PDA

View Full Version : Still looking for .223?


K1LLROI
09-28-2009, 10:11 AM
Are some people still in desperate need of this caliber.? Has the craze ended?

justin_5585
09-28-2009, 10:13 AM
are you talking ammo? or for the rifle's themselves? Either way, it is getting easier, but it's still not like it was a year ago.

Untamed1972
09-28-2009, 10:14 AM
.223 is large quantity is pretty easy to come by online these days. Sportsmansguide.com has plenty of all different grades. 55gr, brass cased for about $350 per 1000rd.

Beelzy
09-28-2009, 10:30 AM
I picked up a case PMC Bronze for $300.00 at the last Gunshow.

45acp Ammo on the other hand is still hard to find at a good price.

K1LLROI
09-28-2009, 10:35 AM
I meant ammo. I'm just asking to see how it is compared to some time ago when it was so scarce.

I picked mine up when things were crazier than now..it was hard but the stock is there..

I see it a lot more readily available. Compared to months ago when the shelves were empty for that caliber.

Also wanted to see if anyone really needs it on here..could point them in the right direction..

Yup. 45 is another story.

wash
09-28-2009, 11:09 AM
I bought a case of 9mm and a case of .223 at the last gun show, both made by PMC.

Beside the $100 price difference, the main thing I noticed is that the case of 9mm was much heavier. It was the 147 grain bullets compared to 55 grain. Then I started to wonder, how is the 9mm cheaper with so much more copper and lead?

The .223 case certainly must cost a little more to make and making a spitzer bullet might be a little harder than round nose ball, and there is more powder in .223, but does that add up to $0.10 a round? I doubt it. What about the 92 grains of lead and copper saved in the light weight bullet?

Any way, I am disappointed in the cost of the .223 but the availability seems much better than the spring gun show when Miwall sold out of .223 very quickly.

gregorylucas
09-28-2009, 11:22 AM
Try here. (http://www.aimsurplus.com) At aimsurplus.com.

Greg

bohoki
09-28-2009, 2:14 PM
i have no trouble finding the ammo for $10 a box

anything under $6 a box is difficult

50 cents a shot is annoying

DarkHorse
09-28-2009, 3:35 PM
I bought a case of 9mm and a case of .223 at the last gun show, both made by PMC.

Beside the $100 price difference, the main thing I noticed is that the case of 9mm was much heavier. It was the 147 grain bullets compared to 55 grain. Then I started to wonder, how is the 9mm cheaper with so much more copper and lead?

The .223 case certainly must cost a little more to make and making a spitzer bullet might be a little harder than round nose ball, and there is more powder in .223, but does that add up to $0.10 a round? I doubt it. What about the 92 grains of lead and copper saved in the light weight bullet?

Any way, I am disappointed in the cost of the .223 but the availability seems much better than the spring gun show when Miwall sold out of .223 very quickly.

It's all in the brass. Just because you don't believe it doesn't make it not true. Lead is cheap, and copper jacketing probably has very little difference b/n the two.

.223 Brass (http://www.grafs.com/product/254299) - $400.03/2000 = 0.200015 ea.
9mm brass (http://www.grafs.com/product/254303) - $208.63/2000 = 0.104315 ea.
brass difference - +0.0957 ea. (.223)

.223 bullet (http://www.grafs.com/product/258030) - $156.43/2000 = 0.078215 ea.
9mm bullet (http://www.grafs.com/product/256277) - $180.79/2000 = 0.090395
bullet difference - -0.01218 (.223)

.223 powder (http://www.grafs.com/product/273594) - $140.99/2074 rounds@ 27.0 gr = 0.06797 ea.
9mm powder (http://www.grafs.com/product/274054) - $124.99/14,736 rounds @ 3.8 gr = 0.00848 ea.
powder difference - +0.05949 (.223)

.223 total - 0.20+0.07+0.06 = 0.33
9mm total - 0.10+0.09+0.01 = 0.20

Net difference - +0.13 (.223) per round
x1000 rounds = $130.00

xibunkrlilkidsx
09-28-2009, 4:00 PM
My local turners has had a lot of 5.56 and .223 winchester rounds in large quantities, few cases of the shelf out plus some down below.

devildog999
09-28-2009, 9:40 PM
I'm seeing it around a bit more often, hopefully that is a good thing

snupples
09-28-2009, 10:03 PM
It's going to shoot through the roof again if the ammo bill isn't vetoed.

wash
09-29-2009, 7:45 AM
It's all in the brass. Just because you don't believe it doesn't make it not true. Lead is cheap, and copper jacketing probably has very little difference b/n the two.

.223 Brass (http://www.grafs.com/product/254299) - $400.03/2000 = 0.200015 ea.
9mm brass (http://www.grafs.com/product/254303) - $208.63/2000 = 0.104315 ea.
brass difference - +0.0957 ea. (.223)
Well, those are retail prices and the .223 is probably more expensive because if you scrounge you can get as much once fired 9mm brass as you want at the local gun range.

For manufacturing costs, I bet .223 brass isn't very much more costly.

DarkHorse
09-29-2009, 10:17 AM
Well, those are retail prices and the .223 is probably more expensive because if you scrounge you can get as much once fired 9mm brass as you want at the local gun range.

For manufacturing costs, I bet .223 brass isn't very much more costly.

Yes, those are retail prices. You mentioned factory ammo, so I compared as closely as I could how much a home reloader would spend to make equal amounts of ammo from new components, in order to compare to factory ammo. Although, I didn't account for primers because they cost the same for rifle or pistol.

You weren't talking about scrounged ammo, you mentioned factory ammo. While PMC may pay less than we do for components, but the ratio of cost for .223 to 9mm would still be about the same. .223 costs more to manufacture due to more brass and gunpowder. The difference of lead used is insignificant compared to this. There's 2-3x as much brass used in a .223 than a 9mm case, and 7-8x as much powder, while the 9mm bullet is only 2.5x heavier. Call up a scrapyard and ask them their prices for bulk lead and yellow brass if you don't believe me.

9mm brass is also easier to form, as it is a straight-walled case, whereas .223 is a bottle-necked design, meaning there are more surfaces to work and specifications to meet. This adds to manufacturing costs.

I have shown that a person reloading at home will spend more money on .223 than 9mm, based merely on the costs of new components. Nobody that reloads would argue this point.
Can you show me that factory produced .223 brass costs the same as 9mm brass?

5ohguy
09-29-2009, 10:35 AM
I see 223 all over the place now. If I could find some 45 I'd be happy.

wash
09-29-2009, 12:28 PM
Yes, those are retail prices. You mentioned factory ammo, so I compared as closely as I could how much a home reloader would spend to make equal amounts of ammo from new components, in order to compare to factory ammo. Although, I didn't account for primers because they cost the same for rifle or pistol.

You weren't talking about scrounged ammo, you mentioned factory ammo. While PMC may pay less than we do for components, but the ratio of cost for .223 to 9mm would still be about the same. .223 costs more to manufacture due to more brass and gunpowder. The difference of lead used is insignificant compared to this. There's 2-3x as much brass used in a .223 than a 9mm case, and 7-8x as much powder, while the 9mm bullet is only 2.5x heavier. Call up a scrapyard and ask them their prices for bulk lead and yellow brass if you don't believe me.

9mm brass is also easier to form, as it is a straight-walled case, whereas .223 is a bottle-necked design, meaning there are more surfaces to work and specifications to meet. This adds to manufacturing costs.

I have shown that a person reloading at home will spend more money on .223 than 9mm, based merely on the costs of new components. Nobody that reloads would argue this point.
Can you show me that factory produced .223 brass costs the same as 9mm brass?
Retail prices are set by supply and demand, can we agree on that?

If there is more demand for .223 brass, it's price and profit margin will be higher. Thus, the easy availability of once fired 9mm brass is probably quite relevant.

But there is more to it. New brass has to sell for at least 50% gross margin, I wouldn't be surprised at 75% gross margin, so the price difference is at most 1/2 of your number but I would guess closer to 1/4 and possibly less.

That is all speculation but based on a good educated guess.

There isn't going to be a solid answer unless we can get an ammo manufacturer to talk about their costs and margins.

slappomatt
09-29-2009, 12:30 PM
I'm so glad I don't own a .45 :) too damn $ to shoot regularly.

Bizcuits
09-29-2009, 1:18 PM
Haven't found any at the local walmarts.

DarkHorse
09-29-2009, 2:15 PM
1) Retail prices are set by supply and demand, can we agree on that?

2) If there is more demand for .223 brass, it's price and profit margin will be higher. Thus, the easy availability of once fired 9mm brass is probably quite relevant.

3) But there is more to it. New brass has to sell for at least 50% gross margin, I wouldn't be surprised at 75% gross margin, so the price difference is at most 1/2 of your number but I would guess closer to 1/4 and possibly less.

That is all speculation but based on a good educated guess.

There isn't going to be a solid answer unless we can get an ammo manufacturer to talk about their costs and margins.

1) Under ordinary circumstances, agreed. I probably shouldn't have brought up retail, but oh well.

2) Are you saying that since reloaders have access to used 9mm brass, they don't purchase new, thus driving down prices of new brass, explaining the prices I found online? I agree with that, and concede that point.
But, you were talking about factory ammunition. PMC (assuming they form their own brass, which I have no clue about) pays for large amounts of brass, then forms it into different cases. They pay the same amount for brass going into the .223 mold as the brass going into the 9mm mold (or billets? IDK). It seems logical that a case that uses more material and requires more forming steps has a higher cost of manufacture, which of course gets passed on to the consumer. Agreed? How much more is obviously subject to debate:p

3) If I understand the terminology, this means that while we pay $0.20 for .223 brass, it costs the manufacturer $0.05, correct? If so, then why would 9mm brass be at a lower margin? New brass is new brass, and you said the margin should be 50-75%. Is that an across-the-board figure, or just for the rifle brass? Are you saying that it is 50-75% for .223, but less, perhaps 10-15%, for 9mm, due to abundant used brass? Again, PMC buys brass in bulk, so I don't think used 9mm brass affects their pricing.

Basically, I contend that the extra forming of brass, and extra weight of brass & gunpowder for .223 will more than offset the extra weight of copper & lead for a 9mm. Enough to make $0.10/round not a big deal to me. YMMV

For a while, .45 and .223 cost about the same. Now .223 is dropping but .45 isn't.

Don't forget to call/write the Governor about AB962 and SB585. Otherwise, none of this really matters. <---This is for everybody who reads this thread. Don't think it doesn't apply to you.

Untamed1972
09-29-2009, 2:23 PM
For you .45 guys you might consider a trip out of state to stock up. A visit to a recent gunshow in AZ I saw pallets of .45 and no crazy lines and mad rush on the ammo tables. The vendor said they were selling steady but expected to have enough to last all weekend.....as opposed to selling out in the first 2 hours like the SoCal shows have been doing lately. Get some buddies together, split gas and cheap motel room on a friday night and hit the show Sat. morning and load up and be back home in time for dinner. Prices were much better too.....so what you'd save on cost of the ammo would more then pay for the gas to go get it.

evidens83
09-29-2009, 2:50 PM
I'm pretty sure the 223 craze is dying down because this whole past week my local Wal Mart has been stacked deep with 223. Finding the same in 45 is a whole another story unfortunately. Been itching to take my 45s out to the range but I cant justify buying the reloads at the range when I know I can get quality WWB for so much cheaper. Just gonna have to hold off for now and hopefully the supply will finally keep up with our demand.

wash
09-29-2009, 3:07 PM
1) Under ordinary circumstances, agreed. I probably shouldn't have brought up retail, but oh well.

2) Are you saying that since reloaders have access to used 9mm brass, they don't purchase new, thus driving down prices of new brass, explaining the prices I found online? I agree with that, and concede that point.
But, you were talking about factory ammunition. PMC (assuming they form their own brass, which I have no clue about) pays for large amounts of brass, then forms it into different cases. They pay the same amount for brass going into the .223 mold as the brass going into the 9mm mold (or billets? IDK). It seems logical that a case that uses more material and requires more forming steps has a higher cost of manufacture, which of course gets passed on to the consumer. Agreed? How much more is obviously subject to debate:p

3) If I understand the terminology, this means that while we pay $0.20 for .223 brass, it costs the manufacturer $0.05, correct? If so, then why would 9mm brass be at a lower margin? New brass is new brass, and you said the margin should be 50-75%. Is that an across-the-board figure, or just for the rifle brass? Are you saying that it is 50-75% for .223, but less, perhaps 10-15%, for 9mm, due to abundant used brass? Again, PMC buys brass in bulk, so I don't think used 9mm brass affects their pricing.

Basically, I contend that the extra forming of brass, and extra weight of brass & gunpowder for .223 will more than offset the extra weight of copper & lead for a 9mm. Enough to make $0.10/round not a big deal to me. YMMV

For a while, .45 and .223 cost about the same. Now .223 is dropping but .45 isn't.

Don't forget to call/write the Governor about AB962 and SB585. Otherwise, none of this really matters. <---This is for everybody who reads this thread. Don't think it doesn't apply to you.
I'm sure that .223 brass costs more to make, but if .223 brass costs $0.05 and 9mm brass is $0.02, that amounts to $30.00 a case and then you can subtract the extra 92,000 grains of lead and copper from that.

The numbers just don't make sense to me.

DarkHorse
09-29-2009, 5:26 PM
I'm sure that .223 brass costs more to make, but if .223 brass costs $0.05 and 9mm brass is $0.02, that amounts to $30.00 a case and then you can subtract the extra 92,000 grains of lead and copper from that.

The numbers just don't make sense to me.

Don't forget to add in the 23,200 grains of gunpowder.

Still might not be $0.10, but it'd be closer.

I remember when everybody and their mother's brother had .223 for less than $4/box. Sigh...