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chsk9
09-26-2009, 12:34 AM
I was talking about OLLs to a guy and explaining about the difference between bullet button with 10 round mag vs. MM grip/U-15 stock, featureless with legal hi-cap mags. He asked "what is MORE legal?"

I'm not sure I know if one has more legal opinion etc in favor of it... do you?


[I'll put on the asbestos suit now...]

Norccer
09-26-2009, 12:43 AM
probably the latter, tbh! I am all drugged up on vicodin right now so can't explain.

technique
09-26-2009, 12:49 AM
While both are legal....

MMG/U15/featureless stuff is my answer.

leelaw
09-26-2009, 12:51 AM
Both are legal.

The U-15/MMG builds would be easier to explain to a lay person.

AndrewMendez
09-26-2009, 12:54 AM
Legal: le-gal: Not illegal.

five.five-six
09-26-2009, 12:56 AM
probably the vulcan, it got one of the few DOJ approval letters

supersonic
09-26-2009, 1:17 AM
Either LEGAL or ILLEGAL , no other degrees in between. Period. End of discussion. One woman can't get "more pregnant" than another.;)

paratroop
09-26-2009, 2:13 AM
Either LEGAL or ILLEGAL , no other degrees in between. Period. End of discussion. One woman can't get "more pregnant" than another.;)

Haha. thats funny, the first thinng i thought was dead or more dead, but i like yours more. but i just saw on the news a woman who concieved again after she was already pregnant. and im not talking twins. so maybe, in fact, a woman can get "more pregnant"

Major Pal
09-26-2009, 2:18 AM
Haha. thats funny, the first thinng i thought was dead or more dead, but i like yours more. but i just saw on the news a woman who concieved again after she was already pregnant. and im not talking twins. so maybe, in fact, a woman can get "more pregnant"

I just saw that to! I thought they were just messing with people. I wonder if the "babies daddys are the same"

five.five-six
09-26-2009, 2:19 AM
well legal and illegal is decided by a judge, and whether or not to bring it to a judge is decided by a DA, and whether or not to bring it to a DA is decided by a city worker with a gun...

IMO the ability to convince said city worker can save you a lot of hassle



no disrespect to the majority of LEOs, but we have all run across the ones that.... well.... maybe be doing something else for a living

Major Pal
09-26-2009, 2:31 AM
well legal and illegal is decided by a judge, and whether or not to bring it to a judge is decided by a DA, and whether or not to bring it to a DA is decided by a city worker with a gun...

IMO the ability to convince said city worker can save you a lot of hassle



no disrespect to the majority of LEOs, but we have all run across the ones that.... well.... maybe be doing something else for a living

Very true, its all about interpretation, if a cop wants to be a ***** he can take you in and detain you and your firearm. All LEO's that are my friends say that they would never do this to people who act safe and responcible, although there is always some dumb person out there, and they said they would be quick to take them in and lock them up and let the DA deal with it. for example we had a offlist AK or a SKS dont remember go full auto at my range and even though it seemed to be a accident it took a lawyer to get it confirmed that it was a offlist and legal.

chsk9
09-26-2009, 8:05 AM
Thanks- I'll advise the featureless mm/u-15 would be the easier to explain option.

StevieC
09-26-2009, 9:01 AM
I'm reading this... http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/regagunfaqs.php#3

and while I'm not an attorney, it seems pretty clear from just that document alone that any AR15 or AK "type" rifle is banned in California

if that document is outdated no longer valid, why is it still on their site?

shark92651
09-26-2009, 9:07 AM
Stevie, the "series" language has been mooted by the Harrot decision. They have to be "named" by both make and model and put on the list. Subsequent legislation now prevents the DOJ from adding to the list. We are stuck with the current list of named weapons, and everything else can be legal as long as you don't build a category 3 AW, by violating the evil feature configuration. Keep reading and searching as there is TONS of information on how we got to the current state of affairs on this website.

StevieC
09-26-2009, 9:10 AM
Stevie, the "series" language has been mooted by the Harrot decision. They have to be "named" by both make and model and put on the list. Subsequent legislation now prevents the DOJ from adding to the list. We are stuck with the current list of named weapons, and everything else can be legal as long as you don't build a category 3 AW, by violating the evil feature configuration.

thanks man
I'm still worried about it a bit though

I think I'll build a featureless AR just to be on the safer side

Fate
09-26-2009, 9:58 AM
if that document is outdated no longer valid, why is it still on their site?
Because F.U.D. (fear, uncertainty, doubt) is an effective means of controlling the masses when the law is no longer backing your agenda.

Fjold
09-26-2009, 9:58 AM
Get at least one of each. That way you're "more legal".

dieselpower
09-26-2009, 11:00 AM
IIRC the U-15 is the only option that has been questioned in court and won. No other "item" has had that happen yet, of course no other "item" has even been to court yet.

BTW, just because the DOJ has issued a nod of approval to a weapon or design doesn't mean its legal...you are giving the DOJ more power then they have...stop it.

freonr22
09-26-2009, 11:03 AM
[I'll put on the asbestos suit now...]


I am certified to do asbestos abatement :D

technique
09-26-2009, 11:41 AM
IIRC the U-15 is the only option that has been questioned in court and won. No other "item" has had that happen yet, of course no other "item" has even been to court yet.



The u-15 is officially NOT a "thumbhole stock".

Redchevyman
09-26-2009, 11:46 AM
Either LEGAL or ILLEGAL , no other degrees in between. Period. End of discussion. One woman can't get "more pregnant" than another.;)
Ask the Octomom (more pregnant):eek:

Futurecollector
09-26-2009, 11:49 AM
Ask the Octomom (more pregnant):eek:

LMAO

StevieC
09-26-2009, 12:07 PM
IIRC the U-15 is the only option that has been questioned in court and won. No other "item" has had that happen yet, of course no other "item" has even been to court yet.

BTW, just because the DOJ has issued a nod of approval to a weapon or design doesn't mean its legal...you are giving the DOJ more power then they have...stop it.

The u-15 is officially NOT a "thumbhole stock".

and it's THE ugliest stock in existence :D

technique
09-26-2009, 12:14 PM
and it's THE ugliest stock in existence :D

It ain't pretty thats for sure!!!! Its also on the heavy side.....and expensive in comparison the the other featureless types.

supersonic
09-26-2009, 12:46 PM
we had a offlist AK or a SKS dont remember go full auto at my range and even though it seemed to be a accident it took a lawyer to get it confirmed that it was a offlist and legal.

Wait....What????? Does anyone have any documentation on this??? I have never heard of an actual court case in which a previously assumed NFA/Class III gun was found to be a legal OLL!!!!!! Linky???

Ask the Octomom (more pregnant):eek:

Heh, yeah I understand the joke. But really, it's still just pregnant. Just like if you were caught with 10 reg'd AWs, it would still be "as illegal" as being pinched with 1. In the same respect, on a featureless build, if you were to put a FH on it, you would have an (illegal) assault weapon. If you added a telestock & a VFG & a pistoi grip, it would still be ("just") illegal.

lorax3
09-26-2009, 12:59 PM
I think it would depend on who was examining the rifle. We know as a fact from various DOJ letters regarding the definitions and requirements of pistol grips.

If actual written 'official' proof had to be somehow generated then it would be easier to demonstrate how a MMG does not meet the definition of a pistol grip. However I see this as a more likely route in a court or when looked at by a DA. An unaware DA may be given the run around when calling the DOJ on bullet button legality. Although said DA will just need to read the PC, but perhaps they are lazy.

'On the street' however may be a different story. AFAIK LEO's has been issued more training memo's regarding the bullet button as how it negates 'evil features'.

So in the scenario in which my weapon was examined by a cop on the beat I would much rather have a BB installed as opposed to a MMG build with a 30rd magazine. As said LEO has received more bullet button memo's.

Of course at the end of the day if you rifle is legal, then it is legal. So choose the route that works for you.

MonsterMan
09-26-2009, 1:13 PM
and it's THE ugliest stock in existence :D

Hey, I thought my MMG was the ugliest thing around. :p

soopafly
09-26-2009, 1:29 PM
Get at least one of each. That way you're "more legal".

^^^the best answer

Many here have multiples of each, so they are "EVEN MORE legal" ;)

to the OP: going 1)featureless or 2)non-detachable 10 round mag nets you equally legal status under the law

StevieC
09-26-2009, 1:31 PM
Hey, I thought my MMG was the ugliest thing around. :p

actually, yours is unadulterated sexiness http://www.liveruckus.com/forums/images/smilies/love.gif

:p

five.five-six
09-28-2009, 12:52 AM
and it's THE ugliest stock in existence :D

I beg to differ

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/5120/img3310ek.jpg

Acorn556
09-28-2009, 6:44 AM
Depends on the jury. I'd say 30 round detachable magazine with monsterman/duraglock grip is less legal to one jury and a fixed magazine (for whatever reason) is to another. I see the requirement of a tool to remove magazines as holding up in court much stronger than some grip that allows you to shoot your rifle the same but use more bullets in California.

JagerTroop
09-28-2009, 6:49 AM
Either LEGAL or ILLEGAL , no other degrees in between. Period. End of discussion. One woman can't get "more pregnant" than another.;)

well put. It either is or it isn't.

Darklyte27
09-28-2009, 6:55 AM
Legal is legal you cant get more legal than legal.

Fate
09-28-2009, 10:38 AM
I beg to differ

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/5120/img3310ek.jpg

What do you know? You can't even hang your American flag right. :p

JagerTroop
09-28-2009, 10:46 AM
What do you know? You can't even hang your American flag right. :p
:iagree:
8. When the flag is displayed in a manner other than by being flown from a staff, it should be displayed flat, whether indoors or out. When displayed either horizontally or vertically against a wall, the union should be uppermost and to the flag's own right, that is, to the observer's left. When displayed in a window it should be displayed in the same way, that is with the union or blue field to the left of the observer in the street. When festoons, rosettes or drapings are desired, bunting of blue, white and red should be used, but never the flag.

Flag Rules and Regs (http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagetiq.html)

3GunFunShooter
09-28-2009, 3:53 PM
I have the U-15 stock, with a mag release that can be tighten down to make it not release. When I transport it to the range I put in a 10 rounder and tighten it dowm. Overkill, yes I would rather not take a chance with some LEO that does not know the laws. I also have print outs from Calguns in my rifle case too.

stix213
09-28-2009, 4:13 PM
Either LEGAL or ILLEGAL , no other degrees in between. Period. End of discussion. One woman can't get "more pregnant" than another.;)

While I agree that Legal = Legal = Legal.... I think Octomom was "more pregnant" than most :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadya_Suleman

stix213
09-28-2009, 4:18 PM
I have the U-15 stock, with a mag release that can be tighten down to make it not release. When I transport it to the range I put in a 10 rounder and tighten it dowm. Overkill, yes I would rather not take a chance with some LEO that does not know the laws. I also have print outs from Calguns in my rifle case too.

I don't understand your "tighten down" idea when using the U-15. So you made it require a tool to remove?

You just better not ever tighten down a high cap mag in there because you will have created an illegal assault weapon under CA law. Better to not even be able to tighten down mags if you are running featureless IMO.

five.five-six
09-28-2009, 5:13 PM
What do you know? You can't even hang your American flag right. :p

funny story

it was set up so that when i opened the garage door, it hung down to be displayed outside, however on a real windy day I had taped it down to keep it from blowing off... and it just stayed that war :(


back to the u15, that is a good looking rifle

dieselpower
09-28-2009, 9:14 PM
I have the U-15 stock, with a mag release that can be tighten down to make it not release. When I transport it to the range I put in a 10 rounder and tighten it dowm. Overkill, yes I would rather not take a chance with some LEO that does not know the laws. I also have print outs from Calguns in my rifle case too.


As someone else said..REMOVE your mag lock if you have a U-15 stock. Don't use both a featureless build and fixed mag build in one firearm. make sure you don't have any features, then remove the mag lock and put in a regular one.

Major Pal
09-29-2009, 12:39 AM
[QUOTE=supersonic;3118885]Wait....What????? Does anyone have any documentation on this??? I have never heard of an actual court case in which a previously assumed NFA/Class III gun was found to be a legal OLL!!!!!! Linky???

I dont remember all the specifics but the guy who built it didnt know what he was doing, oh and he would spray CLP all over the action. It wasnt a full auto gun but a malfunction. When he pulled the trigger on the first shot the rifle uncontrollably dumped the whole mag like a full auto. It was at a sherif ran range that just happened to have a bunch of cops there at the time. The kid was not ready for it and the rifle jumped all over the place and ended up on the ground. After it was found to be a malfunction and not a full auto gun the charges were dropped and the rifle was given back to the kid with the agreement that he would take it to a gunsmith.

xxdabroxx
09-29-2009, 10:34 AM
Hey, I thought my MMG was the ugliest thing around. :p

A close second. :43: