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View Full Version : GB-Sales California Bushmaster vs. The Vulcan/Hesse California V-15


Technical Ted
03-05-2005, 1:29 PM
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Technical Ted
03-05-2005, 1:29 PM
xxxxxxxxxx

maxicon
03-05-2005, 2:23 PM
For a bit of price perspective, I spoke to someone at Fab 10 recently, and they're talking about the possibility of only selling assembled lowers to avoid perceived problems with people botching the assembly or using low-quality parts.

The informal price they gave me for direct sales to an end-user was $425 assembled with no stock, and add $100 for a stock.

This wasn't an official price or anything, but that was the word.

LongBch_SigP226
03-05-2005, 3:56 PM
BUSHMASTER- M4A3 Type Carbine (16", 1:9 Twist) with 4-Position

Stock: $1649



BUSHMASTER- M4A2 Type Carbine (16", 1:9 Twist) w/Fixed Carry

Handle and 4-Position Stock: $1549



BUSHMASTER- AR15A3 Type Rifle (20", 1:9) w/Fixed Stock: $1649



BUSHMASTER- AR15A2 Type Rifle (20", 1:9) w/Fixed Carry Handle and

Fixed Stock: $1549

Very expensive. I bought my Bushmaster AR15 for 800 bucks. Feel sorry for the folks that missed the boat.

Dr. EBR
03-05-2005, 4:35 PM
So now there's conflicting info on the Vulcan receiver. The other thread said it was forged. Info in this thread says it's cast.

Still trying to picture how the mag catch is fully functional on the Vulcan, yet the mag itself doesn't budge. I figured the mag catch spring was replaced with a rod that doesn't allow for depression. Guess that's not the case.

1919_4_ME
03-05-2005, 5:05 PM
Wow!
$1600 clams for a frikin Bushmaster!Why are they $800 more than the regular ones? http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

03-05-2005, 5:15 PM
Couple things:

1. Who handles the warranty on the welded-up Bushies? Bushmaster, or the modifier? I know Bushmaster was originally reluctant to get into the CA-legal AR business (I asked them), so it surprises me that they willingly allow this to happen. Their issue was the ever-expanding concern of "liability issues", so it strikes me as odd. In fact, they originally told me that they (Bushmaster) didn't feel that the FAB10 was indeed actually legal under CA law, in spite of CADOJ's approval. http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

2. I remember that the originators of the FAB10 expressly insisted that if the fixed mag body need be removed, it be riveted back in place after whatever maintenance was performed. They explained this as necessary to satisfy CADOJ. It's odd that the modified Bushies don't have a similar "safeguard". The point was that it was possible that the firearm could be construed as possessing a detachable magazine otherwise (this in spite of the fact that it has no real floorplate). Weird.

C.G.
03-05-2005, 7:20 PM
My heart dropped when I saw them at the show; till I saw the prices. The prices sobered me up, basically they are adding over $500 dollars to the Bushies. I looked at the Vulcan lower at Sonoma, I thought it looked pretty cheap and ended up buying FAB 10 lower from Sonoma for, ouch, $300, plus DROS and tax, sight unseen. I hope I won't be sorry about the FAB 10, but at least I'll spend a lot less building exactly what I want. Supposedly, the Fab 10 design has changed slightly, I'll report when I get it.

TonyNorCal
03-05-2005, 8:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by maxicon:
For a bit of price perspective, I spoke to someone at Fab 10 recently, and they're talking about the possibility of only selling assembled lowers to avoid perceived problems with people botching the assembly or using low-quality parts.

The informal price they gave me for direct sales to an end-user was $425 assembled with no stock, and add $100 for a stock.

This wasn't an official price or anything, but that was the word. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was quoted $450 for a completed lower with an A2 stock.

Stevil
03-05-2005, 8:22 PM
I took a look at the Vulcan at the Cal Expo gun show, I was told the mag is glued in place with some kind of resin/epoxy/glass glue! You have to wonder how easy that would be to remove?

TonyNorCal
03-05-2005, 8:23 PM
Thanks for the reports Ted. Out of the current crop of offerings the Bushmaster is far and away the highest quality. However, the prices are rather sobering. GB would likely turn a greater profit if they reduced the price to say $1,100 for a base rifle and relied more on the increased sales volume. I agree that it's probable they will begin offering stripped and/or completed lowers at some point. I spoke with a gun store owner recently (who is currently a Vulcan and DSA dealer). He's talked with DSA's president about offering a CA legal version of their .223 rifle. Evidently, the president is interested. It seems that the floodgates are creaking and within a year or so here we may have a number of options and the corresponding rationalization of prices that comes via competition. I wouldn't purchase a Bushmaster for $1,500 - $1,600 now knowing I might really regret that cash outlay by years end.

Dr. EBR
03-06-2005, 12:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stevil:
I took a look at the Vulcan at the Cal Expo gun show, I was told the mag is glued in place with some kind of resin/epoxy/glass glue! You have to wonder how easy that would be to remove? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, and when some poor guy is out shooting one of these and the mag falls out... whoops, he's commited a felony.

fastmanusa
03-06-2005, 8:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BRD:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stevil:
I took a look at the Vulcan at the Cal Expo gun show, I was told the mag is glued in place with some kind of resin/epoxy/glass glue! You have to wonder how easy that would be to remove? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, and when some poor guy is out shooting one of these and the mag falls out... whoops, he's commited a felony. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah I am sure thats whats going to happen.

maxicon
03-06-2005, 9:41 AM
Sounds like we're going to need some user reports on the Vulcan to get all the info.

For now, if I had to make the choice today, I'd probably buy Fab 10, since their reputation is decent so far, and you can build a complete rifle for around $800 ($460 for an inexpensive, good quality JT kit, and $325 or so for a stripped lower).

Compare that to the astronomical prices for the modified Bushies (and you could stick a Bushie upper on a Fab 10 lower for $400, plus a bolt/carrier/CH for another $150, to get the same quality if you want for $1000, based on Tony's quote). You can also get good prices on used stuff over at arfcom's equipment exchange.

Vulcan is less expensive, but their quality reputation is just too spotty for me to take a chance on.

I believe the Vulcan ruling will blow the doors open on higher quality lowers that can be easily converted back if you move to Free America, and other vendors will take the opportunity to offer them for lower prices.

Competition is great. It's about time!

03-06-2005, 12:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by maxicon:
Competition is great. It's about time! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree about competition, but I welcome the day when we move our desires forward and beyond to a less "AR-centric" design of .223 rifles. I can understand the popularity as it is a self sustaining phenomena. However, if the market indicates that "we" here in California only want an AR-based rifle, "we" likely will never see anything that deviates from the weld-ups, etc. that manufacturers are going to dump into this state. It's an easy way to treat the symptom of our restrictive laws and bypass what would otherwise be the natural evolution of CA-friendly rifles.

Besides, even Stoner knew the AR was not perfect.
http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

shooterx10
03-06-2005, 6:03 PM
I agree that the Vulcan Arms KA-legal receiver is overpriced. A stripped run of the mill AR-15 outside of this Commie State runs around $100. How much more does it cost to weld on a metal plate on the bottom of the mag well to block it?

But then again, they are selling to the market of this state and can charge whatever they want. We definitely need competition from the other AR-15 manufacturers to lower the price.

MaceWindu
03-06-2005, 6:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DingChavez:
BUSHMASTER- M4A3 Type Carbine (16", 1:9 Twist) with 4-Position

Stock: $1649



BUSHMASTER- M4A2 Type Carbine (16", 1:9 Twist) w/Fixed Carry

Handle and 4-Position Stock: $1549



BUSHMASTER- AR15A3 Type Rifle (20", 1:9) w/Fixed Stock: $1649



BUSHMASTER- AR15A2 Type Rifle (20", 1:9) w/Fixed Carry Handle and

Fixed Stock: $1549

Very expensive. I bought my Bushmaster AR15 for 800 bucks. Feel sorry for the folks that missed the boat. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So let me get this straight? You have to cough up $1.7K for a neutered AR-15? HA....double HA http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

No thanks, I'll stick to this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v188/Triggerman/LOADED.jpg

...and this...:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v320/MaceWindu/digital5.jpg

I got a %*!!#* load of 20 rounders BEFORE the ban too http://www.calguns.net/laughroll.gif...

M-A-G F-E-D!!

MaceWindu

03-06-2005, 6:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MaceWindu:

So let me get this straight? You have to cough up $1.7K for a neutered AR-15? HA....double HA http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

No thanks, I'll stick to this:
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I tried to put some .223 through an M1A once. Damned if it didn't work.

Apples and oranges.

MaceWindu
03-06-2005, 6:38 PM
$1.7K though...c'mon man, you gotta see that they are trying to screw you..but good. The Scout pictured above is just a FEW inches longer than my buddies AR, about a 1.75 lbs heavier....did a side to side comparison...and the metal butt plate has been replaced with a rubber. Last, the rear loop for the sling has been machined down because the sling I use does not need it (weight reduction).

It's very light for an M1A...

I would rather have a modified Mini-14 (heavy barrel installed) since the main issue with the Mini-14 was the barrel. The action is proven for durability and reliability. The skinny barrel was the problem.

I also have (4) 20 rounders (FACTORY http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) I was able to acquire years ago.

JMHO...$1.7K is way OVERPRICED....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v188/Triggerman/ASI4001.bmp

MaceWindu

tleary
03-06-2005, 8:57 PM
I'm gonna have to go the other way and try out the vulcan. The reason I never got a FAB10 was because of the fact it looked "Neutered" At least they were smart enough to figure out that if you have a 20 round mag body and attach it permanantly that it looks a hell of a lot more like a real AR than a welded up mag well. Now if only they used a 30rd GI body rather than that 20 rd one. Why didn't the guys with the Bushies do this either. I saw those bushies an the dicoloration on them was bad. Looked orange rather than black. I wonder if that weakens the metal any? If those guys offer one up similar to the vulcan I would buy one. That being said I'll give a report on the vulcan when I get it. I got a deal on it that was better than a FAB 10. Having something that actually looks like it has a mag was the criteria I was looking for.

LongBch_SigP226
03-06-2005, 9:27 PM
MaceWindu, nice camo jobs on your M1As.

BigAL
03-07-2005, 5:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PRKnative:
Now if only they used a 30rd GI body rather than that 20 rd one. Why didn't the guys with the Bushies do this either. Having something that actually looks like it has a mag was the criteria I was looking for. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Having a 30 round mag body will protrude low enough that it can adversely affect shooting from the prone position. If you can't actually have 30 rounds in the mag, I see no reason to make the mag that long other than the "look".

Turbinator
03-07-2005, 6:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BigAL:
Having a 30 round mag body will protrude low enough that it can adversely affect shooting from the prone position. If you can't actually have 30 rounds in the mag, I see no reason to make the mag that long other than the "look". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your case options will also be limited, as having the 30 round mag body installed (but pinned at 10) would make it tougher to put into some gun cases, etc. Just a hassle, overall. However, I do agree that the looks would be better..

Turby

03-07-2005, 12:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MaceWindu:
$1.7K though...c'mon man, you gotta see that they are trying to screw you..but good. The Scout pictured above is just a FEW inches longer than my buddies AR, about a 1.75 lbs heavier....did a side to side comparison...and the metal butt plate has been replaced with a rubber. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I forgot the "winkey smiley" in my post.
I wasn't making a serious argument, Mace. The point is, folks are obsessed with what they can't own and the AR is the most talked about rifle here IMO. Some will accept no substitute so the M1A (as is the Mini 14) is really a moot point on this thread.

..and, I'll just disgaree on the Mini 14. The problems transcend the barrel length and it's diameter, IMNSHO, (I own one, and I'm not just randomly basing the Ruger.)

MaceWindu
03-07-2005, 9:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Basura Blanca:

..and, I'll just disgaree on the Mini 14. The problems transcend the barrel length and it's diameter, IMNSHO, (I own one, and I'm not just randomly basing the Ruger.) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm....well that Mini is, let say "not typical"...

-Douglas Heavy Barrel
-1 inch diameter from the action to the end of the bore
-Screw bedded
-Enlarged gas block
-Trigger job 3.5 lbs.

...other goodies too...das not your run of the mill mini...

http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

MaceWindu

ivanimal
03-07-2005, 9:28 PM
My mini cost me 350 bucks and has killed a million sqirrell and its share of coyote. Boy do I feel like I saved a bundle on stuff I dont need! http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ivanimal
03-07-2005, 9:51 PM
I guess if you're gonna spend the money to get what you want or in this retaded state, what you can have. Its all good. 1700 bucks buys
a lot of hunting rifles, or maybe just a down payment on a good german scope. Pick your addiction.

imported_Skammy
03-08-2005, 1:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 1919_4_ME:
Wow!
$1600 clams for a frikin Bushmaster!Why are they $800 more than the regular ones? http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tig welding is magic http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

people love over charging for welding

HEWA195@CS.COM
03-08-2005, 7:49 AM
No ,the welding won't adversely affect the receiver strength. Especially at the bottom of the mag well. If a weld is done correctly it shouldn't break. Unlike steel ,aluminum welds are somewhat weaker because you are basically "casting" at the weld joint. Steel parts form a homogeneous bond. Has anyone done any testing to see how much wear is put on the hinge/pin areas over many reloadings? I would think that it would be a problem with the "flip the top" to load designs.

Dr. EBR
03-08-2005, 9:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stevil:
I took a look at the Vulcan at the Cal Expo gun show, I was told the mag is glued in place with some kind of resin/epoxy/glass glue! You have to wonder how easy that would be to remove? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Vulcan Arms got back to me and said it was actually pinned in place. It's a "blind pin" so you probably won't be able to see it -- just like the pins that hold muzzle brakes in place. I'll bet if you take off the magazine floor plate you'll be able to locate where the pin enters the mag body.

A local dealer is getting some in this friday, and I'm curious as hell to examine one.

Stevil
03-08-2005, 9:48 PM
It maybe pinned in place but if you look inside the magwell from the bottom it's also surrounded on all sides by some kind of white glue.

spendbabyspend
03-10-2005, 1:44 PM
I just had a talk with Dmitri about this GB Sales dealership thing that was mentioned earlier. He said I was the first to mention this rumor to him. Unless he wants to keep it a secret until it's a done deal looks like this ain't happening.

Oh well. They look nice, but he says they aren't legal. This whole gray area thing is really *** me off.

only10rds
03-24-2005, 7:27 PM
Price of this CA Bushmaster is too high for a neutered AR15. Do you think Bushmaster will ever sell just the lower? Why didn't they do this in the first place?


__________________________________________________ ________________

http://nbox00.tripod.com

BigAL
03-24-2005, 7:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by only10rds:
Price of this CA Bushmaster is too high for a neutered AR15. Do you think Bushmaster will ever sell just the lower? Why didn't they do this in the first place?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bushmaster cant even keep up with orders for non-neutered ARs. So I don't think they would be too interested in making a CA special lower at least until things cool down.

ubreal
05-12-2005, 8:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">City Arms </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I live in the bay area where is city of arms at.

stillbigmac
05-13-2005, 8:10 AM
I've been selling Vulcan lowers like there going out of style. The mag is blind pinned under the magazine release. They are not glued in place.

maxicon
05-14-2005, 1:34 PM
What are you getting for them? I've got nearly enough pieces to build another AR, and it's starting to seem like a good idea!

C.G.
05-14-2005, 6:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I just left Irvington Arms about an hour ago: $265 stripped (Except for a factory mag catch). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
$250 at Sonoma Firearms; they are usually at every fun show.

C.G.
05-14-2005, 7:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You pay about $15 bucks for show admission and parking. Then you have to get it in your hands 10 days later. Options include: waiting for the next gun show </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That is exactly what I do. Since I live out in the boonies anyway, I pick up cheap ammo at the gun show and see if there is anything new under the sun at the same time and don't mind waiting a month or so to get it at the next show, where I pick up more ammo, etc. But I guess for the people that live in the City that wouldn't work.

Mr331
05-15-2005, 7:33 AM
Avoid the Vulcan lower with the shorter 10rd mag. The origonal Vulcan had a 20rd mag that was capped at 10rds. The DOJ had some issues with it and wanted some changes to it. In an effort to keep their product on the street, they cut off the "excess" of the 20 rd mags to make them look like 10 rounders. They cut the bottom at at odd angle requiring them to trim the "non-tilting" follower. Well, now it tilts. You can spin it 90deg. IN THE MAG! They have gone back to the 20rd mag capped at 10rds. The follower in both is green but differ in size to the "green" followers found in U.S.G.I. mags. Due to its goofy size, it won't allow the bolt catch to work after the last shot.

Mr331
05-15-2005, 7:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Technical Ted:
Since I know CA Penal Code 12276 states that a semi-auto centerfire rifle with internal or fixed mag can only have a capacity of 10 rds, whether the fixed magazine looks like a 20 round or a Beta C, to me it's still a 10 round magazine. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Too bad DOJ didn't feel that way. That's why they sent the Vulcan back to make some mods for the 10 rd mag that looks like a 20 rd. They were not satisfied with the way the mag was fixed for 10rds.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Technical Ted:
There's no such thing as a "USGI" anti-tilt green follower for 20 round magazines. Never has been. The green followers were implemented in the early 1990's. 20 round mags were phased out of military use in the late 1970's. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was comparing the green follower in the Vulcan to the ones found in a "USGI" mag (USGI=30rds). The size of the Vulcan follower is simply different (smaller front to back). Thats why the bolt catch won't work after the last round.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Technical Ted:
If you cut the anti-tilt legs a 30 rd green follower to use it in the 20, you've basically made it useless. Half my 20 rounders have the original alloy follower and half have the "newer" black plastic follower. I can confidently say that in the last seven years I haven't had a tilting problem with any of the mags that are in use. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly the point in my post. When Bushmaster makes 10rd mags they make them longer to fit the standard green follower, the same one found in USGI mags. Thats why the Bushmaster mag is longer than the Vulcan 10 or the closed mag well of a FAB10. Vulcan mags start as 30rd mags then they cut them down to about the size of a 20rd mag and weld the floor plate on. When DOJ had some issues with the way Vulcan "fixed" the mag for 10rds they just cut them down to about the size of a 10rd mag. They didn't account for the leg length of the green follower and trimmed it, hence my FTF issues. Since Vulcan is back to attaching a "20rd size" mag capped at 10rds (with the extra room for the green follower) this is a moot point. I just want to make sure no one makes the mistake of buying one with the shorter mag.

Now I know where you got the name "Technical Ted"!!

LOL, J/K Ted. just wanted to make sure we were on the same page.

C.G.
05-15-2005, 7:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">When Bushmaster makes 10rd mags they make them longer to fit the standard green follower, the same one found in USGI mags. Thats why the Bushmaster mag is longer than the Vulcan 10 or the closed mag well of a FAB10. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Probably why I've never had problems with the Bushmaster 10 rounders.