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View Full Version : Military, AWs, CCW and California - Update 24 May!


Adventurer_96
04-06-2005, 8:37 PM
I spoke to the CA DOJ last week and got forms to register my AWs for an upcoming move to California in the military. It is apparently quite easy and there may even be a woman whose whole job is handling these registrations. I'll post the contact number for her in the coming days here.

One sticky point. Two separate clerks in the DOJ stated that it would be OK for me to move into the state with my hicap magazines for my weapons, both handgun and AWs as long as they were for my personal use. At issue is concealed carry, I'm planning on using a Glock 19C w/a 17 round magazine which I'll bring with me. I'll draft a letter and send it out to the DOJ for confirmation so I can have some kind of documentation. My intent was to have a bill of sale for my Glock from out of state so that (heaven forbid) something were to happen where I had to use the pistol I could show that this hicap was legally purchased and imported into CA.

This move isn't starting out well...

Rumpled
04-06-2005, 9:58 PM
Apparently, if you're DOD on active duty, bringing in AW's (CA definition, not mine) can be done. As far as CCW. I'm pretty sure that's still up to the Chief LEO of wherever you move to - good Frickin' luck with that!

Trader Jack
04-06-2005, 10:04 PM
You had better get that in writing from the DOJ.

To my knowledge there is way you can legally bring hipcaps into Calif. Pre owned or not.

The only way that hicaps can be legal is if they were owned by you as a Calif. resident before the ban. The fact that you are in the military and NOT a Calif. resident cuts no ice.

icormba
04-06-2005, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by Trader Jack:
You had better get that in writing from the DOJ.

To my knowledge there is way you can legally bring hipcaps into Calif. Pre owned or not.

The only way that hicaps can be legal is if they were owned by you as a Calif. resident before the ban. The fact that you are in the military and NOT a Calif. resident cuts no ice.

depends on what he/she does in the military and who he/or she is.


http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/infobuls/0105.pdf

according to the PDF link, Military is considered "Law Enforcement". i.e. MP's

bwiese
04-06-2005, 11:27 PM
TraderJack is right: while there are now procedures for military folks to specially reg their AWs while stationed in CA, there's no provision for importation of hicap mags.

Chris/icormba's comment that the military is considered like LE is not applicable here. The military certainly does NOT need CA's permission to bring in AWs into CA.

This reg procedure is merely convenience/ courtesy for servicemen(women) to be stationed in CA: this is for their PERSONALLY owned AWs, etc., not their DUTY weapons. Kinda like LEO exemption for personal AWs.

An MP, Shore Patrol, NIS agent, etc all would have duty weapons issued. They do not need CA's permission any more than say, an FBI agent would.

I haven't seen a law that exempts or permits importation of personally owned hicap mags. This is separate law from permitting AWs. DOJ would be manufacturing new law if they said it was allowed: a DA could certainly bring the charge of illegal mag possession/importation...

Bill Wiese
San Jose

icormba
04-07-2005, 12:01 AM
Originally posted by bwiese:

Chris/icormba's comment that the military is considered like LE is not applicable here. The military certainly does NOT need CA's permission to bring in AWs into CA.

Bill Wiese
San Jose

I should have specified...
I was talking about mags, not AW.

Adventurer_96,
do what you plan, get permission, see what the DOJ gives you in writing... if they say ok, then your ok. Later if they say your not? then... well, that's been known to happen too.

Mike Searson
04-07-2005, 7:43 AM
An MP, Shore Patrol, NIS agent, etc all would have duty weapons issued. They do not need CA's permission any more than say, an FBI agent would
NIS (now NCIS) agents are not Military Personnel. They are federal law enforcement.

Most local law enforcement do not recognize MP's or SP's as law enforcement off base.

I personally witnessed 2 Oceanside cops harass and arrest a Marine MP who left his PR24 in plain view on his back seat when he was stopped on his way home from work one night.

Spotted Owl
04-08-2005, 6:53 AM
I personally witnessed 2 Oceanside cops harass and arrest a Marine MP who left his PR24 in plain view on his back seat when he was stopped on his way home from work one night.

Since when did "To Protect and to Serve" devolve into "To Harass and Annoy"?

Mike Searson
04-08-2005, 8:15 AM
Originally posted by Spotted Owl:
Since when did "To Protect and to Serve" devolve into "To Harass and Annoy"?

This was 15 years ago. Oceanslime's PD was a very corrupt force at the time and many of them simply got off on harassing Marines.

I remember thinking, "Jeez...it's just a plastic stick...what would they do if he still had his Beretta on him?"

Not all Law Enforcement is like this...and I'm not even talking about corruption, etc.

Just that some cops don't care if you're military or not and even if you're an MP they do not see you as an equal or extend professional courtesy, etc.

Bacon
04-10-2005, 9:15 AM
Adventurer,
If I were active Military and moving to California with personal firearms that are legal in the rest of the States, I'd definitely make sure my membership in the NRA and/or GOA is current. That way you would have access to good attorneys. Also, you would have support if some dumb cop (and there are plenty of 'em, especially the young ones) decides he doesn't like you.

Steve
SF, CA

bwiese
04-10-2005, 9:49 AM
Adventurer,
If I were active Military and moving to California with personal firearms that are legal in the rest of the States, I'd definitely make sure my membership in the NRA and/or GOA is current. That way you would have access to good attorneys. Also, you would have support if some dumb cop (and there are plenty of 'em, especially the young ones) decides he doesn't like you.
Steve

Not really. There's only a couple as I recall. The NRA-affil. lawyers may call you back if you have a question, supply some basic info, etc.

But they can't/won't represent you, bail you out, etc. without you paying - NRA membership is not a legal insurance/legal retainer. Something legally "interesting" might get their (and NRA's) attention but this is rarity.

Otherwise NRA'd be called for every gun bust!

BTW these guys may be out of your actual area too. When you need a lawyer, it's best to have a local one that knows the 'system'.

Back to the subject: even if I were able to legally bring in AWs into CA due to my being in military, I would NOT bring in hicaps. And Cal DOJ does NOT have legal authority to change the law (banning imports of hicap mags) even if they say they do.


Bill Wiese
San Jose

04-10-2005, 8:56 PM
Originally posted by Mike Searson:
This was 15 years ago. <span class="ev_code_RED">Oceanslime's</span> PD was a very corrupt force at the time and many of them simply got off on harassing Marines.

I would've also accepted Oceancrime as an alternate slur in the above.


http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

imported_11Z50
04-10-2005, 9:16 PM
There are very few, if any exemptions for PRK military folk. While you can import your stuff into the PRK when you do a PCS move, IMHO you are asking for trouble if you do. Yes, alot of cops are known for harrassing innocent folks and then walking away laughing. Unless I knew I was going to be stationed here for many years, and not get deployed (which is hard to say nowadays) I would leave the AW's where they are and bite the bullet. As for a ccw, it varies drastically on where your'e going to live. Generally though, I wouldn't count on getting one based on simply being a military guy.

Bacon
04-10-2005, 9:40 PM
bwiese posted:
But they can't/won't represent you, bail you out, etc. without you paying - NRA membership is not a legal insurance/legal retainer.

I'm well aware of that Bill. If you look at my post I never claimed that. The NRA can point you to some attorneys. Please don't read things into my post.

Steve

Adventurer_96
04-11-2005, 5:18 PM
Thanks for all the replies, guys.

bwiese
04-13-2005, 10:41 AM
I originally wrote:
But they can't/won't represent you, bail you out, etc. without you paying - NRA membership is not a legal insurance/legal retainer.

Bacon (Steve) wrote:
I'm well aware of that Bill. If you look at my post I never claimed that. The NRA can point you to some attorneys. Please don't read things into my post.

Sorry - but someone else reading your post could well've thought NRA had some legal fund, etc.

I love the NRA, but I'm not sure the lawyers the NRA would point you to would necessarily be the RIGHT ones. These were the guys that just submitted their names to NRA to drum up business, for fraternal reasons, etc.

If _I_ were involved in a gun-related criminal case, I'd rather have a GOOD regular criminal lawyer familiar w/local or Fed court system, than someone who overspecializes. Any good laywer can read & digest the gun laws on the books; they're fairly clear-cut for most things. Borderline situations just require more research (& costs). The real challenges to most gun charges will not involve detailed gun laws but knowledge of illegal searches, consent issues, rules of evidence, trial procedure, etc.


Bill Wiese
San Jose

Bacon
04-16-2005, 9:08 PM
That's a good point Bill. A local attorney would certainly be more familiar with the judges and how things work.

Steve

Adventurer_96
04-20-2005, 2:57 PM
Yolanda Garcia
Criminal Intelligence Specialist
Department of Justice, Firearms Division
P.O. Box 820200
Sacramento, CA 94203-0200

I don't have the phone number but if you use the phone number on the DOJ's website about registering handguns, they can transfer you.

bwiese
04-21-2005, 10:24 AM
Adventurer...

And what does sweet Yolanda (above) have to offer?

Sounds like she's a front-desk clerk. Can't speak legally for DOJ, etc.

Bill Wiese
San Jose

Adventurer_96
04-21-2005, 2:14 PM
She processes Military Assault Weapons Permits (MAWPs) for inbound AD military.

What do you mean she can't speak legally for the DOJ? If she issues a MAWP, that sounds legal to me.

bwiese
04-21-2005, 3:32 PM
Originally posted by Adventurer_96:
She processes Military Assault Weapons Permits (MAWPs) for inbound AD military.

What do you mean she can't speak legally for the DOJ? If she issues a MAWP, that sounds legal to me.

Oh, I thought you were talking about asking her legal questions. If you get her MAWP from her, that's fine. That's a mere issue of, Are you in the military? OK, give him an MAWP.

Never rely on an 'analyst' for legal advice. They're just form-filler-outers.

I'm certain she'd have no knowledge of whether hicaps you brought in with your AWs would be legal and her head would spin - or she'd just give you the wrong answer.


Bill Wiese
San Jose

Adventurer_96
04-21-2005, 5:22 PM
Bill, it seems we've got that cleared up.

Let me say that I am going to adhere to every law 100%, regardless of how I feel about it. I hope that my letter to the CA DOJ is answered by someone who has the ability to answer for the Department.

Can you keep hicaps if you're a Type 1 FFL?

I'm saddened that I'm already looking forward to leaving CA based upon the many and myriad laws that are already driving me crazy.

bwiese
04-23-2005, 9:34 AM
Adventurer...

So did you find out anything about hicaps for your specific situation?

I believe a reg. FFL in CA needs a hicap mag permit from Cal DOJ to deal in or even accept hicaps from trade-in guns, etc.

Regards Bill
San Jose

Adventurer_96
04-24-2005, 9:04 AM
The letter was mailed out this week, I'm not expecting to hear anything for at least two weeks since I'm dealing with a government bureaucracy. I'll make sure I post the reply as soon as I get it.

Adventurer_96
05-24-2005, 9:52 PM
I spoke with DOJ today, and they never received my letter, go figure. I faxed it over to Ms. Garcia, and in the meantime spoke to an officer by the name of Witt, I believe. He confirmed that there is no way to import high capacity magazines (over 10 rounds) as a military member being stationed in the state.Assault weapons are OK as long as you register them but you can't have magazines. How stupid is that???

He did suggest that I store them on base. I didn't point out to him the issue of getting from the state line to the base, but I did mention that the base isn't set up to accept storage of magazines for extended periods of time. I'm not even sure if I could keep my AWs on the base in the armory if I'm living out in town. I explained to him that it's a little unreasonable to allow the weapons without the magazines, but I realize he's only in enforcement and that the law would have to be changed.

The answer? Become a CA dealer w/FFL and high capacity magazine permit. I'd intended to open a gun business at some point, and after today's conversation there seems like I'll be going through the firey hoops after I arrive in CA.

This is an idiotic law. I'll make sure this is my example to the non-gunowners out there as to why gun laws are reaching ridiculous levels.

50 Freak
05-24-2005, 10:21 PM
Welcome to California.

Land of the fruits and nuts.