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epic4444
09-28-2009, 7:52 PM
Hello, i did a search but couldnt find a thread for my topic. Anyways im wondering if you must be 21 to buy a stripped lower? I want to order a custom lower online but am only 20, so is it law that you must be 21 to DROS a stripped lower? If so is there any bay area or sacramento area gun shop that will receive the lower and let me put the stock, grip and raddlock on it before dros? Any input would be great and appreciated

rct442
09-28-2009, 7:59 PM
No, you must be over 21, because they changed the ATF 4473 form about a year ago.

I'm in the same predicament as you, because I'm also under 21. To overcome this, I just ordered a LMT complete lower instead of a stripped lower.

It sucks, but it is the law. :(

EDIT*** $499 @ Riflegear.
http://www.riflegear.com/images/Product/medium/547.jpg

dieselpower
09-28-2009, 8:24 PM
$500 for a completre LMT....nice deal man. the stock kit alone is $200!!!

epic4444
09-28-2009, 8:55 PM
Ya i'd consider that but no one has the complete lower im looking for and i really want this custom lower, so i'd rather wait the few months than go out and buy something i have no want for. Anyone know any dealers that would work with me possibly?

johnrunner89
09-28-2009, 9:02 PM
Couldn't you just buy the LPK, stock assembly of your choice and take it to the local shop, have them install it on the OLL and transfer it to you as a complete lower?

rct442
09-28-2009, 9:07 PM
Ya i'd consider that but no one has the complete lower im looking for and i really want this custom lower, so i'd rather wait the few months than go out and buy something i have no want for. Anyone know any dealers that would work with me possibly?

You would need to find a dealer with a 07 FFL license to assemble it. 01 and 03 FFLs can't assemble it for you, because they can only transfer Title 1 firearms, not "manufacture" them.

I would assume no 01 FFL would allow you to build-up a stripped lower, mainly because you can't DROS a bare receiver under 21. I also can only assume the ATF would frown upon a 01 FFL "manufacturing" a Title 1 Rifle from a bare receiver.

Federal law only states no one under 21 can purchase a bare receiver, however if you were to possess/own it, that would be perfectly legal. I legally own bare receivers even though I'm under 21, because I purchased them before the revision in the law.

Coming to my point, if you were to intra-family transfer the stripped lower, say from your father/guardian, that is perfectly legal.

rct442
09-28-2009, 9:08 PM
Couldn't you just buy the LPK, stock assembly of your choice and take it to the local shop, have them install it on the OLL and transfer it to you as a complete lower?

See my post above.

Norccer
09-28-2009, 9:09 PM
East fix, order it and have them hold it until you bring in a stock and install that. Then you are good to go.

rct442
09-28-2009, 9:12 PM
East fix, order it and have them hold it until you bring in a stock and install that. Then you are good to go.

Until he turns 21? Sure, if the FFL is willing to wait X months before he can DROS it. But then he will be 21 anyway, and he can transfer a bare receiver legally from a 01/FFL. At that point, the problem is moot.

And I'll repeat myself again, 01/FFls can't legally "manufacture" a Title 1 firearm from a bare receiver. Also, I believe a 07/FFL has to mark the receiver just as a 07/2 SOT FFL would have to mark a SBR receiver.

johnrunner89
09-28-2009, 9:16 PM
You would need to find a dealer with a 07 FFL license to assemble it. 01 and 03 FFLs can't assemble it for you, because they can only transfer Title 1 firearms, not "manufacture" them.

I would assume no 01 FFL would allow you to build-up a stripped lower, mainly because you can't DROS a bare receiver under 21. I also can only assume the ATF would frown upon a 01 FFL "manufacturing" a Title 1 Rifle from a bare receiver.

Federal law only states no one under 21 can purchase a bare receiver, however if you were to possess/own it, that would be perfectly legal. I legally own bare receivers even though I'm under 21, because I purchased them before the revision in the law.

Coming to my point, if you were to intra-family transfer the stripped lower, say from your father/guardian, that is perfectly legal.

When a dealer does a DROS on a stripped lower don't they do it as a handgun right or as something else? And if they install a stock and LPK than they can legally DROS is as a long gun because they technically aren't transferring it as a "stripped lower" right? Correct me if i'm wrong please.

rct442
09-28-2009, 9:24 PM
When a dealer does a DROS on a stripped lower don't they do it as a handgun right or as something else?

Explain to me how someone under 21 can DROS a handgun, let alone a stripped pistol lower? You can technically DROS a stripped lower as a bare receiver or handgun, however the same issue is that one must also be 21.

18 = Rifles/Shotguns
21 = Rifles/Shotguns + Handguns + Bare Receivers

Drinking isn't the only best thing about being 21. :cheers2:

And if they install a stock and LPK than they can legally DROS is as a long gun because they technically aren't transferring it as a "stripped lower" right? Correct me if i'm wrong please.

The issue is a 01/FFL acting like a 07/FFL, which obviously is not legal. It would be hard to find a FFL willing to risk their license, for a 20 year old who wants a "special" lower.

Baxter
09-28-2009, 10:30 PM
DO you have the pc on this info or some doj reference #?

waitwha?
09-28-2009, 10:31 PM
you must be 21 to do this. I learned the hard way when i went to the store and they refused to sell me one. I just had my dad buy it and give it to me lol

rct442
09-28-2009, 10:35 PM
DO you have the pc on this info or some doj reference #?

It's been discussed ad nauseum before.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=124598
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=135807&page=3
http://calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=223331&page=2
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=125032

Edit*** See ATF PDFs attached

Baxter
09-28-2009, 10:43 PM
Thanks I looked for it too. What a joke.

rct442
09-28-2009, 10:49 PM
Thanks I looked for it too. What a joke.

These are the best explanations. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=1751464&postcount=7

Technically, it's always been that way, but has been only loosely enforced.

Stripped receivers are not rifles, shotguns, or pistols. They are title 1 receivers or frames. They are still firearms, but since they are not a rifle or shotgun (and therefore exempted from the 21yo rule), you must be 21 to purchase one.

The rule was not enforced properly because the old 4473 didn't really have a spot for receiver/frame, or other. It was simply long gun and handgun. Since stripped receivers are/were used to construct long guns, dealers would just 4473 them as long guns and sell them to 18yo's. That was, technically, illegal. Just not enforced.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=125032
The question about other is question 18 on the form which is a check box. Type of firearm(s) to be transferred (check or mark all that apply): Check all boxes that apply. “Other” refers to frames, receivers and other firearms that are not either handguns or long guns (rifle or shotguns), such as firearms having a pistol grip that expel a shotgun shell, or National Firearms Act (NFA) firearms. If a frame or receiver can only be made into a long gun (rifle or shotgun), it is still a frame or receiver not a handgun or long gun. However, they still are “firearms” by definition, and subject to the same GCA limitations as any other firearms. See Section 921(a) (3) (b). 18 USC Section 922(b) (1) makes it unlawful for a licensee to sell any firearm other than a shotgun or rifle to any person under the age of 21. Since a frame or receiver for a firearm, to include one that can only be made into a long gun, is a “firearm other than a shotgun or rifle,” it can not be transferred to anyone under the age of 21. Also, note that that multiple sales forms are not required for frames or receivers of any firearms, or pistol grip firearms. They are not “pistols or revolvers” under Section 923 (g) (3) (a).

I hope this answers your question but it looks like they have to be 21. The form is a little more user friendly but not that much.

tenpercentfirearms
09-29-2009, 7:01 AM
I was just told by my auditor that only complete rifles can be DROSed to under 21. The definition of a rifle includes the language about a rifled barrel and since a complete lower does not have a rifled barrel, it isn't a rifle and therefore isn't a long gun and therefore you aren't supposed to DROS it to people under 21.

rct442
09-29-2009, 7:25 AM
I was just told by my auditor that only complete rifles can be DROSed to under 21. The definition of a rifle includes the language about a rifled barrel and since a complete lower does not have a rifled barrel, it isn't a rifle and therefore isn't a long gun and therefore you aren't supposed to DROS it to people under 21.

Do you have a memo to confirm this, or was it just a verbal kind of thing?

reidnez
09-29-2009, 9:40 AM
Just a hypothetical here...why not have a parent buy the lower, assemble everything, and then the parent gifts the completed rifle to you? Parent-child transfers are PPT-exempt, and IIRC a longarm parent-child transfer doesn't even require a scrap of paperwork.

Legal? Feasible? Why not?

SixPointEight
09-29-2009, 10:45 AM
I'm in the same boat. Looks like I'm spending a couple hundred more on a complete then

rct442
09-29-2009, 11:07 AM
Just a hypothetical here...why not have a parent buy the lower, assemble everything, and then the parent gifts the completed rifle to you? Parent-child transfers are PPT-exempt, and IIRC a longarm parent-child transfer doesn't even require a scrap of paperwork.

Legal? Feasible? Why not?

A even easier way is for you're parent/guardian to DROS a stripped lower, then intra-family transfer it to you. It's perfectly legal to own/possess a bare reciever if you're under 21, even though someone under 21 can't DROS one at a FFL.