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RaymondMillbrae
09-28-2009, 5:47 PM
Hey folks,

another question for yall.

I remember reading a few opinions on the differences between the POF gas piston uppers vs the Addax gas piston uppers.

Some of the points mentioned were that the POF Predator rails were "too high". And I also remember something about the way the free-float handguard was installed on the POF, verses the way it was installed onto the Addax. (Or something like that).

Bottom line, some folks love their POF's, and some folks love their Addax GPU's.

I would like to hear the differences again, and would like to have some specifics.

I am considering an Addax GPU as a second weapon...and I would like to know "why".

No bashing, please. Just keep it down to FACTS and intelligent observations.

Thanks!!

In Christ: Raymond

THT
09-28-2009, 5:50 PM
Addax uses a long-stroke piston system while the POF is a short-stroke. This reduces felt recoil. Additionally, the newest GPUs are coming with Microslicked bolt carriers. In a nutshell, they are semi-self-lubricating as ceramic elements are imparted to the metal and wear smoother as the carrier moves.

evollep3
09-28-2009, 5:58 PM
Everyone here will tell you Addax which uses PWS piston systems is the way to go, but me personally i would go in this order and subject to change depending on length

LWRC
POF
Addax/PWS

Addax
09-28-2009, 7:07 PM
Hey folks,

another question for yall.

I remember reading a few opinions on the differences between the POF gas piston uppers vs the Addax gas piston uppers.

Some of the points mentioned were that the POF Predator rails were "too high". And I also remember something about the way the free-float handguard was installed on the POF, verses the way it was installed onto the Addax. (Or something like that).

Bottom line, some folks love their POF's, and some folks love their Addax GPU's.

I would like to hear the differences again, and would like to have some specifics.

I am considering an Addax GPU as a second weapon...and I would like to know "why".

No bashing, please. Just keep it down to FACTS and intelligent observations.

Thanks!!

In Christ: Raymond

The one thing you find during your research is that all of the different AR Piston Solutions work for different folks.

Some love POF, some love LWRC, some really love my Addax Gas Piston Uppers I build using the PWS piston system.

That being said, each of these systems operate in same general principle, but there are some major differences in the designs of the systems, and how the operate efficiently and effectively in various configurations and applications.

With our ATAC GPU we utilize the PWS long stroke piston system, and this system has been designed with hard, combat type applications in mind.

For example, the piston system does not require a gas adjustment, so you can pop on a sound suppressor, or use various types of ammunition much like you would on an M4 Carbine.

The Piston System has one moving part, not multiple moving parts.

The entire piston system and op-rod reside within a specially designed tube, which during operation assists in keeping the op-rod and piston aligned, which helps to keep carrier tilt to a minimum.

The recoil is much like a DI, since the dwell timing has been enhanced with the newly designed gas block and the long stroke of the piston.

The entire upper is low profile, so the gas block and piston tube reside under the top rail.

The Quad Rail system is not free float, instead, each side of the rail is like a rail panel, which can be removed with ease in case of damage, and with very simple tools.

The accuracy with our uppers is on par with the Mil-Spec M4 Carbines using the same Daniel Defense Cold Hammer Forged Barrels, and high quality Military Spec components we use.

We are normally shooting 2-2.5 MOA at 100 yards with good quality 55 grain XM193 (like Federal), and 1 MOA with match grade ammo. Our barrels are Mil-Spec 1:7 twist chrome lined (5.56 models).

No, the new piston system and the uppers we build, and that PWS builds are not precision sniper rifles or Camp Perry type rigs.

We build uppers to run and to provide good and very acceptable Combat Accuracy, that are reliable, that do not require much in maintenance, cleaning or lubrication, and it is very easy to service and clean when needed.

There are certain applications that are great for piston driven AR's, and that is why we here at Addax are focused on these configurations, which are Carbines with barrel lengths of 16" or shorter, in various calibers.

I hope my input helps, and if you have any other questions, please feel free to email me or call me. sales@adxtactical.com, 818-886-5008

Thank you for considering our uppers, and good luck in your decision.

Chris

(Some pics taken by Military Morons on a long term test unit they are currently evaluating)

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc137/addax/atac13.jpg

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc137/addax/atac2-1.jpg

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc137/addax/atac10.jpg

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc137/addax/atac21.jpg

818gtiguy
09-28-2009, 7:21 PM
ADDAX GPU FTW!

pacrimguru
09-28-2009, 8:40 PM
PO-what?! for my first hand impressions of the ADDAX ATAC Upper, see this thread:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=198055

Nessal
09-28-2009, 9:02 PM
Another vote for ADDAX.

JeffW
09-28-2009, 9:24 PM
I don't have an Addax, but I've been following about them here.

Most interesting to me is the treatment of the gas piston components, called Melontie QPQ. This probably reads like an advertisement but from reading some of the data it sounds like it really is the pinnacle of modern cost effective metal treatments.

http://www.burlingtoneng.com/melonite.html

I do have a POF upper, and it is a great upper. It is heaver than a standard upper, but to me it's an amazing piece of engineering. The NP3 coating on the interior is for solving a slightly different problem, but I can attest that it will feed at least 1k rounds of wolf steel core with no lube.

Cleanup with a piston is a snap as well.

The predator rails do give the POF a vertical offset, similar to the HK416.

My POF is the second most accurate upper I've shot, the first being a dedicated match rifle (oly arms sum 20" barrel 1 in 10 twist)

I already posted this once tonight, but it is relevant so here goes:

http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv33/jephjeph/DSC02116.jpg

supermario
09-28-2009, 10:37 PM
I would go with the ATAC, I had a chance to fondle it and I thought it was really light. I do have the Diablo upper and that works great. I would say Addax GPU. They feel light and sleek. Not big and bulky like the POF.

Unit74
09-29-2009, 12:16 AM
I have a new ATAC 16" and only had one gripe. After a few mags, the upper rail was very hot.

Other than that, all the guys who shot it, to include the range master and a SWAt guy fell in love with it. The price is the bigest turn off. But if you have the loot, I wouldn't shy you away from the ADDAX.

Never even seen a POF though.

NSR500
09-29-2009, 12:58 AM
I own an LWRC and am saving up for an Addax/PWS ATAC.
Each time I'm presented with getting a piston upper, POF just drops to the bottom of the list. It is not that they make a bad product, but I am not impressed with the way some of their "Bad" experiences are handled.
I've seen way too much drama played out sometimes over an issue with a POF system. If I dropped any amount of $ with a Company I expect a level of service in relation to what I spent.
With LWRC I've always received good product support. As for Addax; I've seen excellent communication, and service to the various gun forums out there, that I'd give them my $.

slowjonn
09-29-2009, 1:03 AM
Another vote for Addax. I bought one last year at SAR from Chris. It is my favorite, go-to gun.

X-NewYawker
09-29-2009, 6:29 AM
Addax.
Support the club, dude!




And it's great on top of that.

pacrimguru
09-29-2009, 7:38 AM
let's just say that POF was good-ish when it came out, but since then many other companies have upped the game in piston systems. ADDAX's ATAC is the newest evolution of them all and has just the right balance in terms of performance, reliability, and price. By now, POF is just outdated. It works, but why go with a 1st gen, when 3rd gen is out?

A BIG plus is that the guys at ADDAX are CalGunners as well!

Nessal
09-29-2009, 10:56 AM
Customer service from Addax is worth the price alone. The rest is just a bonus!

But seriously, I have received top-tier treatment by Addax and wouldn't have it any other way.

FeuerFrei
09-29-2009, 12:15 PM
POF builds a great upper.
Only con is that it takes forever to get your gear because of backlog.
I have run my gun very dry and it still keeps on going. Freaking energizer bunny. When compared to my DI uppers I rate these as a "go-to" tool for SHTF scenarios.
Oh yeah. It shoots every type of ammo including Wolf.
ADDAX seems to build some great guns too but I have no hands on experience with them.

fourXfour
09-29-2009, 12:45 PM
When I pay off my credit card, I'm picking up the ATAC upper. I really like the long stroke design. I'm not really in love with the quad rail, I'd prefer a MOE forend.

BHPFan
09-29-2009, 12:52 PM
I have to go with Addax:
1) They are a local in-state company (SoCal) and a Calguns member and supporter.
2) They will always get back to you on any questions you have.
3) Related to #2, excellent customer service.
4) You can get your upper setup or customized any way you want it for pretty much the same price as POF and LWRC.

evollep3
09-29-2009, 3:06 PM
I think all are great uppers but what i cant stand is how so many talk down on POF or LWRC I shot all three and like i have said before depending on purpose your choice can vary from there but please don't think of LWRC or POF anything less than each other each have there own innovated way of being different or better

SMGLee
09-29-2009, 3:19 PM
Have Addax build you a PWS system with Daniel Defense lite rail.

Proven system, light weight, accurate and Daniel Defense build one of the best free float system on the market.

BHPFan
09-29-2009, 3:35 PM
I think all are great uppers but what i cant stand is how so many talk down on POF or LWRC I shot all three and like i have said before depending on purpose your choice can vary from there but please don't think of LWRC or POF anything less than each other each have there own innovated way of being different or better


Given a choice of one of the 3 or more brands of a particular product and they all have same great quality, then I choose which one gives me the best customer service. Then, I will choose based on other intangibles (manufacturing location, are they a supporter of Cal owners like us or of Calguns?, turn around time, price).

aplinker
09-29-2009, 5:16 PM
Why are you considering only a POF or Addax?

What will the rifle be used for?

Why do you want a piston rifle?

RaymondMillbrae
09-29-2009, 6:19 PM
I'un-no. :confused:

Why do folks like the Beretta inertia system? (Low maintenance, relaible unto death).

In Christ: Raymond

bomb_on_bus
09-29-2009, 6:45 PM
I think all are great uppers but what i cant stand is how so many talk down on POF or LWRC I shot all three and like i have said before depending on purpose your choice can vary from there but please don't think of LWRC or POF anything less than each other each have there own innovated way of being different or better


+1

I have been a POF customer for years and have shot all the other brands LWRC, ADDAX, M4 with Adams Arms set up and to me I liked POF a little more just for the accuracy I can get outta my guns.

I liked the other setups just as well when accuracy isn't factored in. To me that was what it came down to. The prices are all similar and so are the headaches related to GP setups.

If I wanted to go through the trouble of rebarreling one of the other platofrms then I would be running that setup. But since thats already an option with POF I go through them.

This is like putting up MOPARS against Chevys, against Fords and seeing who is the best with pros and cons for each.

All I can honestly say is if you have the resources or know some people who have the rifle brands I would try them all and come to your own conclusion.

Some people are diehard fans of one make and some own a mix of everything.

problemchild
09-29-2009, 8:23 PM
2.5 inch moa?

Is that a shotgun or a rifle?

Pof all the way and shoot inside a dime.

http://www.michaelkdickson.com/webjunk/POF308/_U6L0252a.jpg

evollep3
09-29-2009, 8:53 PM
let's just say that POF was good-ish when it came out, but since then many other companies have upped the game in piston systems. ADDAX's ATAC is the newest evolution of them all and has just the right balance in terms of performance, reliability, and price. By now, POF is just outdated. It works, but why go with a 1st gen, when 3rd gen is out?

A BIG plus is that the guys at ADDAX are CalGunners as well!

That is where you are very wrong my friend POF has constanley made upgrade from their 1st generation piston style upper that was the talk of town which I still have after atleast 10,000 rounds throught her and that was before the exo coated bolt carrier lighter predator rail better fluting of barrel or roll cam pin. POF is proven and most people who cried wolf about pof was just a bunch of babies such as the minor gauging from the cam pin which was really all cosmetic and guess what lwrc had it share of the same problem at one point and both companies came out with a fix Addax/PWS are great uppers and their designs are simular but yet night and day different. And plus out of all the comapines listed in the LAR308 pattern not counting fulton in the picture POF is hands down the best IMO BTW Chris is the man and I still have plans for another pws upper

Addax
09-29-2009, 9:30 PM
2.5 inch moa?

Is that a shotgun or a rifle?

Pof all the way and shoot inside a dime.



What kind of groups do you expect to achieve in a Combat Carbine with a 14.5" or 16" mil-spec 1:7 twist chrome lined barrel shooting 55 grain ammunition?

2-2.5" is what we average at 100 yards, just like many mil-spec M4 carbines with a similar barrel shooting the same type of 55 grain 5.56 ammunition.

1" groups is what we shoot with match ammunition (69 grain) at 100 yards.

Sub MOA Piston Driven SPR Uppers, No problem.. I have built quite a few.

I have built 16" & 18" piston driven SPR's with medium contour stainless barrels that can shoot dime sized groups

I prefer the DI Gas System for SPR configurations, but if a customers wants a piston driven SPR, I can build it.

Chris

Addax
09-29-2009, 9:42 PM
I think all are great uppers but what i cant stand is how so many talk down on POF or LWRC I shot all three and like i have said before depending on purpose your choice can vary from there but please don't think of LWRC or POF anything less than each other each have there own innovated way of being different or better

There are differences with the uppers, and piston system designs, and that is what sets everyone apart in the AR Piston market.

For example, comparing my 14.5" ATAC GPU to an 18" POF SPR upper is not an apples to apples comparison.

The ATAC is a keep it simple, M4 on steroids piston driven upper. It is not marketed as a precision piston driven upper.

There are pro's and con's to everyone's designs, and many users love their POF's, LWRC's, Addax GPU's.

Chris

evollep3
09-29-2009, 9:43 PM
What kind of groups do you expect to achieve in a Combat Carbine with a 14.5" or 16" mil-spec 1:7 twist chrome lined barrel shooting 55 grain ammunition?

2-2.5" is what we average at 100 yards, just like many mil-spec M4 carbines with a similar barrel shooting the same type of 55 grain 5.56 ammunition.

1" groups is what we shoot with match ammunition (69 grain) at 100 yards.

Sub MOA Piston Driven SPR Uppers, No problem.. I have built quite a few.

I have built 16" & 18" piston driven SPR's with medium contour stainless barrels that can shoot dime sized groups

I prefer the DI Gas System for SPR configurations, but if a customers wants a piston driven SPR, I can build it.

Chris

do you have pics of the SPR

evollep3
09-29-2009, 9:44 PM
There are differences with the uppers, and piston system designs, and that is what sets everyone apart in the AR Piston market.

For example, comparing my 14.5" ATAC GPU to an 18" POF SPR upper is not an apples to apples comparison.

The ATAC is a keep it simple, M4 on steroids piston driven upper. It is not marketed as a precision piston driven upper.

There are pro's and con's to everyone's designs, and many users love their POF's, LWRC's, Addax GPU's.

Chris

yes i understand that is why i said they are all the same (Piston design) yet day and night difference

bondmid003
09-29-2009, 9:46 PM
Chris what is the difference between your ATAC Grendel Upper and the ATAC 6.8 SPCII Upper?

Addax
09-29-2009, 9:48 PM
do you have pics of the SPR

One of my recent builds in 6.8SPC for a LE customer.

I used 18" White Oak-Shilen 4 groove 1:11 twist Mid-Length gas barrel.
DD 12.0 FSPM Lite Rail, and BRO Billet Upper Receiver.
PWS Short Stroke Piston System.

My customer had my logo laser engraved on his lower.

He is currently conducting accuracy testing, and he will provide me pics and info. as soon as he is done.

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc137/addax/DSC00399_2.jpg

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc137/addax/DSC00402_2.jpg

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc137/addax/DSC00408_2.jpg

blindluck
09-29-2009, 9:51 PM
pm sent to OP.

evollep3
09-29-2009, 9:51 PM
One of my recent builds in 6.8SPC for a LE customer.

I used 18" White Oak-Shilen 4 groove 1:11 twist Mid-Length gas barrel.
DD 12.0 FSPM Lite Rail, and BRO Billet Upper Receiver.
PWS Short Stroke Piston System.

My customer had my logo laser engraved on his lower.

He is currently conducting accuracy testing, and he will provide me pics and info. as soon as he is done.

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc137/addax/DSC00399_2.jpg

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc137/addax/DSC00402_2.jpg

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc137/addax/DSC00408_2.jpg

very nice chris

bondmid003
09-29-2009, 9:52 PM
Chris, any word on my question?

Addax
09-29-2009, 9:54 PM
Chris what is the difference between your ATAC Grendel Upper and the ATAC 6.8 SPCII Upper?

Other than caliber.

The 6.5 Grendel Upper is built with a Sabre Defence chrome lined 16" Mil-Spec barrel.

The 6.8 SPC uppers are built with White Oak-Shilen stainless barrels, and we have these Cerakoted in Graphite Black.

We will eventually offer the 6.5 ATAC GPU with an Alexander Arms stainless barrel once we can get our backorder filled from AA.

Chris

RaymondMillbrae
09-30-2009, 3:43 AM
If I may ask...what is the difference between a "heavy contoured barrel" and a "medium contoured barrel"?

Are there pros and cons to each?

Where would you benefit from a heavy contoured barrel, and where would you benefit with a medium contoured barrel?

Thanks, just trying to edumacate myself.

In Christ: Raymond

NSR500
09-30-2009, 5:20 AM
Difference in contours would be weight/thickness of the profile/cut.
As for the effects, a barrel with more material will handle heat differently than one with less material. The barrel profiles between light, medium, and heavy handle barrel whip differently too.
If you want to really give yourself a headache, start thinking about barrel lengths, twist rates, rifling, etc...

bomb_on_bus
09-30-2009, 9:09 AM
2.5 inch moa?

Is that a shotgun or a rifle?

Pof all the way and shoot inside a dime.

http://www.michaelkdickson.com/webjunk/POF308/_U6L0252a.jpg


One sick looking setup!

I am pretty much running the same thing now.

American Defense 30mm scope mount.
Leupold mk4 3.5x10x40.
Magpul 308 PRS stock.
20inch 308 POF gun.

xxG3xx
09-30-2009, 1:35 PM
I would go with addax....but I don't like the way the new rails look...I like the older style.

RaymondMillbrae
09-30-2009, 6:46 PM
Thanks for all the responses, folks.

It's been an informative thread.

In Christ: Raymond

tvfreakarms
10-30-2009, 2:54 AM
What is the difference between a short stroke vs. a long stroke gas piston system? Is one style better than the other?

THT
10-30-2009, 3:38 AM
What is the difference between a short stroke vs. a long stroke gas piston system? Is one style better than the other?

Military Morons has a nice write-up:

Now we get to the heart of the ATAC; the long-stroke piston system. As I mentioned above, the system is very similar in both looks and operation to the AK system. The gas block has no adjustment. It bleeds gas from the barrel port into the gas block, which expands and pushes the piston to the rear. When the piston head moves past a certain point, gas is bled out through a port at the bottom of the piston tube, above the barrel. The gas tube hole in the front of the upper receiver has been opened up to accept the piston.

Why did PWS come up with this new system? Simplification and ease of maintenance. When looking at the short stroke system, one of the drawbacks is that the front knob and piston would become difficult to remove due to carbon build up. The knob would need a wrench to turn it, and the piston would need to be pushed out of the piston tube from the back by the operating rod. Note that a sticky piston that didn't move freely back and forth under its own weight in the piston tube didn't affect function while shooting. There were also small parts in the short-stroke system.

http://www.militarymorons.com/weapons/ar.uppers3.html

X-NewYawker
10-30-2009, 7:14 AM
The new Addax gas system does everything I want.