmc ever got to be considered acceptable ammo is freaking amazing!

I've had acceptable results with both, and I've been shooting PMC 7.62 NATO since the 1970's - one lot of the PMC for what ever reason was one of the most accurate lots of 7.62 ammo I've ever run, including Federal GM Match.

PMC makes damn good .45 acp hardball as well. I've run several thousands of rounds of it through high end 1911's and an HK USP Expert w/o failure.

mocos
10-02-2009, 9:31 AM
Some Wolf ammo is actually repackaged/rebranded super-high quality ammo, such as Wolf Match Extra = SK Standard Plus.

And Wolf's quality in handgun rounds appears to be improving gradually (their 9mm is rebranded Tula). So it wouldn't be wise to assume that Wolf centerfire rifle ammo can't also improve gradually over time, especially as the factories improve their tooling and processes.

I agree....I haven't used any of their brass cased, only lacquer and now polymer coated...and hearing a lot of good things about the privi partisian(sp) offerings.....

Bowser
10-02-2009, 9:37 AM
If you listen to what McMillan wrote, it's about selling barrels.

Yup. So you buy an upper from JP and what do you think JP is going to tell you about bbl break in? To do it and wear down the bbl faster so you can do what? Buy another from him!

mocos
10-02-2009, 9:39 AM
Thanks Randall.
My backup rifle has seen 4000 rounds and I see some residue where the gas tube meets the gas block. I'm not seeing any short stroking so should I replace the gas tube anyway?
ETA: Sorry for the thread hijack, mocos.

no big deal.....my noveske gas tube then has 12k+ and no short stroking. I'm sure everybody looking is wondering how long their baby's will last..

btw..I run my ar dry and mobil one on the contact spots on the bolt carrier and gas rings

B Strong
10-02-2009, 9:39 AM
I agree....I haven't used any of their brass cased, only lacquer and now polymer coated...and hearing a lot of good things about the privi partisian(sp) offerings.....

The Privi 5.56 75 grain BTHP is excellent stuff, and affordable too.

The other 5.56 stuff I'd recommend is the Hornady LE 75 grain BTHP steel case training ammo:

http://www.hornadyle.com/products/detail.php?id=72&sID=94

That suff shoots great and is affordable too.

ar15barrels
10-02-2009, 9:48 AM
that's an ak of some type? what kind of groups was it capable of when new and what do you get now...or does it matter?

It's a 22 long rifle AK.

ar15barrels
10-02-2009, 9:48 AM
I agree....I haven't used any of their brass cased, only lacquer and now polymer coated...and hearing a lot of good things about the privi partisian(sp) offerings.....

Wolf Gold (brass cased) is made by Privi Partizan.
At least that's the case with the 6.5 grendel offering.

mocos
10-02-2009, 9:53 AM
Yup. So you buy an upper from JP and what do you think JP is going to tell you about bbl break in? To do it and wear down the bbl faster so you can do what? Buy another from him!

In the case of something like a 300 win mag the life of the barrel is maybe 1000 rds before accuracy drops off (this was in an earlier post, Mcmillans, I think) you have a point, but for ar's, it must be for for overall barrel life. I believe there is a break-in period before the barrel "settles in" to some level of repeatable "accuracy"

brings to mind that some gun manufacturers include in the box a target showing the group shot before leaving the factory...does that mean the barrel is "broken in" and that you can expect better after some more rounds down the tube??

3GunFunShooter
10-02-2009, 9:54 AM
I bought a barrel from JP and followed the instructions he gave.
Gun shoots .770" group at 300 yds. with Black Hills 77gr.
JP is in the business of selling high quality products and is a competitor himself.
Following his recommend break in instructions is not going to wear out your barrel faster.

ar15barrels
10-02-2009, 9:58 AM
In the case of something like a 300 win mag the life of the barrel is maybe 1000 rds before accuracy drops off (this was in an earlier post, Mcmillans, I think) you have a point, but for ar's, it must be for for overall barrel life. I believe there is a break-in period before the barrel "settles in" to some level of repeatable "accuracy"

Last weekend we had a brand new (unfired) remington 5R on the line at our CaPRC shoot.
It took about 20 rounds to "settle down" and then shoot groups like this:

http://nova-designs.com/blogimgs/sep09/zero_group.jpg

I don't remember if that was 3 or 5 rounds.
There was NO cleaning of the gun.

I had taken it apart and threaded the barrel to install the brake.
I also re-crowned it as part of the threading job.

trinydex
10-02-2009, 12:43 PM
i think that just made the rem 5r supply smaller...

mocos
10-02-2009, 12:47 PM
Last weekend we had a brand new (unfired) remington 5R on the line at our CaPRC shoot.
It took about 20 rounds to "settle down" and then shoot groups like this:

http://nova-designs.com/blogimgs/sep09/zero_group.jpg

I don't remember if that was 3 or 5 rounds.
There was NO cleaning of the gun.

I had taken it apart and threaded the barrel to install the brake.
I also re-crowned it as part of the threading job.

out of curiosity...what were the first 17 like.....what yardage..n what ammo?

ar15barrels
10-02-2009, 1:06 PM
out of curiosity...what were the first 17 like.....what yardage..n what ammo?

All over the place.
Several moa for sure, but then he was dialing the scope in at the same time so it's really hard to say for sure.
The load was scenars over varget.
100yds.

Mute
10-02-2009, 1:46 PM
In the case of something like a 300 win mag the life of the barrel is maybe 1000 rds before accuracy drops off (this was in an earlier post, Mcmillans, I think) you have a point, but for ar's, it must be for for overall barrel life. I believe there is a break-in period before the barrel "settles in" to some level of repeatable "accuracy"

brings to mind that some gun manufacturers include in the box a target showing the group shot before leaving the factory...does that mean the barrel is "broken in" and that you can expect better after some more rounds down the tube??

In my own experience, I have not found this to be the case, at least not in regards to the sense that you need to do a "break-in" to reach this point. Usually I start to see consistently good groups (on a good rifle at least), within the first 50 to 100 rounds even without the tedious break-in procedure.

mocos
10-02-2009, 2:23 PM
In my own experience, I have not found this to be the case, at least not in regards to the sense that you need to do a "break-in" to reach this point. Usually I start to see consistently good groups (on a good rifle at least), within the first 50 to 100 rounds even without the tedious break-in procedure.

ok...this thread is sorta going in two directions but ultimately may have relevance...

Question ...Will recommended "break in procedures" by manufacturer, expert, guru contribute to longer barrel life? I broke my noveske in using a "final finish method" and I'm at 12k or so now....final numbers not in yet....I am about to break in a remington 5r and am going to "final finish" it...I will keep track of the rounds on this one....what is a reasonable barrel life on an r5 or for that matter a bolt action.....I don't intend this to be a safe queen... and hope to put a lot of rounds out there...

mocos
10-02-2009, 2:32 PM
Not from a 22.
22's probably get more wear from improper cleaning than from shooting.

ok...what's a reasonable interval in number rounds or what condition threashold would prompt cleaning....and would you clean it selectively ie bore only ...bcg...sometimes ...lower..once in a blue moon

mocos
10-02-2009, 2:59 PM
The Privi 5.56 75 grain BTHP is excellent stuff, and affordable too.

The other 5.56 stuff I'd recommend is the Hornady LE 75 grain BTHP steel case training ammo:

http://www.hornadyle.com/products/detail.php?id=72&sID=94

That suff shoots great and is affordable too.

are you sure that's not wolf in disguise......steel case, lacquer....how cheeep and who sells it...

mocos
10-02-2009, 3:01 PM
If you know what you are looking for, you can look down the barrel and simply SEE the erosion.

Chamber type certainly changes things.
If you start with a longer throat of larger diameter, it's going to be "shot out" sooner.

A SAAMI 223 throat in a non-chromed barrel probably becomes a 5.56 throat within about 5k rounds.

ok...and where is a wylde chamber in this order..longer or shorter..

ar15barrels
10-02-2009, 3:13 PM
ok...what's a reasonable interval in number rounds or what condition threashold would prompt cleaning....and would you clean it selectively ie bore only ...bcg...sometimes ...lower..once in a blue moon

I never clean the barrel on a 22 beyond pulling a bore snake through it.
I clean out the action once in a while, maybe after a couple bricks.

ar15barrels
10-02-2009, 3:17 PM
Will recommended "break in procedures" by manufacturer, expert, guru contribute to longer barrel life? I broke my noveske in using a "final finish method" and I'm at 12k or so now....final numbers not in yet....I am about to break in a remington 5r and am going to "final finish" it...I will keep track of the rounds on this one....what is a reasonable barrel life on an r5 or for that matter a bolt action.....I don't intend this to be a safe queen... and hope to put a lot of rounds out there...

The biggest contributor to barrel life is keeping the barrel cool.

If you shoot 10rd rapid fire timed stages, the barrel gets hot.
When it's hot, it wears much quicker.
The other contributor is pressure.
If you run a hot diet of 155's and shoot rapid 10rd stages, you could see the barrel go south in 3000 rounds.
If you never get it hot and stick to mild factory loads, it could last 8000 rounds.

Trendkill
10-02-2009, 5:03 PM
if not a kagilliion....how many thousands.....


1....maybe

B Strong
10-03-2009, 9:15 AM
are you sure that's not wolf in disguise......steel case, lacquer....how cheeep and who sells it...

If it's a subcontracted ammo from Wolf, they're running a better show than anyone would believe.

The Hornady stuff shoots sub-MOA out of my SPR clone (1-8) w/ a 4X Trijicon ACOG, doughnut reticle, from prone at 100yds.

I bought the stuff in quantity, $440.00 = K before the Opanic. I believe the last price I saw was $160.00ish for 200 rounds.

I should note that I also fired some Federal GM match 69 grain stuff at the same shooting session and it didn't group any better than the Hornady.

It's a real world bargin at the price I paid for it.

mocos
10-03-2009, 9:27 AM
It's a 22 long rifle AK.

well, learn something new everyday....is it a conversion or oem?

mocos
10-03-2009, 9:30 AM
i think that just made the rem 5r supply smaller...

not really...supply is still the same....this one is just out of circulation for a while....with an extremely high price on it...lol

mocos
10-03-2009, 9:34 AM
I never clean the barrel on a 22 beyond pulling a bore snake through it.
I clean out the action once in a while, maybe after a couple bricks.

sounds like you are referring to rimfire 22....I was asking about 223 /556centerfire.

The DRis
10-03-2009, 1:53 PM
The Hornady is not reboxed Wolf. Molon over on arfcom did a very detailed report on the ammo.

mocos
10-06-2009, 8:50 AM
20k would be where I wouldn't be upset about group size. My JP is old and I've shot it for years. I put it on paper last year and did 1moa no problem. I do have a new one on order though.

how many rounds do you think have gone through it.....I took your advice and used bore solvent to clean it and after that I used foul out and the "clean " light went on almost immediately after I switched it on. Shot it in a match this weekend ...+/- 200rds and had one key hole... so now I am up to 12,200+......won't have a chance to bench it for grouping until a couple of weeks out...and just in case ordered a new barrel from Noveske.

45R
10-06-2009, 9:22 AM
The Hornady is not reboxed Wolf. Molon over on arfcom did a very detailed report on the ammo.

Gotta link :)

norcal-ar
10-14-2009, 8:56 PM
how many rounds do you think have gone through it.....I took your advice and used bore solvent to clean it and after that I used foul out and the "clean " light went on almost immediately after I switched it on. Shot it in a match this weekend ...+/- 200rds and had one key hole... so now I am up to 12,200+......won't have a chance to bench it for grouping until a couple of weeks out...and just in case ordered a new barrel from Noveske.

sweet so the major cleaning helped out a lot! not to hi-jack the thread but what type of brush setup does everyone use to clean their ar's? i am curious. and does anyone believe in the guides for the cleaning rods?

mocos
10-28-2009, 3:49 PM
sweet so the major cleaning helped out a lot! not to hi-jack the thread but what type of brush setup does everyone use to clean their ar's? i am curious. and does anyone believe in the guides for the cleaning rods?

well, somewhat...I didn't get to shoot the fed 69 smks which key holed virtually every round....as far as what brush I use...very seldom...if I do, it's a nylon one. otherwise I only use kroil and patches and follow it up with mobil-one and no guide.